I find Goku to be the worst character in this show

[HeroR]

I can only remember Goku forgetting the senzu and the Mafuba jar seal as the questionable narrative choices in regards to Goku's intellect. Other than that, Goku was fine for the vast majority of the arc and reacted appropriately to situations where his back was against the wall with Goku Black and Merged Zamasu. He especially went into a panic when Zeno was about to erase Zamasu and Future Trunks' multiverse.

But Goku didn't forget the jar. He thought Vegeta had it since he was searching for Trunks the moment he got out of the Time Machine.

[Asura]

I can only remember Goku forgetting the senzu and the Mafuba jar seal as the questionable narrative choices in regards to Goku's intellect. Other than that, Goku was fine for the vast majority of the arc and reacted appropriately to situations where his back was against the wall with Goku Black and Merged Zamasu. He especially went into a panic when Zeno was about to erase Zamasu and Future Trunks' multiverse.

But Goku didn't forget the jar. He thought Vegeta had it since he was searching for Trunks the moment he got out of the Time Machine.

Lol how can you pass the blame onto Vegeta? Goku was the one who brought the jar into the time machine, why would he expect Vegeta to have it?

[HeroR]

Lol how can you pass the blame onto Vegeta? Goku was the one who brought the jar into the time machine, why would he expect Vegeta to have it?

Don't put words in my mouth. I just said that Goku didn't forget it. He thought Vegeta had it. Why wouldn't Vegeta grabbed it on the way out since Goku was out of the Time Machine before him. Even then, he didn't forget it as some fans keep insisting.

Goku's flippant attitude in the last few episodes has been downright insufferable. He's always been a fighting junkie with poor judgement when it comes to strong opponents, but he did show some concern for people getting caught in the crossfire. Now he sounds like a broken record who can only say WAKU WAKU. Trillions of lives are on the line and I don't think he could give less of a fuck if he tried. He didn't even seem to comprehend why Toppo didn't want to shake his hand.

No one else gives a shit either and even Gohan is excited by fighting. No one cares about the multiverse or billions of people dying, only saving their own ass. So why is Goku expecting to care?

[Asura]

Lol how can you pass the blame onto Vegeta? Goku was the one who brought the jar into the time machine, why would he expect Vegeta to have it?

Don't put words in my mouth. I just said that Goku didn't forget it. He thought Vegeta had it. Why wouldn't Vegeta grabbed it on the way out since Goku was out of the Time Machine before him. Even then, he didn't forget it as some fans keep insisting.

Why would Vegeta be expected to grab on to something that Goku brought? It was Goku's responsibility alone, and whether he forgot or not was irrelevant, the point was that he was an idiot to not grab the pot, and Goku isn't usually so stupid about something so serious.

[HeroR]

Why would Vegeta be expected to grab on to something that Goku brought? It was Goku's responsibility alone, and whether he forgot or not was irrelevant, the point was that he was an idiot to not grab the pot, and Goku isn't usually so stupid about something so serious.

Because Goku left the Time Machine to look for Trunks, who they didn't know was dead or alive. They also wasn't expecting Black to suddenly teleport to them and wreck the Time Machine.

No, it was both of their responsibility, not Goku's alone. And thinking someone else was going to grab something isn't stupid or idiotic since it happens all the time in real life. So if we're going to blame Goku for 'forgetting' the urn, it's on Vegeta too since he didn't grab it either and only remembered after the Time Machine got destroyed.

[Freeza9000]

Lol how can you pass the blame onto Vegeta? Goku was the one who brought the jar into the time machine, why would he expect Vegeta to have it?

Don't put words in my mouth. I just said that Goku didn't forget it. He thought Vegeta had it. Why wouldn't Vegeta grabbed it on the way out since Goku was out of the Time Machine before him. Even then, he didn't forget it as some fans keep insisting.

Why would Vegeta be expected to grab on to something that Goku brought? It was Goku's responsibility alone, and whether he forgot or not was irrelevant, the point was that he was an idiot to not grab the pot, and Goku isn't usually so stupid about something so serious.

So apparently people forgetting important things make them idiots? Even a dude that is an apparent expert in paleontology or something can accidentally leave their own important documents at home.

