Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by sintzu » Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:33 am

SansrivaaL wrote:
So what are we supposed to believe now ?

by your logic, Toyorarou having freedom to change are slim to none.

then why did AT's script literally had Goku not go SSJG ever again because he doesnt need to anymore, he was able to fight Beerus despite reverting back to his SSJ form, which the manga completely destroys and has Goku turn into SSJG again and doesnt let him fight Beerus in SSJ?
If it were up to me we'd have one version for everything so we wouldn't have to try to figure it out.

What do you think ? the manga isn't the main product so wouldn't that mean he wouldn't be ablet to make major changes ? I have no proof of that being the case, I'm just basing it off of how things work with American entertainment.

In Toriyama's script Goku does turn back into it when he's trying to stop Beerus' attack. Goku didn't need to go Ssj1 when he did because he had Blue but that didn't stop him from doing so.
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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by TheMathemagician » Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:36 am

I'd love to get my hands on Toriyama's script.
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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by sintzu » Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:39 am

TheMathemagician wrote:I'd love to get my hands on Toriyama's script.
We all would. I think we might in a special guidebook once he's done writing these stories.
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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by SansrivaaL » Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:42 am

sintzu wrote:
SansrivaaL wrote:
So what are we supposed to believe now ?

by your logic, Toyorarou having freedom to change are slim to none.

then why did AT's script literally had Goku not go SSJG ever again because he doesnt need to anymore, he was able to fight Beerus despite reverting back to his SSJ form, which the manga completely destroys and has Goku turn into SSJG again and doesnt let him fight Beerus in SSJ?
If it were up to me we'd have one version for everything so we wouldn't have to try to figure it out.

What do you think ? the manga isn't the main product so wouldn't that mean he wouldn't be ablet to make major changes ? I have no proof of that being the case, I'm just basing it off of how things work with American entertainment.

In Toriyama's script Goku does turn back into it when he's trying to stop Beerus' attack. Goku didn't need to go Ssj1 when he did because he had Blue but that didn't stop him from doing so.
Sadly we cant have that, literally none of us has any idea which is more accurate to Toriyama's ideas, we're all basing this from the interviews. One version has SSJG which AT says in an interview that Goku doesnt need it anymore because he absorbed it, while the other has stand dragons coming out of their auras and SSJBKK (which we still have no idea if it was AT's idea or not)

He would if the author gives him the go sign, which AT did.
Q:So far Dragon Ball Super has followed Toriyama-sensei‘s plot, but I think it might be interesting for Toyotarō-sensei to become more involved with the story-writing process from here on out!
Toriyama: Good idea!! I bet it’ll make it more interesting to include Toyotarō-sensei‘s original ideas.
From their interviews together and some solo of Toyo, not a 100% sure but a high possibility that Toyo's been adding ideas of his own, he even said so early on, he's allowed to expand it.
Q:Speaking of the manga, I want to ask you two about how you put the manga together. I hear Toriyama-sensei checks the storyboards for each chapter.
Toriyama:That’s right.
Toyotarō:Since Chapter 1 I’ve used Toriyama-sensei‘s plot as a basis, but have been allowed to expand on it.

Toriyama is a room full of inconsistensies, the guy changes his mind fast, the same thing happened with Gohan, and that was a major thing of changing the main character, but in the end he didnt go with it.

Honestly more than the anime and manga giving more content, I'm more interested in getting interviews from Toriyama right now.

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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by sintzu » Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:49 am

SansrivaaL wrote:Since Chapter 1 I’ve used Toriyama-sensei‘s plot as a basis, but have been allowed to expand on it.

Toriyama is a room full of inconsistensies, the guy changes his mind fast, the same thing happened with Gohan, and that was a major thing of changing the main character, but in the end he didnt go with it.

Honestly more than the anime and manga giving more content, I'm more interested in getting interviews from Toriyama right now.
Expanding on the anime's plot would be something like having Vegeta take part in Goku and Trunks' tag team battle. Not completely sidlining both of them for Vegeta.

So you think Toriyama might've told him to put Vegeta in the spotlight instead of Goku and Trunks ? He's the original author so he can probably do what he wants but I doubt he'd make a drastic change like that.

