Which was because the writers didn't want him to, something I hope the manga changes. There were 60 new characters, there's no excuse for him & Vegeta to not get at least 3 good fights and wins before being knocked out by Jiren.
Goku saved Hit when he got double teamed. In the one-on-one match, Hit won against Dypso and Dypso needed saving. Goku also only helped keep the other guy off of him as he smashed Dypso again. There is nothing wrong about Hit being saved since even Goku got his butt saved several times. Heck, Hit indirectly saved Goku from Jiren since he attacked Jiren when he was trying to ring Goku out.
What writers? Goku and Hit having their rematch in the TOP would be far more hyped then 71 and 72, even though they were great episodes and gave Hit full range of his power. Meaning that Goku vs. Hit isn't likely in the outline. Toyo could give Goku and Hit rematch in the TOP, depending if Hit is destined to fight Jiren, but let's not pretend that the anime never gave the rematch even if it wasn't part of this arc.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.
#17 battle was better in the anime however his motivation is way better in the manga,i will take his scene where he remember krillin saving his life over a boring filler episode.
Lord Frieza wrote:
Well that is true but lets not forget that he was Goku's first real challenge and remained a secondary antagonist right up till near the end of the first arc, all be it a helpful one. Really he just suffers from the fact he was first and as such is at the very bottom of the pile of Goku's rivals.
Edit: Also the fact that he's very, very tame compared to literarily all the compation.
I bet Yamcha misses the days when he was the teams Vegeta.
Were gonna use this thread Lord frieza.
Very sad that yamcha is not given enough credit these day.I wish we had more rival like him sadly anime jiren is just your other stoic character which i want the manga to not fumble this.
The gr wrote:#17 battle was better in the anime however his motivation is way better in the manga,i will take his scene where he remember krillin saving his life over a boring filler episode.
Lord Frieza wrote:
Well that is true but lets not forget that he was Goku's first real challenge and remained a secondary antagonist right up till near the end of the first arc, all be it a helpful one. Really he just suffers from the fact he was first and as such is at the very bottom of the pile of Goku's rivals.
Edit: Also the fact that he's very, very tame compared to literarily all the compation.
I bet Yamcha misses the days when he was the teams Vegeta.
Were gonna use this thread Lord frieza.
Very sad that yamcha is not given enough credit these day.I wish we had more rival like him sadly anime jiren is just your other stoic character which i want the manga to not fumble this.
I'm going to say that I really like Jiren. His design, his fighting style, his fight etc but as it stand never in a million years would I try to convince anyone that his Anime incarnation at this current moment has a lot of character. I've said befor that Jiren is more force the an actual character. Infact he reminds me of Doomsday, very interesting to watch but you can sum up the guy in a sentence or two.
I really like the Superman vibe Manga Jiren has and I have high hopes for him.
Not that i hate anime Jiren,he work as a wall for Goku and like Doomsday he is very fun to watch when battling.I'm glad the anime and manga took diferent take on this character,if you don't like Mr nice man then you should watch a Force a nature vice versa.
The gr wrote:#17 battle was better in the anime however his motivation is way better in the manga,i will take his scene where he remember krillin saving his life over a boring filler episode.
Android 17's motivation for fighting in the TOP is the same in the manga as it is in the anime. He wants to use the Super Dragon Balls to wish for a giant boat that would cost too much money to buy.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
Lord Beerus wrote:
Android 17's motivation for fighting in the TOP is the same in the manga as it is in the anime. He wants to use the Super Dragon Balls to wish for a giant boat that would cost too much money to buy.
The gr wrote:#17 battle was better in the anime however his motivation is way better in the manga,i will take his scene where he remember krillin saving his life over a boring filler episode.
Android 17's motivation for fighting in the TOP is the same in the manga as it is in the anime. He wants to use the Super Dragon Balls to wish for a giant boat that would cost too much money to buy.
It's not the same. In the manga, it's a secondary reason. His main reason is to repay Krillin for removing his bomb
The gr wrote:#17 battle was better in the anime however his motivation is way better in the manga,i will take his scene where he remember krillin saving his life over a boring filler episode.