[HeroR]

So apparently people forgetting important things make them idiots? Even a dude that is an apparent expert in paleontology or something can accidentally leave their own important documents at home.

According to this fan base, Goku getting motion sickness is a sign of him being a moron. Because smart people don't get motion sickness, or something.

[Miracles]

He's a seriously unlikeable character tbh. Selfish, childish and idiotic. He's always been like this abandoning his family to train and risking the world for a fight. It's not the first time he's done this.

Let's Vegeta (who tried to blow up earth) live, let's freeza (mass genocidal tyrant) live and stands back to see how mirai trunks does against him because he's curious, gives cell (biomech murderer) a senzu bean and throws his pacifist son into the fight, threatens supreme kai's life because he wants to fight knowing Buu will be revived because of it and doesn't waste Buu right away since he had SSJ3 hidden in his ass the whole arc. I'm sure I'm missing a few and that just in Z.

Horrible character. Saving the world just happens to be a coincidence it seems. Honestly should have stayed dead. I'm glad everyones finally seeing how shit a character he is. It's about damn time

YES...YES...I don't know which I enjoy more.
Goku's untypical character or your tears over this fact!

[TekTheNinja]

For me personally, he was getting on my nerves. "I'm getting excited!" times infinium. When Beerus yelled at Goku & Gohan to basically just shut the fuck up already, that represented quite well how I felt.

Still hasn't done much to alleviate the "Goku is evil" narrative. With each passing episode you just see him caring less and less about anyone.

It's a shame he didn't rip his tongue out so we wouldn't have to hear him talk anymore.

I hope it's not just bad writing but instead something that'll be brought up later by everyone.

Either way, when Vegeta is becoming the sensible good guy while Goku's the flippant mentally handicapped lunatic, there's a problem with this. Not hating on Vegeta's characterization since it's fantastic, just saying goku shouldn't be acting like cell arc Vegeta, but with mental retardation.

I'm torn about the characterization of Goku in this arc honestly. I know that he was never supposed to be outright heroic and he's jeopardized the safety of the universe multiple times but he did have some reason and some moments of selflessness all things considered. Hell he decided to stay dead after the Cell saga because he felt like his sheer presence attracted powerful threats (then again you could say he just wanted to stay to fight dead powerful guys in the Other World). Now he's flat out told how he screwed everyone and he's all "yeah, idc".
I dunno what to think of this, I've heard this wild theory that Goku's becoming more bloodthirsty because his head injury he got as a baby is wearing off and that would be a fun twist.

This also leaves the door open for Goku to know something that we don't. Maybe him, Zeno and the Grand Priest are in on this. We got a foreshadowing of how far Goku would go to get people to fight him seriously back then with Hit. This could easily be the case at the end of the tournament.

I highly think reserving your opinions of Goku until the end of the arc would make some of these people complaining sound less foolish if this turns out to be true.

Except I think that would be an anticlimactic shitty way to end the arc, so for me it's a lose-lose situation.

He also needs to lose people close to him and this time for good. It's time we start losing major z warriors.

Can't happen. For whatever stupid-ass reason, Super takes place before EoZ, so no one present there can die permanently. Still holding out hope that Super eventually timeskips and has the damn kids grow up and be relevant. Hell, can we get some sort of Uub related arc at some point? I seriously want that kid to get fleshed out. He's a husk of a character.

[sintzu]

Either way, when Vegeta is becoming the sensible good guy while Goku's the flippant mentally handicapped lunatic, there's a problem with this.

I fully agree with this, as much as I like Vegeta's character development, Goku should never look like a villain in comparison. It has been said time and again that Goku's character has the power to bring people to him, to make villains think twice about their actions so to see him like this is just sad.

I really hope there's more to it than bad writing.

[Lord Beerus]

Either way, when Vegeta is becoming the sensible good guy while Goku's the flippant mentally handicapped lunatic, there's a problem with this.

I fully agree with this, as much as I like Vegeta's character development, Goku should never look like a villain in comparison. It has been said time and again that Goku's character has the power to bring people to him, to make villains think twice about their actions so to see him like this is just sad.