I'm surprised we didn't even get a comment for the current torunament arc when it was announced. He was having some trouble with Toei a while back so I wonder if there's something else going on.
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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by SansrivaaL » Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:07 am

sintzu wrote:
SansrivaaL wrote:Since Chapter 1 I’ve used Toriyama-sensei‘s plot as a basis, but have been allowed to expand on it.

Toriyama is a room full of inconsistensies, the guy changes his mind fast, the same thing happened with Gohan, and that was a major thing of changing the main character, but in the end he didnt go with it.

Honestly more than the anime and manga giving more content, I'm more interested in getting interviews from Toriyama right now.
Expanding on the anime's plot would be something like having Vegeta take part in Goku and Trunks' tag team battle. Not completely sidlining both of them for Vegeta.

So you think Toriyama might've told him to put Vegeta in the spotlight instead of Goku and Trunks ? He's the original author so he can probably do what he wants but I doubt he'd make a drastic change like that.

I'm surprised we didn't even get a comment for the current torunament arc when it was announced. He was having some trouble with Toei a while back so I wonder if there's something else going on.
Its as you said "tho I beg to differ since Vegeta V Black II has been quite amazing, I dont normally enjoy Vegeta's fights but when he fights + speech, he delivers well" but still point stands that the anime did have too much Goku and Trunks fighting against Zamasu and Black so I think Toyo wanted to compensate for Vegeta not getting in the spotlight so much, its like killing 2 birds with 1 stone, it makes his manga entertaining in a different way thus the manga not being just a carbon copy of what the anime is, it gets its own identity since things happens differently there. As for Toriyama's comment on that, yes its very possible, fact still remains that Toriyama was ok with Toyo putting Vegeta in a big spot like that. As for the idea of having him there, lets just go with the both of them for now since we have nothing to go from, all that we have is
Toyotaro wrote:while a certain reveal is the same in the manga, anime, and Toriyama's outline, both the anime and manga have different ways of getting there, each taking advantage of the unique aspects of their medium, so I hope everyone enjoys comparing them. The parts I really want my fans and readers to look at are the comedic gags, because I'm pretty free to create those!
Worried about that too, we normally get interviews from him if a certain arc comes out, I hope its just because they're busy thinking of character names/designs and interactions because there's quite a giant rooster now, and because of that they werent able to do an interview as of yet.

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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:55 am

SansrivaaL wrote:
sintzu wrote:
SansrivaaL wrote:What Toyo's doing isnt exactly changing the overall plot, just details of who fights who, the end results were the same, now how you grasp that is up to you, for once, dont let your love for a character cloud your judgement.

I know you love Vegeta but c'mon man, just because you liked what Toyo did, you instantly jump into "The manga follows Akira Toriyama's plot more thoroughly than the anime because Vegeta wasnt the main character there".
How is that not a major change to the plot ? If the Z anime had the final battle on Namek be between a Ssj Vegeta and Freeza would you say it was just a small change ? changing who fights who is a major change, especially if the change involves sidlining the main characters for someone else.

The manga isn't the main product so the chances of Toyotaro having that kind of freedom to change whatever he wants are slim to none so the most likely case is that Toei are the ones making the changes.
Ofc its not, because Black isnt the final boss in this arc, Merged Zamasu is. Yes it would be quite the change because Freeza's the final boss in that arc, tho if they want to, they can change how the events overall happens if thats what they were going for, which is obviously what they're doing now, when you're behind the anime in terms of story, what should you do to keep your readers entertained? change some events, go for different approaches, which Toyo's doing.

So what are we supposed to believe now? by your logic, Toyorarou having freedom to change are slim to none, then why did AT's script literally had Goku not go SSJG ever again because he doesnt need to anymore, he was able to fight Beerus despite reverting back to his SSJ form, which the manga completely destroys and has Goku turn into SSJG again and doesnt let him fight Beerus in SSJ?
Also thats not true, Toriyama said he wants Toyo to input some of his ideas.

