Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by kn83 » Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:07 pm

Bergamo wrote:
kn83 wrote:
Bergamo wrote: Potara fusion isn't as strong as people think. Vegetto was only as strong as he was because goku and vegeta were extremely powerful saiyans and sworn rivals, and that combination culminated in an extremely powerful being. If you remember Kibitokai was the fusion of two beings that were around the strength of goten and Trunks individually, but they were nowhere near the power of gotenks, because Kai fusion isn't as powerful as Saiyan fusion. It's because of Zamas being a Kai and the two fusees being the same person that God Zamas was only marginally stronger than Black.

What really warrants God Zamas' existence rather than keeping black is his regeneration and Kaioshin fighting style. Zamas' power is juxtaposed with his role as a Kaioshin. He has the power to enforce his justice, but that is in spite of everything he's supposed to be.
1. All of that is pure headcanon and goes against what is actually stated about how potara fusion works in the Daizenshuu and Super.

2. There is zero official info on how strong KibitoShin actually is, but Shin is easily way stronger than Goten and Trunks due to the fact that he is stronger than Buu saga Piccolo, who was at least relative to Cell Games Goku. Goten and Trunks were at best equal to A18 from the Android arc.

3. The official explanation for potara fusion is that it is the max power of both partners combined then multipied by "tens of times", then boosted again by a rival boost (which has no official universal number and varies based on the personalities of the partners).

4. It was never stated anywhere that the race of the partners has any impact on the power levels of the fusion.
Fusion being multiplied tens of times over is probably a hyperbole. You can never trust vague numbers like that.Kibitoshin was not powerful enough to help against buu, so he was probably weaker than Gotenks, and the part about saiyans getting better results from fusion is speculation. I concluded that because saiyans have always been overpowered and all of the strong fusions were saiyans.
They say the same multiplier in the Daizenshuu so it can't be dismissed as hyperbole.

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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by Bergamo » Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:39 pm

kn83 wrote:
Bergamo wrote:
kn83 wrote:
1. All of that is pure headcanon and goes against what is actually stated about how potara fusion works in the Daizenshuu and Super.

2. There is zero official info on how strong KibitoShin actually is, but Shin is easily way stronger than Goten and Trunks due to the fact that he is stronger than Buu saga Piccolo, who was at least relative to Cell Games Goku. Goten and Trunks were at best equal to A18 from the Android arc.

3. The official explanation for potara fusion is that it is the max power of both partners combined then multipied by "tens of times", then boosted again by a rival boost (which has no official universal number and varies based on the personalities of the partners).

4. It was never stated anywhere that the race of the partners has any impact on the power levels of the fusion.
Fusion being multiplied tens of times over is probably a hyperbole. You can never trust vague numbers like that.Kibitoshin was not powerful enough to help against buu, so he was probably weaker than Gotenks, and the part about saiyans getting better results from fusion is speculation. I concluded that because saiyans have always been overpowered and all of the strong fusions were saiyans.
They say the same multiplier in the Daizenshuu so it can't be dismissed as hyperbole.
I'm sorry to ask, but is there a place I can find this information. I have to admit, I wasn't fully aware of the facts when I made my original statement.
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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by Miracles » Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:20 pm

kn83 wrote:
Bergamo wrote:
Miracles wrote:Why are people mad cause in the manga Goku and Vegeta are actually stronger than their anime counterparts? Thus making the villians seem impotent?
I agree completely. I don't see the appeal of Goku Black being undefeatable and then fusing to become even more powerful. Zamas was so powerful that he had to be Deus Ex Machina'd out of the story.
Because in a battle series like Dragonball, weaker antagonist completely undermines the victories of the heroes and it takes away any tension and credibility from the fight. It doesn't actually Goku and Vegeta look stronger at all, because their fights weren't truly difficult. The manga version of Goku vs Hit makes it clear that Goku could have immediately stomped him if he just turned Blue from the start. That doesn't make Goku look stronger, It makes Hit look like a joke. Giving easy wins over a main antagonist in a battle anime/manga is never a good thing.

Part of what made King Piccolo, Scouter Vegeta, Frieeza and Cell so great and memorable as villains of the original series was because of how dominant they were portrayed over the heroes for most of their arcs. It made their inevitable defeat all the more satisfying and well earned. None of the major battles in the Super manga ever give off that quality, they just feel like cheap fanservice made to make Goku and Vegeta look as good as possible. SSJ Goku vs 100% Freeza on Namek (as well as MUI Goku vs Awakened Jiren in ep.130) such a great fight was that even though Goku was stronger it was still an all-out difficult fight for him. The anime version of Vegito vs Merged Zamasu was superior to the manga verison for this same reason because Vegito beating him actually feels like an accomplishment, while the manga version just feels like empty fanservice for Vegito fans. Vegeta finally beating up Black in the anime was better than its manga version for the same reason.

Also, Zeno-Ex-Machina happened in the manga too.
Except You're wrong. Goku couldn't go Blue immediately and stomp Hit. Cause Blue Goku was saving energy and even when he went Blue still couldn't defeat Hit who powered himself up and evaded the Kamehameha.