I really hope there's more to it than bad writing.

Goku is not some messiah archetype who looks to bring out the good in people and uses the power of friendship and good deeds to sway others and make villains or other evil-doers consider their actions. He's a classical hero Hercules-esque character who's love for martial arts and becoming as strong as he can possibly become unintentionally creates unique bonds with other martial artists and characters.

[BlueBasilisk]

No one else gives a shit either and even Gohan is excited by fighting. No one cares about the multiverse or billions of people dying, only saving their own ass. So why is Goku expecting to care?

And that's a serious problem. The narrative is trying to have its cake and eat it too by showing how horrible the situation is through the other universes but it expects us to root for Goku and co who don't give a damn and are starting to come across as a bunch of unsympathetic douchebags.

[TheMikado]

No one else gives a shit either and even Gohan is excited by fighting. No one cares about the multiverse or billions of people dying, only saving their own ass. So why is Goku expecting to care?

And that's a serious problem. The narrative is trying to have its cake and eat it too by showing how horrible the situation is through the other universes but it expects us to root for Goku and co who don't give a damn and are starting to come across as a bunch of unsympathetic douchebags.

Exactly!!! The narrative itself isn't trying to excuse his behavior, they are actually going out of their way, out of universe to make Goku look this way. Literally the only people defending it and saying Goku shouldn't care are in utter denial and delusional. The writers are purposely making Goku appear this way and we still have people say, nah he's always been like this he shouldn't care at all. If you can't accept the reality of Goku purposely being framed as the villain how can we begin to believe anything else you make think isn't through a colored lens.
Gokus behavior is inexcusable and the show is going out of its way to drill it into it's stubborn fans heads. To be honest this is likely why we have the show we have... they probably couldn't portray this in a more subtle and realistic way because it would fly over the heads of half of its fan base at 30,000 ft.

[Saturnine]

He's a seriously unlikeable character tbh. Selfish, childish and idiotic. He's always been like this abandoning his family to train and risking the world for a fight. It's not the first time he's done this.

Let's Vegeta (who tried to blow up earth) live, let's freeza (mass genocidal tyrant) live and stands back to see how mirai trunks does against him because he's curious, gives cell (biomech murderer) a senzu bean and throws his pacifist son into the fight, threatens supreme kai's life because he wants to fight knowing Buu will be revived because of it and doesn't waste Buu right away since he had SSJ3 hidden in his ass the whole arc. I'm sure I'm missing a few and that just in Z.

Horrible character. Saving the world just happens to be a coincidence it seems. Honestly should have stayed dead. I'm glad everyones finally seeing how shit a character he is. It's about damn time

What you named doesn't make him a "shit character", it just means he isn't absolutely good and kind. Since when does that make characters less enjoyable? It's called nuancing, and last time I checked, anti-heroes and even villain protagonists get better responses from viewers/readers than completely pure and perfect characters, because they're more relatable and realistic. Not to mention interesting.

[Miracles]

Wow, the characteristics Goku is showing in this tournament or this series is nothing new. This is Goku from Dragonball. Back in the day, people praise this as bad@$$.
Not in this oversensitive, soft, fainthearted and always offended culture. If you don't portray yourself to their format, you are wrong. They don't know who they are suppose to be watching. Yet still complain about Kakarot, the pure blooded Saiyan, being himself. Guess this is what happens when people watch that boy scout Superman Goku in american dub instead of Japanese original Dragonball Z.

[SaiyanGod117]

Wow, the characteristics Goku is showing in this tournament or this series is nothing new. This is Goku from Dragonball. Back in the day, people praise this as bad@$$.
Not in this oversensitive, soft, fainthearted and always offended culture. If you don't portray yourself to their format, you are wrong. They don't know who they are suppose to be watching. Yet still complain about Kakarot, the pure blooded Saiyan, being himself. Guess this is what happens when people watch that boy scout Superman Goku in american dub instead of Japanese original Dragonball Z.

As of now, most people know Goku isn't post to be some righteous hero that isn't the problem. The problem is how Goku's characterization is being portrayed, you don't need to be a narrow minded asshole to be a badass.