So far Dragon Ball Super has followed Toriyama-sensei‘s plot, but I think it might be interesting for Toyotarō-sensei to become more involved with the story-writing process from here on out!
Toriyama: Good idea!! I bet it’ll make it more interesting to include Toyotarō-sensei‘s original ideas.
Exactly! It amazes how people seem to forget that when they think Toyo somehow follows Toriyama's plot lines pretty closely. Also when Toyo was ahead in the U6 nothing was too different from the anime but as soon as the anime went ahead he did the Hit change and no coincidence that he hasn't followed the anime since.

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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by sophitia » Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:14 am

One thing I don't like about the manga is how Toyo handle future Zamasu's power level.

He was hyped to have a potential rivaling Beerus, but yet he's not even stronger than SSJ2 Trunks, like WTF?

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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by Totamo » Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:59 am

They have both done things better than the other.They have also given us scenarios for things we thought were bad.

what the anime did with trunks have caused many to hate the character. Trunks may be useless in the manga but I see no one saying they never want to see him again.


Goku is more consistent and less exaggerated in the manga but he only fights or give explanations. No character interactions of any kind.

Vegeta is way more prominent in the manga than Goku, but this isn't his story. He shouldn't be doing things Goku should be doing. It feels forced.

The manga gives explanations to the anime that never does but the anime gives moments that rival several in DBZ and DB while the manga can't touch the 42 volume.

The anime is a cashgrab and the manga is a fanfic. That's how I see it.

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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by TheMikado » Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:24 am

Totamo wrote:They have both done things better than the other.They have also given us scenarios for things we thought were bad.

what the anime did with trunks have caused many to hate the character. Trunks may be useless in the manga but I see no one saying they never want to see him again.


Goku is more consistent and less exaggerated in the manga but he only fights or give explanations. No character interactions of any kind.

Vegeta is way more prominent in the manga than Goku, but this isn't his story. He shouldn't be doing things Goku should be doing. It feels forced.

The manga gives explanations to the anime that never does but the anime gives moments that rival several in DBZ and DB while the manga can't touch the 42 volume.

The anime is a cashgrab and the manga is a fanfic. That's how I see it.
This is actually the most accurate way to describe it.

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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by TheMikado » Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:42 am

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
SansrivaaL wrote:
sintzu wrote:
How is that not a major change to the plot ? If the Z anime had the final battle on Namek be between a Ssj Vegeta and Freeza would you say it was just a small change ? changing who fights who is a major change, especially if the change involves sidlining the main characters for someone else.

The manga isn't the main product so the chances of Toyotaro having that kind of freedom to change whatever he wants are slim to none so the most likely case is that Toei are the ones making the changes.
Ofc its not, because Black isnt the final boss in this arc, Merged Zamasu is. Yes it would be quite the change because Freeza's the final boss in that arc, tho if they want to, they can change how the events overall happens if thats what they were going for, which is obviously what they're doing now, when you're behind the anime in terms of story, what should you do to keep your readers entertained? change some events, go for different approaches, which Toyo's doing.

So what are we supposed to believe now? by your logic, Toyorarou having freedom to change are slim to none, then why did AT's script literally had Goku not go SSJG ever again because he doesnt need to anymore, he was able to fight Beerus despite reverting back to his SSJ form, which the manga completely destroys and has Goku turn into SSJG again and doesnt let him fight Beerus in SSJ?
Also thats not true, Toriyama said he wants Toyo to input some of his ideas.

