Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

[TheSaiyanGod]

Having the strongest person of U6 weaker than not just Goku but Vegeta and making up a new rule for ssjb just to treat Vegeta's defeat with kid gloves is hurting the narrative.

But it is you who are assuming that Hitto was made weak to benefit Vegeta in some way. This makes no sense.

Making Hitto be weaker Goku SSB in power, Toyotaro automatically was also making him be weaker than Vegeta. It was not something meant to benefit any particular character as you are saying, and he did not need to explain

Its pretty clear that Toriyama's outline had Goku being 10 times stronger than Vegeta in both outlines(since that part is present in both versions),so Toyotaro went out of his way to pander to Vegeta and make up as much excuses as possible to make his defeat not clean.

But you're talking as if the anime version was correct, in which Goku actually became 10x more powerful than Vegeta, and the manga is '' wrong '' because Vegeta was not weaker than Goku, only with 10% of his power
Why the version that benefits Goku is correct, and the version that supposedly benefits Vegeta is wrong?

Gamma Burst Flash is a normal ki blast,Vegeta is weaker than Goku and he was battle damaged,MSSJB Goku could barely handle 1 Merged Zamasu and Vegeta evaporated 2 Merged Zamasus.you really don't see the problem with the result?

It became clear that Vegeta had been rage-boosting after seeing Goku, Trunks and Mai defeated. He had even put his life at risk with the Gamma Flash Burst because the technique was very powerful and Vegeta had not yet recovered. There's nothing wrong here. Gamma Burst Flash is much stronger than Final Flash

What about the anime's staff showing favoritism to Trunks ? that hurt the anime's narrative way more than Vegeta ever did in the manga. Yeah Vegeta got Black to himself compared to the anime but Goku on the other hand got fused Zamasu mostly to himself as well.

The whole arc is because of Future Trunks,its his world thats in danger and he is the one who will have to deal with the consequences in the end.
While the way they went with powering up Trunks was bad,him getting the spotlight in an arc all about him is not and even with Trunk's asspulls they still managed to make Goku Black and Zamasu formiddable.
Goku Black was a scrub in the manga since not only did Vegeta beat him twice but he got under his skin easily most of the time,heck Toyotaro even pushed Vegeta to the forefront even more with the Garma Burst Flash thing,despite making Spirit Sword Trunks level of sense.
I think you can agree that the story of the Future Trunks arc revolves around Future Trunks,Zamasu,Goku Black and to a lesser extent Goku,Vegeta has no connection at all with the villians and he is just along for the ride.
Giving a character so disconnected from the storyline the most spotlight kinda makes story suffer from it,we shouldn't be aiming for Gohan vs Cell levels of bad storytelling,should we?
The reason the Buu saga felt fitting having Goku and Vegeta ending Buu was because they were the reason Buu was released to begin with,so they were connected to the villain and the core of the story.

Goku and Vegeta have no connection with Black and Zamasu?

The first had his family and himself killed in another timeline, while the second had his wife Bulma killed, and the life of his son Trunks destroyed because of the actions of the enemy
So they also had a big connection with the villains.

What's wrong with Black being defeated twice? At first, he was still getting used to Goku's body, but when he suffered a zenkai, he dominated Vegeta and made him and the others flee to the past. Vegeta trained and managed to overcome it.
Honestly, this is better than base Black being able to hit hits on SSB Vegeta after suffering a zenkai, which only happened because he took some blows from the Goku SSJ2

[Marlowe89]

Did anyone enjoy certain arcs more in one media than the other? And if so, why? What could the other version have done to make it better?

Once upon a time I preferred the anime's version of the Trunks/Black/Zamasu/whatever arc over the manga's, and I think I've said as much in this thread. Having recently marathoned the arc again in a non-weekly/monthly format, my opinion has somewhat changed and I think the manga's version actually holds up better when looked at as a whole.

To be clear, I'm still of the opinion that the anime has an edge over the manga in characterization and some of the emotional tones (upon further reflection, Goku and Vegeta actually had better characterization in the manga, but Trunks and Black are arguably the primary objects of attention in this story -- I think they were ultimately handled better in the anime as far as individual traits or personal development goes) but the pacing, fights and general structure? Those were just outright, flat-out superior in the manga. This isn't an aspect of the plot that one can simply brush aside as "less important" than character development either; as a completely candid shonen series, the implementation of battles and scaling consistency ties very strongly and fundamentally into the narrative as a whole. Without them, you'd wind up with tons of issues that actually bleed into overall story/character aspects that make the franchise what it is.

I mean, Vegeta's God-Blue switching strategy against Black is probably one of the coolest things I've seen him do in the entirety of the franchise. More importantly though, it fits within the grander motif of battles often having a sort of tactical approach that perfectly encapsulates the standard Dragon Ball fights we've come to enjoy and is easily preferable to the overused "Huzzah! I've surpassed my limits through incredibly contrived rage or friendship boosts!" trope that was relied on so commonly throughout the anime. It even applies to Black, who - instead of conjuring forth a seemingly infinite supply of power boosts in one way or another - ends up using a completely different countermeasure involving fusion because both his and Zamasu's hands were forced rather than the fusion happening only as a result of one of them getting frazzled. Likewise, Goku's method of growing stronger during that arc involves him learning to absorb the leaking power of Super Saiyan Blue within his body, which is distinct from Vegeta's method while fitting within previously established mechanics of Blue in that medium. I think it works because it benefits the narrative and themes in a way that the anime simply doesn't, and while the manga still has the occasional rage boost, it doesn't monotonously rely on them just to conveniently resolve a crisis. That's good writing.