[Lord Beerus]

No one else gives a shit either and even Gohan is excited by fighting. No one cares about the multiverse or billions of people dying, only saving their own ass. So why is Goku expecting to care?

And that's a serious problem. The narrative is trying to have its cake and eat it too by showing how horrible the situation is through the other universes but it expects us to root for Goku and co who don't give a damn and are starting to come across as a bunch of unsympathetic douchebags.

Exactly!!! The narrative itself isn't trying to excuse his behavior, they are actually going out of their way, out of universe to make Goku look this way. Literally the only people defending it and saying Goku shouldn't care are in utter denial and delusional. The writers are purposely making Goku appear this way and we still have people say, nah he's always been like this he shouldn't care at all. If you can't accept the reality of Goku purposely being framed as the villain how can we begin to believe anything else you make think isn't through a colored lens.
Gokus behavior is inexcusable and the show is going out of its way to drill it into it's stubborn fans heads. To be honest this is likely why we have the show we have... they probably couldn't portray this in a more subtle and realistic way because it would fly over the heads of half of its fan base at 30,000 ft.

They are in this tournament to save their own universe. Not anyone else's. Why should they give any kind of thought to several other universes that they have no personal connection ton and if they ultimately perish, nothing will change? They are looking to save themselves, while also getting into the thrill of the challenge. Just like they're done in the past. Is this unreasonable thinking? Yeah, it is. But it's nothing new. Hell, they've put they've their own world and universe in great peril in the past for shits and giggles on several occasions. And nobody seemed bothered by it then. People really need to accept the fact the Z-Fighters are not superheroes, they're are martial artists. I can't stress this enough.

Put it this way: if a cat has displayed that he is willing to shit in his own yard for fun, don't be surprised or shocked if he/she does it in other people's yard for fun, too.

Wow, the characteristics Goku is showing in this tournament or this series is nothing new. This is Goku from Dragonball. Back in the day, people praise this as bad@$$.
Not in this oversensitive, soft, fainthearted and always offended culture. If you don't portray yourself to their format, you are wrong. They don't know who they are suppose to be watching. Yet still complain about Kakarot, the pure blooded Saiyan, being himself. Guess this is what happens when people watch that boy scout Superman Goku in american dub instead of Japanese original Dragonball Z.

As of now, most people know Goku isn't post to be some righteous hero that isn't the problem. The problem is how Goku's characterization is being portrayed, you don't need to be a narrow minded asshole to be a badass.

Goku has been a narrow minded asshole since 1989.

[Kanassa]

And that's a serious problem. The narrative is trying to have its cake and eat it too by showing how horrible the situation is through the other universes but it expects us to root for Goku and co who don't give a damn and are starting to come across as a bunch of unsympathetic douchebags.

Exactly!!! The narrative itself isn't trying to excuse his behavior, they are actually going out of their way, out of universe to make Goku look this way. Literally the only people defending it and saying Goku shouldn't care are in utter denial and delusional. The writers are purposely making Goku appear this way and we still have people say, nah he's always been like this he shouldn't care at all. If you can't accept the reality of Goku purposely being framed as the villain how can we begin to believe anything else you make think isn't through a colored lens.
Gokus behavior is inexcusable and the show is going out of its way to drill it into it's stubborn fans heads. To be honest this is likely why we have the show we have... they probably couldn't portray this in a more subtle and realistic way because it would fly over the heads of half of its fan base at 30,000 ft.

They are in this tournament to save their own universe. Not anyone else's. Why should they give any kind of thought to several other universes that they have no personal connection ton and if they ultimately perish, nothing will change? They are looking to save themselves, while also getting into the thrill of the challenge. Just like they're done in the past. Is this unreasonable thinking? Yeah, it is. But it's nothing new. Hell, they've put they've their own world and universe in great peril in the past for shits and giggles on several occasions. And nobody seemed bothered by it then. People really need to accept the fact the Z-Fighters are not superheroes, they're are martial artists. I can't stress this enough.

