Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

[LightBing]

I think you are being a bit too literal here. It's not Trunks' arc because it's named as such, it's his arc because:

It's his world that is in peril;
He is the one who has the only significant losses;
Toriyama very clearly intented for him to have some direct role with regards to fighting, seeing as his OP SS2 is present in both versions;
He is the one that makes the sacrifice for Goku and Vegeta to go back to the past and come up with a plan to handle Black & Zamasu;
He is the one that effectively dooms his own world;
The finale of the arc, unlike the Cell arc where Trunks' farewell is more of a formality than anything, relies completely on Trunks to function, not on Goku and Vegeta.

Yes, the "It should focus on Trunks because it's named FT arc" is too reductive to be accepted as a proper critique, but it's far from completely unfounded.

The manga touched upon everything you mentioned above, with the exception of him dooming his own World(something exclusive to the anime). Naming arcs is a bit arbitrary, I myself would name this arc Zamasu Arc, you could name it Fallen God Arc, Save the Timelines Arc, etc... That's not the point.

The point is people choose to ignore the content and latch on to this rhetoric to criticize his role on the manga. As it turns out their only point is brought down when Mr.Toriyama gave limited focus to the character(enough to still have him be important), with both the anime and Toyotarõ stretching his role.

The manga didn't hold Trunks back in his own arc, it did exactly what it needed and more.

[KuririnNoKotoKa]

I think you are being a bit too literal here. It's not Trunks' arc because it's named as such, it's his arc because:

It's his world that is in peril;
He is the one who has the only significant losses;
Toriyama very clearly intented for him to have some direct role with regards to fighting, seeing as his OP SS2 is present in both versions;
He is the one that makes the sacrifice for Goku and Vegeta to go back to the past and come up with a plan to handle Black & Zamasu;
He is the one that effectively dooms his own world;
The finale of the arc, unlike the Cell arc where Trunks' farewell is more of a formality than anything, relies completely on Trunks to function, not on Goku and Vegeta.

Yes, the "It should focus on Trunks because it's named FT arc" is too reductive to be accepted as a proper critique, but it's far from completely unfounded.

The manga touched upon everything you mentioned above, with the exception of him dooming his own World(something exclusive to the anime). Naming arcs is a bit arbitrary, I myself would name this arc Zamasu Arc, you could name it Fallen God Arc, Save the Timelines Arc, etc... That's not the point.

The point is people choose to ignore the content and latch on to this rhetoric to criticize his role on the manga. As it turns out their only point is brought down when Mr.Toriyama gave limited focus to the character(enough to still have him be important), with both the anime and Toyotarõ stretching his role.

The manga didn't hold Trunks back in his own arc, it did exactly what it needed and more.

Trunks cutting Zamasu in half is what kicks of the manga version of Infinite Zamasu. The only difference from the anime's version is Vegeta further escalating it. Toyotaro even goes as far as having an entire page dedicated to setting up the situation as if Trunks saved the Earth before blowing it up in his face too:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

I honestly don't see how you can say that isn't an attempt at putting the weight of failure on Trunks. Add in the farewell, which is very similar to the anime, and the extra pages Toyotaro wrote with Gohan.

As I said in my initial comment, none of this would be an issue if Toyotaro had Goku take the lead role in his version of the story, but Son has been such a clusterfuck of a character, while at the same time being a nothing, under his pen that maybe it's for the best.

Toriyama's role in this is completely irrelevant because he isn't writing either version of the story. Hell, the man barely seems to care about what either creative team does with his ideas as long as the bare bone bits with Goku are there.

[TheMikado]

I think you are being a bit too literal here. It's not Trunks' arc because it's named as such, it's his arc because:

It's his world that is in peril;
He is the one who has the only significant losses;
Toriyama very clearly intented for him to have some direct role with regards to fighting, seeing as his OP SS2 is present in both versions;
He is the one that makes the sacrifice for Goku and Vegeta to go back to the past and come up with a plan to handle Black & Zamasu;
He is the one that effectively dooms his own world;
The finale of the arc, unlike the Cell arc where Trunks' farewell is more of a formality than anything, relies completely on Trunks to function, not on Goku and Vegeta.

Yes, the "It should focus on Trunks because it's named FT arc" is too reductive to be accepted as a proper critique, but it's far from completely unfounded.

