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I think there are multiple ways it could end.Bullza wrote:If for whatever reason Vegito beats him in this version then Trunks will have done absolutely nothing.
I definitely want to see Trunks beat him. I'd actually be surprised if he didn't, it was a pleasant surprise seeing it happen in the anime.sintzu wrote:I think there are multiple ways it could end.Bullza wrote:If for whatever reason Vegito beats him in this version then Trunks will have done absolutely nothing.
1- Vegetto beats him then he takes over the universe then Zeno finishes him off alongside the universe.
2- Goku and Vegeta defuse then tag team him before Zeno finishes him off.
What I want to see : Goku gets stabbed after they defuse and it's up to a Ssj3 Vegeta to finish him off before Zeno does.
In the anime Goku and Vegeta gave him their power to help him so maybe they'll do that here and he'll turn into a Ssjg or Ssjb for a minute to finish him.Bullza wrote:I definitely want to see Trunks beat him. I'd actually be surprised if he didn't, it was a pleasant surprise seeing it happen in the anime.
I have no idea how it would happen though. Unless they have him transform into a Super Saiyan Blue and then he cuts him in half.
Actually, why DIDN'T he go God when he got Goku and Vegeta's energy? They're giving him God Ki, so while it'll only last temporarily, he should logically go God like Goku did in BOG.sintzu wrote:In the anime Goku and Vegeta gave him their power to help him so maybe they'll do that here and he'll turn into a Ssjg or Ssjb for a minute to finish him.Bullza wrote:I definitely want to see Trunks beat him. I'd actually be surprised if he didn't, it was a pleasant surprise seeing it happen in the anime.
I have no idea how it would happen though. Unless they have him transform into a Super Saiyan Blue and then he cuts him in half.
Based on everything we've seen though, I'll be surprised if he does.
Kanassa wrote:- FoolsGil, Out of Context, 2017FoolsGil wrote:I hope Mark is dead. But chances are the dragonballs will bring his stupid ass back.
Energy is different from the spirit/heart that was involved in the SSG ritual.Kanassa wrote:Actually, why DIDN'T he go God when he got Goku and Vegeta's energy? They're giving him God Ki, so while it'll only last temporarily, he should logically go God like Goku did in BOG.sintzu wrote:In the anime Goku and Vegeta gave him their power to help him so maybe they'll do that here and he'll turn into a Ssjg or Ssjb for a minute to finish him.Bullza wrote:I definitely want to see Trunks beat him. I'd actually be surprised if he didn't, it was a pleasant surprise seeing it happen in the anime.
I have no idea how it would happen though. Unless they have him transform into a Super Saiyan Blue and then he cuts him in half.
Based on everything we've seen though, I'll be surprised if he does.
That is the problem even if Trunks does get the kill, there will be no pay off as he and the villains are underdeveloped in the Manga. It is damned if you and damned if you don't and this is unfortunately pass we are at thanks to Toyo's handling of the arc. The anime went out the way to show Black and Zamasu as genuine monsters that our guys couldn't handle, and on top of that developed the hell of Trunks and explored different types of relationships, whether it be with his alternate self, his parents, Mai or the resistance and heck even those kids and hell Gohan too! There is nothing that Toyo can do that will end this arc satisfyingly. Like I keep saying he is failing to separate the fanboy in him, he goes to great lengths to give us some smack reason why Vegeta going SSG is okay yet fails to give us a compelling villain...Bullza wrote:I'll tell you one thing the anime has done better at least. They made Trunks worthwhile.
In the anime he fought against Super Saiyan Rose Black and Zamasu. He obtained the Super Saiyan Rage form and fought even more and held them off. He was the onewhi used the mafuba on Zamasu.
He did go on to power up further and have a go at Merged Zamasu and then of course defeated him.
In the manga he's barely done squat. He held them off for a little while but not in a exciting badass way like he did in the anime. He instead got his ass kicked ass and was sorta bailed out by Gowasu.
