Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

[TheMikado]

Tien and Kuririn are lightweights and expendable but so are the U9 warriors Frost eliminated,you would make a point if Frost eliminated someone worthwhile or even if he was someone worthwhile himself or heck even if Tien and Krillin were at their last legs(meaning they could not contribute anymore)at the very least.
But no both the U9 members and Frost himself are fodder to Freeza.
This is a numbers game and Freeza was willing to sacrifice 3 members of his team(close to 1/3 of it)to eliminate a team that never posed any threat to him.
In the anime he contributed to his team without every slowing it or hindering it in any way.

True, but I think the argument was that they were going to get eliminated pretty quickly either way without many eliminations.

I've totaled up the anime version of things and generously applied assists and overlaps.

viewtopic.php?t=39114

Krillin 3
Roshi 5
Tien 2

Total 10 = anime eliminations (Technically 8 people due to overlap)

If we count universe 9 + Frost as part of Frieza's plan manga has:
11 eliminations, a fresh Frieza, Gohan, & Piccolo
And Roshi, so only 2 losses so far.

So to recap.
3 characters got 10 eliminations/assists (Technically only 8 people due to overlap)
vs.
2 characters got 11 eliminations/assists

I think the point Whatever is trying to make is that Krillin and Tenshinhan didn't need to get eliminated, especially so early in the tournament, for Freeza's plan to work as all it does is unnecessarily hinder the chances of Universe 7 winning.

It was definitely a gamble but so far it’s paid off more than the other interpretation. So it can’t really be called a hinderance as written. The gamble paid off more then allowing them to fight on their own based on the interpretation. Remember Frieza has been saying this whole chapter that the ends justify the means and it’s hard to say it doesn’t given the outcome.

[Lord Beerus]

True, but I think the argument was that they were going to get eliminated pretty quickly either way without many eliminations.

I've totaled up the anime version of things and generously applied assists and overlaps.

viewtopic.php?t=39114

Krillin 3
Roshi 5
Tien 2

Total 10 = anime eliminations (Technically 8 people due to overlap)

If we count universe 9 + Frost as part of Frieza's plan manga has:
11 eliminations, a fresh Frieza, Gohan, & Piccolo
And Roshi, so only 2 losses so far.

So to recap.
3 characters got 10 eliminations/assists (Technically only 8 people due to overlap)
vs.
2 characters got 11 eliminations/assists

I think the point Whatever is trying to make is that Krillin and Tenshinhan didn't need to get eliminated, especially so early in the tournament, for Freeza's plan to work as all it does is unnecessarily hinder the chances of Universe 7 winning.

It was definitely a gamble but so far it’s paid off more than the other interpretation. So it can’t really be called a hinderance as written. The gamble paid off more then allowing them to fight on their own based on the interpretation. Remember Frieza has been saying this whole chapter that the ends justify the means and it’s hard to say it doesn’t given the outcome.

The gamble will only payoff to some degree if Roshi performs poorly in combat compared to how well he did in the anime. If perform anywhere near as good as he did in the manga as he did in the anime, Freeza's plan was fucking stupid and unnecessary.

[TheMikado]

I think the point Whatever is trying to make is that Krillin and Tenshinhan didn't need to get eliminated, especially so early in the tournament, for Freeza's plan to work as all it does is unnecessarily hinder the chances of Universe 7 winning.

It was definitely a gamble but so far it’s paid off more than the other interpretation. So it can’t really be called a hinderance as written. The gamble paid off more then allowing them to fight on their own based on the interpretation. Remember Frieza has been saying this whole chapter that the ends justify the means and it’s hard to say it doesn’t given the outcome.

The gamble will only payoff to some degree if Roshi performs poorly in combat compared to how well he did in the anime. If perform anywhere near as good as he did in the manga as he did in the anime, Freeza's plan was fucking stupid and unnecessary.

I mean that's part of the fun and it was a big gamble anyway, but Frieza obviously thinks very low of those characters to begin with and very high of his own species which would be in-character for this personality to take such a gamble.