So far Dragon Ball Super has followed Toriyama-sensei‘s plot, but I think it might be interesting for Toyotarō-sensei to become more involved with the story-writing process from here on out!
Toriyama: Good idea!! I bet it’ll make it more interesting to include Toyotarō-sensei‘s original ideas.
Exactly! It amazes how people seem to forget that when they think Toyo somehow follows Toriyama's plot lines pretty closely. Also when Toyo was ahead in the U6 nothing was too different from the anime but as soon as the anime went ahead he did the Hit change and no coincidence that he hasn't followed the anime since.
No Toyo has had significant differences since the beginning. You said so yourself. The key in that interview that everyone should be paying attention to is that they are following Toriyama's PLOT, it doesn't seem to say outline. I've said it before and I will say it again. I doubt there was an actual outline for Super for BoG and RoF. My guess is that they agreed to adapt these while Toriyama figured out the next arc.
During this process Toriyama likely made the decision that the power inflation was too high for an ongoing series and brought back the other SSJ levels. Hence why they appear in both. If the intention was to reduce the power inflation to allow a long running series then it would make sense for the intention of those levels to be below SSG. While we seen conflicts of this in the anime where we see SSJ3 Gotenks being far under Vegeta's base. We also see Goku sparring evenly with both Gohan and Trunks which seems to imply the bases should be much lower pre-SSG. The point I'm making is that the way the anime plot is written we have people coming in constantly asking how strong Goku is and the anime does not give a clear picture on where he and everyone else stands. Is Gohan and Trunk's base really equal to post SSG Goku without Whis's training???? The anime doesn't seem to care about feeling in the gaps.

Now on the manga side, that seems to be all Toyotaro has been focusing on, sometimes at the expense of the narrative and characters. However its still there. SSG was likely a solution Toyotaro floated by Toriyama to attempt to rectify the power scaling issues logically. We know Toriyama reviews his storyboards so its not hard to believe he saw and approves and continues to approve. Toyotaro specifically said if Toriyama doesn't like something he tells him to change it. Gag or otherwise although he is particular about the gags. Further, the coincidences between Toyotaro's AF works and general fan fictions works and the Future Trunks arc are WAY too big to ignore. If i remember correct the editors or execs specifically asked Toriyama to do something with Future Trunks and the arc honestly sounds like it was partially inspired by Toyotaro's work. I wouldn't be surprised at all to learn that Toyotaro co-authors the arc outlines now, that both the manga and anime use. In fact I would say that's probably a strong possibility given the statements Toriyama has made.

Ultimately we have no idea who is doing what, but we can make guesses based on what we see similar between the two. Bringing SSG back seems like an method for filling a hole that the narrative has taking with what appears to be Toriyama's intentions. Which appears to be the SSJ levels are below SSG in power.

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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by The gr » Thu Mar 23, 2017 6:11 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:Both the anime and manga's interpretations of Toriyama's plot outline have their strengths and weakness.

The Champa arc in the manga, apart for the Goku/Botamo fight, it paled in comparison to what we got in the anime. Piccolo jobbed out in the worst way, Hit was a one-trick pony, Frost had zero character, and there was far more emphasis on the notion that Goku and Vegeta could have single-handedly won the whole tournament on their own, in comparison to what we got in the anime, where the U6 fighters actually put up much more of a fight, especially in regards to Hit.
.
Yeah right u6 putting up a better figth in the anime, through all them were jobbers with the expection of hit, and hit is a one trick pony in both version, and just because the anime have more screentime to piccolo, that doesn't excuse That he was worthless and pointless in both version
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Once again, no way Toyotaro has the balls to do something daring like this.
I don't even know if FT Trunks is the main character of his own arc in the manga. He doesn't do anything impressive. Oh yeah he does the Taiyoken... He says Gohan was the one who taught him, even though Gohan never used Taiyoken. Why would his Master teach him something that he never used in the first place?! Will FT Trunks pull off a Makankosappo too?!
I don't understand, you complained that trunks learn the tayoken though he didn't saw it but your praising genkidama sword thought That is a worse asspull
    just because is cool and unexplained that doesn't mean good writing, because imagine if trunks defeat Beerus,is cool but If they didn't explain it or built it up, that equal to an asspull and bad writing.
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    Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

    Post by Lord Beerus » Fri Mar 24, 2017 1:28 pm

    The gr wrote:
    Lord Beerus wrote:Both the anime and manga's interpretations of Toriyama's plot outline have their strengths and weakness.

