Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

[JazzMazz]

So now that the manga has officially entered tournament mode, I think now would be the best time to compare the anime's and manga's interpretation of the recruitment arc and give some thoughts on which medium did that part of the story better.

For me personally, I would have to say that the manga definitely told a more congruent and structured story, with every plot point that was explored feeling connected to the central narrative. The character interactions were fantastic throughout, and while the action in the recruitment wasn't particularly extensive, it was nicely put together and felt a lot more dynamic than his fights typically do.

The anime on the other hand, though indeed also have some fantastic character moments, felt very messy structurally. Each episode felt kind of removed from one another and the main plot, meaning that while a lot of them are fine as stand alones, they don't really form to together to form a particularly cohesive or interesting ongoing story. The recruitment arc was filled with action, and I have to give credit to the anime, they certainly did a fantastic job at bringing competently executed fight scenes to the screen week after week.

In conclusion, though I do enjoy a lot of the recruitment episodes in the anime, I have to say the manga has the overall better execution, namely for having a coherent and constantly engaging plot line, as opposed to the otherwise episodic nature of the anime's recruitment arc.

[HeroR]

So now that the manga has officially entered tournament mode, I think now would be the best time to compare the anime's and manga's interpretation of the recruitment arc and give some thoughts on which medium did that part of the story better.

For me personally, I would have to say that the manga definitely told a more congruent and structured story, with every plot point that was explored feeling connected to the central narrative. The character interactions were fantastic throughout, and while the action in the recruitment wasn't particularly extensive, it was nicely put together and felt a lot more dynamic than his fights typically do.

The anime on the other hand, though indeed also have some fantastic character moments, felt very messy structurally. Each episode felt kind of removed from one another and the main plot, meaning that while a lot of them are fine as stand alones, they don't really form to together to form a particularly cohesive or interesting ongoing story. The recruitment arc was filled with action, and I have to give credit to the anime, they certainly did a fantastic job at bringing competently executed fight scenes to the screen week after week.

In conclusion, though I do enjoy a lot of the recruitment episodes in the anime, I have to say the manga has the overall better execution, namely for having a coherent and constantly engaging plot line, as opposed to the otherwise episodic nature of the anime's recruitment arc.

I think the anime was purposely made episodic since many had the same structured as Super's slice of life episodes with many purposely made to be breather.

And while I got on the recruitment for dragging, the manga was too rushed to tell decent story. Like Gohan training off-scene with Piccolo and Goku and Freeza's being mostly off-scene is just lame and not good storytelling imo. All and all, it made the manga feel once again like an abridged version of the anime, which I had hoped Toyo was getting away from.

[LightBing]

One of the big problems with the anime recruitment was the lack of pay off from the various set ups. Muten Roshi pervert story amounted to one single interaction and it was the less relevant from his big episode. Gohan hype and team captain was even worse.
They should all at the very least be like Freeza. Which was threatening and through various snips extended this point. His I would call successful and so far better than in the manga.
Add to that the fake outs with the other Universes.

Another big problem was dragging. Tenshinhan's episode I don't know what was going on there. Baiting us with Boo likewise was unnecessary, #17 poacher story and probably more.

Lastly the teamwork focus which was immediately discarded after making a big deal out of it in in the build up.

The manga's only error was tricking us into thinking Gohan training had more to it. That cliffhanger and not delivering wasn't good. But like always in Dragon Ball, if the characters matter we will see it when the action begins. We will see how much stronger Gohan got and that's all it's necessary.

The manga's recruitment was not rushed, I really dislike when people call it that.
It's like did we really need to see everyone training before the Android arc? Piccolo got duper strong, the story worked. The humans likewise got stronger and played their roles, it worked. Vegeta got Super Saiyan and once again it worked. Gohan..., OK this one needed development.
I'm singling out the Android Arc but you could put basically every single arc of Dragon Ball.

[Zephyr]

the manga was too rushed to tell decent story.

The recruitment isn't its own story, though. It's the setup for the story we're just getting into the meat of.

What little we saw of Freeza's recruitment was all that we needed. Goku returns with him, and they're both beat up. That's all we need in order to see that working with him is going to be a huge gambit. Freeza likewise mentions that he's been doing image training. That's all we need in order to know that he's been improving himself, even in his personal hell. What the anime gave us was certainly more entertaining, but that doesn't make the less entertaining version "lame", or "bad storytelling".

Your conception of what makes for quality storytelling remains absolutely puzzling and unclear. The only discernible consistent thread I can intuit is that, no matter what, the manga does a worse job than the anime. Is it a distaste for the medium in general? I'm genuinely curious.