Frieza considers them worthless insects. Frost is closer to his peer in terms of power and ability. He traded a couple of them to get Frost on his side, but like you said we won't know until we see how Roshi performs but it's not hard to imagine Frieza would assume they were just worthless fodder. As for Roshi, if he gets 4 eliminations like the anime that would edge him out over the manga in terms of contestant count but at that point would getting 11 vs 12 eliminations really matter?

It's a bad plan, but that's because Frieza severely underestimates them while over estimating Frost and the threat the other universes pose.. However you could also argue that it was a wise decision to overestimate his actual enemies and assume the weakest links wouldn't last 5 mins in the ring or get any eliminations. From Frieza's perspective he thinks he made a good decision, whether that is ultimately true remains to be seen but the fact that it can go either way isn't necessarily bad because now we actually have a vested interest in seeing what Roshi does.

[LightBing]

I want to add some details that I think are important which people aren't mentioning.

First one: Freeza asked Frost if he had any other form. Meaning Golden which would immediately put Frost in the elites in this rumble. That adds much more value to Frost from Freeza's perspective and easily makes Kuririn and Tenshinhan sacrifices even more reasonable that they already are, as explained by TheMikado.

Second: Freeza's plan saved Gohan from going full-power, that's another win to add to those already mentioned.

Freeza's plan in the manga is just full of positives for Universe 7. I'm kinda chocked how well Toyotarõ was able to pull this off, I hope he continues taking these risks and doesn't get influenced by angry fans demanding wins from Tenshinhan and Kuririn.

[Goku1000]

The anime is way better. Better print, better story, better power ups.

[Marlowe89]

So with the tournament officially fledged into full gear, with the manga being two chapters in and the anime about to end, what do people think of the manga's adaptation thus far?

In terms of pacing and structure, the manga easily takes the win and it's really not even close. In terms of characterization, the anime has a decisive edge thus far; although anyone could have predicted that from the outset due to the manga's scheduling.

It's probably too early to make any strong comparisons yet, but given how much I preferred the manga's version of the exhibition matches over the anime's in regards to all three of the aforementioned categories, I wouldn't be surprised if the manga comes into its own despite the most recent chapter's shortcomings.

[dbgtFO]

The anime is way better. Better print, better story, better power ups.

Better print?
What do you mean?

[Exline]

I want to add some details that I think are important which people aren't mentioning.

First one: Freeza asked Frost if he had any other form. Meaning Golden which would immediately put Frost in the elites in this rumble. That adds much more value to Frost from Freeza's perspective and easily makes Kuririn and Tenshinhan sacrifices even more reasonable that they already are, as explained by TheMikado.

Second: Freeza's plan saved Gohan from going full-power, that's another win to add to those already mentioned.

Freeza's plan in the manga is just full of positives for Universe 7. I'm kinda chocked how well Toyotarõ was able to pull this off, I hope he continues taking these risks and doesn't get influenced by angry fans demanding wins from Tenshinhan and Kuririn.

Yeah I love how he's trying to do the opposite of what fans want like Toriyama would do.

I laughed so hard when I learned he actually saw a fan's cry for Tenshinhan to do better in the tournament, only to like to the post and do the opposite of it.

I love Frieza in the newest chapter, however, I wish Frost was less gullible and more cunning like he was in the anime. He just acted like a bruiser, but the characters understanding how important it is to reserve stamina was a plus. Toyotaro really knows how to put a story together. If only he could improve his panelling and creativity of techniques and abilities. He didn't really make Universe 9 stand out at all besides Hopp with her extending finger nails.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

It's a bad plan, but that's because Frieza severely underestimates them while over estimating Frost and the threat the other universes pose.. However you could also argue that it was a wise decision to overestimate his actual enemies and assume the weakest links wouldn't last 5 mins in the ring or get any eliminations. From Frieza's perspective he thinks he made a good decision, whether that is ultimately true remains to be seen but the fact that it can go either way isn't necessarily bad because now we actually have a vested interest in seeing what Roshi does.