The manga touched upon everything you mentioned above, with the exception of him dooming his own World(something exclusive to the anime). Naming arcs is a bit arbitrary, I myself would name this arc Zamasu Arc, you could name it Fallen God Arc, Save the Timelines Arc, etc... That's not the point.

The point is people choose to ignore the content and latch on to this rhetoric to criticize his role on the manga. As it turns out their only point is brought down when Mr.Toriyama gave limited focus to the character(enough to still have him be important), with both the anime and Toyotarõ stretching his role.

The manga didn't hold Trunks back in his own arc, it did exactly what it needed and more.

Trunks cutting Zamasu in half is what kicks of the manga version of Infinite Zamasu. The only difference from the anime's version is Vegeta further escalating it. Toyotaro even goes as far as having an entire page dedicated to setting up the situation as if Trunks saved the Earth before blowing it up in his face too:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

I honestly don't see how you can say that isn't an attempt at putting the weight of failure on Trunks. Add in the farewell, which is very similar to the anime, and the extra pages Toyotaro wrote with Gohan.

As I said in my initial comment, none of this would be an issue if Toyotaro had Goku take the lead role in his version of the story, but Son has been such a clusterfuck of a character, while at the same time being a nothing, under his pen that maybe it's for the best.

Toriyama's role in this is completely irrelevant because he isn't writing either version of the story. Hell, the man barely seems to care about what either creative team does with his ideas as long as the bare bone bits with Goku are there.

The best way for me to summarize this is that the entire arc sucked and lack true direction is because the original source didn't seem to give a crap and thus we got garbage in and garbage out. Its just a matter of which garbage you think smell less.

[perucho1990]

In conclusion GT has done permanent damage to Gokus character which is why there are lot of people disliking having arcs centered on Goku these days.

How Toyo is doing with Jirens character is already a step in the right direction, no more dumb stuff like Kiero, Doke, Warida.

[LightBing]

I think you are being a bit too literal here. It's not Trunks' arc because it's named as such, it's his arc because:

It's his world that is in peril;
He is the one who has the only significant losses;
Toriyama very clearly intented for him to have some direct role with regards to fighting, seeing as his OP SS2 is present in both versions;
He is the one that makes the sacrifice for Goku and Vegeta to go back to the past and come up with a plan to handle Black & Zamasu;
He is the one that effectively dooms his own world;
The finale of the arc, unlike the Cell arc where Trunks' farewell is more of a formality than anything, relies completely on Trunks to function, not on Goku and Vegeta.

Yes, the "It should focus on Trunks because it's named FT arc" is too reductive to be accepted as a proper critique, but it's far from completely unfounded.

The manga touched upon everything you mentioned above, with the exception of him dooming his own World(something exclusive to the anime). Naming arcs is a bit arbitrary, I myself would name this arc Zamasu Arc, you could name it Fallen God Arc, Save the Timelines Arc, etc... That's not the point.

The point is people choose to ignore the content and latch on to this rhetoric to criticize his role on the manga. As it turns out their only point is brought down when Mr.Toriyama gave limited focus to the character(enough to still have him be important), with both the anime and Toyotarõ stretching his role.

The manga didn't hold Trunks back in his own arc, it did exactly what it needed and more.

Trunks cutting Zamasu in half is what kicks of the manga version of Infinite Zamasu. The only difference from the anime's version is Vegeta further escalating it. Toyotaro even goes as far as having an entire page dedicated to setting up the situation as if Trunks saved the Earth before blowing it up in his face too:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

I honestly don't see how you can say that isn't an attempt at putting the weight of failure on Trunks. Add in the farewell, which is very similar to the anime, and the extra pages Toyotaro wrote with Gohan.

As I said in my initial comment, none of this would be an issue if Toyotaro had Goku take the lead role in his version of the story, but Son has been such a clusterfuck of a character, while at the same time being a nothing, under his pen that maybe it's for the best.

Toriyama's role in this is completely irrelevant because he isn't writing either version of the story. Hell, the man barely seems to care about what either creative team does with his ideas as long as the bare bone bits with Goku are there.

I thought you were referencing when Goku Black literally said that it was all Trunks fault in the anime.

Yes Trunks is the reason for the last stage of Zamasu, I agree with that. This moment isn't "Trunks dooming his own World" that's dramatizing the action far too much. Otherwise you could say that of moments like Goku forgetting the seal or Vegeta not killing Goku Black immediately.

I don't agree with what you said about Mr.Toriyama. These are his stories, the anime and Toyotarõ are only adapting them. We have proof he supervises and corrects Toyotarõ a lot. Sometimes in little details.