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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by Bergamo » Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:23 pm

Miracles wrote:
kn83 wrote:
Bergamo wrote: I agree completely. I don't see the appeal of Goku Black being undefeatable and then fusing to become even more powerful. Zamas was so powerful that he had to be Deus Ex Machina'd out of the story.
Because in a battle series like Dragonball, weaker antagonist completely undermines the victories of the heroes and it takes away any tension and credibility from the fight. It doesn't actually Goku and Vegeta look stronger at all, because their fights weren't truly difficult. The manga version of Goku vs Hit makes it clear that Goku could have immediately stomped him if he just turned Blue from the start. That doesn't make Goku look stronger, It makes Hit look like a joke. Giving easy wins over a main antagonist in a battle anime/manga is never a good thing.

Part of what made King Piccolo, Scouter Vegeta, Frieeza and Cell so great and memorable as villains of the original series was because of how dominant they were portrayed over the heroes for most of their arcs. It made their inevitable defeat all the more satisfying and well earned. None of the major battles in the Super manga ever give off that quality, they just feel like cheap fanservice made to make Goku and Vegeta look as good as possible. SSJ Goku vs 100% Freeza on Namek (as well as MUI Goku vs Awakened Jiren in ep.130) such a great fight was that even though Goku was stronger it was still an all-out difficult fight for him. The anime version of Vegito vs Merged Zamasu was superior to the manga verison for this same reason because Vegito beating him actually feels like an accomplishment, while the manga version just feels like empty fanservice for Vegito fans. Vegeta finally beating up Black in the anime was better than its manga version for the same reason.

Also, Zeno-Ex-Machina happened in the manga too.
Except You're wrong. Goku couldn't go Blue immediately and stomp Hit. Cause Blue Goku was saving energy and even when he went Blue still couldn't defeat Hit who powered himself up and evaded the Kamehameha.
More on this, Goku thought that timeskip worked on blue because of the fight with Vegeta, and he thought that even if he lost, Monaka would be able to defeat Hit.
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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by Exline » Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:47 pm

kn83 wrote:
Bergamo wrote:
Miracles wrote:Why are people mad cause in the manga Goku and Vegeta are actually stronger than their anime counterparts? Thus making the villians seem impotent?
I agree completely. I don't see the appeal of Goku Black being undefeatable and then fusing to become even more powerful. Zamas was so powerful that he had to be Deus Ex Machina'd out of the story.
Because in a battle series like Dragonball, weaker antagonist completely undermines the victories of the heroes and it takes away any tension and credibility from the fight. It doesn't actually Goku and Vegeta look stronger at all, because their fights weren't truly difficult. The manga version of Goku vs Hit makes it clear that Goku could have immediately stomped him if he just turned Blue from the start. That doesn't make Goku look stronger, It makes Hit look like a joke. Giving easy wins over a main antagonist in a battle anime/manga is never a good thing.

Part of what made King Piccolo, Scouter Vegeta, Frieeza and Cell so great and memorable as villains of the original series was because of how dominant they were portrayed over the heroes for most of their arcs. It made their inevitable defeat all the more satisfying and well earned. None of the major battles in the Super manga ever give off that quality, they just feel like cheap fanservice made to make Goku and Vegeta look as good as possible. SSJ Goku vs 100% Freeza on Namek (as well as MUI Goku vs Awakened Jiren in ep.130) such a great fight was that even though Goku was stronger it was still an all-out difficult fight for him. The anime version of Vegito vs Merged Zamasu was superior to the manga verison for this same reason because Vegito beating him actually feels like an accomplishment, while the manga version just feels like empty fanservice for Vegito fans. Vegeta finally beating up Black in the anime was better than its manga version for the same reason.

Also, Zeno-Ex-Machina happened in the manga too.
How does having the opponent be "slightly" weaker than their competitor undermine the victory and tension from their fight? What? What...

I think you're just referring to the execution. Yes, I agree that the Hit fight in the manga made him look less of a formidable foe, but having Goku best him in battle doesn't make his fight any less meaningful. They were both being used as pawns in an arc where the Earth's ownership was at stake between the GoD of Universes 6 and 7. Knowing very well that if they lose their match, that their GoD could go apeshit on them and destroy them just for losing, the both of them still forfeited their matches. Both Hit and Goku enjoying their fight to be willing to forfeit their match in order to have a much more proper battle without restrictions and limits is what the fight was mostly about. The establishment of a new rivalry.

The fight between Goku and Hit could have been story boarded better, but honestly, it was satisfying enough. Just because Hit was weaker doesn't make his fight less memorable and impactful. Shit look at the Red Ribbon Army Arc with how Goku handled a whole army almost single-handedly. Krillin vs. Goku was a great fight as well even tho Krillin was considerably weaker. Tien vs. Goku in the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai is another memorable fight where Goku dominates his competitor.

