Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

[LightBing]

I for one love the relevance Trunks was given in the manga. It's wholesome and interesting.

- He gets a significant power up since the last time we saw him, which allows him to match up to all non-Gods forms. Throw in the twist that he improved SSJ2, further valuing the character.

- He gets a flashback, which shows him doing what Goku and the other couldn't do; stop Boo from awakening up. It also shows us him getting SSJ2 and the information about him training with Kaioshin. It's a great contribution to the story by Toyotarõ, with returns further into the arc.

- While he can't compete with Black, he's useful by allowing them to escape in my favourite section of the arc, so far. It's really, really great.

- In the second part of the battle against Black and Zamasu, Toyotarõ finds another way to make Trunks useful by giving him healing abilities. Another way to be important without having the significant power.

Now compare this to the anime, there it's almost all lights and smoke without substance. Sure, his unique transformation is cool and all but it's devoid of value.
Look at him sacrificing himself so that Goku and Vegeta escape, a plot point which should definitely be from Mr.Toriyama since it's present in both mediums.

In the anime they didn't even bothered to show it, a key moment for Trunks in the arc. Seriously, he transforms and is all cool and stuff. Says "go, I'll hold them"; cliffhanger. Next episode he escaped..., somehow and I guess that's it. It's awful!
I give the anime credit for trying to go for the emotional struggles of the character, the problem is they didn't followed up. The end where the character just goes to another timeline and barely gives two shits about his World, including his mother, the resistance and those two little kids gives us nothing at all.

They went for a tearjerker with Gohan, when they barely touched that aspect. He got one episode, which was more about reflection and nostalgia. Gohan didn't have anything to do with Trunks for the rest of the arc.

I could go on but I'll stop here. Unfortunately many connect relevance exclusively to fighting and kills (look at all the jobbing talk in the main Super thread), to them Trunks being slapped around together with Goku and Vegeta, plus him getting that pseudo-kill on Zamasu is miles ahead of what the manga did. An opinion which I strongly disagree with.

[The gr]

I for one love the relevance Trunks was given in the manga. It's wholesome and interesting.

- He gets a significant power up since the last time we saw him, which allows him to match up to all non-Gods forms. Throw in the twist that he improved SSJ2, further valuing the character.

- He gets a flashback, which shows him doing what Goku and the other couldn't do; stop Boo from awakening up. It also shows us him getting SSJ2 and the information about him training with Kaioshin. It's a great contribution to the story by Toyotarõ, with returns further into the arc.

- While he can't compete with Black, he's useful by allowing them to escape in my favourite section of the arc, so far. It's really, really great.

- In the second part of the battle against Black and Zamasu, Toyotarõ finds another way to make Trunks useful by giving him healing abilities. Another way to be important without having the significant power.

Now compare this to the anime, there it's almost all lights and smoke without substance. Sure, his unique transformation is cool and all but it's devoid of value.
Look at him sacrificing himself so that Goku and Vegeta escape, a plot point which should definitely be from Mr.Toriyama since it's present in both mediums.

In the anime they didn't even bothered to show it, a key moment for Trunks in the arc. Seriously, he transforms and is all cool and stuff. Says "go, I'll hold them"; cliffhanger. Next episode he escaped..., somehow and I guess that's it. It's awful!
I give the anime credit for trying to go for the emotional struggles of the character, the problem is they didn't followed up. The end where the character just goes to another timeline and barely gives two shits about his World, including his mother, the resistance and those two little kids gives us nothing at all.

They went for a tearjerker with Gohan, when they barely touched that aspect. He got one episode, which was more about reflection and nostalgia. Gohan didn't have anything to do with Trunks for the rest of the arc.

I could go on but I'll stop here. Unfortunately many connect relevance exclusively to fighting and kills (look at all the jobbing talk in the main Super thread), to them Trunks being slapped around together with Goku and Vegeta, plus him getting that pseudo-kill on Zamasu is miles ahead of what the manga did. An opinion which I strongly disagree with.

Toyo trunks is basically namek krillin in term of relevance,no I'm not referring to those lame memes rather both character are not the strongest or they don't win that much matches rather there relevant to the plot,I mean think about it both if them blind someone to escape,they Catch the villain off guard, they fight the odds,they save a lot of people at a cost of almost dying and both of them get boost

or you can argue he's the white mage of the team, not the strongest in raw Power but dang there useful in your party

[Jinzoningen MULE]

I do not understand what some people want.