[Cetra]

I don't agree with what you said about Mr.Toriyama. These are his stories, the anime and Toyotarõ are only adapting them. We have proof he supervises and corrects Toyotarõ a lot. Sometimes in little details.

If a person tells you "write a story that contains the details of these 5 pages" and you have to write 1000 pages then you are the actual author and it is more than "not your story". No one says core ideas provided are not relevant but you are understating their role here.

[Meshack]

I feel Toriyama wants more of Toyotarou and Toei Animation than he wants himself involved. It’s how Toyotarou and Toei approached the story. Toyotarou did better for the most part, Toei did better in some parts. Toyotarou did better in making Trunks relevant as much as he can without getting a power that doesn’t make sense. It makes everything come together with Trunks being a Kaiohshin apprentice and later saving Mye and Gowasu. Just giving him another form to be relevant really makes DragonBall more about power than skill to be relevant. I think that’s really where you get fans that think Trunks is more relevant in the anime than the manga. The anime had Trunks get this power and was able to compete with Black. Black was leagues above Vegeta and Gokuh somehow would Trunks be able to keep up with them? The manga also does better with the power aspect. Again with Trunks and stuff. Gokuh alone was able to push back a blast by Potara Zamasu... How? The manga also does better with all of the information given to us and even expands on this and actually has tension. With the Potara, Toyotarou actually revealed that Potara Zamasu had a timer also. The anime didn’t do anything of the sort. The anime had us believe that Zamasu became a Kaiohshin but he wasn’t. Zamasu was never actually promoted as a Kaiohshin and we know that Toriyama had the time limit as a factor for Potara Zamasu but the anime didn’t include it for some reason.

The anime also didn’t include Super Saiyan Black but Toriyama most likely wanted itin there since he said Black had a form similar to Gokuh and another one but what did we get? We got Normal Black taking attacks from Blue Vegeta... Okay... Now the tension, in the anime, Black blew up the first time machine, Trunks’s. For some reason, Toei felt the need to use... Cell’s time machine... Okay. Not that bad. When they go back into the future, Zamasu doesn’t even destroy the time machine. He just goes on fire and Bulma uses a fire extinguisher. If Zamasu didn’t want them going to the past, he would have actually destroyed it. He also would have killed Mye but for some reason Mye survived an attack from Black... Okay. That’s pretty bad. I could go on about how trash the anime is but some stuff, the anime does better. The anime is better with showcasing the personalities of Zamasu and Black: Zamasu feels he is above everyone and Black is power hungry. It also does better with emotional scenes because of the music and voice acting. That’s... pretty much it for the anime. Lol

[Meshack]

I don't agree with what you said about Mr.Toriyama. These are his stories, the anime and Toyotarõ are only adapting them. We have proof he supervises and corrects Toyotarõ a lot. Sometimes in little details.

If a person tells you "write a story that contains the details of these 5 pages" and you have to write 1000 pages then you are the actual author and it is more than "not your story". No one says core ideas provided are not relevant but you are understating their role here.

Toriyama gives an outline of a story arc and Toyotarou and Toei Animation fill it in. He gives the premise and everyone else gives their creative ideas. You can credit him as the author.

[LightBing]

I don't agree with what you said about Mr.Toriyama. These are his stories, the anime and Toyotarõ are only adapting them. We have proof he supervises and corrects Toyotarõ a lot. Sometimes in little details.

If a person tells you "write a story that contains the details of these 5 pages" and you have to write 1000 pages then you are the actual author and it is more than "not your story". No one says core ideas provided are not relevant but you are understating their role here.

That wasn't my intention, I just wanted to clarify the mistaken idea that Mr.Toriyama barely cares about Super.

Now I don't like the analogy of 5 pages to 1000, because we don't know how much is actually done by either party. Still credit is due to the anime writers and Toyotarõ, specially the latter. I still call Mr.Toriyama the author, since it's clear that - fighting aside - 90% of the relevant plot is his. It's his story.

Besides Toyotarõ and the anime writers suffer from sometimes blatantly copying the old manga, it's not like they are bursting with new and brilliant ideas.

[Cetra]

Toriyama gives an outline of a story arc and Toyotarou and Toei Animation fill it in. He gives the premise and everyone else gives their creative ideas. You can credit him as the author.