Android 17's motivation for fighting in the TOP is the same in the manga as it is in the anime. He wants to use the Super Dragon Balls to wish for a giant boat that would cost too much money to buy.
It's not the same. In the manga, it's a secondary reason. His main reason is to repay Krillin for removing his bomb
Funny enough, in the anime, #17 also remakes that he owes a certain someone something and decided to join the team, and then remarks what wish he'll grant with the Super Dragon Balls. But he doesn't actually refer to who the person that owes is. But he does ask if Krillin, who he refers to as his brother, is on the team, so it may be him he's referring to.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
I'm curious how the manga will tackle the recent anime development.
In the manga Goku and Vegeta are equals, there's no need for catching up. We might have another 10% Vegeta situation in our hands. There's also the chance Toei tinkered with this part.
17 was no doubt thinking of krillin, but they proly wanted the manga to say it. So they dont do the same thing.
Well on topic: About the FT arc, while i enjoy the power scaling in the chapter, since it makes sense, i loved that Toei gave Trunks a powerup and so forth. In the manga he was basically a spectator mostly. And that Toei made merged Zamasu be a bigger threat to our heroes than in the manga. Oh and that Zamasu crapped on nakama power, oh boy did i liked that.
LightBing wrote:I'm curious how the manga will tackle the recent anime development.
In the manga Goku and Vegeta are equals, there's no need for catching up. We might have another 10% Vegeta situation in our hands. There's also the chance Toei tinkered with this part.
In before Vegeta gets nothing new in the manga apart from perhaps some BP increase so he can keep Jiren at bay till Goku unlocks UI. Basically the kid buu saga.
Tho i am very curious how Toyotaru will handle it.
Lord Beerus wrote:
Android 17's motivation for fighting in the TOP is the same in the manga as it is in the anime. He wants to use the Super Dragon Balls to wish for a giant boat that would cost too much money to buy.
It's not the same. In the manga, it's a secondary reason. His main reason is to repay Krillin for removing his bomb
Funny enough, in the anime, #17 also remakes that he owes a certain someone something and decided to join the team, and then remarks what wish he'll grant with the Super Dragon Balls. But he doesn't actually refer to who the person that owes is. But he does ask if Krillin, who he refers to as his brother, is on the team, so it may be him he's referring to.
It's most likely the same thing then, since he doesn't tell Goku who it is in the manga either, we have the flashback to tell us this
If the flashback was in the anime then it'd make the alien plot pointless motivation, so I'd see why they didn't mention who
Well we see in the manga Krillin is out of shape ex fighter. No into the woods to regain his fighting spirit. Goku was not excited to recruit him. More excited for 18. No solar flare ×100. Its clear to see why Krillin would be first out in the tournament. Its really pathetic that Toei hyped this character up so much for no reason. They threw power scale out thw window. So many more productive story lines could have happened than the three filler episodes of Krillin.
perucho1990 wrote:Toei cant do much when they are restricted by Toriyamas outline.
No,they can.We have seen it with hit and black arc.There is also nothing stopping them to ask toriyama to change the outline for a better story,he has already said that he does not mind it.If toyotaro can do that so can toei.
Why power levels are important?
Spoiler:
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
LightBing wrote:I'm curious how the manga will tackle the recent anime development.
In the manga Goku and Vegeta are equals, there's no need for catching up.
There's nothing to handle cause they are equals. I think the reason he's getting this power up is because Toriyama's outline says they fight as equals but Toei messed that up by introducing the Kaioken so early, something that wasn't in Toriyama's plot so they're having to go around it now.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.
perucho1990 wrote:Toei cant do much when they are restricted by Toriyamas outline.
No,they can.We have seen it with hit and black arc.There is also nothing stopping them to ask toriyama to change the outline for a better story,he has already said that he does not mind it.If toyotaro can do that so can toei.
Toyotaro and TOEI are on record stating that they do not change Toriyama's outline. Both groups stories get from A to B as Toriyama laid it down.
They only can suggest changes but are allowed to fill in the details in Toriyama's outline.
People like to pretend Toriyama is non existent and TOEI and Toyotaro are just freelancing his series.