The plan was bad because it didn't make sense in its execution. He built up getting Frost's trust just to throw him out the minute he aligns with him in both versions (excluding the also stupid fake fight he had with Gohan) when knowing Frost is clearly weaker and less experienced as him, what the whole thing was for just to throw Frost out was in fact unnecessary. I would have bought it more if it happened near the end, or if he got Frost to eliminate his own team off first for Freeza to fake him out. At least that would have been something, even if essentially pointless.

So with the tournament officially fledged into full gear, with the manga being two chapters in and the anime about to end, what do people think of the manga's adaptation thus far?

In terms of pacing and structure, the manga easily takes the win and it's really not even close. In terms of characterization, the anime has a decisive edge thus far; although anyone could have predicted that from the outset due to the manga's scheduling.

Meh, does the anime have better characterization? Not really. They just have the time to give the characters things to do outside the main plot points, but what Toei did on their own was never consistent for build up.

[TheMikado]

It's a bad plan, but that's because Frieza severely underestimates them while over estimating Frost and the threat the other universes pose.. However you could also argue that it was a wise decision to overestimate his actual enemies and assume the weakest links wouldn't last 5 mins in the ring or get any eliminations. From Frieza's perspective he thinks he made a good decision, whether that is ultimately true remains to be seen but the fact that it can go either way isn't necessarily bad because now we actually have a vested interest in seeing what Roshi does.

The plan was bad because it didn't make sense in its execution. He built up getting Frost's trust just to throw him out the minute he aligns with him in both versions (excluding the also stupid fake fight he had with Gohan) when knowing Frost is clearly weaker and less experienced as him, what the whole thing was for just to throw Frost out was in fact unnecessary. I would have bought it more if it happened near the end, or if he got Frost to eliminate his own team off first for Freeza to fake him out. At least that would have been something, even if essentially pointless.

For some reason Frost and Frieza were supposed to work together in both versions and then Frieza double cross Frost. I can only assume it is as part of the outline without any specifics or motives.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

It's a bad plan, but that's because Frieza severely underestimates them while over estimating Frost and the threat the other universes pose.. However you could also argue that it was a wise decision to overestimate his actual enemies and assume the weakest links wouldn't last 5 mins in the ring or get any eliminations. From Frieza's perspective he thinks he made a good decision, whether that is ultimately true remains to be seen but the fact that it can go either way isn't necessarily bad because now we actually have a vested interest in seeing what Roshi does.

The plan was bad because it didn't make sense in its execution. He built up getting Frost's trust just to throw him out the minute he aligns with him in both versions (excluding the also stupid fake fight he had with Gohan) when knowing Frost is clearly weaker and less experienced as him, what the whole thing was for just to throw Frost out was in fact unnecessary. I would have bought it more if it happened near the end, or if he got Frost to eliminate his own team off first for Freeza to fake him out. At least that would have been something, even if essentially pointless.

For some reason Frost and Frieza were supposed to work together in both versions and then Frieza double cross Frost. I can only assume it is as part of the outline without any specifics or motives.

Most likely.They just concluded it too early. It basically ended up like Freeza did it all just to ring out Frost when we knew that Frost was never a threat to him. It was a bit silly, or we got our hopes up because of what we thought their team up meant. Super in gener's biggest flaw is its inability to hold any sub-plots. Where as Z always had multiple things going on in the background that eventually tied into each other, created new roadblocks or developed character growth then brought them back into the main plot. Super just never does this. Toriyama's mentality of "him this character is still useful, what can I do with him here" was what did that, without him needing to plan out things. They tried in the Goku Black arc but again, nothing is ever independently investigated. Its just immediately concluded, and then making it look like a pointless detour. Whats worse is that the TOP kept hinting something about the Grand Priest having ulterior motives or something with the Angels hiding potential knowledge (as they didn't care their Universes were being destroyed knowing they were spared prior to them stating it), instead nope. We need to focus more on poorly written fights and more shallow match ups. It essentially was why the TOP was boring for me. I'm one of few fans that doesn't give that much of a damn about match up hype. I want to see plot twists (and not spontaneous saving throws as Super does it).