And dear lord why do people confuse trying to making a sound narrative with fanservice just because their opponent was weaker for them, for like, the first time in a while since the Red Ribbon Army Saga..? What's wrong with a little change? Don't you get tired of the same old same old?

It baffles me how you'll bash the manga for making Vegeta look good, but instead enjoy his seemingly conservative personality and confusing character development throughout all of Super. As well as being perfectly fine with him constantly getting left in the dust when next to Goku, the anime's greatest example of fan service.

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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by kn83 » Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:15 pm

Exline wrote:How does having the opponent be "slightly" weaker than their competitor undermine the victory and tension from their fight? What? What...

I think you're just referring to the execution. Yes, I agree that the Hit fight in the manga made him look less of a formidable foe, but having Goku best him in battle doesn't make his fight any less meaningful. They were both being used as pawns in an arc where the Earth's ownership was at stake between the GoD of Universes 6 and 7. Knowing very well that if they lose their match, that their GoD could go apeshit on them and destroy them just for losing, the both of them still forfeited their matches. Both Hit and Goku enjoying their fight to be willing to forfeit their match in order to have a much more proper battle without restrictions and limits is what the fight was mostly about. The establishment of a new rivalry.

The fight between Goku and Hit could have been story boarded better, but honestly, it was satisfying enough. Just because Hit was weaker doesn't make his fight less memorable and impactful. Shit look at the Red Ribbon Army Arc with how Goku handled a whole army almost single-handedly. Krillin vs. Goku was a great fight as well even tho Krillin was considerably weaker. Tien vs. Goku in the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai is another memorable fight where Goku dominates his competitor.

And dear lord why do people confuse trying to making a sound narrative with fanservice just because their opponent was weaker for them, for like, the first time in a while since the Red Ribbon Army Saga..? What's wrong with a little change? Don't you get tired of the same old same old?
Its impossible to take Hit seriously as a rival if we all know that Goku and Vegeta could just instantly stomp him by going full power from the start. By the anime giving Hit his ability to rapidly adapt in power and to use his time freeze on stronger foes to a degree, it gives him the actual potential to be a legit rival to Goku and Vegeta in the long run. That's why the anime did it better imo. Its also the reason why Blue Evolution Vegeta is a thing, because it keeps Goku and Vegeta even to maintain their rivalry.

Goku vs Krillin in the 21st was a near even fight, he was not (yet) considerably weaker than Goku at the time and Goku needed to go all out on him. Same with Goku vs Tien in the 23rd. Goku won both times but Tien and Krillin weren't portrayed as fodder in those fights.

The RRA saga isn't a good example of your argument because Mercenary Tao was the only antagonist in that arc intended to be a serious challenge to Goku, and Goku only dominates him after losing to him first and having to train to surpass him. This prevented Tao from being a fodder villain in that arc.

Making the main antagonist massively weaker than the protagonist does not make sense in a battle series, especially one were everyone uses the same source of power (ki). Its works for the Superhero genre but it never does in Shonen. That's why Toriyama never gave people easy wins against the main foe in the original manga. Gohan vs Cell would have really sucked if SSJ2 Gohan just kills Perfect Cell right after he unlocks the form for example.

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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by JazzMazz » Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:35 pm

Miracles wrote:
kn83 wrote:
Bergamo wrote: I agree completely. I don't see the appeal of Goku Black being undefeatable and then fusing to become even more powerful. Zamas was so powerful that he had to be Deus Ex Machina'd out of the story.
Because in a battle series like Dragonball, weaker antagonist completely undermines the victories of the heroes and it takes away any tension and credibility from the fight. It doesn't actually Goku and Vegeta look stronger at all, because their fights weren't truly difficult. The manga version of Goku vs Hit makes it clear that Goku could have immediately stomped him if he just turned Blue from the start. That doesn't make Goku look stronger, It makes Hit look like a joke. Giving easy wins over a main antagonist in a battle anime/manga is never a good thing.

Part of what made King Piccolo, Scouter Vegeta, Frieeza and Cell so great and memorable as villains of the original series was because of how dominant they were portrayed over the heroes for most of their arcs. It made their inevitable defeat all the more satisfying and well earned. None of the major battles in the Super manga ever give off that quality, they just feel like cheap fanservice made to make Goku and Vegeta look as good as possible. SSJ Goku vs 100% Freeza on Namek (as well as MUI Goku vs Awakened Jiren in ep.130) such a great fight was that even though Goku was stronger it was still an all-out difficult fight for him. The anime version of Vegito vs Merged Zamasu was superior to the manga verison for this same reason because Vegito beating him actually feels like an accomplishment, while the manga version just feels like empty fanservice for Vegito fans. Vegeta finally beating up Black in the anime was better than its manga version for the same reason.

Also, Zeno-Ex-Machina happened in the manga too.
Except You're wrong. Goku couldn't go Blue immediately and stomp Hit. Cause Blue Goku was saving energy and even when he went Blue still couldn't defeat Hit who powered himself up and evaded the Kamehameha.
Why exactly couldn't he have done so earlier in the fight when Hit hadn't fully powered up?