You have no idea how scenario writing works. The story writer is the one who has to actually provide the great amount of the story, it does not matter if someone presents him an outline, especially as that outline is multiple times stated as sparse. If you have to flesh out and actually write what and how that all is about it is your story. There is a reason why Toei writers are stated as the writers or why people like Kazushige Nojima are credited as "scenario writer" and not mainly the people who want him to implement some ideas they had. And a premise also does not make you the author. As a matter of fact it is an incredibly disrespectful thing and legally questionable that Toriyama-san is often also mentioned as the one for the story (like the German Super manga does) when Toyble still has to write the entire manga but it is smart marketing. It does not matter if Toriyama checks that. Toyble has to write that. If I have a person that checks my 1000 pages based on his wishes then I was still the one writing the 1000 pages.

90% of the relevant plot is his. It's his story.

But that is exactly not the case. He provides them with a barebones script. When the Zamasu arc or the Univeral Survival arc has so many scenes and episodes that actually stretched out by te writers, fleshed out, narratively expanded upon to think of ways of explaining xyz then the writers have to do a lot. That is far from 10%. And that is clearly noticable in arcs like the Zamasu/Future Trunks one. If he would provide 90% of the story then he would actually provide them with the biggest amount of writing for the 20 (or 30, depending on what we see the arc as) for the story. And he did not as we know from both the differences of manga/anime as well as the fact that he simply is not an actual writer of the anime and the anime itself has a lot of script (not to mention the way the Zamasu arc in the anime was written was written so un-Dragon Ball-deep that the influence of other authors can be clearly seen). I already mentioned the term "core ideas". That does not make him write 90% of the story. And also "90% relevant" is very very very much understating the role of the other writers. I am not saying he should not be credited in any writer role at all but it is already known that it is a sparse script. And I do not know what you are trying to achieve with the last line of your post because the writers gave the Zamasu arc for example some surprising effort for a normally pretty shallow show like Dragon Ball. And checking another author, sometimes correcting still does not make you the author. That would be equal to "you are doing everything you just do not literally want to write it all down so you are telling them all to write it down for you", which is not the case here. He is important as hell but he is not what people make him out to be.

[LightBing]

But that is exactly not the case. He provides them with a barebones script. When the Zamasu arc or the Univeral Survival arc has so many scenes and episodes that actually stretched out by te writers, fleshed out, narratively expanded upon to think of ways of explaining xyz then the writers have to do a lot. That is far from 10%. And that is clearly noticable in arcs like the Zamasu/Future Trunks one. If he would provide 90% of the story then he would actually provide them with the biggest amount of writing for the 20 (or 30, depending on what we see the arc as) for the story. And he did not as we know from both the differences of manga/anime as well as the fact that he simply is not an actual writer of the anime and the anime itself has a lot of script (not to mention the way the Zamasu arc in the anime was written was written so un-Dragon Ball-deep that the influence of other authors can be clearly seen). I already mentioned the term "core ideas". That does not make him write 90% of the story. And also "90% relevant" is very very very much understating the role of the other writers. I am not saying he should not be credited in any writer role at all but it is already known that it is a sparse script. And I do not know what you are trying to achieve with the last line of your post because the writers gave the Zamasu arc for example some surprising effort for a normally pretty shallow show like Dragon Ball. And checking another author, sometimes correcting still does not make you the author. That would be equal to "you are doing everything you just do not literally want to write it all down so you are telling them all to write it down for you", which is not the case here. He is important as hell but he is not what people make him out to be.

We don't know the level of detail the script has. I probably shouldn't throw percentages like I did, even if that's how I see it.

I see where you are coming from, I just don't agree with you in general. Moments of worthwhile writing separated from the - let's call it core story - are few, specially in the anime; there's a lot of fluff.

This discussion suffers by being built on assumptions. Maybe in a few years we'll know what was in the scripts.

[Meshack]

Toriyama gives an outline of a story arc and Toyotarou and Toei Animation fill it in. He gives the premise and everyone else gives their creative ideas. You can credit him as the author.

You have no idea how scenario writing works. The story writer is the one who has to actually provide the great amount of the story, it does not matter if someone presents him an outline, especially as that outline is multiple times stated as sparse. If you have to flesh out and actually write what and how that all is about it is your story. There is a reason why Toei writers are stated as the writers or why people like Kazushige Nojima are credited as "scenario writer" and not mainly the people who want him to implement some ideas they had. And a premise also does not make you the author. As a matter of fact it is an incredibly disrespectful thing and legally questionable that Toriyama-san is often also mentioned as the one for the story (like the German Super manga does) when Toyble still has to write the entire manga but it is smart marketing. It does not matter if Toriyama checks that. Toyble has to write that. If I have a person that checks my 1000 pages based on his wishes then I was still the one writing the 1000 pages.