The manga's only error was tricking us into thinking Gohan training had more to it. That cliffhanger and not delivering wasn't good.

I don't really think there was any trick at play here. What we see, in order:
- Vegeta assures Beeurs that Gohan can be counted on "if he can regain his instincts".
- Goku muses that they'll have to "get his old fighting instincts back".
- Piccolo informs Goku that he plans to "train him up".

All that suggests, to me, is that Piccolo is going to train him real quick to help him regain his fighting instincts. That doesn't suggest anything special. That sounds like Gohan is re-acquiring something incredibly basic.

Piccolo's rhetorical question to Goku, "You actually think we can win this thing without him?" strikes me more as an indication that he'll be important in the tournament itself, rather than anything specific to the training, which, again, seems heavily implied to be fairly rudimentary.

[Draconic]

Responding to LightBing's comment about Gohan, as I mentioned when that chapter was first released I think not putting to much into Gohan's training, as entertaining as it would've been to see Toyotaro's take on it, was ultimately the right choice.

The plot point of Gohan being out of shape is first introduced in RoF, but since the manga skips retelling that, there is basically no mention of him not being on top of his game, outside of a few comments in the U6 arc and this one, in this medium, so solving a tertiary plot point with too much fanfare would seem a bit out of place. Giving a big pay off to something that never really got any time to settle would be pretty pointless and if you only think about the manga's pace and style, I'd even say it would be poor storytelling.

Sure, in this day and age, especially as big DB fans and the context in which the manga operates, it's basically impossible to enjoy it in a vacuum, detached from the anime/movies, but for the internal structure of the story it's hard not to see it being the right choice, even if it's the less fun one.

[perucho1990]

I will give props to Toyo for not making Goku and Vegeta sandbag like in the anime, specially Goku, who turned SSJ to deal with the Pride Troopers, unlike the anime when he and Caulifla get hit by PIS in order to hype 18 and Kale.

[RedHeat]

One of the big problems with the anime recruitment was the lack of pay off from the various set ups. Muten Roshi pervert story amounted to one single interaction and it was the less relevant from his big episode. Gohan hype and team captain was even worse.
They should all at the very least be like Freeza. Which was threatening and through various snips extended this point. His I would call successful and so far better than in the manga.
Add to that the fake outs with the other Universes.

Another big problem was dragging. Tenshinhan's episode I don't know what was going on there. Baiting us with Boo likewise was unnecessary, #17 poacher story and probably more.

Lastly the teamwork focus which was immediately discarded after making a big deal out of it in in the build up.

The manga's only error was tricking us into thinking Gohan training had more to it. That cliffhanger and not delivering wasn't good. But like always in Dragon Ball, if the characters matter we will see it when the action begins. We will see how much stronger Gohan got and that's all it's necessary.

The manga's recruitment was not rushed, I really dislike when people call it that.
It's like did we really need to see everyone training before the Android arc? Piccolo got duper strong, the story worked. The humans likewise got stronger and played their roles, it worked. Vegeta got Super Saiyan and once again it worked. Gohan..., OK this one needed development.
I'm singling out the Android Arc but you could put basically every single arc of Dragon Ball.

No, when people call manga recruitment arc "rushed" they would be be correct, at least a little bit objectivly. While I agree that the payoff for certain characters in the anime like Tien was pointless others like Master Roshi was fantastic; there's a reason why his central episode was widely regarded as one of the best in the entire arc. Him not having that background makes his inclusion in the b&w version even more pointless. Also, the way Toyo handled Frieza's revival for 24hrs was the epitome of sloppy. Them hashing out the details off-panel neggates all the context of him even being there in the first place, which brings up the question of why didn't Toyo just include Yamcha instead if he was gonna breeze right through it?

Team Work in the anime was never really supposed to be a main focus, hence why it was only briefly mentioned by Gohan inwhich most of U7 ignored.

[Zephyr]

While I agree that the payoff for certain characters in the anime like Tien was pointless others like Master Roshi was fantastic; there's a reason why his central episode was widely regarded as one of the best in the entire arc. Him not having that background makes his inclusion in the b&w version even more pointless. Also, the way Toyo handled Frieza's revival for 24hrs was the epitome of sloppy. Them hashing out the details off-panel neggates all the context of him even being there in the first place, which brings up the question of why didn't Toyo just include Yamcha instead if he was gonna breeze right through it?

Roshi's recruitment episode did nothing to provide good reason for him being there that the original run didn't already establish. He's the most experienced martial artist of the bunch, and he's got a load of really unique and resourceful techniques under his belt. These are both things that have long since been part of who he is as a fighter and as a character. What did the episode with Yurin bring to the table?