Also, I'm not sure if I'm just reading this wrong, but Hits power-up really wasn't anything to particularly gloat about in comparison to Blue, and they make it extremely clear that Goku could have won if he continued the fight.

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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by kn83 » Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:40 pm

Miracles wrote: Except You're wrong. Goku couldn't go Blue immediately and stomp Hit. Cause Blue Goku was saving energy and even when he went Blue still couldn't defeat Hit who powered himself up and evaded the Kamehameha.
The manga version made it that Hit's full power was only equal to SSG and that he can't use his time freeze of stronger people than himself. This means Goku could have just went Blue from the start and take him out if he was serious.

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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by ToshioWrites » Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:42 pm

kn83 wrote:
Miracles wrote: Except You're wrong. Goku couldn't go Blue immediately and stomp Hit. Cause Blue Goku was saving energy and even when he went Blue still couldn't defeat Hit who powered himself up and evaded the Kamehameha.
The manga version made it that Hit's full power was only equal to SSG and that he can't use his time freeze of stronger people than himself. This means Goku could have just went Blue from the start and take him out if he was serious.

To add on to this. Goku and Vegeta both on the bench told each other they could have won the fight and in chapter 33 Hit basically admits he was inferior saying " what happened last time won't repeat itself" -or something along those lines.

In the anime, goku told beerus that with kaioken running out, he was gonna lose to hit

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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by Bergamo » Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:42 pm

JazzMazz wrote:
Miracles wrote:
kn83 wrote:
Because in a battle series like Dragonball, weaker antagonist completely undermines the victories of the heroes and it takes away any tension and credibility from the fight. It doesn't actually Goku and Vegeta look stronger at all, because their fights weren't truly difficult. The manga version of Goku vs Hit makes it clear that Goku could have immediately stomped him if he just turned Blue from the start. That doesn't make Goku look stronger, It makes Hit look like a joke. Giving easy wins over a main antagonist in a battle anime/manga is never a good thing.

Part of what made King Piccolo, Scouter Vegeta, Frieeza and Cell so great and memorable as villains of the original series was because of how dominant they were portrayed over the heroes for most of their arcs. It made their inevitable defeat all the more satisfying and well earned. None of the major battles in the Super manga ever give off that quality, they just feel like cheap fanservice made to make Goku and Vegeta look as good as possible. SSJ Goku vs 100% Freeza on Namek (as well as MUI Goku vs Awakened Jiren in ep.130) such a great fight was that even though Goku was stronger it was still an all-out difficult fight for him. The anime version of Vegito vs Merged Zamasu was superior to the manga verison for this same reason because Vegito beating him actually feels like an accomplishment, while the manga version just feels like empty fanservice for Vegito fans. Vegeta finally beating up Black in the anime was better than its manga version for the same reason.

Also, Zeno-Ex-Machina happened in the manga too.
Except You're wrong. Goku couldn't go Blue immediately and stomp Hit. Cause Blue Goku was saving energy and even when he went Blue still couldn't defeat Hit who powered himself up and evaded the Kamehameha.
Why exactly couldn't he have done so earlier in the fight when Hit hadn't fully powered up?

Also, I'm not sure if I'm just reading this wrong, but Hits power-up really wasn't anything to particularly gloat about in comparison to Blue, and they make it extremely clear that Goku could have won if he continued the fight.
Goku was just as tires as Hit after firing his kamehameha, but of course Goku was a little stronger. It was a major plot point that Hit couldn't fight utilizing his strongest techniques, so in a way, Goku's win didn't really "count". That's why Goku intentionally dropped out. Well, that and the fact that he wanted to see Monaka fight, even if against an incredibally weakened opponent.
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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by kn83 » Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:44 pm

JazzMazz wrote:
Miracles wrote:
kn83 wrote:
Because in a battle series like Dragonball, weaker antagonist completely undermines the victories of the heroes and it takes away any tension and credibility from the fight. It doesn't actually Goku and Vegeta look stronger at all, because their fights weren't truly difficult. The manga version of Goku vs Hit makes it clear that Goku could have immediately stomped him if he just turned Blue from the start. That doesn't make Goku look stronger, It makes Hit look like a joke. Giving easy wins over a main antagonist in a battle anime/manga is never a good thing.

Part of what made King Piccolo, Scouter Vegeta, Frieeza and Cell so great and memorable as villains of the original series was because of how dominant they were portrayed over the heroes for most of their arcs. It made their inevitable defeat all the more satisfying and well earned. None of the major battles in the Super manga ever give off that quality, they just feel like cheap fanservice made to make Goku and Vegeta look as good as possible. SSJ Goku vs 100% Freeza on Namek (as well as MUI Goku vs Awakened Jiren in ep.130) such a great fight was that even though Goku was stronger it was still an all-out difficult fight for him. The anime version of Vegito vs Merged Zamasu was superior to the manga verison for this same reason because Vegito beating him actually feels like an accomplishment, while the manga version just feels like empty fanservice for Vegito fans. Vegeta finally beating up Black in the anime was better than its manga version for the same reason.