Without the Rage form I doubt he'll have his moment against Merged Zamasu. If for whatever reason Vegito beats him in this version then Trunks will have done absolutely nothing.
Meh, I can see similarities. Though really, Piccolo only crumbled at the sight of the single technique that kept him imprisoned for years (Which I assume is quite the terrifying prospect), but when shit goes south later he's still calm enough to adapt and keep his composure. Where as with Black, he seems to meltdown at even the slightest detour in plan. Again, I can see the connection, but I believe Manga!Black is a lot more easily shaken than Piccolo.LightBing wrote: Better stop here and continue this later. What do you guys think of my Piccolo Daimao and Goku Black(manga) comparison?
Kanassa wrote:- FoolsGil, Out of Context, 2017FoolsGil wrote:I hope Mark is dead. But chances are the dragonballs will bring his stupid ass back.
The anime certainly handles Zamasu and Black better, however its more likely the source material (i.e. the outline was completely underwhelming to begin with, remember we are fairly certain the Goku/Black/Zamasu fights, possibly all of them, were Toei additions. The original outline was probably pretty terrible with little meat to it.)Baggie_Saiyan wrote:That is the problem even if Trunks does get the kill, there will be no pay off as he and the villains are underdeveloped in the Manga. It is damned if you and damned if you don't and this is unfortunately pass we are at thanks to Toyo's handling of the arc. The anime went out the way to show Black and Zamasu as genuine monsters that our guys couldn't handle, and on top of that developed the hell of Trunks and explored different types of relationships, whether it be with his alternate self, his parents, Mai or the resistance and heck even those kids and hell Gohan too! There is nothing that Toyo can do that will end this arc satisfyingly. Like I keep saying he is failing to separate the fanboy in him, he goes to great lengths to give us some smack reason why Vegeta going SSG is okay yet fails to give us a compelling villain...Bullza wrote:I'll tell you one thing the anime has done better at least. They made Trunks worthwhile.
In the anime he fought against Super Saiyan Rose Black and Zamasu. He obtained the Super Saiyan Rage form and fought even more and held them off. He was the onewhi used the mafuba on Zamasu.
He did go on to power up further and have a go at Merged Zamasu and then of course defeated him.
In the manga he's barely done squat. He held them off for a little while but not in a exciting badass way like he did in the anime. He instead got his ass kicked ass and was sorta bailed out by Gowasu.
Without the Rage form I doubt he'll have his moment against Merged Zamasu. If for whatever reason Vegito beats him in this version then Trunks will have done absolutely nothing.
continue the comparation please,this time with the universe 6 arc, because honestly This thread was kinda getting repetitive, and I sorta agree with manga black, he is not badly written, but he is underwhelming at best and kinda generic, just wish Toyble gave him more screentime and don't make him lose to Vegeta at their first encounter, but honestly I don't mind him being a dirty coward,as long he has character development and they make him intimidatingLightBing wrote:I'm going to focus on specific moments/characters to compare the manga and anime. I feel this type of approach might improve discussion. Wide net arguments usually fail to see the forest for the trees. Many posts in this thread prove this.
I will be giving points arbitrarily weighted on much importance I give to each moment/character.
Mafuba: +2 Manga/+1 Anime
Overall I didn't enjoy this plot point. Who did it worst? The anime. Which one was funnier? The anime.
Discrediting the Mafuba like that for a silly joke is a bit much and craps all over Goku's effort of passing a day mastering the technique. To make it worst the anime shoved down our throats Goku suddenly being a forgetful goof, which adds insult to injury.
The manga was much more conventional in their joke, which ultimately was not as funny but didn't make me role my eyes and let out a "this is bullshit".
Piccolo recording that clip was so surreal that I found it hilarious.
Goku Black's Character: +10 Anime/+2 Manga
It seems Black will no longer appear in the manga. I can now offer a critique. Who did it worst? The manga.