Freeza was sought out because Buu fell asleep, this was established before Goku went to get him. He agreed to help because he was promised his life back, this was established after Goku brought him back. How does this "negate all the context of him being there"? What does that even mean? Does the fact that Goku and Freeza didn't converse before your very eyes render the idea that they did converse incomprehensible or something?

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Roshi's character arc is one of the worst in the anime's entire recruitment period. Toriyama's incarnation of the hermit in the manga was a lecher, but that trait was never exaggerated to the point the anime flanderizes it these days and is something that's rarely touched upon by the end of the manga. The anime staff created a terrible plot for him to overcome his terrible characterization because they borderline ruined the character prior to that. Fortunately, Toyotaro didn't need to bother with that, because his incarnation wasn't a one note pervert joke.

However, as much as I liked the anime's interpretation of the Freeza recruitment, we didn't really see anything more than what Toyotaro showed us in the manga. Hence the extra payoff to the gag he went with when they show up beaten to a pulp.

[Hawk9211]

For whatever reason, Super's anime just really loved to drag things out. Kind of ironic, considering the rushed ending it looks it's leaving itself room for. And as brought up in this thread, there are too many writers. It's unlikely that they're on the same page, and if they are, then they're doing a really terrible job of showing it. Moreover, unlike Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z, they didn't have an ongoing manga to serve as the overarching narrative skeleton. Bullet points are no substitute. Toriyama didn't create the Dragon Ball story by writing bullet points, he drew that shit, making it up as he went along, and it evolved in front of his very eyes, week by week, over the course of ten years.

The anime's version of the Tournament of Power, in particular, is plagued by a lot of issues. The most jarring one to me is the pacing. We're getting a minute per episode, on average. That's ridiculous. Imagine if the manga has only a minute pass with each chapter.
How is the manga not building toward anything? Ultra Instinct is still going to happen. It was set up before the manga or the anime began, and I think it's quite intriguing, regardless of the medium. Jiren, the primary antagonist of the arc, is receiving actual set up in the manga, complete with character motivations. Caulifla and Kale are still set up as very gifted, without it being too overhanded, and without immediately spoiling the surprise of Kale's transformation (if it's indeed going to be a thing in the manga). The fact that Goku and Freeza are shown to arrive having squabbled already sets up that Freeza being on the Universe 7 team is going to be a source of tension between teammates.

Using the word "fluff" to describe the manga is odd. The manga is an inarguably more succinct telling of Toriyama's bullet points than the anime, which, in contrast, seems compelled to meander in telling its version of the story in every way imaginable. Not only is this an odd criticism, but it's an entirely misplaced one at that.

Many folks love to dump on the manga for throwbacks and references to older Dragon Ball material (which has become more silly than it already was, given all of the throwbacks to older Dragon Ball material that the anime has been doing in this arc), but the anime can't seem to help but give throwbacks and references to itself. It retreads plot points and story beats all the time, erring on the side of absolute redundancy. You don't see anything like Krillin regaining his confidence twice in under ten episodes, or Vegeta having to have three motivational inspirational monologues in the span of five episodes, in the manga. Freeza gets knocked out one episode; next episode he gets back up and just gets knocked out again. I was immediately reminded of that episode of Namek arc filler where Goku is presumed dead, Gohan comes back and fights Freeza, Goku is revealed to still be alive, and Gohan leaves again. What was the point? To pad, to draw things out, to add hollow fluff that only acts as a detriment to a story involving a fight against both a powerful opponent and the clock.

And forget power levels: remember, this entire battle royale is supposed to have taken place within the span of 48 minutes; the number of times characters have "run out of stamina", only to power back up to their maximum, within that incredibly cramped time space, absolutely shatters suspension of disbelief. And hell, I can't remember how many fake-out "Oh no, Freeza is betraying us! Again!" moments we've already had here. Though I'll give the anime this: barring the excess of fake-out betrayals, Freeza's probably been the most interesting part of this arc in the anime, really coming into his own as both a martial artist and a team player. Disappointed that the manga seemingly isn't setting him up for the same thing.

The anime indeed builds things up; but since it delivers on almost none of it, that build up is a complete waste of time; and since a lot of that, if paid off, could have been in service of some incredible poignancy and character development, it's also a complete waste of potential. The whole "battle for survival" thing could have been a great source of internal conflict for a lot of these guys, throughout the whole ordeal. Instead all we get is Gohan look somberly at the portrait of Obuni's family, and a tiny exchange between Toppo and #17 about both protecting their universes. It's all fleeting, and clearly not the focus.