Also, Zeno-Ex-Machina happened in the manga too.
Except You're wrong. Goku couldn't go Blue immediately and stomp Hit. Cause Blue Goku was saving energy and even when he went Blue still couldn't defeat Hit who powered himself up and evaded the Kamehameha.
Why exactly couldn't he have done so earlier in the fight when Hit hadn't fully powered up?

Also, I'm not sure if I'm just reading this wrong, but Hits power-up really wasn't anything to particularly gloat about in comparison to Blue, and they make it extremely clear that Goku could have won if he continued the fight.
Exactly. Also, the anime version implies that Hit could have easily killed Goku and Vegeta if it wasn't for the no-killing rule. This makes anime-Hit far more intimidating as a rival and antagonist than manga-Hit.

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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by Exline » Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:00 pm

kn83 wrote:
Exline wrote:How does having the opponent be "slightly" weaker than their competitor undermine the victory and tension from their fight? What? What...

I think you're just referring to the execution. Yes, I agree that the Hit fight in the manga made him look less of a formidable foe, but having Goku best him in battle doesn't make his fight any less meaningful. They were both being used as pawns in an arc where the Earth's ownership was at stake between the GoD of Universes 6 and 7. Knowing very well that if they lose their match, that their GoD could go apeshit on them and destroy them just for losing, the both of them still forfeited their matches. Both Hit and Goku enjoying their fight to be willing to forfeit their match in order to have a much more proper battle without restrictions and limits is what the fight was mostly about. The establishment of a new rivalry.

The fight between Goku and Hit could have been story boarded better, but honestly, it was satisfying enough. Just because Hit was weaker doesn't make his fight less memorable and impactful. Shit look at the Red Ribbon Army Arc with how Goku handled a whole army almost single-handedly. Krillin vs. Goku was a great fight as well even tho Krillin was considerably weaker. Tien vs. Goku in the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai is another memorable fight where Goku dominates his competitor.

And dear lord why do people confuse trying to making a sound narrative with fanservice just because their opponent was weaker for them, for like, the first time in a while since the Red Ribbon Army Saga..? What's wrong with a little change? Don't you get tired of the same old same old?
Its impossible to take Hit seriously as a rival if we all know that Goku and Vegeta could just instantly stomp him by going full power from the start. By the anime giving Hit his ability to rapidly adapt in power and to use his time freeze on stronger foes to a degree, it gives him the actual potential to be a legit rival to Goku and Vegeta in the long run. That's why the anime did it better imo. Its also the reason why Blue Evolution Vegeta is a thing, because it keeps Goku and Vegeta even to maintain their rivalry.

Goku vs Krillin in the 21st was a near even fight, he was not (yet) considerably weaker than Goku at the time and Goku needed to go all out on him. Same with Goku vs Tien in the 23rd. Goku won both times but Tien and Krillin weren't portrayed as fodder in those fights.

The RRA saga isn't a good example of your argument because Mercenary Tao was the only antagonist in that arc intended to be a serious challenge to Goku, and Goku only dominates him after losing to him first and having to train to surpass him. This prevented Tao from being a fodder villain in that arc.

Making the main antagonist massively weaker than the protagonist does not make sense in a battle series, especially one were everyone uses the same source of power (ki). Its works for the Superhero genre but it never does in Shonen. That's why Toriyama never gave people easy wins against the main foe in the original manga. Gohan vs Cell would have really sucked if SSJ2 Gohan just kills Perfect Cell right after he unlocks the form for example.
How exactly were they even? Goku was moving so fast that Krillin couldn't even spot him. Before that, he even teased Krillin thinking he won by grabbing his tail. Krillin is definitely weaker than Goku. Goku himself even claims he can go all out on Tien the next match, signifying he was holding back against Krillin. Now just because Krillin is weaker, doesn't mean he is exactly fodder. Same goes for Hit.

How can you claim Hit to be fodder? He wasn't someone that can easily be one-shotted. Just because one of his techniques had been broken by Goku doesn't necessarily make Hit someone not worth his time. The fact that Goku forfeits to such an opponent definitely proves that Hit is nowhere near fodder. Goku understood that the tournament was limiting Hit's capabilities as an assassin and forfeited because of that. He knew his opponent was strong, he didn't forfeit because he knew his opponent was weak.

Shonen is just manga made specifically to appeal to young boys and men, it doesn't have anything to do with what you just said.

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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by kn83 » Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:14 pm

Exline wrote:
kn83 wrote:
Exline wrote:How does having the opponent be "slightly" weaker than their competitor undermine the victory and tension from their fight? What? What...

I think you're just referring to the execution. Yes, I agree that the Hit fight in the manga made him look less of a formidable foe, but having Goku best him in battle doesn't make his fight any less meaningful. They were both being used as pawns in an arc where the Earth's ownership was at stake between the GoD of Universes 6 and 7. Knowing very well that if they lose their match, that their GoD could go apeshit on them and destroy them just for losing, the both of them still forfeited their matches. Both Hit and Goku enjoying their fight to be willing to forfeit their match in order to have a much more proper battle without restrictions and limits is what the fight was mostly about. The establishment of a new rivalry.