If there's one thing Anime Black has is charisma oozing out of every pore. He's a very compelling villain. There's a few writing hiccups here and there, which make Anime Black an idiot/incompetent in certains situation, for example allowing Trunks to escape so many times.
That's not serious enough to take way from a very interesting character. Kudos to Ms Nozawa, her performance helped elevate the character.
Deciding to add Goku/Saiyan traits to Black was the winning decision by the anime. It made him feel much more connected to Goku. Because of this his constant increase in power we're always hand-in-hand with these traits, improving these moments.
The manga went with Goku Black is Zamasu, which is true but that doesn't make him interesting or at least the manga wasn't able to make him "badass" enough. The manga goes out of his way to remove the hiccups the anime had, that's a plus. Goku Black reminds me of Piccolo Daimao, cocky and confident when's he's ahead, crumbling and cowardly when he's losing.
I don't think Black is badly written in the manga. Not liking something doesn't make it bad.
Total:
Anime: 11 points
Manga: 3 points
Better stop here and continue this later. What do you guys think of my Piccolo Daimao and Goku Black(manga) comparison?
Vegeta killing Zamasu (or destroying his mortal body) would do it for me. I'd also be happy if Vegetto or Gogeta finished him off (this is a lot more likaly).Baggie_Saiyan wrote:There is nothing that Toyo can do that will end this arc satisfyingly.
I wouldn't make assumptions about the ending. I'm sure it'll be fine. And I'm not seeing this whole "fanboy" thing that everyone's talking bout. Also, I don't think he's really making all that big a deal over Vegeta's going SSG. The way I see it, Vegeta's went SSG, and we got a logical explanation for it. Simple and effective if you ask me. As for Black not being compelling, I just plain disagree. I like his design, I like his character, and everything we've seen of him. He may not be the anime version y'all love, but the manga version is more than enough for me. Especially the design.Baggie_Saiyan wrote:There is nothing that Toyo can do that will end this arc satisfyingly. Like I keep saying he is failing to separate the fanboy in him, he goes to great lengths to give us some smack reason why Vegeta going SSG is okay yet fails to give us a compelling villain...
I think this is why the manga's version isn't popular, it's not that he's bad, it's that the anime's was so good mostly thanks to Nozawa's voice that it seems like the manga's bad when in reality it isn't.Bansho64 wrote:As for Black not being compelling, I just plain disagree. I like his design, I like his character, and everything we've seen of him. He's not be the anime version y'all love.
Rather than that, I think its just him trying to make his version miles and miles different from how the anime handled it to give us a different experience on what happened (He did say this in an interview), its not about which version has Toriyama's outline more accurate, but simply Toyo wanting to give his manga its own image, Anime focused more on Goku V Black, Trunks V Black and Goku+Trunks V Black and Zamasu, so the manga compensated that and put in a hell of a Vegeta (which backfired, Vegeta is not entertaining when he is kicking ass, he's only entertaining when the opposite happens and looking like an idiot or giving a speech.)Baggie_Saiyan wrote: There is nothing that Toyo can do that will end this arc satisfyingly. Like I keep saying he is failing to separate the fanboy in him, he goes to great lengths to give us some smack reason why Vegeta going SSG is okay yet fails to give us a compelling villain...
I agree somewhat. Black in the manga is also just incredibly bland, but not necessarily absolutely garbage or terrible, just uninteresting. He's pretty boring and generic.sintzu wrote:I think this is why the manga's version isn't popular, it's not that he's bad, it's that the anime's was so good mostly thanks to Nozawa's voice that it seems like the manga's bad when in reality it isn't.Bansho64 wrote:As for Black not being compelling, I just plain disagree. I like his design, I like his character, and everything we've seen of him. He's not be the anime version y'all love.