There were lots of complaints due to the highlight of Trunks and the unexplained powers he received.

Now in the manga, he has not received any PUs out of the ordinary and yet complain that he had little highlight
What do they want then?

Many different people have many different complaints at different times.

[RedHeat]

I'm slightly worried worried about how Toyo'll handle Kale. While in the anime her introduction and likeness to Broly could've been obviously handled a lot better, I feel Toyo will either not introduce her or heavily change her design/character to the point where she's basically an average U6 Saiyan with maybe a mutation that discolors her hair and makes her slightly stronger than your average SSJ (though thinking about it now, it doesn't seem all that bad. But I doubt it'll turn out good if it happens).

[The gr]

I'm slightly worried worried about how Toyo'll handle Kale. While in the anime her introduction and likeness to Broly could've been obviously handled a lot better, I feel Toyo will either not introduce her or heavily change her design/character to the point where she's basically an average U6 Saiyan with maybe a mutation that discolors her hair and makes her slightly stronger than your average SSJ (though thinking about it now, it doesn't seem all that bad. But I doubt it'll turn out good if it happens).

I highly doubt That, I say Kale in both versions will be the Same maybe her design will be a little different from the Manga like This

[sintzu]

I'm slightly worried worried about how Toyo'll handle Kale. While in the anime her introduction and likeness to Broly could've been obviously handled a lot better, I feel Toyo will either not introduce her or heavily change her design/character to the point where she's basically an average U6 Saiyan with maybe a mutation that discolors her hair and makes her slightly stronger than your average SSJ (though thinking about it now, it doesn't seem all that bad. But I doubt it'll turn out good if it happens).

I highly doubt That, Toyo never change a design drastically, I say Kale in both versions will be the Same maybe her design will be a little different from the Manga like This

We know both him and Toriyama designed the new destroyers so what if Kale alongside other characters were designed by Toei ? If that's the case then I wouldn't be surprised if the arc ends up being very different from the anime like what's happening with the Zamasu arc where the Toriyama/Toyotaru characters will be the only ones in the manga while the Toei ones will happen off panal, including Kale if that's who designed her.

[BlueBasilisk]

I'm slightly worried worried about how Toyo'll handle Kale. While in the anime her introduction and likeness to Broly could've been obviously handled a lot better, I feel Toyo will either not introduce her or heavily change her design/character to the point where she's basically an average U6 Saiyan with maybe a mutation that discolors her hair and makes her slightly stronger than your average SSJ (though thinking about it now, it doesn't seem all that bad. But I doubt it'll turn out good if it happens).

I wouldn't be surprised if Toyotaro was the one who designed Kale. He brought Broly back in his version of AF with some actual character development and also featured him in Victory Mission. He seems to like the guy.

[The gr]

I wouldn't be surprised if Toyotaro was the one who designed Kale. He brought Broly back in his version of AF with some actual character development and also featured him in Victory Mission. He seems to like the guy.

Yeah and her design is kinda similar to momo from my hero academia and Toyo is a huge fan of that Anime

We know both him and Toriyama designed the new destroyers so what if Kale alongside other characters were designed by Toei ? If that's the case then I wouldn't be surprised if the arc ends up being very different from the anime like what's happening with the Zamasu arc where the Toriyama/Toyotaru characters will be the only ones in the manga while the Toei ones will happen off panal, including Kale if that's who designed her.

I mean if caulifa is designed by toriyama then is likely Kale is also designed by toriyama or maybe by Toyo,both product will have the same character but it will be different in terms of battle, character battle Power and possibly characterization.

I'm expecting things like caulifa and #17 are slightly weaker and vegeta will go SSG to conserve stamina and use the gamma Burst flash

[Lord Beerus]

Look at him sacrificing himself so that Goku and Vegeta escape, a plot point which should definitely be from Mr.Toriyama since it's present in both mediums.

In the anime they didn't even bothered to show it, a key moment for Trunks in the arc. Seriously, he transforms and is all cool and stuff. Says "go, I'll hold them"; cliffhanger. Next episode he escaped..., somehow and I guess that's it. It's awful!