The fight between Goku and Hit could have been story boarded better, but honestly, it was satisfying enough. Just because Hit was weaker doesn't make his fight less memorable and impactful. Shit look at the Red Ribbon Army Arc with how Goku handled a whole army almost single-handedly. Krillin vs. Goku was a great fight as well even tho Krillin was considerably weaker. Tien vs. Goku in the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai is another memorable fight where Goku dominates his competitor.

And dear lord why do people confuse trying to making a sound narrative with fanservice just because their opponent was weaker for them, for like, the first time in a while since the Red Ribbon Army Saga..? What's wrong with a little change? Don't you get tired of the same old same old?
Its impossible to take Hit seriously as a rival if we all know that Goku and Vegeta could just instantly stomp him by going full power from the start. By the anime giving Hit his ability to rapidly adapt in power and to use his time freeze on stronger foes to a degree, it gives him the actual potential to be a legit rival to Goku and Vegeta in the long run. That's why the anime did it better imo. Its also the reason why Blue Evolution Vegeta is a thing, because it keeps Goku and Vegeta even to maintain their rivalry.

Goku vs Krillin in the 21st was a near even fight, he was not (yet) considerably weaker than Goku at the time and Goku needed to go all out on him. Same with Goku vs Tien in the 23rd. Goku won both times but Tien and Krillin weren't portrayed as fodder in those fights.

The RRA saga isn't a good example of your argument because Mercenary Tao was the only antagonist in that arc intended to be a serious challenge to Goku, and Goku only dominates him after losing to him first and having to train to surpass him. This prevented Tao from being a fodder villain in that arc.

Making the main antagonist massively weaker than the protagonist does not make sense in a battle series, especially one were everyone uses the same source of power (ki). Its works for the Superhero genre but it never does in Shonen. That's why Toriyama never gave people easy wins against the main foe in the original manga. Gohan vs Cell would have really sucked if SSJ2 Gohan just kills Perfect Cell right after he unlocks the form for example.
How exactly were they even? Goku was moving so fast that Krillin couldn't even spot him. Before that, he even teased Krillin thinking he won by grabbing his tail. Krillin is definitely weaker than Goku. Goku himself even claims he can go all out on Tien the next match, signifying he was holding back against Krillin. Now just because Krillin is weaker, doesn't mean he is exactly fodder. Same goes for Hit.

How can you claim Hit to be fodder? He wasn't someone that can easily be one-shotted. Just because one of his techniques had been broken by Goku doesn't necessarily make Hit someone not worth his time. The fact that Goku forfeits to such an opponent definitely proves that Hit is nowhere near fodder. Goku understood that the tournament was limiting Hit's capabilities as an assassin and forfeited because of that. He knew his opponent was strong, he didn't forfeit because he knew his opponent was weak.

Shonen is just manga made specifically to appeal to young boys and men, it doesn't have anything to do with what you just said.
I was referring in to Goku vs Krillin in the tournament with Jackie Chun, not the one with Tien. Krillin was definitely not much weaker than Goku at that point.

Also, Goku forfeiting the match in the anime for handicapping Hit makes much more sense than in the manga. Because Hit in general is stronger in the anime and in that version his special techniques still work on people stronger than himself (and its made clear in the anime version that Hit would have easily killed Goku and Vegeta if not for the rules). While in the manga him forfeiting looks stupid (since in that version Hit clearly never stood a chance), because it begs the question why didn't he forfeit against the rest of U6 for the same reason?

And when I said Shonen, I meant the Shonen battle genre, not the demographic.

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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by Bergamo » Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:39 pm

kn83 wrote:
Exline wrote:
kn83 wrote:
Its impossible to take Hit seriously as a rival if we all know that Goku and Vegeta could just instantly stomp him by going full power from the start. By the anime giving Hit his ability to rapidly adapt in power and to use his time freeze on stronger foes to a degree, it gives him the actual potential to be a legit rival to Goku and Vegeta in the long run. That's why the anime did it better imo. Its also the reason why Blue Evolution Vegeta is a thing, because it keeps Goku and Vegeta even to maintain their rivalry.

Goku vs Krillin in the 21st was a near even fight, he was not (yet) considerably weaker than Goku at the time and Goku needed to go all out on him. Same with Goku vs Tien in the 23rd. Goku won both times but Tien and Krillin weren't portrayed as fodder in those fights.

The RRA saga isn't a good example of your argument because Mercenary Tao was the only antagonist in that arc intended to be a serious challenge to Goku, and Goku only dominates him after losing to him first and having to train to surpass him. This prevented Tao from being a fodder villain in that arc.