I don't know. I think in the right context Vegeta is entertaining when he's kicking ass. Look at Vegeta vs. Black II (anime) that was quite entertaining. Though I do agree about Veggie getting stomped being enjoyable to watch too. I also agree with the comparisons with Anime Black to Goku and Manga Black to Vegeta.SansrivaaL wrote:Rather than that, I think its just him trying to make his version miles and miles different from how the anime handled it to give us a different experience on what happened (He did say this in an interview), its not about which version has Toriyama's outline more accurate, but simply Toyo wanting to give his manga its own image, Anime focused more on Goku V Black, Trunks V Black and Goku+Trunks V Black and Zamasu, so the manga compensated that and put in a hell of a Vegeta (which backfired, Vegeta is not entertaining when he is kicking ass, he's only entertaining when the opposite happens and looking like an idiot or giving a speech.)Baggie_Saiyan wrote: There is nothing that Toyo can do that will end this arc satisfyingly. Like I keep saying he is failing to separate the fanboy in him, he goes to great lengths to give us some smack reason why Vegeta going SSG is okay yet fails to give us a compelling villain...
Look at it this way, because Black hasnt fought Goku in the manga, he couldnt grasp Goku's character, he only fought Vegeta out of the two, hence Vegeta's personality was the one that rubbed on him.
Black in the manga shoulda just took Vegeta's body instead of Goku, the way Black has been acting, its more in line of what Vegeta would be like.
-Gets pissed when things dont go his way
-Gets pissed when he fights a stronger opponent and instantly falls on the "what do I do now?" list
-Whines like a lil bitch because his opponent keeps on belittling him via smirking and making a happy face
-Is only happy when he has the upper hand, when things go south, his face goes 180.
Whereas Anime Black is literally like Goku
-Doesnt mind getting his ass whooped because it'll take him to new heights.
-Enjoys pushing buttons of his opponents for them to reach new levels.
-Sadistic af (ok this is more like a combination of Goku and Zamasu's personality)
-He doesnt lose his composure
-As much as Goku enjoys using the word "I'm excited" Black is more in the "I'm beautiful"
SansrivaaL wrote:I think its just him trying to make his version miles and miles different from how the anime handled it to give us a different experience on what happened (He did say this in an interview), its not about which version has Toriyama's outline more accurate, but simply Toyo wanting to give his manga its own image, Anime focused more on Goku V Black, Trunks V Black and Goku+Trunks V Black and Zamasu, so the manga compensated that and put in a hell of a Vegeta.
This was from his most recent interview so it's pretty clear that he's just following Toriyama's outline. Trunks and Goku getting major screen time is obviously a change made by Toei. He also said that Goku was his favorite character so if he had a major role in the script he would've left it in. In terms of why Toei went with Goku and Trunks instead of the prince, they probably didn't think he was marketable enough. This is afterall the 1st DB arc where Goku doesn't fight the main villain even once. It's also the 1st arc where someone else is the main character from the start unlike the Cell arc where Gohan took over from Goku at the end so it's understandable why Toei were afraid to go with it.Toyotarou wrote:Fundamentally, I don't deviate from the major plotlines that Toriyama's laid down.
Not entertaining ? This is the best thing DB has ever put out. This is pretty much what I imagined would happen had Toriyama continued the manga back in the day after making Vegeta a good guy at the end of the Buu arc and I was right.SansrivaaL wrote:Vegeta is not entertaining when he is kicking ass, he's only entertaining when the opposite happens and looking like an idiot.
sintzu wrote:This was from his most recent interview so it's pretty clear that he's just following Toriyama's outline. Trunks and Goku getting major screen time is obviously a change made by Toei. He also said that Goku was his favorite character so if he had a major role in the script he would've left it in. In terms of why Toei went with Goku and Trunks instead of the prince, they probably didn't think he was marketable enough. This is afterall the 1st DB arc where Goku doesn't fight the main villain even once. It's also the 1st arc where someone else is the main character from the start unlike the Cell arc where Gohan took over from Goku at the end so it's understandable why Toei were afraid to go with it.Toyotarou wrote:Fundamentally, I don't deviate from the major plotlines that Toriyama's laid down.