I don't really see what the big issue with this. The significance of the scene isn't to demonstrate the exact circumstances of how Future Trunks escaped, because then you'd have to start questioning how Future Trunks manages to stay alive for all the times he fought Goku Black when he came arrived in his timeline. The importance of the scene is to demonstrate the severity of the scenario with Goku Black and Zamasu and the how much Future Trunks was willing to continue to fight even with the odds against him, so that Goku and Vegeta can figure out a way to defeat Goku Black. It's much like how Future Trunks rushes off to fight the Androids in the the HOS TV special chapter and then gets decimated... but somehow manages to survive and decides it would be best to go back to the past. Hell, in the Trunks: The Story manga chapter, the fight between him and the Androids happens off-panel and they immediately cut to Future Trunks recovering in a bed. The same thing happens in the anime.

[LightBing]

Look at him sacrificing himself so that Goku and Vegeta escape, a plot point which should definitely be from Mr.Toriyama since it's present in both mediums.

In the anime they didn't even bothered to show it, a key moment for Trunks in the arc. Seriously, he transforms and is all cool and stuff. Says "go, I'll hold them"; cliffhanger. Next episode he escaped..., somehow and I guess that's it. It's awful!

I don't really see what the big issue with this. The significance of the scene isn't to demonstrate the exact circumstances of how Future Trunks escaped, because then you'd have to start questioning how Future Trunks manages to stay alive for all the times he fought Goku Black when he came arrived in his timeline. The importance of the scene is to demonstrate the severity of the scenario with Goku Black and Zamasu and the how much Future Trunks was willing to continue to fight even with the odds against him, so that Goku and Vegeta can figure out a way to defeat Goku Black. It's much like how Future Trunks rushes off to fight the Androids in the the HOS TV special chapter and then gets decimated... but somehow manages to survive and decides it would be best to go back to the past. Hell, in the Trunks: The Story manga chapter, the fight between him and the Androids happens off-panel and they immediately cut to Future Trunks recovering in a bed. The same thing happens in the anime.

To me it's a huge issue. The writer(s) showed extreme disrespect towards the viewers. This isn't at all like Trunks chapter, which is a self-contained story and didn't force itself to show the fight you're referring to.

Super is a weekly show and they finished this episode with a cliffhanger. They committed themselves to follow up or to subvert expectations. They did neither. It was omitted plain and simple.

To make it worse in the next episode Black and Zamasu are relaxing drinking tea in their vacation house, which shortly after has Trunks show up to continue the fight. Which makes it pretty obvious they had not bloody idea how to write themselves out of that situation.
A situation in which the villains are in full evil mode, they build it up in such a way that Trunks escaping was a miracle and therefore you better show it.
You just can't erase the sense of urgency and motivation the villains had and start the following episode as if nothing happened. If you wrote yourself into a corner do damage control, don't double down on it.

And yes this furthers the problem of how the hell did Trunks escape Black so many times. Putting the cherry on top of (Anime)Black as the most incompetent villain in all of Dragon Ball. Something we have to question, I can only accept Trunks escaping a limited number of times before my suspense of disbelief is broken.

Trunks sacrifice is still in there, which is the point of the scene but they downgrade it extremely. You don't care about it, you don't remember it. It's just stuff that happened in the arc, like a bunch of other stuff that happened there which ultimately is a mass of bad writing with awesome moments here and there.

Seriously re-watch the episode where Trunks transforms and the one after that. If you don't see any problem with it, then there's no point in having a discussion with me. Our expectations are too far apart for us to reach any understanding beyond agree to disagree.

[perucho1990]

To me it's a huge issue. The writer(s) showed extreme disrespect towards the viewers. This isn't at all like Trunks chapter, which is a self-contained story and didn't force itself to show the fight you're referring to.

Super is a weekly show and they finished this episode with a cliffhanger. They committed themselves to follow up or to subvert expectations. They did neither. It was omitted plain and simple.

To make it worse in the next episode Black and Zamasu are relaxing drinking tea in their vacation house, which shortly after has Trunks show up to continue the fight. Which makes it pretty obvious they had not bloody idea how to write themselves out of that situation.
A situation in which the villains are in full evil mode, they build it up in such a way that Trunks escaping was a miracle and therefore you better show it.
You just can't erase the sense of urgency and motivation the villains had and start the following episode as if nothing happened. If you wrote yourself into a corner do damage control, don't double down on it.