This also could have been a great source of internal conflict for the viewer, were they invested in all of the different sides of what is essentially a fight to the death. We didn't need to see Goku struggle to convince all of his friends to fight with him. We didn't need to spend the majority of our recruitment time with characters whose survival is the only foregone conclusion of this arc. Yet, that's what we got, and a lot of characters whose setup would have provided legitimate tension didn't receive it. Showing Obuni with his family during the recruitment, rather than Murichim posing for a GodTube video, would have made Universe 10's erasure pack more of a punch. Dr. Paparoni turned out to be a pretty big threat, so it would have been cool to get to know him a bit prior to the tournament, instead we got to know a couple of mooks. Everyone they showed in Universes 4 and 9 just seemed to be a bunch of assholes. The anime had the time and space for prepping the viewers to have internal conflict of their own regarding who to root for in the tournament, but making it actually compelling apparently wasn't a priority. In all fairness, a lot of this does appear to apply to the manga, but the manga's lack of establishing compelling tension didn't take nearly as much time. The anime was dragging its feet constantly. The manga pretty much did all it could in the (probably too brief) time it took to build up to the tournament, while the anime could have done so much more in the time it took.

Vegeta's new form is also a fun bit to poke at. Like Trunks in the arc prior, we see a new form, with no build up, no explanation, and no clear or distinct criteria for acquisition. What's the point of it? Vegeta's been training with Whis, same as Goku, so we know he's more than likely going to get Ultra Instinct by the end of this tournament. This form could be removed, and absolutely nothing about the actual narrative would change. Vegeta could still be angry that Cabba is gone, still have the resolve to revive him, still flail aimlessly at Jiren, and still survive a previously fatal attack, without this new form, and it would still be 100% coherent. The form adds nothing of substance, it's pure fluff.

Neither version is perfect. But if we're talking about fluff, Toyotaro's version of this arc so far (and Super in general) is like Toriyama's cornish rex:
[spoiler][/spoiler]
Toei's version of this arc (and Super in general), on the other hand, is fluffier than Colonel Meow:
[spoiler]he was a pretty fluff guy.RIP[/spoiler]
Overall, the anime version is simply poorly thought out and poorly structured. The craftsmanship of the narrative is absolutely amateurish, and there's no way that the assembly-line nature of its creation, with too many cooks in the kitchen, isn't a large contributing factor. You're free to be bored by it all you want, but the manga is a more clearly-structured story, is more to the point, and is far more clear in the things it builds up to. It might be more "fun", and more "epic", and more "entertaining", and have more "interactions", but none of those are constitutive of, or sufficient substitutes for, a structurally sound narrative.

You could reply that the anime not delivering on things it sets up, and delivering for things it didn't set up, is "Toriyama-ish" because it's subverting all of these expectations, but the dude actually has a natural talent for executing expectation-subversion gracefully. The notion that any of Super's individual writers have the same storytelling chops that Toriyama does is dubious at best, and the notion that they do collectively is demonstrably untrue. Rather than invoking Toriyama's style, at best it feels like a really sloppy attempt at copying the meal without studying the recipe.
By:Zephyr

[Freeza9000]

[spoiler]For whatever reason, Super's anime just really loved to drag things out. Kind of ironic, considering the rushed ending it looks it's leaving itself room for. And as brought up in this thread, there are too many writers. It's unlikely that they're on the same page, and if they are, then they're doing a really terrible job of showing it. Moreover, unlike Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z, they didn't have an ongoing manga to serve as the overarching narrative skeleton. Bullet points are no substitute. Toriyama didn't create the Dragon Ball story by writing bullet points, he drew that shit, making it up as he went along, and it evolved in front of his very eyes, week by week, over the course of ten years.

The anime's version of the Tournament of Power, in particular, is plagued by a lot of issues. The most jarring one to me is the pacing. We're getting a minute per episode, on average. That's ridiculous. Imagine if the manga has only a minute pass with each chapter.
How is the manga not building toward anything? Ultra Instinct is still going to happen. It was set up before the manga or the anime began, and I think it's quite intriguing, regardless of the medium. Jiren, the primary antagonist of the arc, is receiving actual set up in the manga, complete with character motivations. Caulifla and Kale are still set up as very gifted, without it being too overhanded, and without immediately spoiling the surprise of Kale's transformation (if it's indeed going to be a thing in the manga). The fact that Goku and Freeza are shown to arrive having squabbled already sets up that Freeza being on the Universe 7 team is going to be a source of tension between teammates.