What Toyo's doing isnt exactly changing the overall plot, just details of who fights who, the end results were the same, now how you grasp that is up to you, for once, dont let your love for a character cloud your judgement. I know you love Vegeta but c'mon man, just because you liked what Toyo did, you instantly jump into "The manga follows Akira Toriyama's plot more thoroughly than the anime because Vegeta wasnt the main character there"Toyotarou wrote:"But as far as the details between those plot points, I'm free to fill them in myself."
The closest that Vegeta's gonna get in Toriyama's main character list is how he handled him in the RF arc thats about it, he beats up a tired Freeza who couldnt even hurt Goku anymore. A little like how he handled Gohan back in Cell arc, Gohan barely had anything to do in the early parts, when the last part came thats where he got his time. Only difference was, Gohan actually killed Cell with some moral help from his dad and his friends, while Vegeta got his ass killed.sintzu wrote: A lot of people seem to forget that when Toriyama was done with BOG he was thinking of having Vegeta be the main character in a future story and at the same time he decided aganst a White haired Ssj form cause it would clash with the at the time future villain who turned out to be Zamasu.
For you probably yes, but for some of us who doesnt buy into character bias... not so, I'm all in for Gohan and Goku, but when they fck up, they FCK UP, I dont play on fairy land thinking the other way around just to arouse my self interest.sintzu wrote: Not entertaining ? This is the best thing DB has ever put out. This is pretty much what I imagined would happen had Toriyama continued the manga back in the day after making Vegeta a good guy at the end of the Buu arc and I was right.
Indeed but what made that fight amazing was because of Vegeta's speech, when Vegeta's just all cocky and smirky that doesnt say anything while kicking ass, he isnt exactly entertaining as the others are.TheMathemagician wrote: I don't know. I think in the right context Vegeta is entertaining when he's kicking ass. Look at Vegeta vs. Black II (anime) that was quite entertaining. Though I do agree about Veggie getting stomped being enjoyable to watch too. I also agree with the comparisons with Anime Black to Goku and Manga Black to Vegeta.
How is that not a major change to the plot ? If the Z anime had the final battle on Namek be between a Ssj Vegeta and Freeza would you say it was just a small change ? changing who fights who is a major change, especially if the change involves sidlining the main characters for someone else.SansrivaaL wrote:What Toyo's doing isnt exactly changing the overall plot, just details of who fights who, the end results were the same, now how you grasp that is up to you, for once, dont let your love for a character cloud your judgement.
I know you love Vegeta but c'mon man, just because you liked what Toyo did, you instantly jump into "The manga follows Akira Toriyama's plot more thoroughly than the anime because Vegeta wasnt the main character there".
Ofc its not, because Black isnt the final boss in this arc, Merged Zamasu is. Yes it would be quite the change because Freeza's the final boss in that arc, tho if they want to, they can change how the events overall happens if thats what they were going for, which is obviously what they're doing now, when you're behind the anime in terms of story, what should you do to keep your readers entertained? change some events, go for different approaches, which Toyo's doing.sintzu wrote:How is that not a major change to the plot ? If the Z anime had the final battle on Namek be between a Ssj Vegeta and Freeza would you say it was just a small change ? changing who fights who is a major change, especially if the change involves sidlining the main characters for someone else.SansrivaaL wrote:What Toyo's doing isnt exactly changing the overall plot, just details of who fights who, the end results were the same, now how you grasp that is up to you, for once, dont let your love for a character cloud your judgement.
I know you love Vegeta but c'mon man, just because you liked what Toyo did, you instantly jump into "The manga follows Akira Toriyama's plot more thoroughly than the anime because Vegeta wasnt the main character there".
The manga isn't the main product so the chances of Toyotaro having that kind of freedom to change whatever he wants are slim to none so the most likely case is that Toei are the ones making the changes.