[Marlowe89]

Meh, does the anime have better characterization? Not really. They just have the time to give the characters things to do outside the main plot points, but what Toei did on their own was never consistent for build up.

I will absolutely concur with the notion that the anime has had its share of massive narrative problems throughout the tournament, especially when it comes to the sheer repetition of dialogue, gags, and character-driven beats in general, but what I mean by "characterization" is mainly how distinctive these fighters have been compared to the manga's two chapters so far. We know a hell of a lot more about the Trio De Dangers in the anime than in the manga, regardless of whether that's in respect to their personalities or their unique abilities, and even Universe 7's weakest teammates were arguably given more of a role.

As I've mentioned in the other thread, that's not to claim that the anime's version of Universe 9 is more sympathetic than the manga's take -- far from it, and in fact I'd argue that it's just the opposite -- but I can't deny that the anime offers a more in-depth look into these characters than the manga has. Again though, the manga's version of the tournament has only gone on for two chapters and Toyotaro has more than enough room to outperform in this regard, so it's still too early to tell at this juncture. All I can declare for sure is that I definitely thought that both the recruitment and exhibition "acts" were implemented much better in the manga than they were in the anime.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

Meh, does the anime have better characterization? Not really. They just have the time to give the characters things to do outside the main plot points, but what Toei did on their own was never consistent for build up.

I will absolutely concur with the notion that the anime has had its share of massive narrative problems throughout the tournament, especially when it comes to the sheer repetition of dialogue, gags, and character-driven beats in general, but what I mean by "characterization" is mainly how distinctive these fighters have been compared to the manga's two chapters so far. We know a hell of a lot more about the Trio De Dangers in the anime than in the manga, regardless of whether that's in respect to their personalities or their unique abilities, and even Universe 7's weakest teammates were arguably given more of a role.

As I've mentioned in the other thread, that's not to claim that the anime's version of Universe 9 is more sympathetic than the manga's take -- far from it, and in fact I'd argue that it's just the opposite -- but I can't deny that the anime offers a more in-depth look into these characters than the manga has. Again though, the manga's version of the tournament has only gone on for two chapters and Toyotaro has more than enough room to outperform in this regard, so it's too early to tell at this juncture. All I can declare for sure is that I definitely thought that both the recruitment and exhibition "acts" were both implemented much better in the manga than they were in the anime.

I see that as just trivia for people who just want to know more for the sake of knowing these answers. Where as, I see it as if its not in the manga, it's irrelevant to what I need to know. I don't really know anything about the Trio De Dangers, but they were never really that important. The Anime arguably might give more importance to them than what I can assume was intended, its why people were angry the Zen exhibition match wasn't used in the manga. People seem to just equate screen time as development or proof of importance. The manga's main focus was so far U6 Saiyans, Jiren (and probably Ribrianne because Toriyama designed her and she is on the arc cover) which I take as the most important to the arc. I mean the only thing the anime noted that I guess I take as I guess was interesting is that U9 was there because it was a gutter universe and Sedra was too passive to really destroy it in his own judgement. Though as interesting as that is, its really irrelevant to the actual plot of the arc. Just like the ridiculous mortal level thing they said.

On that though, I prefer the Manga's representation of Jiren, Kale & Belmod vastly over the anime. Even though I don't like the aesthetic for Belmod, Toyotaro gave him a world that has a theme fitting his aesthetic rather than him just being as out of place as he looks in the anime. I generally think the manga does enough to present the essentials characters without giving us too much or useless information and they have a bit more of an edgier feel to them as opposed to their anime counter parts where everyone just either a Goku fanboy or Jiren fanboy. I have high hopes for Kale to redeem her from how people see her from the anime. So far so good.

[Omniboy]

The plan was bad because it didn't make sense in its execution. He built up getting Frost's trust just to throw him out the minute he aligns with him in both versions (excluding the also stupid fake fight he had with Gohan) when knowing Frost is clearly weaker and less experienced as him, what the whole thing was for just to throw Frost out was in fact unnecessary. I would have bought it more if it happened near the end, or if he got Frost to eliminate his own team off first for Freeza to fake him out. At least that would have been something, even if essentially pointless.