Making the main antagonist massively weaker than the protagonist does not make sense in a battle series, especially one were everyone uses the same source of power (ki). Its works for the Superhero genre but it never does in Shonen. That's why Toriyama never gave people easy wins against the main foe in the original manga. Gohan vs Cell would have really sucked if SSJ2 Gohan just kills Perfect Cell right after he unlocks the form for example.
How exactly were they even? Goku was moving so fast that Krillin couldn't even spot him. Before that, he even teased Krillin thinking he won by grabbing his tail. Krillin is definitely weaker than Goku. Goku himself even claims he can go all out on Tien the next match, signifying he was holding back against Krillin. Now just because Krillin is weaker, doesn't mean he is exactly fodder. Same goes for Hit.

How can you claim Hit to be fodder? He wasn't someone that can easily be one-shotted. Just because one of his techniques had been broken by Goku doesn't necessarily make Hit someone not worth his time. The fact that Goku forfeits to such an opponent definitely proves that Hit is nowhere near fodder. Goku understood that the tournament was limiting Hit's capabilities as an assassin and forfeited because of that. He knew his opponent was strong, he didn't forfeit because he knew his opponent was weak.

Shonen is just manga made specifically to appeal to young boys and men, it doesn't have anything to do with what you just said.
I was referring in to Goku vs Krillin in the tournament with Jackie Chun, not the one with Tien. Krillin was definitely not much weaker than Goku at that point.

Also, Goku forfeiting the match in the anime for handicapping Hit makes much more sense than in the manga. Because Hit in general is stronger in the anime and in that version his special techniques still work on people stronger than himself (and its made clear in the anime version that Hit would have easily killed Goku and Vegeta if not for the rules). While in the manga him forfeiting looks stupid (since in that version Hit clearly never stood a chance), because it begs the question why didn't he forfeit against the rest of U6 for the same reason?

And when I said Shonen, I meant the Shonen battle genre, not the demographic.
Goku vs Krillin never happened in the 21st world tournament. Also, Goku forfeit because he had already fought the strongest opponent in the other team, and he wanted to see what Monaka could do. That, and the fact that Goku's win wasn't legitimate in his eyes.
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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by Exline » Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:02 pm

Bergamo wrote:
kn83 wrote:
Exline wrote:
How exactly were they even? Goku was moving so fast that Krillin couldn't even spot him. Before that, he even teased Krillin thinking he won by grabbing his tail. Krillin is definitely weaker than Goku. Goku himself even claims he can go all out on Tien the next match, signifying he was holding back against Krillin. Now just because Krillin is weaker, doesn't mean he is exactly fodder. Same goes for Hit.

How can you claim Hit to be fodder? He wasn't someone that can easily be one-shotted. Just because one of his techniques had been broken by Goku doesn't necessarily make Hit someone not worth his time. The fact that Goku forfeits to such an opponent definitely proves that Hit is nowhere near fodder. Goku understood that the tournament was limiting Hit's capabilities as an assassin and forfeited because of that. He knew his opponent was strong, he didn't forfeit because he knew his opponent was weak.

Shonen is just manga made specifically to appeal to young boys and men, it doesn't have anything to do with what you just said.
I was referring in to Goku vs Krillin in the tournament with Jackie Chun, not the one with Tien. Krillin was definitely not much weaker than Goku at that point.

Also, Goku forfeiting the match in the anime for handicapping Hit makes much more sense than in the manga. Because Hit in general is stronger in the anime and in that version his special techniques still work on people stronger than himself (and its made clear in the anime version that Hit would have easily killed Goku and Vegeta if not for the rules). While in the manga him forfeiting looks stupid (since in that version Hit clearly never stood a chance), because it begs the question why didn't he forfeit against the rest of U6 for the same reason?

And when I said Shonen, I meant the Shonen battle genre, not the demographic.
Goku vs Krillin never happened in the 21st world tournament. Also, Goku forfeit because he had already fought the strongest opponent in the other team, and he wanted to see what Monaka could do. That, and the fact that Goku's win wasn't legitimate in his eyes.
Completely overlooked he said 21st. I immediately assumed the 22nd when he first mentioned it.

And we already answered that question, kn83.
The tournament limited Hit's power in the tournament and Goku wanted a fair fight with him later on.

You keep claiming Hit stood no chance, but we saw him dodge a Kamehameha from SSB Goku, a powerful transformation of his. Hit was still able to continue the fight. You're confusing his time-skip being broken with him being significantly weaker than Goku. To me I see it as the manga trying to establish that the time-skip isn't all Hit is about, that there is possibly more to him. We just might see that in ToP in his upcoming battles.

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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by kn83 » Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:33 pm

Bergamo wrote: Goku vs Krillin never happened in the 21st world tournament.
Yes it did http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Tourna ... s_featured

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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by Marlowe89 » Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:36 pm

I'm hopeful that we'll see more impressive feats from Hit in the upcoming chapters. In his limited full power state, he was certainly implied to be stronger than Super Saiyan God (which itself is at least comparable to 10% of Super Saiyan Blue's power) and he also suggested he'd become stronger since then in Chapter 33. During the Future Trunks arc, Goku likened his final move against Hit to Vegeta's God-Blue strategy against Black which expends closer to 100% of Blue's strength than the standard form.