Basically: Goku knows his Monty Python

It's a situation of ''We're fucked no matter what, best to find something to make it enjoyable''

[MajinMan]

These Goku complaints have driven me away from discussions for the past few weeks. I genuinely do not understand how people are just starting to realize what Goku's character is. Goku never did any if this on purpose. He never wanted Zeno to destroy the losing Universes. People like to antagonize him for literally every single thing he's done in the past few episodes, and it is really starting to get annoying. They finally have an arc that focuses on Goku's character and motives like we haven't seen in a long time, and people respond with "evil Goku," "Goku sucks now," "why doesn't Goku care about other Universes he has no attachment to," and my favorite one, "this isn't what DBZ Goku was like."

News flash, Goku let murderers get away just so he can fight them again. He thought it was a "waste" to kill Vegeta, the one responsible for the death of most of his close friends. He let Freeza live, the tyrant who commits genocide and runs an empire with an iron fist, not caring if he will ever go on to commit genocide again after the Namek incident. He gave Cell a senzu so Gohan could have a manly fight against him, while refusing to tell Gohan his brilliant plan. Willingly let Buu be revived and then put the trust on the little kids to kill the most dangerous opponent yet. These are all examples of him not caring about collateral damage and just focusing on the ones around him, just like what he's doing in the Universe Survival arc right now.

These are the reasons I absolutely love Goku as a character. Yes, I know that he can be selfless at times, like when he sacrificed himself against Cell and Raditz. Or how he set out to revive Upa's dad after he was killed by Tao Pai Pai. But what makes him truly unique and interesting is his approach to morals. He does not go by the regular moral codes that a normal person would. He is Son Goku, a truly unique character that is woefully misunderstood by the fanbase (sometimes).

Besides, the arc isn't close to being over yet. Maybe he might pull another selfless stunt by the end, and people will finally calm down.

[Asura]

"B-b-but Goku's always been like this!"

I dunno how many times it has to be said, but this isn't a valid excuse.

Once again, I highly encourage everyone to watch MasakoX's video about Goku's characterization in this latest arc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EA1ADQFwZb0). He brings up the tired old point that has been going around here of the "Goku always had these qualities" and completely shuts it down.

Yes, you're right. You're all right, Goku has always had these qualities. No one is debating this (well some are, but most aren't). The Funimation dub didn't somehow change the story to where Goku's actions were completely changed, so even the people who watched the dub know that Goku has bad qualities and he's done some stupid things before (like let Vegeta, Freeza, etc. go just so he can fight them again).

But when those qualities are amplified heavily in writing, the character is no longer the same character. Just as people complained that Goku's forgetfulness and stupidity was ramped up to ridiculous levels. Yes, Goku's always been forgetful, he's always been stupid when it comes to non-fighting stuff, but he was never that forgetful, never that stupid.

If we were to draw a comparison to a different anime, imagine Mustang from Full Metal Alchemist. He's a bit of a ladies man. If you're a full metal fan, you at least know about that mini skirt scene.

Now imagine if there was another Full Metal Alchemist series, and Roy Mustang just objectified every single woman he came across. He's never serious, and even when fighting female enemies he can't help but objectify the women he's fighting. Every single scene with him and a woman has to have some sort of flirting or objectification going on. Naturally, I would say that's simply not Mustang's character. However, according to some of you, you'd say that IS Mustang's character, and has ALWAYS been Mustang's character, because we've seen him be a ladies man in the past series a few times.

When these character attributes are played up to levels that didn't exist before, you can't say "they've always been like that". It's not just "X has the character trait of selfishness, so ANY kind of selfish act that X does, no matter the scale, will always be in character"

There's also the fact that TOEI has literally been screaming in your face every single episode so far, and putting it in the foreground and shoving it in your face over and over again, the concept that Goku is "evil". If this was "always Goku's character" then why has TOEI been so vehemously shoving in your face every episode that he's "evil"? Even if you don't agree with the assessment, the fact that TOEI is very intentionally and very obviously doing this is perfect proof alone that this isn't just "good ol' Goku" the one we've always known and loved. If you still deny that TOEI is intentionally trying to paint Goku in a different light, then I'm sorry but you really need to go back and watch the arc from the beginning again.