And yes this furthers the problem of how the hell did Trunks escape Black so many times. Putting the cherry on top of (Anime)Black as the most incompetent villain in all of Dragon Ball. Something we have to question, I can only accept Trunks escaping a limited number of times before my suspense of disbelief is broken.

Trunks sacrifice is still in there, which is the point of the scene but they downgrade it extremely. You don't care about it, you don't remember it. It's just stuff that happened in the arc, like a bunch of other stuff that happened there which ultimately is a mass of bad writing with awesome moments here and there.

Seriously re-watch the episode where Trunks transforms and the one after that. If you don't see any problem with it, then there's no point in having a discussion with me. Our expectations are too far apart for us to reach any understanding beyond agree to disagree.

It really wasnt.

Trunks likely overwhelmed both Black and Zamasu, to the point they decided to retreat while Trunks ended up unconscious because he ended up worn out after using Ikari, there i fixed it.

[LightBing]

It really wasnt.

Trunks likely overwhelmed both Black and Zamasu, to the point they decided to retreat while Trunks ended up unconscious because he ended up worn out after using Ikari, there i fixed it.

Are you trolling me? Honest question.

Are you saying it wasn't omitted yet you are offering an explanation to fix it? I don't understand.
An explanation contradictory to the story. Not only was Black still stronger than Trunks but Zamasu literally is immortal. He has no reasons to retreat and the characters where never shown to be in that mind set, they were actually in full "kill ningen mode". The heroes were the ones always retreating at every opportunity.
Black also had literal plot armour, he healed and grew stronger every second.

So I ask again are you trolling me? Because you're answer certainly looks like it.

[perucho1990]

In the manga, Trunks got easily overwhelmed by Black and Zamasu(Funny is that Black wanted to kill him asap yet he spent the time punch him to death instead of blasting him). in the anime, Trunks could stop Black/Zamasu combo attack and he was overwhelming them.

Hell, Trunks lost to them because Black had to sneak attack him.

[LightBing]

Why are you bringing the manga into the conversation when we are discussing the anime?
Him overwhelming them is very much debatable, I for one disagree completely. There's back-and-forth but ultimately Trunks is still very much at a disadvantage.

If your explanation fits for you, great! Different people, different opinions.

You know, just forget it. I don't see any dividends from continuing this discussion with you. We are too far apart in perspectives, there's nothing to be gained.

[Lord Beerus]

Look at him sacrificing himself so that Goku and Vegeta escape, a plot point which should definitely be from Mr.Toriyama since it's present in both mediums.

In the anime they didn't even bothered to show it, a key moment for Trunks in the arc. Seriously, he transforms and is all cool and stuff. Says "go, I'll hold them"; cliffhanger. Next episode he escaped..., somehow and I guess that's it. It's awful!

I don't really see what the big issue with this. The significance of the scene isn't to demonstrate the exact circumstances of how Future Trunks escaped, because then you'd have to start questioning how Future Trunks manages to stay alive for all the times he fought Goku Black when he came arrived in his timeline. The importance of the scene is to demonstrate the severity of the scenario with Goku Black and Zamasu and the how much Future Trunks was willing to continue to fight even with the odds against him, so that Goku and Vegeta can figure out a way to defeat Goku Black. It's much like how Future Trunks rushes off to fight the Androids in the the HOS TV special chapter and then gets decimated... but somehow manages to survive and decides it would be best to go back to the past. Hell, in the Trunks: The Story manga chapter, the fight between him and the Androids happens off-panel and they immediately cut to Future Trunks recovering in a bed. The same thing happens in the anime.

To me it's a huge issue. The writer(s) showed extreme disrespect towards the viewers. This isn't at all like Trunks chapter, which is a self-contained story and didn't force itself to show the fight you're referring to.

Super is a weekly show and they finished this episode with a cliffhanger. They committed themselves to follow up or to subvert expectations. They did neither. It was omitted plain and simple.

To make it worse in the next episode Black and Zamasu are relaxing drinking tea in their vacation house, which shortly after has Trunks show up to continue the fight. Which makes it pretty obvious they had not bloody idea how to write themselves out of that situation.
A situation in which the villains are in full evil mode, they build it up in such a way that Trunks escaping was a miracle and therefore you better show it.
You just can't erase the sense of urgency and motivation the villains had and start the following episode as if nothing happened. If you wrote yourself into a corner do damage control, don't double down on it.