Using the word "fluff" to describe the manga is odd. The manga is an inarguably more succinct telling of Toriyama's bullet points than the anime, which, in contrast, seems compelled to meander in telling its version of the story in every way imaginable. Not only is this an odd criticism, but it's an entirely misplaced one at that.

Many folks love to dump on the manga for throwbacks and references to older Dragon Ball material (which has become more silly than it already was, given all of the throwbacks to older Dragon Ball material that the anime has been doing in this arc), but the anime can't seem to help but give throwbacks and references to itself. It retreads plot points and story beats all the time, erring on the side of absolute redundancy. You don't see anything like Krillin regaining his confidence twice in under ten episodes, or Vegeta having to have three motivational inspirational monologues in the span of five episodes, in the manga. Freeza gets knocked out one episode; next episode he gets back up and just gets knocked out again. I was immediately reminded of that episode of Namek arc filler where Goku is presumed dead, Gohan comes back and fights Freeza, Goku is revealed to still be alive, and Gohan leaves again. What was the point? To pad, to draw things out, to add hollow fluff that only acts as a detriment to a story involving a fight against both a powerful opponent and the clock.

And forget power levels: remember, this entire battle royale is supposed to have taken place within the span of 48 minutes; the number of times characters have "run out of stamina", only to power back up to their maximum, within that incredibly cramped time space, absolutely shatters suspension of disbelief. And hell, I can't remember how many fake-out "Oh no, Freeza is betraying us! Again!" moments we've already had here. Though I'll give the anime this: barring the excess of fake-out betrayals, Freeza's probably been the most interesting part of this arc in the anime, really coming into his own as both a martial artist and a team player. Disappointed that the manga seemingly isn't setting him up for the same thing.

The anime indeed builds things up; but since it delivers on almost none of it, that build up is a complete waste of time; and since a lot of that, if paid off, could have been in service of some incredible poignancy and character development, it's also a complete waste of potential. The whole "battle for survival" thing could have been a great source of internal conflict for a lot of these guys, throughout the whole ordeal. Instead all we get is Gohan look somberly at the portrait of Obuni's family, and a tiny exchange between Toppo and #17 about both protecting their universes. It's all fleeting, and clearly not the focus.

This also could have been a great source of internal conflict for the viewer, were they invested in all of the different sides of what is essentially a fight to the death. We didn't need to see Goku struggle to convince all of his friends to fight with him. We didn't need to spend the majority of our recruitment time with characters whose survival is the only foregone conclusion of this arc. Yet, that's what we got, and a lot of characters whose setup would have provided legitimate tension didn't receive it. Showing Obuni with his family during the recruitment, rather than Murichim posing for a GodTube video, would have made Universe 10's erasure pack more of a punch. Dr. Paparoni turned out to be a pretty big threat, so it would have been cool to get to know him a bit prior to the tournament, instead we got to know a couple of mooks. Everyone they showed in Universes 4 and 9 just seemed to be a bunch of assholes. The anime had the time and space for prepping the viewers to have internal conflict of their own regarding who to root for in the tournament, but making it actually compelling apparently wasn't a priority. In all fairness, a lot of this does appear to apply to the manga, but the manga's lack of establishing compelling tension didn't take nearly as much time. The anime was dragging its feet constantly. The manga pretty much did all it could in the (probably too brief) time it took to build up to the tournament, while the anime could have done so much more in the time it took.

Vegeta's new form is also a fun bit to poke at. Like Trunks in the arc prior, we see a new form, with no build up, no explanation, and no clear or distinct criteria for acquisition. What's the point of it? Vegeta's been training with Whis, same as Goku, so we know he's more than likely going to get Ultra Instinct by the end of this tournament. This form could be removed, and absolutely nothing about the actual narrative would change. Vegeta could still be angry that Cabba is gone, still have the resolve to revive him, still flail aimlessly at Jiren, and still survive a previously fatal attack, without this new form, and it would still be 100% coherent. The form adds nothing of substance, it's pure fluff.

Overall, the anime version is simply poorly thought out and poorly structured. The craftsmanship of the narrative is absolutely amateurish, and there's no way that the assembly-line nature of its creation, with too many cooks in the kitchen, isn't a large contributing factor. You're free to be bored by it all you want, but the manga is a more clearly-structured story, is more to the point, and is far more clear in the things it builds up to. It might be more "fun", and more "epic", and more "entertaining", and have more "interactions", but none of those are constitutive of, or sufficient substitutes for, a structurally sound narrative.

You could reply that the anime not delivering on things it sets up, and delivering for things it didn't set up, is "Toriyama-ish" because it's subverting all of these expectations, but the dude actually has a natural talent for executing expectation-subversion gracefully. The notion that any of Super's individual writers have the same storytelling chops that Toriyama does is dubious at best, and the notion that they do collectively is demonstrably untrue. Rather than invoking Toriyama's style, at best it feels like a really sloppy attempt at copying the meal without studying the recipe.