90% of the relevant plot is his. It's his story.

But that is exactly not the case. He provides them with a barebones script. When the Zamasu arc or the Univeral Survival arc has so many scenes and episodes that actually stretched out by te writers, fleshed out, narratively expanded upon to think of ways of explaining xyz then the writers have to do a lot. That is far from 10%. And that is clearly noticable in arcs like the Zamasu/Future Trunks one. If he would provide 90% of the story then he would actually provide them with the biggest amount of writing for the 20 (or 30, depending on what we see the arc as) for the story. And he did not as we know from both the differences of manga/anime as well as the fact that he simply is not an actual writer of the anime and the anime itself has a lot of script (not to mention the way the Zamasu arc in the anime was written was written so un-Dragon Ball-deep that the influence of other authors can be clearly seen). I already mentioned the term "core ideas". That does not make him write 90% of the story. And also "90% relevant" is very very very much understating the role of the other writers. I am not saying he should not be credited in any writer role at all but it is already known that it is a sparse script. And I do not know what you are trying to achieve with the last line of your post because the writers gave the Zamasu arc for example some surprising effort for a normally pretty shallow show like Dragon Ball. And checking another author, sometimes correcting still does not make you the author. That would be equal to "you are doing everything you just do not literally want to write it all down so you are telling them all to write it down for you", which is not the case here. He is important as hell but he is not what people make him out to be.

I don’t know who Toyble is but Toyotarou is credited as the artist, not the story writer. The stories come from Toriyama. Toyotarou and Toei suggest things to Toriyama and he can allow or veto them

[Scsigs]

I don’t know who Toyble is but Toyotarou is credited as the artist, not the story writer. The stories come from Toriyama. Toyotarou and Toei suggest things to Toriyama and he can allow or veto them

Pretty sure "Toyble" is a pseudonym of Toyotaro he used when writing his old fan manga for DB years ago.

[Meshack]

I don’t know who Toyble is but Toyotarou is credited as the artist, not the story writer. The stories come from Toriyama. Toyotarou and Toei suggest things to Toriyama and he can allow or veto them

Pretty sure "Toyble" is a pseudonym of Toyotaro he used when writing his old fan manga for DB years ago.

I know who Toyble is. Toyble is not the name he goes by now. It’s “Toyotarou.”

[Scsigs]

I don’t know who Toyble is but Toyotarou is credited as the artist, not the story writer. The stories come from Toriyama. Toyotarou and Toei suggest things to Toriyama and he can allow or veto them

Pretty sure "Toyble" is a pseudonym of Toyotaro he used when writing his old fan manga for DB years ago.

I know who Toyble is. Toyble is not the name he goes by now. It’s “Toyotarou.”

And yet you said you DIDN'T know who he was...

[Meshack]

Pretty sure "Toyble" is a pseudonym of Toyotaro he used when writing his old fan manga for DB years ago.

I know who Toyble is. Toyble is not the name he goes by now. It’s “Toyotarou.”

And yet you said you DIDN'T know who he was...

...Because he doesn’t go by Toyble anymore...

[TheMikado]

I know who Toyble is. Toyble is not the name he goes by now. It’s “Toyotarou.”

And yet you said you DIDN'T know who he was...

...Because he doesn’t go by Toyble anymore...

I don’t know who Toyble is but Toyotarou is credited as the artist

I know who Toyble is. Toyble is not the name he goes by now. It’s “Toyotarou.”

ok..

[Scsigs]

And yet you said you DIDN'T know who he was...

...Because he doesn’t go by Toyble anymore...

I don’t know who Toyble is but Toyotarou is credited as the artist

I know who Toyble is. Toyble is not the name he goes by now. It’s “Toyotarou.”

ok...

YOU see my point. Say what you mean, mean what you say, man.

[Meshack]

Honestly, if Toyotarou was given a month’s worth of pages for chapters since the beginning, the manga would be 100% better than the anime.

[sintzu]

Honestly, if Toyotarou was given a month’s worth of pages for chapters since the beginning, the manga would be 100% better than the anime.

Looking at the champs and trunks arcs and what little we've seen of the current one, I think he's far surpassed the anime at this point.