Except that was only in the anime version that he faked an alliance with him just to get rid of him and nobody else. In the manga there was more use out of this alliance than just getting rid of one person. In gaining his trust, Frieza promised him that if Frost goes all out against Universe 9, that he will take care of the rest of the team while Frost regains energy. Likewise, when we encounter Gohan, he is struggling greatly against Universe 9, and suggest that he may have to go all out, but piccolo protests to that considering that it is too early to use too much energy. However, Frost goes full power, thinking that Frieza will help, and eliminates the majority of Universe 9. Frieza then gets rid of a weakened Frost, all then catches the Trio off guard, eliminating them, which was made easier by the fact Frost eliminated the person who could catch her team members and bring them back. And Frieza also spares himself some energy.


Frieza's plan not only gets rid of Frost, but he also gets rid of a whole entire team. A team of which that has multiple abilities and strengths that can keep them from being eliminated.

Edit: He also saves Gohan from using too much energy, and stops one of the strongest warriors on team from becoming too weakened early on.

[Whatever]

True, but I think the argument was that they were going to get eliminated pretty quickly either way without many eliminations.

I've totaled up the anime version of things and generously applied assists and overlaps.

viewtopic.php?t=39114

Krillin 3
Roshi 5
Tien 2

Total 10 = anime eliminations (Technically 8 people due to overlap)

If we count universe 9 + Frost as part of Frieza's plan manga has:
11 eliminations, a fresh Frieza, Gohan, & Piccolo
And Roshi, so only 2 losses so far.

So to recap.
3 characters got 10 eliminations/assists (Technically only 8 people due to overlap)
vs.
2 characters got 11 eliminations/assists

I think the point Whatever is trying to make is that Krillin and Tenshinhan didn't need to get eliminated, especially so early in the tournament, for Freeza's plan to work as all it does is unnecessarily hinder the chances of Universe 7 winning.

It was definitely a gamble but so far it’s paid off more than the other interpretation. So it can’t really be called a hinderance as written. The gamble paid off more then allowing them to fight on their own based on the interpretation. Remember Frieza has been saying this whole chapter that the ends justify the means and it’s hard to say it doesn’t given the outcome.

Yep as Beerus said,for Freeza's plan to actually have more advantages than disadvantages he needs to meet at the least 1 of those 4 conditions.
1)For Frost to eliminate someone who is worth the sacrifices
2)For Freeza to eliminate someone worthwhile because of the plan
3)For the humans to be at their last leg(meaning sacrificing them after being certain they cannot contribute anymore)
4)Using this plan in late game when the competition is smaller and more competitive meaning exxecuting this plan later is gonna have more merit than early in the game.

As we know so far:
1)While Frost eliminated a good chunk of people they were all fodder,Freeza sacrificied 1/3 of his team( i say 1/3 since it was dumb luck Roshi stayed in) for a bunch of fodder.
2)Speaking of fodder,Frost is fodder to Freeza himself,so Freeza's plan does not meet this condition either.
3)Sacrificing the humans when they have nothing left to offer would mean them being sacrificial lambs is tottaly worth it,but thats not the case since they were still at top shape.
4)So while they were about 60-70 competitors left,Freeza was willing to sacrifice 3 members of his team(pretty close to 1/3 of it)to get rid 8-9(including Frost)of the oponents( so close to 1/7 of the competition).
So percentage wise,Freeza unnecessarily hindered the chances of U7 winning.

[TheMikado]

I think the point Whatever is trying to make is that Krillin and Tenshinhan didn't need to get eliminated, especially so early in the tournament, for Freeza's plan to work as all it does is unnecessarily hinder the chances of Universe 7 winning.

It was definitely a gamble but so far it’s paid off more than the other interpretation. So it can’t really be called a hinderance as written. The gamble paid off more then allowing them to fight on their own based on the interpretation. Remember Frieza has been saying this whole chapter that the ends justify the means and it’s hard to say it doesn’t given the outcome.