And yes this furthers the problem of how the hell did Trunks escape Black so many times. Putting the cherry on top of (Anime)Black as the most incompetent villain in all of Dragon Ball. Something we have to question, I can only accept Trunks escaping a limited number of times before my suspense of disbelief is broken.

Trunks sacrifice is still in there, which is the point of the scene but they downgrade it extremely. You don't care about it, you don't remember it. It's just stuff that happened in the arc, like a bunch of other stuff that happened there which ultimately is a mass of bad writing with awesome moments here and there.

Seriously re-watch the episode where Trunks transforms and the one after that. If you don't see any problem with it, then there's no point in having a discussion with me. Our expectations are too far apart for us to reach any understanding beyond agree to disagree.

The episode doesn't end the cliffhanger of Future Trunks holding his ground against SSJR Goku and Zamasu. It ends on Goku learning the Mafuba which in itself is the far more crucial plot point than Future Trunks fate in the future. Goku even comments that they have to leave Future Trunks behind so that they have a better chance of defeating Black and Zamasu. The empahsis isn't "Man, I wonder how Future Trunks will survive?" Because we've already been treated to cases in the past were manged to escape death from Goku Black and/or Zamasu in seemingly impossible circumstances.

Future Mai even states, after she is given a bag of senzu by Vegeta and before Goku, Vegeta and Bulma go back to the past, that she'll watch over Future Trunks and we've seen her in the past use flash-bangs and mustard gas as distractions to aid Future Trunks to safety when he's in a tight spot, with Future Yajirobe and other resistance fighter jumping in in to also get him out of a bad spot and back into the hideout. I mean we even see some the remaining humans organize a trap to crush Goku Black under a series of buildings, so they certainly come prepared for any kind of confrontation with Goku Black. There is nothing to imply the same scenario didn't happen in the between Episode 62 and 63 and there's really no to suggestion that Future Trunks couldn't have survived that kind of scenario because he's been those kind of tough spots in the past and we've seen on several occasion how he's managed survive for another day with the help of other. So I don't know why now it's suddenly a big issue. And the fact that Goku Black and Zamasu are at they vacation house, would imply that Future Trunks just manged to escape and return to humans hideout with the aid of Mai and other humans, despite being injured, just like several other occasions in the past. As a matter of fact, Future Yajirobe pretty much states that what happened before he tells them that after Mai took his injured body to the human hideout, she found Goku Black and Zamasu hideout and went to try and kill him. And after Future Trunks recovered from eating a senzu, he went to find Mai and fought Goku Black again.

The importance of Future Trunks "sacrifice" isn't so that we see something that we've seen before (Future Trunks surviving) or to witness exactly how bad Future Trunks gets beaten up by Goku Black and/or Zamasu. The point of that moment was the statement of intent that Future Trunks hold his ground fight against Goku Black and Zamasu while Goku and Vegeta thought of way of defeating Goku Black. Besides, we already see that Future Trunks is stronger enough, with his new form, to stand a better chance of fighting against Goku Black and Zamasu than before. He actually fight evenly with SSJR Goku Black before Zamasu join the battle and double Future Trunks with SSJR Goku Black and turn the battle in their favor. It's not as if Future Trunks stated that he expected he was going to die or implied that he didn't think he would win, which would set up a much more explicit and less subtle scenario of Future Trunks "sacrificing" himself to ensure that Goku and Vegeta make it back to the past. But the scenario isn't really like that at all. Future Trunks made himself know to Goku Black and Zamasu that he was their opponent now that Goku and Vegeta had returned to the past. Showing that he was confident he was resolute in his power. I personally think you're reading too deeply into the whole moment of Future Trunks "sacrifice".

[LightBing]

The episode doesn't end the cliffhanger of Future Trunks holding his ground against SSJR Goku and Zamasu. It ends on Goku learning the Mafuba which in itself is the far more crucial plot point than Future Trunks fate in the future. Goku even comments that they have to leave Future Trunks behind so that they have a better chance of defeating Black and Zamasu. The empahsis isn't "Man, I wonder how Future Trunks will survive?" Because we've already been treated to cases in the past were manged to escape death from Goku Black and/or Zamasu in seemingly impossible circumstances.