    The Champa arc in the manga, apart for the Goku/Botamo fight, it paled in comparison to what we got in the anime. Piccolo jobbed out in the worst way, Hit was a one-trick pony, Frost had zero character, and there was far more emphasis on the notion that Goku and Vegeta could have single-handedly won the whole tournament on their own, in comparison to what we got in the anime, where the U6 fighters actually put up much more of a fight, especially in regards to Hit.
    .
    Yeah right u6 putting up a better figth in the anime, through all them were jobbers with the expection of hit, and hit is a one trick pony in both version, and just because the anime have more screentime to piccolo, that doesn't excuse That he was worthless and pointless in both version.
    Even without the Timeskip, Hit is still a formidabily strong opponent in the anime. In manga, Hit relies totally on his Timeskip ability. He's nothing without it. In the anime, even though Goku told Piccolo he had no chance of winning, he still went to fight Frost with the intention of winning, and using skill and strategy, nearly did beat Frost. In the manga, Piccolo didn't even bother to try and win and was resigned to just reducing Frost's stamina so that Vegeta would have an easier fight against Frost. Piccolo was treated like an absolute jobber in the manga.

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    Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

    Post by Kanassa » Fri Mar 24, 2017 1:33 pm

    Lord Beerus wrote: Piccolo was treated like an absolute jobber in the manga.
    Isn't the purpose of jobbing to set up how powerful the opponent character is? Like Vegeta jobs to Hit so that Hit looks more formidable.

    So, is it even really jobbing when you already know that the main characters can one-shot the opponent and that Piccolo isn't even trying to win?
    When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:

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    Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

    Post by perucho1990 » Fri Mar 24, 2017 1:35 pm

    I also liked that Frost realized Piccolo was faking the leg injury the whole, which was another Z reference with Piccolo faking being dead after Gero shot him to the heart.

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    Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

    Post by Lord Beerus » Fri Mar 24, 2017 1:54 pm

    Kanassa wrote:
    Lord Beerus wrote: Piccolo was treated like an absolute jobber in the manga.
    Isn't the purpose of jobbing to set up how powerful the opponent character is? Like Vegeta jobs to Hit so that Hit looks more formidable.

    So, is it even really jobbing when you already know that the main characters can one-shot the opponent and that Piccolo isn't even trying to win?
    A jobber can also be a person who has the designated of role of never winning a match-up. In the anime and manga, Piccolo was told point blank that he had no chance of winning against Frost by Piccolo, but he reaction to both those statements were widely different. In the anime, he still tries to wins and nearly does. In the manga, he accepts the fact he's basically can't win.

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    Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

    Post by The gr » Fri Mar 24, 2017 2:50 pm

    Lord Beerus wrote:
    The gr wrote:
    Lord Beerus wrote:Both the anime and manga's interpretations of Toriyama's plot outline have their strengths and weakness.

    The Champa arc in the manga, apart for the Goku/Botamo fight, it paled in comparison to what we got in the anime. Piccolo jobbed out in the worst way, Hit was a one-trick pony, Frost had zero character, and there was far more emphasis on the notion that Goku and Vegeta could have single-handedly won the whole tournament on their own, in comparison to what we got in the anime, where the U6 fighters actually put up much more of a fight, especially in regards to Hit.
    .
    Yeah right u6 putting up a better figth in the anime, through all them were jobbers with the expection of hit, and hit is a one trick pony in both version, and just because the anime have more screentime to piccolo, that doesn't excuse That he was worthless and pointless in both version.
    Even without the Timeskip, Hit is still a formidabily strong opponent in the anime. In manga, Hit relies totally on his Timeskip ability. He's nothing without it. In the anime, even though Goku told Piccolo he had no chance of winning, he still went to fight Frost with the intention of winning, and using skill and strategy, nearly did beat Frost. In the manga, Piccolo didn't even bother to try and win and was resigned to just reducing Frost's stamina so that Vegeta would have an easier fight against Frost. Piccolo was treated like an absolute jobber in the manga.
    In the narrative perspective,if piccolo wasn't there the story would have been the same, vegeta could have easily replace his role, that's what I'm trying to say, and hit is formidable in the anime with Killing techniques,he was spamming the time skip during his battle with goku
      goku stated in the manga, that hit is much stronger with his killing techniques, but the rules restrained him,so he has to relied with the time skip, and he made a habit of relying to much on it,I thought that's​ good writing in the manga version of goku vs hit, when both of them point each other out, their annoying habit, goku spouting his plans meanwhile hit relying too much with the timeskip,is a shame that no one notices this
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      Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