Yep as Beerus said,for Freeza's plan to actually have more advantages than disadvantages he needs to meet at the least 1 of those 4 conditions.
1)For Frost to eliminate someone who is worth the sacrifices
2)For Freeza to eliminate someone worthwhile because of the plan
3)For the humans to be at their last leg(meaning sacrificing them after being certain they cannot contribute anymore)
4)Using this plan in late game when the competition is smaller and more competitive meaning exxecuting this plan later is gonna have more merit than early in the game.

As we know so far:
1)While Frost eliminated a good chunk of people they were all fodder,Freeza sacrificied 1/3 of his team( i say 1/3 since it was dumb luck Roshi stayed in) for a bunch of fodder.
2)Speaking of fodder,Frost is fodder to Freeza himself,so Freeza's plan does not meet this condition either.
3)Sacrificing the humans when they have nothing left to offer would mean them being sacrificial lambs is tottaly worth it,but thats not the case since they were still at top shape.
4)So while they were about 60-70 competitors left,Freeza was willing to sacrifice 3 members of his team(pretty close to 1/3 of it)to get rid 8-9(including Frost)of the oponents( so close to 1/7 of the competition).
So percentage wise,Freeza unnecessarily hindered the chances of U7 winning.

Wait so I why are you wagering what “could have happened” vs your assessment of “what actually happened”.

Example, you count Roshi as part of the against column, yet ignore the members of universe 9 that Frost would have eliminated but happened to get away.

If we took into account what “could have happened”

Frieza would have sacrificed 3 members for 11 eliminations and saved the remaining teams stamina.
Further it was from Freeza's perspective which is the important thing.

Thus at this point when weighed against what possibly could have happened without Freeza's plan, the anime shows how it could have played out. 8 eliminations with 3 members out. It’s the only representation we have of what “could have happened” without his plan because it actually happens in the anime.

Then we weigh against what actually actually happens
In the manga as a result. 11 eliminations with 2 members out. You can remove the trios if you want and only make it 8 and the net outcome at this point is still better.

You can even argue that it was a bad plan because Roshi “could” of gotten out but Frieza isn’t Omniscient and wouldn’t have known Roshi would get any eliminations at all so Roshis actually performance really has no barring on the plan. It was a gamble plain and simple which could or could not pay off and the writer choose to right the plan as successful. There was always a risk that it wouldn’t work even in universe so saying it was a bad plan with the prior knowledge that they could have eliminations doesn’t make sense. Frieza made a choose, took a gamble in universe, and it paid off.

[Raphael_Z]

Frieza convinced fodder (Frodder?) from another universe to take out fodder while sacrificing his own universe's fodder.

His end-plan in the anime (turning Golden and fake-fighting with Ultimate Gohan thus draining both of their stamina) just to gain the trust of Frodder in order to eliminate him was beyond idiotic.

Frieza in the manga is consistent in being a sociopath that does things for the evil-lulz without sacrificing anything of worth (yes, the TOP is a number's game but there is a 100000% certainty that even without Frost, Tien and Krilin would have been easily ringed out by someone else).

In the anime Frieza's personality changes every chapter and the whole narrative of "is Frieza REALLY going to betray us?" forced the extremely unnecessary Golden Frieza vs Ultimate Gohan fake-fight. At least in the manga his fake betrayal was over in one single chapter instead of dragging it for 10+ episodes.

I think that many people here are forgetting that the characters having unlimited stamina for plot reasons is REALLY BAD storytelling and it is the consequence of having U7 fight against 80% of the TOP participants in the anime. In the manga, conserving stamina is key which is why Frieza's plan was brilliant.

[blain218]

I want to add some details that I think are important which people aren't mentioning.

First one: Freeza asked Frost if he had any other form. Meaning Golden which would immediately put Frost in the elites in this rumble. That adds much more value to Frost from Freeza's perspective and easily makes Kuririn and Tenshinhan sacrifices even more reasonable that they already are, as explained by TheMikado.

Second: Freeza's plan saved Gohan from going full-power, that's another win to add to those already mentioned.