Seems like an agenda to pretend that the anime and manga aren't the same story just cause it hurts their fav characters power levels.
perucho1990 wrote:Toei cant do much when they are restricted by Toriyamas outline.
No,they can.We have seen it with hit and black arc.There is also nothing stopping them to ask toriyama to change the outline for a better story,he has already said that he does not mind it.If toyotaro can do that so can toei.
Toyotaro and TOEI are on record stating that they do not change Toriyama's outline. Both groups stories get from A to B as Toriyama laid it down.
They only can suggest changes but are allowed to fill in the details in Toriyama's outline.
People like to pretend Toriyama is non existent and TOEI and Toyotaro are just freelancing his series.
Seems like an agenda to pretend that the anime and manga aren't the same story just cause it hurts their fav characters power levels.
But, there are noticeable differences. For example, the manga doesn't have Kuririn's return to form before the tournament. Though its more than safe to say they follow the same outline, I think its also safe to say that Toei and Toyotaro interpret the outline in different ways, which is why there are a lot of glaring differences in the portrayal of the characters between the anime and the manga.
Hawk9211 wrote:[spoiler][/spoiler]
No,they can.We have seen it with hit and black arc.There is also nothing stopping them to ask toriyama to change the outline for a better story,he has already said that he does not mind it.If toyotaro can do that so can toei.
Toyotaro and TOEI are on record stating that they do not change Toriyama's outline. Both groups stories get from A to B as Toriyama laid it down.
They only can suggest changes but are allowed to fill in the details in Toriyama's outline.
People like to pretend Toriyama is non existent and TOEI and Toyotaro are just freelancing his series.
Seems like an agenda to pretend that the anime and manga aren't the same story just cause it hurts their fav characters power levels.
But, there are noticeable differences. For example, the manga doesn't have Kuririn's return to form before the tournament. Though its more than safe to say they follow the same outline, I think its also safe to say that Toei and Toyotaro interpret the outline in different ways, which is why there are a lot of glaring differences in the portrayal of the characters between the anime and the manga.
Did the tournament begin already in the manga? People are already "interpreting" Krillin not getting in shape. Just like many jumped the gun on the gods and Kaioshin being a set "manga only." Here comes Toei later with the same plot.
Miracles wrote:
Toyotaro and TOEI are on record stating that they do not change Toriyama's outline. Both groups stories get from A to B as Toriyama laid it down.
They only can suggest changes but are allowed to fill in the details in Toriyama's outline.
People like to pretend Toriyama is non existent and TOEI and Toyotaro are just freelancing his series.
Seems like an agenda to pretend that the anime and manga aren't the same story just cause it hurts their fav characters power levels.
But, there are noticeable differences. For example, the manga doesn't have Kuririn's return to form before the tournament. Though its more than safe to say they follow the same outline, I think its also safe to say that Toei and Toyotaro interpret the outline in different ways, which is why there are a lot of glaring differences in the portrayal of the characters between the anime and the manga.
Did the tournament begin already in the manga? People are already "interpreting" Krillin not getting in shape. Just like many jumped the gun on the gods and Kaioshin being a set "manga only." Here comes Toei later with the same plot.
Its a logical interpretation. Toei hyped up Krillin with 2 episodes if him regaining his power and conquering fear. Remember those power glowing fist he had? Then the episode where they choosing the fighters. Goku is so insistent that Krillin is a top guy to get. Then next episode. Have Krillin ring out Gohan under the same "I cant see, I cant sense" circumstances he just won under. On to Krillin vs Goku. Forcing him SS. Then a SSB beam clash.
Everyone and their mother predicted Krillin would go far in the tournament. The Anime kept hammering home strategy over strength. Right or wrong?
Then to have Krillin go out in the 2nd full episode of the arc. Doesnt make sense. Clearly follow an outline. What they do in between in a cluster inconsistent show. Akiras outline Krillin not training or not into training and has gotten soft. Because thats been a theme of his since BOG even Buu saga. What else is in Akiras outline is in which order the characters are eliminated in. So when the manga gets to that point it would be a build up of what made sense.