Zephyr is probably gonna hunt ya down.[/spoiler]

[Hawk9211]

[spoiler]For whatever reason, Super's anime just really loved to drag things out. Kind of ironic, considering the rushed ending it looks it's leaving itself room for. And as brought up in this thread, there are too many writers. It's unlikely that they're on the same page, and if they are, then they're doing a really terrible job of showing it. Moreover, unlike Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z, they didn't have an ongoing manga to serve as the overarching narrative skeleton. Bullet points are no substitute. Toriyama didn't create the Dragon Ball story by writing bullet points, he drew that shit, making it up as he went along, and it evolved in front of his very eyes, week by week, over the course of ten years.

The anime's version of the Tournament of Power, in particular, is plagued by a lot of issues. The most jarring one to me is the pacing. We're getting a minute per episode, on average. That's ridiculous. Imagine if the manga has only a minute pass with each chapter.
How is the manga not building toward anything? Ultra Instinct is still going to happen. It was set up before the manga or the anime began, and I think it's quite intriguing, regardless of the medium. Jiren, the primary antagonist of the arc, is receiving actual set up in the manga, complete with character motivations. Caulifla and Kale are still set up as very gifted, without it being too overhanded, and without immediately spoiling the surprise of Kale's transformation (if it's indeed going to be a thing in the manga). The fact that Goku and Freeza are shown to arrive having squabbled already sets up that Freeza being on the Universe 7 team is going to be a source of tension between teammates.

Using the word "fluff" to describe the manga is odd. The manga is an inarguably more succinct telling of Toriyama's bullet points than the anime, which, in contrast, seems compelled to meander in telling its version of the story in every way imaginable. Not only is this an odd criticism, but it's an entirely misplaced one at that.

Many folks love to dump on the manga for throwbacks and references to older Dragon Ball material (which has become more silly than it already was, given all of the throwbacks to older Dragon Ball material that the anime has been doing in this arc), but the anime can't seem to help but give throwbacks and references to itself. It retreads plot points and story beats all the time, erring on the side of absolute redundancy. You don't see anything like Krillin regaining his confidence twice in under ten episodes, or Vegeta having to have three motivational inspirational monologues in the span of five episodes, in the manga. Freeza gets knocked out one episode; next episode he gets back up and just gets knocked out again. I was immediately reminded of that episode of Namek arc filler where Goku is presumed dead, Gohan comes back and fights Freeza, Goku is revealed to still be alive, and Gohan leaves again. What was the point? To pad, to draw things out, to add hollow fluff that only acts as a detriment to a story involving a fight against both a powerful opponent and the clock.

And forget power levels: remember, this entire battle royale is supposed to have taken place within the span of 48 minutes; the number of times characters have "run out of stamina", only to power back up to their maximum, within that incredibly cramped time space, absolutely shatters suspension of disbelief. And hell, I can't remember how many fake-out "Oh no, Freeza is betraying us! Again!" moments we've already had here. Though I'll give the anime this: barring the excess of fake-out betrayals, Freeza's probably been the most interesting part of this arc in the anime, really coming into his own as both a martial artist and a team player. Disappointed that the manga seemingly isn't setting him up for the same thing.

The anime indeed builds things up; but since it delivers on almost none of it, that build up is a complete waste of time; and since a lot of that, if paid off, could have been in service of some incredible poignancy and character development, it's also a complete waste of potential. The whole "battle for survival" thing could have been a great source of internal conflict for a lot of these guys, throughout the whole ordeal. Instead all we get is Gohan look somberly at the portrait of Obuni's family, and a tiny exchange between Toppo and #17 about both protecting their universes. It's all fleeting, and clearly not the focus.

This also could have been a great source of internal conflict for the viewer, were they invested in all of the different sides of what is essentially a fight to the death. We didn't need to see Goku struggle to convince all of his friends to fight with him. We didn't need to spend the majority of our recruitment time with characters whose survival is the only foregone conclusion of this arc. Yet, that's what we got, and a lot of characters whose setup would have provided legitimate tension didn't receive it. Showing Obuni with his family during the recruitment, rather than Murichim posing for a GodTube video, would have made Universe 10's erasure pack more of a punch. Dr. Paparoni turned out to be a pretty big threat, so it would have been cool to get to know him a bit prior to the tournament, instead we got to know a couple of mooks. Everyone they showed in Universes 4 and 9 just seemed to be a bunch of assholes. The anime had the time and space for prepping the viewers to have internal conflict of their own regarding who to root for in the tournament, but making it actually compelling apparently wasn't a priority. In all fairness, a lot of this does appear to apply to the manga, but the manga's lack of establishing compelling tension didn't take nearly as much time. The anime was dragging its feet constantly. The manga pretty much did all it could in the (probably too brief) time it took to build up to the tournament, while the anime could have done so much more in the time it took.