Freeza's plan in the manga is just full of positives for Universe 7. I'm kinda chocked how well Toyotarõ was able to pull this off, I hope he continues taking these risks and doesn't get influenced by angry fans demanding wins from Tenshinhan and Kuririn.

What's the point of even bringing Tien and Krillin along if they aren't gonna accomplish anything? Its like people will rationalize every bad decision the manga does

[blain218]

For whatever reason, Super's anime just really loved to drag things out. Kind of ironic, considering the rushed ending it looks it's leaving itself room for. And as brought up in this thread, there are too many writers. It's unlikely that they're on the same page, and if they are, then they're doing a really terrible job of showing it. Moreover, unlike Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z, they didn't have an ongoing manga to serve as the overarching narrative skeleton. Bullet points are no substitute. Toriyama didn't create the Dragon Ball story by writing bullet points, he drew that shit, making it up as he went along, and it evolved in front of his very eyes, week by week, over the course of ten years.

The anime's version of the Tournament of Power, in particular, is plagued by a lot of issues. The most jarring one to me is the pacing. We're getting a minute per episode, on average. That's ridiculous. Imagine if the manga has only a minute pass with each chapter.
How is the manga not building toward anything? Ultra Instinct is still going to happen. It was set up before the manga or the anime began, and I think it's quite intriguing, regardless of the medium. Jiren, the primary antagonist of the arc, is receiving actual set up in the manga, complete with character motivations. Caulifla and Kale are still set up as very gifted, without it being too overhanded, and without immediately spoiling the surprise of Kale's transformation (if it's indeed going to be a thing in the manga). The fact that Goku and Freeza are shown to arrive having squabbled already sets up that Freeza being on the Universe 7 team is going to be a source of tension between teammates.

Using the word "fluff" to describe the manga is odd. The manga is an inarguably more succinct telling of Toriyama's bullet points than the anime, which, in contrast, seems compelled to meander in telling its version of the story in every way imaginable. Not only is this an odd criticism, but it's an entirely misplaced one at that.

Many folks love to dump on the manga for throwbacks and references to older Dragon Ball material (which has become more silly than it already was, given all of the throwbacks to older Dragon Ball material that the anime has been doing in this arc), but the anime can't seem to help but give throwbacks and references to itself. It retreads plot points and story beats all the time, erring on the side of absolute redundancy. You don't see anything like Krillin regaining his confidence twice in under ten episodes, or Vegeta having to have three motivational inspirational monologues in the span of five episodes, in the manga. Freeza gets knocked out one episode; next episode he gets back up and just gets knocked out again. I was immediately reminded of that episode of Namek arc filler where Goku is presumed dead, Gohan comes back and fights Freeza, Goku is revealed to still be alive, and Gohan leaves again. What was the point? To pad, to draw things out, to add hollow fluff that only acts as a detriment to a story involving a fight against both a powerful opponent and the clock.

And forget power levels: remember, this entire battle royale is supposed to have taken place within the span of 48 minutes; the number of times characters have "run out of stamina", only to power back up to their maximum, within that incredibly cramped time space, absolutely shatters suspension of disbelief. And hell, I can't remember how many fake-out "Oh no, Freeza is betraying us! Again!" moments we've already had here. Though I'll give the anime this: barring the excess of fake-out betrayals, Freeza's probably been the most interesting part of this arc in the anime, really coming into his own as both a martial artist and a team player. Disappointed that the manga seemingly isn't setting him up for the same thing.

The anime indeed builds things up; but since it delivers on almost none of it, that build up is a complete waste of time; and since a lot of that, if paid off, could have been in service of some incredible poignancy and character development, it's also a complete waste of potential. The whole "battle for survival" thing could have been a great source of internal conflict for a lot of these guys, throughout the whole ordeal. Instead all we get is Gohan look somberly at the portrait of Obuni's family, and a tiny exchange between Toppo and #17 about both protecting their universes. It's all fleeting, and clearly not the focus.