Future Mai even states, after she is given a bag of senzu by Vegeta and before Goku, Vegeta and Bulma go back to the past, that she'll watch over Future Trunks and we've seen her in the past use flash-bangs and mustard gas as distractions to aid Future Trunks to safety when he's in a tight spot, with Future Yajirobe and other resistance fighter jumping in in to also get him out of a bad spot and back into the hideout. I mean we even see some the remaining humans organize a trap to crush Goku Black under a series of buildings, so they certainly come prepared for any kind of confrontation with Goku Black. There is nothing to imply the same scenario didn't happen in the between Episode 62 and 63 and there's really no to suggestion that Future Trunks couldn't have survived that kind of scenario because he's been those kind of tough spots in the past and we've seen on several occasion how he's managed survive for another day with the help of other. So I don't know why now it's suddenly a big issue. And the fact that Goku Black and Zamasu are at they vacation house, would imply that Future Trunks just manged to escape and return to humans hideout with the aid of Mai and other humans, despite being injured, just like several other occasions in the past. As a matter of fact, Future Yajirobe pretty much states that what happened before he tells them that after Mai took his injured body to the human hideout, she found Goku Black and Zamasu hideout and went to try and kill him. And after Future Trunks recovered from eating a senzu, he went to find Mai and fought Goku Black again.

The importance of Future Trunks "sacrifice" isn't so that we see something that we've seen before (Future Trunks surviving) or to witness exactly how bad Future Trunks gets beaten up by Goku Black and/or Zamasu. The point of that moment was the statement of intent that Future Trunks hold his ground fight against Goku Black and Zamasu while Goku and Vegeta thought of way of defeating Goku Black. Besides, we already see that Future Trunks is stronger enough, with his new form, to stand a better chance of fighting against Goku Black and Zamasu than before. He actually fight evenly with SSJR Goku Black before Zamasu join the battle and double Future Trunks with SSJR Goku Black and turn the battle in their favor. It's not as if Future Trunks stated that he expected he was going to die or implied that he didn't think he would win, which would set up a much more explicit and less subtle scenario of Future Trunks "sacrificing" himself to ensure that Goku and Vegeta make it back to the past. But the scenario isn't really like that at all. Future Trunks made himself know to Goku Black and Zamasu that he was their opponent now that Goku and Vegeta had returned to the past. Showing that he was confident he was resolute in his power. I personally think you're reading too deeply into the whole moment of Future Trunks "sacrifice".

Yeah I misremembered. It's a cliffhanger but it's not at the end of the episode. I still stand by what I wrote, I admit I've been painting a darker picture than it actually is. That's how much I dislike the development.

This isn't suddenly a big issue, it was a recurring problem in this arc. Borderline ridiculous escapes and plot points, which I can accept in certain amounts, this is Dragon Ball and I know what I sign up for. The problem is they abused and abused it, here they didn't even delivered them, which is why I call it a lack of respect towards the viewer.

Let's go along with your theory that the humans had part in it, again. Doesn't this just degrade even more Black's character to you? At which point do you lose all respect for the character when he's at the same time invincible, always growing stronger and healing no matter the beating and so utterly incompetent to let everyone slide through his fingers again and again and again and again.

It's impossible to take the writing serious. Trunks challenges Black somewhat, yet Black as a villain is untouchable and don't tell they didn't write Black like that. Something has gotta give in.
This plot point can't be taken so lightly the way the series was presented, they had to give us something and not a line in the following episode how Mai took him to the hideout.

I deviated from the Trunks focal point, the scene still shows Trunks willingness to fight and that's fine and all. It's just so damn forgettable, when it should be more relevant since Goku and Vegeta, like you said went back to find a way to win. If Trunks didn't do this supposedly they would all be dead, that's why even with senzus they didn't continue fighting. They present the situation as helpless, Trunks was helpless but you know he was cool for a bit.

It's frustrating when you want to believe there's internal logic going on and it's not all the whim of some Japanese man in a office. It takes away your immersion.