Vegeta's new form is also a fun bit to poke at. Like Trunks in the arc prior, we see a new form, with no build up, no explanation, and no clear or distinct criteria for acquisition. What's the point of it? Vegeta's been training with Whis, same as Goku, so we know he's more than likely going to get Ultra Instinct by the end of this tournament. This form could be removed, and absolutely nothing about the actual narrative would change. Vegeta could still be angry that Cabba is gone, still have the resolve to revive him, still flail aimlessly at Jiren, and still survive a previously fatal attack, without this new form, and it would still be 100% coherent. The form adds nothing of substance, it's pure fluff.

Overall, the anime version is simply poorly thought out and poorly structured. The craftsmanship of the narrative is absolutely amateurish, and there's no way that the assembly-line nature of its creation, with too many cooks in the kitchen, isn't a large contributing factor. You're free to be bored by it all you want, but the manga is a more clearly-structured story, is more to the point, and is far more clear in the things it builds up to. It might be more "fun", and more "epic", and more "entertaining", and have more "interactions", but none of those are constitutive of, or sufficient substitutes for, a structurally sound narrative.

You could reply that the anime not delivering on things it sets up, and delivering for things it didn't set up, is "Toriyama-ish" because it's subverting all of these expectations, but the dude actually has a natural talent for executing expectation-subversion gracefully. The notion that any of Super's individual writers have the same storytelling chops that Toriyama does is dubious at best, and the notion that they do collectively is demonstrably untrue. Rather than invoking Toriyama's style, at best it feels like a really sloppy attempt at copying the meal without studying the recipe.

Zephyr is probably gonna hunt ya down.[/spoiler]

Just gave him credit.I wanted to post this as far as I saw it but I couldn’t find the time,so I just wanted to get done with it.

[Kataphrut]

I don't see the point of arguing quality over the manga vs the anime. The way I see it, there are too many differences between them to call one a superior retelling of the same story. If you wanted to be meta, you could call them alternate timelines, or more realistically, alternate interpretations of the same Toriyama cocktail napkin. For example, what was better, the anime version of the Zen Exhibition match, or the manga version? Neither, one was a three v three between U7 and U9, the other was a battle royale between the 12 Gods of Destruction. There's nothing to compare there.

It sucks that there's never going to be a clear consensus on the definitive version of the DBS story. The anime has the advantage of leaving a first impression and being more prominent, while the manga has more of a single authorial oversight, and (allegedly) more direct involvement from Toriyama. It's likely going to be just another thing that divides the fanbase.

[JazzMazz]

I don't see the point of arguing quality over the manga vs the anime. The way I see it, there are too many differences between them to call one a superior retelling of the same story. If you wanted to be meta, you could call them alternate timelines, or more realistically, alternate interpretations of the same Toriyama cocktail napkin. For example, what was better, the anime version of the Zen Exhibition match, or the manga version? Neither, one was a three v three between U7 and U9, the other was a battle royale between the 12 Gods of Destruction. There's nothing to compare there.

It sucks that there's never going to be a clear consensus on the definitive version of the DBS story. The anime has the advantage of leaving a first impression and being more prominent, while the manga has more of a single authorial oversight, and (allegedly) more direct involvement from Toriyama. It's likely going to be just another thing that divides the fanbase.

We are simply comparing them in terms of being a quality story. They are both different interpretations of the same general idea's, this makes comparison of which handled specific events better all the more prevelant and sure to cause comparisons between the two.

There is literally everything to compare.

[Kataphrut]

I don't see the point of arguing quality over the manga vs the anime. The way I see it, there are too many differences between them to call one a superior retelling of the same story. If you wanted to be meta, you could call them alternate timelines, or more realistically, alternate interpretations of the same Toriyama cocktail napkin. For example, what was better, the anime version of the Zen Exhibition match, or the manga version? Neither, one was a three v three between U7 and U9, the other was a battle royale between the 12 Gods of Destruction. There's nothing to compare there.

It sucks that there's never going to be a clear consensus on the definitive version of the DBS story. The anime has the advantage of leaving a first impression and being more prominent, while the manga has more of a single authorial oversight, and (allegedly) more direct involvement from Toriyama. It's likely going to be just another thing that divides the fanbase.