Even if Hit wasn't as strong as I would have liked for him to have been during his fight with Goku in the tournament, he had to be packing some serious power for the latter to resort to a technique like that. If he's currently able to harness that strength at all times and maybe use some additional techniques in the Tournament of Power, I can absolutely see him giving Goku trouble.

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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by kn83 » Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:56 pm

Exline wrote:
It baffles me how you'll bash the manga for making Vegeta look good, but instead enjoy his seemingly conservative personality and confusing character development throughout all of Super. As well as being perfectly fine with him constantly getting left in the dust when next to Goku, the anime's greatest example of fan service.
What is so confusion about Vegeta's development in Super? Personality traits are lifelong and innate and mostly don't change with. Assuming a character isn't developing because they aren't "changing" or doing anything new doesn't make any sense.

And Vegeta isn't left in the dust by Goku in the anime. Goku can't spam Kaioken as much as he wants due to the strain on his body it causes, and Vegeta's Blue Evolution form is implied to stronger than post-limit breaking KKx20 Goku (and less damaging to his body too). Also, the anime frequently implies that Vegeta's base is higher than Goku's, as SSB Vegeta was able to put up a much better fight against Jiren than even pre-limit breaking KKx20 Goku did in the one hour special.

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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by Exline » Thu Apr 12, 2018 10:08 pm

kn83 wrote:
Bergamo wrote: Goku vs Krillin never happened in the 21st world tournament.
Yes it did http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Tourna ... s_featured
Lmao is this the "fight" you're talking about? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDbKFnPd_CA
kn83 wrote:
Exline wrote:
It baffles me how you'll bash the manga for making Vegeta look good, but instead enjoy his seemingly conservative personality and confusing character development throughout all of Super. As well as being perfectly fine with him constantly getting left in the dust when next to Goku, the anime's greatest example of fan service.
What is so confusion about Vegeta's development in Super? Personality traits are lifelong and innate and mostly don't change with. Assuming a character isn't developing because they aren't "changing" or doing anything new doesn't make any sense.

And Vegeta isn't left in the dust by Goku in the anime. Goku can't spam Kaioken as much as he wants due to the strain on his body it causes, and Vegeta's Blue Evolution form is implied to stronger than post-limit breaking KKx20 Goku (and less damaging to his body too). Also, the anime frequently implies that Vegeta's base is higher than Goku's, as SSB Vegeta was able to put up a much better fight against Jiren than even pre-limit breaking KKx20 Goku did in the one hour special.
The definition of character development is literally a change that specific character goes through. And I never said he didn't get any development, he certainly did. It was just hard for me to understand how his character develops due to the way he acts in specific parts of each arc.
I was trying to avoid using the term "regressed personality" but it seems like his personality dwindles between his Cell Saga and Post-Buu Saga self. In the ToP, he's shown to be jealous of Goku's new form and wants to follow in Goku's footsteps to achieve the same form to surpass him. However, the anime then shows him being much more caring about his family and comrade(s) in the later episodes of the ToP.

And Goku spamming Kaioken is literally what he's constantly been doing ever since it's first introduction..
And what does it matter if Vegeta's "Base" is higher than Goku's? Who has the more powerful transformation at the moment? The ability to undergo Ultra Instinct? Certainly not Vegeta. Goku is still stronger, hence leaving Vegeta in the dust once again.

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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by kn83 » Thu Apr 12, 2018 11:43 pm

Exline wrote: The definition of character development is literally a change that specific character goes through. And I never said he didn't get any development, he certainly did. It was just hard for me to understand how his character develops due to the way he acts in specific parts of each arc.
I was trying to avoid using the term "regressed personality" but it seems like his personality dwindles between his Cell Saga and Post-Buu Saga self. In the ToP, he's shown to be jealous of Goku's new form and wants to follow in Goku's footsteps to achieve the same form to surpass him. However, the anime then shows him being much more caring about his family and comrade(s) in the later episodes of the ToP.

Character development is the process of a character becoming more rounded a fleshed out overtime. Changing into a different personality is not development, because all that's doing replacing one small set of traits with another. Also, are you really implying that a person can't be jealous of somebody and care about their family at the same time? Because that's a false dichotomy and an extremely one dimensional view how personalities work.
Exline wrote:And Goku spamming Kaioken is literally what he's constantly been doing ever since it's first introduction..
And what does it matter if Vegeta's "Base" is higher than Goku's? Who has the more powerful transformation at the moment? The ability to undergo Ultra Instinct? Certainly not Vegeta. Goku is still stronger, hence leaving Vegeta in the dust once again.
Goku has only pushed Kaioken to its max twice in all of Super. Once against Hit (where it damaged his body) and against Jiren in the ToP. He didn't use KKx10-20 in any other time used Kaioken in Super.

Also, Goku can't use Ultra Instinct at will, and there is no guarantee that it will activate every time Goku gets pushed into a corner. Until Goku learns how to use UI at will, Vegeta will remain the stronger of the two because of his Evolution form.

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