[OLKv3]

I'm slightly worried worried about how Toyo'll handle Kale. While in the anime her introduction and likeness to Broly could've been obviously handled a lot better, I feel Toyo will either not introduce her or heavily change her design/character to the point where she's basically an average U6 Saiyan with maybe a mutation that discolors her hair and makes her slightly stronger than your average SSJ (though thinking about it now, it doesn't seem all that bad. But I doubt it'll turn out good if it happens).

I don't know why you think that, look at how Toyo handled Broly in AF. Kale will be fine.

[Lord Beerus]

The episode doesn't end the cliffhanger of Future Trunks holding his ground against SSJR Goku and Zamasu. It ends on Goku learning the Mafuba which in itself is the far more crucial plot point than Future Trunks fate in the future. Goku even comments that they have to leave Future Trunks behind so that they have a better chance of defeating Black and Zamasu. The empahsis isn't "Man, I wonder how Future Trunks will survive?" Because we've already been treated to cases in the past were manged to escape death from Goku Black and/or Zamasu in seemingly impossible circumstances.

Future Mai even states, after she is given a bag of senzu by Vegeta and before Goku, Vegeta and Bulma go back to the past, that she'll watch over Future Trunks and we've seen her in the past use flash-bangs and mustard gas as distractions to aid Future Trunks to safety when he's in a tight spot, with Future Yajirobe and other resistance fighter jumping in in to also get him out of a bad spot and back into the hideout. I mean we even see some the remaining humans organize a trap to crush Goku Black under a series of buildings, so they certainly come prepared for any kind of confrontation with Goku Black. There is nothing to imply the same scenario didn't happen in the between Episode 62 and 63 and there's really no suggestion that Future Trunks couldn't have survived that kind of scenario because he's been those kind of tough spots in the past and we've seen on several occasion how he's managed survive for another day with the help of other. So I don't know why now it's suddenly a big issue. And the fact that Goku Black and Zamasu are at they vacation house, would imply that Future Trunks just manged to escape and return to humans hideout with the aid of Mai and other humans, despite being injured, just like several other occasions in the past. As a matter of fact, Future Yajirobe pretty much states that what happened before he tells them that after Mai took his injured body to the human hideout, she found Goku Black and Zamasu hideout and went to try and kill him. And after Future Trunks recovered from eating a senzu, he went to find Mai and fought Goku Black again.

The importance of Future Trunks "sacrifice" isn't so that we see something that we've seen before (Future Trunks surviving) or to witness exactly how bad Future Trunks gets beaten up by Goku Black and/or Zamasu. The point of that moment was the statement of intent that Future Trunks hold his ground fight against Goku Black and Zamasu while Goku and Vegeta thought of way of defeating Goku Black. Besides, we already see that Future Trunks is strong enough, with his new form, to stand a better chance of fighting against Goku Black and Zamasu than before. He actually fights evenly with SSJR Goku Black before Zamasu join the battle and double team Future Trunks with SSJR Goku Black and turn the battle in their favor. It's not as if Future Trunks stated that he expected he was going to die or implied that he didn't think he would win, which would set up a much more explicit and less subtle scenario of Future Trunks "sacrificing" himself to ensure that Goku and Vegeta make it back to the past. But the scenario isn't really like that at all. Future Trunks made himself know to Goku Black and Zamasu that he was their opponent now that Goku and Vegeta had returned to the past. Showing that he was confident he was resolute in his power. I personally think you're reading too deeply into the whole moment of Future Trunks "sacrifice".

Yeah I misremembered. It's a cliffhanger but it's not at the end of the episode. I still stand by what I wrote, I admit I've been painting a darker picture than it actually is. That's how much I dislike the development.

This isn't suddenly a big issue, it was a recurring problem in this arc. Borderline ridiculous escapes and plot points, which I can accept in certain amounts, this is Dragon Ball and I know what I sign up for. The problem is they abused and abused it, here they didn't even delivered them, which is why I call it a lack of respect towards the viewer.

Let's go along with your theory that the humans had part in it, again. Doesn't this just degrade even more Black's character to you? At which point do you lose all respect for the character when he's at the same time invincible, always growing stronger and healing no matter the beating and so utterly incompetent to let everyone slide through his fingers again and again and again and again.

It's impossible to take the writing serious. Trunks challenges Black somewhat, yet Black as a villain is untouchable and don't tell they didn't write Black like that. Something has gotta give in.
This plot point can't be taken so lightly the way the series was presented, they had to give us something and not a line in the following episode how Mai took him to the hideout.