      Post by emperior » Sat Mar 25, 2017 2:08 pm

      The gr wrote:
      Lord Beerus wrote:
      The gr wrote: Yeah right u6 putting up a better figth in the anime, through all them were jobbers with the expection of hit, and hit is a one trick pony in both version, and just because the anime have more screentime to piccolo, that doesn't excuse That he was worthless and pointless in both version.
      Even without the Timeskip, Hit is still a formidabily strong opponent in the anime. In manga, Hit relies totally on his Timeskip ability. He's nothing without it. In the anime, even though Goku told Piccolo he had no chance of winning, he still went to fight Frost with the intention of winning, and using skill and strategy, nearly did beat Frost. In the manga, Piccolo didn't even bother to try and win and was resigned to just reducing Frost's stamina so that Vegeta would have an easier fight against Frost. Piccolo was treated like an absolute jobber in the manga.
      In the narrative perspective,if piccolo wasn't there the story would have been the same, vegeta could have easily replace his role, that's what I'm trying to say, and hit is formidable in the anime with Killing techniques,he was spamming the time skip during his battle with goku
        goku stated in the manga, that hit is much stronger with his killing techniques, but the rules restrained him,so he has to relied with the time skip, and he made a habit of relying to much on it,I thought that's​ good writing in the manga version of goku vs hit, when both of them point each other out, their annoying habit, goku spouting his plans meanwhile hit relying too much with the timeskip,is a shame that no one notices this
        Piccolo actually served the purpose of finding Frost's needle. Without him, Jaco would have not noticed the needle and Frost would have used it on Vegeta too.
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        Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

        Post by The gr » Sat Mar 25, 2017 2:30 pm

        emperior wrote:
        The gr wrote:
        Lord Beerus wrote: Even without the Timeskip, Hit is still a formidabily strong opponent in the anime. In manga, Hit relies totally on his Timeskip ability. He's nothing without it. In the anime, even though Goku told Piccolo he had no chance of winning, he still went to fight Frost with the intention of winning, and using skill and strategy, nearly did beat Frost. In the manga, Piccolo didn't even bother to try and win and was resigned to just reducing Frost's stamina so that Vegeta would have an easier fight against Frost. Piccolo was treated like an absolute jobber in the manga.
        In the narrative perspective,if piccolo wasn't there the story would have been the same, vegeta could have easily replace his role, that's what I'm trying to say, and hit is formidable in the anime with Killing techniques,he was spamming the time skip during his battle with goku
          goku stated in the manga, that hit is much stronger with his killing techniques, but the rules restrained him,so he has to relied with the time skip, and he made a habit of relying to much on it,I thought that's​ good writing in the manga version of goku vs hit, when both of them point each other out, their annoying habit, goku spouting his plans meanwhile hit relying too much with the timeskip,is a shame that no one notices this
          Piccolo actually served the purpose of finding Frost's needle. Without him, Jaco would have not noticed the needle and Frost would have used it on Vegeta too.
          Vegeta could have easily replaced that role, because let's imagine if vegeta was second in line,he pushed frost to a corner then frost sting him, and Bam Jaco could have figured it out that frost was cheating during his match with vegeta and that's it. That's how worthless piccolo was,he was there to make vegeta look cool and the fact he step out for vegeta is just another evidence.
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          Beyond
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          Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

          Post by Beyond » Sat Mar 25, 2017 2:46 pm

          Piccolo character has been dealt some serious blows in super. In Z , he was mainly just there to do cool stuff after the saiyan arc. His fight with Frieza was cool even if it was ultimately unimportant. In the android arc his fight with Gero, 17, and cell were cool, even though they caused more harm than good. In the buu arc I'd say he was at his 2nd best since the saiyan arc, even though he didn't do much his character interactions were great. You could take Piccolo out of the story but I wouldn't want you to because I actually liked him. In super, he can fuck right off though, except in the filler episodes because he still has good character interactions.

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