This also could have been a great source of internal conflict for the viewer, were they invested in all of the different sides of what is essentially a fight to the death. We didn't need to see Goku struggle to convince all of his friends to fight with him. We didn't need to spend the majority of our recruitment time with characters whose survival is the only foregone conclusion of this arc. Yet, that's what we got, and a lot of characters whose setup would have provided legitimate tension didn't receive it. Showing Obuni with his family during the recruitment, rather than Murichim posing for a GodTube video, would have made Universe 10's erasure pack more of a punch. Dr. Paparoni turned out to be a pretty big threat, so it would have been cool to get to know him a bit prior to the tournament, instead we got to know a couple of mooks. Everyone they showed in Universes 4 and 9 just seemed to be a bunch of assholes. The anime had the time and space for prepping the viewers to have internal conflict of their own regarding who to root for in the tournament, but making it actually compelling apparently wasn't a priority. In all fairness, a lot of this does appear to apply to the manga, but the manga's lack of establishing compelling tension didn't take nearly as much time. The anime was dragging its feet constantly. The manga pretty much did all it could in the (probably too brief) time it took to build up to the tournament, while the anime could have done so much more in the time it took.

Vegeta's new form is also a fun bit to poke at. Like Trunks in the arc prior, we see a new form, with no build up, no explanation, and no clear or distinct criteria for acquisition. What's the point of it? Vegeta's been training with Whis, same as Goku, so we know he's more than likely going to get Ultra Instinct by the end of this tournament. This form could be removed, and absolutely nothing about the actual narrative would change. Vegeta could still be angry that Cabba is gone, still have the resolve to revive him, still flail aimlessly at Jiren, and still survive a previously fatal attack, without this new form, and it would still be 100% coherent. The form adds nothing of substance, it's pure fluff.

Neither version is perfect. But if we're talking about fluff, Toyotaro's version of this arc so far (and Super in general) is like Toriyama's cornish rex:
[spoiler][/spoiler]
Toei's version of this arc (and Super in general), on the other hand, is fluffier than Colonel Meow:
[spoiler]he was a pretty fluff guy.RIP[/spoiler]
Overall, the anime version is simply poorly thought out and poorly structured. The craftsmanship of the narrative is absolutely amateurish, and there's no way that the assembly-line nature of its creation, with too many cooks in the kitchen, isn't a large contributing factor. You're free to be bored by it all you want, but the manga is a more clearly-structured story, is more to the point, and is far more clear in the things it builds up to. It might be more "fun", and more "epic", and more "entertaining", and have more "interactions", but none of those are constitutive of, or sufficient substitutes for, a structurally sound narrative.

You could reply that the anime not delivering on things it sets up, and delivering for things it didn't set up, is "Toriyama-ish" because it's subverting all of these expectations, but the dude actually has a natural talent for executing expectation-subversion gracefully. The notion that any of Super's individual writers have the same storytelling chops that Toriyama does is dubious at best, and the notion that they do collectively is demonstrably untrue. Rather than invoking Toriyama's style, at best it feels like a really sloppy attempt at copying the meal without studying the recipe.
By:Zephyr

It makes no sense how anyone can say the manga has better storytelling than the anime, especially when it comes to the horrible changes Toyotaro made to the Black arc and the reduced focus on the supporting cast compare the anime version.

And Vegeta's new form was explained in the ToP. It was him breaking his limits in similar manner as Goku did according to Whis.

The manga does a better job with Jiren I'll give it that, but the manga version of the ToP is already looking worse than the anime, especially with how Toyotaro fails to give spotlight to much of the other combatants of the ToP compared to the anime and makes them look even less of a threat.

[prince212]

It makes no sense how anyone can say the manga has better storytelling than the anime, especially when it comes to the horrible changes Toyotaro made to the Black arc and the reduced focus on the supporting cast compare the anime version.

If reduce focus on the supporting cast means , for example , that present bulma is not traveling to the future and try to seduce zamasu , I like it , that change-omission has sense .
Imo future trunks arc manga was way cool .anime was cool too (if we skip some issues like that example above ) and the intrigue point was awesome .