I deviated from the Trunks focal point, the scene still shows Trunks willingness to fight and that's fine and all. It's just so damn forgettable, when it should be more relevant since Goku and Vegeta, like you said went back to find a way to win. If Trunks didn't do this supposedly they would all be dead, that's why even with senzus they didn't continue fighting. They present the situation as helpless, Trunks was helpless but you know he was cool for a bit.

It's frustrating when you want to believe there's internal logic going on and it's not all the whim of some Japanese man in a office. It takes away your immersion.

You bring up some fair points.

But I don't really agree with the notion of Goku Black character being downgraded or incompetent or not being written as properly as "untouchable."

When we see the humans lay the trap for Goku Black and detonate the destroyed buildings to crush him, he just smiles evilly smiled before being "crushed" by the buildings. He then emerged from the rubble, completely unscathed, and even mocked the humans for thinking that such a primitive trap could defeat him. He actually, on top of that, managed to spin that scenario to use as a rhetoric for explaining how humans lack intelligence and is just one of the reasons why they should be destroyed by him. It's a wonderful moment because it embodies everything great about the character (in the anime). Goku Black knew what he was doing. He was toying with humans the whole time, getting their hopes up just to crush them and berate them. And even before the trap went off, he killed several humans, so it shows he still had his pragmatic side. He just wanted to make them suffer before putting them out of their misery. He has a very sadistic streak, much like Freeza. And at every opportunity, he will find a "justification" for his Zero Mortals Plan.

And in terms of being untouchable... Goku Black does retain that aura throughout. He never actually decisively loses in a one-on-one fight. And the only time he was really on the ropes was when he fought SSJB Vegeta in EP63. But it that occasion it's actually justified given Vegeta legitimately got much stronger. And even then he uses that moment to turn the tide in his favour. So even in the situation where another character gets an advantage over him in a fight, he can still somehow make a scenario where he is still on top. Goku Black's character still had the unique quirk of, "If he 'wins' he 'wins'. And if he 'loses' he 'loses'."

I personally don't find the escape ridiculous and the only plot points I have an issue with is the Genki Dama Sword, Zamasu merging with the universe and Future Trunks exclusive rage based Super Saiyan form. But even then, the Genki Dama Sword works in a thematic sense and Future Trunks SSJI form has some precedence with Vegeta's SSJ2 rage moment in the BOG arc and with the way Gohan became a SSJ2 initially. To each and their own, I guess.

[Kanassa]

But I don't really agree with the notion of Goku Black character being downgraded or incompetent or not being written as properly as "untouchable."

Really, I think this is the mark of a well balanced villain. He should have failures, he should have moments where characters are able to get a hit in on him or get the drop on him, or else he becomes boring. He needs to have feats that show off how much of a threat he is, but he also needs though few moments that make it believable that he can be defeated. In the anime, true to his personalities, he kept this threat because even in failure he tried to turn every situation into addition to his cause, another reason that he is so righteous. Making it more entertaining the further he gets pushed, before culminating in Vegeta beating him down and Zamasu getting sealed. In the manga, Black is never taken seriously because of how his actions make even his victories a joke because of just how damn whiny and pathetic he is.

[LightBing]

All my commentary on Anime Black doesn't deny he's much, much more compelling than his manga.
My only problem is the writing, from very early it's established he has plot armour. Even in the moments he's behind, you never feel like he's going to lose. That's why Trunks, Goku and Vegeta constantly escaping damages him.

He's perfect and at the same time unbelievably flawed in this one quality, leaving his prey escape. Like when Trunks escapes, both him and Zamasu are already fully motivated go finish their zero-humans plan. There's no excuse for Trunks to be able to escape with the power of friendship and humans with smoke grenades and snipers. That's all I have to say about it.

He's still charismatic and incredibility entertaining. Kudos for making him influenced by Goku's Saiyan instincts, I wish Toyotarõ went with that. Since it's something I totally buy as an explanation for his personality change from regular Zamasu.
While Manga Black is well written, he doesn't have the stride Anime Black has. He's basically an insecure pre-teen, which let's be honest fits like a glove. The Zero-Humans plans is something I see some overly fluffed 13 years old come up with.