We are simply comparing them in terms of being a quality story. They are both different interpretations of the same general idea's, this makes comparison of which handled specific events better all the more prevelant and sure to cause comparisons between the two.

There is literally everything to compare.

That's fair enough, but I'm talking more in terms of specific plot beats and character arcs. It isn't like original Dragon Ball manga vs anime where one is a clear adaptation of the other and you can judge whether something was handled well or poorly. In theory the Super manga is an adaptation of the anime, but it does it's own thing. You can like one or the other, but you can just as easily like them both on their own merits. The reason I bought up the Zen Exhibition example is because I remember when that came out, a lot of people were saying "oh wow, the manga did this, it's so much better than the show". But you can't really say the GoD battle was better or worse than U7vU9, the former was just more exciting because it was different from the one that came before it. You can like or dislike them both just fine without that reflecting on either version. At least that's how I see it.

[HeroR]

We are simply comparing them in terms of being a quality story. They are both different interpretations of the same general idea's, this makes comparison of which handled specific events better all the more prevelant and sure to cause comparisons between the two.

There is literally everything to compare.

The thing is that here, at least, people seems to be more forgiven about the manga. Like, I said the recruitment was rushed and made the manga feel like an abridged version of the anime, while I also said the anime dragged this part. Then I got people saying 'well this wasn't important anyway, so why not skip it'? Gohan getting back in shape after he was called rusty through most of the manga didn't even deserved a panel? Goku and Freeza talking and beating each other up wasn't worth showing at all because 'we get the details in a summery'.

I mean objectively speaking, that was rushed and Toyo seemed to went on the assumption of 'you saw this in the anime, I have nothing to add, so I will just skip this'. Which is fine if the manga is really just a supplemental to the anime, but terrible if it's own standalone.

It's also untrue to say that the anime made promises, but didn't delivered of any. Like people keep saying that the anime lied about the importance of teamwork, despite us seeing teamwork used throughout the tournament from all universes. I mean, you can be upset that things didn't happened the way you thought or you thought the execution was poor, but saying the anime didn't deliver at all and the manga shouldn't even bother with development because of the anime is well, off.

That's fair enough, but I'm talking more in terms of specific plot beats and character arcs. It isn't like original Dragon Ball manga vs anime where one is a clear adaptation of the other and you can judge whether something was handled well or poorly. In theory the Super manga is an adaptation of the anime, but it does it's own thing. You can like one or the other, but you can just as easily like them both on their own merits. The reason I bought up the Zen Exhibition example is because I remember when that came out, a lot of people were saying "oh wow, the manga did this, it's so much better than the show". But you can't really say the GoD battle was better or worse than U7vU9, the former was just more exciting because it was different from the one that came before it. You can like or dislike them both just fine without that reflecting on either version. At least that's how I see it.

This is true, but I have personal reasons why I didn't like the God of Destruction rumbled. Most of it boils down to that it didn't feel like a battle of gods, but more of a battle of thugs. I mean, Beerus and Super Saiyan God Goku shook the universe when they fought, yes it happened in the manga, and Beerus and Champa during a petty fight nuked several planets and could waste their universes. Yet, a bunch of Gods of Destruction fighting at once and trying to kill each other in a lot of cases barley damaged the floor. That and I thought the way the fight was put together was sloppy and U2 God of Destruction got shafted on the gimmick.

But admittedly, I'm one of the few who never liked Toyo's art or style outside of a few panels.

[Jord]

Why are the manga and anime different btw? I just read up on some stuff and it really surprised me that there are some pretty big differences. Shouldn't the manga be based upon the anime in this case? And which one the two is canon?

[LightBing]

Why are the manga and anime different btw? I just read up on some stuff and it really surprised me that there are some pretty big differences. Shouldn't the manga be based upon the anime in this case? And which one the two is canon?

With Mr. Toriyama's script being superficial it leaves a lot of room to fill the gaps, fight's details, bulk of character interactions and flow. Then there's the difference in mediums, 45 pages a month against 20 minutes of animation per week.

Not one medium should be based on the other, they are two different takes on the story. I don't like to touch the topic of canon but just choose what you prefer is my advice. I vastly prefer the manga version so that's what I choose as my continuation to the story.
There's nothing official about what's canon, although the anime is considered the main product of Super.

[Nero<>Akira]

Both are canon.

[perucho1990]

Manga ToP has been good so far aside from Freeza still treated as Beerus bitch, the anime at least had him stop acting scared toward him.

Just want Toyotaro at least reach Kubo level of panel to make ToP a big success.