Stuff like this is why it's so easy to point to some of the manga's structural advantages over the anime, especially in the Future Trunks arc. This tight sense of cohesion is the same reason I'd say that the Battle of Gods and Resurrection F films beat out their serialized counterparts any day of the week. The manga isn't without its problems, but it's better material in every way that matters -- limitations are clearly defined, rules are being followed in clever ways, and encounters are arguably more interesting as a result because the protagonists' solutions to increasingly challenging dilemmas are either harder to predict or more consistent and simultaneously diverse in their exploitations. That's exactly the kind of writing I'd expect from Toriyama at his best, and Toyotaro fits that bill in spades.

[Bergamo]

How were Krillin and Tien screwed over? They got eliminated, but we always knew that they were going to be eliminated early on. I don't think it was any better having Tien double eliminate with fodder character #11.

It would have been awesome if Gohan squad take out Magetta or Botamo as a team then I won't be as mad when they got one shotted.

I agree that the humans should have got a team elimination, but I don't think the current rendition of the story is anything to be mad about. I did expect the humans to get at least one elimination, but they facilitated the erasure of an entire universe, so it more than makes up for their lackluster performance.

[JazzMazz]

Can I just say, that I felt like the events of chapter 18, 19 and 20 were far better handled in the anime's episode 56 and 57.

Vegeta's fight against Goku Black was infinitely better handled to me in the anime. From the base fight, which actually served to build legitimate tension, to the reveal of SS Rose and Vegeta's subsequent defeat. It was all handled in a way that served to enhance the tension and deepen the mystery of the arc.

Also, though I know a lot of people didn't like it(even though I thought it was fine), Goku and Trunks double team battle with Black and Zamasu was far more engaging than Goku and Vegeta's battle against Zamasu and Black, which I found, really really lacklustre. Also I felt the unravelling of the mystery in the manga so early on actually served as a detriment to the rest of the arc, and to, it seemed like Toyotaro dropped those elements as quickly as possible in order to provide a exaplanation for Black's power, which was, extremely underwhelming.

I myself do prefere many things in the manga over the anime, but I here, I feel like the anime sort of peaked, while the manga here was definitely at its flattest.

[Whatever]

But it is you who are assuming that Hitto was made weak to benefit Vegeta in some way. This makes no sense.

Making Hitto be weaker Goku SSB in power, Toyotaro automatically was also making him be weaker than Vegeta. It was not something meant to benefit any particular character as you are saying, and he did not need to explain

Then what was the benefit of making Hit be so weak?Hit being so weak that he can't even match the 2nd strongest of Beeru's team negates the whole point of the tournament(which is this arc all about).

But you're talking as if the anime version was correct, in which Goku actually became 10x more powerful than Vegeta, and the manga is '' wrong '' because Vegeta was not weaker than Goku, only with 10% of his power
Why the version that benefits Goku is correct, and the version that supposedly benefits Vegeta is wrong?

In both versions Goku is 1 way or another 10 times stronger than Vegeta,in the manga he is still the stronger of the 2 regardless of the gap.
The only benefit the 1/10 power rule had,was to make Vegeta not look as wimp,a justification for being destroyed,it also made Hit look pathetic when again the point of the tournament was to face someone strong.

It became clear that Vegeta had been rage-boosting after seeing Goku, Trunks and Mai defeated. He had even put his life at risk with the Gamma Flash Burst because the technique was very powerful and Vegeta had not yet recovered. There's nothing wrong here. Gamma Burst Flash is much stronger than Final Flash

Thats never became clear,Vegeta just randomly vaporized 2 opponents he could not 1vs1 a few seconds ago while battle damaged.
Gamma Burst Flash being stronger than Final Flash does not change anything since its just a generic kii blast.

Goku and Vegeta have no connection with Black and Zamasu?

The first had his family and himself killed in another timeline, while the second had his wife Bulma killed, and the life of his son Trunks destroyed because of the actions of the enemy
So they also had a big connection with the villains.

I never said that Goku had no connection with them,Future Trunks and Goku had more connection to them,yet Vegeta still got most of the spotlight in the manga.

What's wrong with Black being defeated twice? At first, he was still getting used to Goku's body, but when he suffered a zenkai, he dominated Vegeta and made him and the others flee to the past. Vegeta trained and managed to overcome it.
Honestly, this is better than base Black being able to hit hits on SSB Vegeta after suffering a zenkai, which only happened because he took some blows from the Goku SSJ2

It makes the villain feel underwhelming on top of the Gamma Burst Flash feat which makes the villlain even more pathetic.
Not that i can blame you for liking it,i am sure Vegeta fans would like this fanservice as it despite making the villain being pathetic,Vegeta comes out looking good.

[ToshioWrites]

1. Vegeta was at LESS than 1/10, people for whatever reason miss the LESS than part, considering Hit had to go full power just to fight ssg goku, its clear he wasn't at full power when fighting vegeta which probably alludes to vegeta being at way less than 10% which means goku being 10 times stronger probably wasn't in the outline. Its just as likely toriyama said something about "familiar red aura"

2. Merged Zamasu clones can regenerate and like M Zamasu were at best 100% blue level in power so vegeta while angry putting everything into one attack, blowing two of them up only to have them regenerate isn't some big issue like you are making it out to be. You act like goku was hundreds of times above vegeta in power when that just isn't the case

3. HIt was nerfed to make Vegeta look good so how about M Zamasu? Goku black alone was ssb level and zamasu beat the shit out of ss1 goku, now potara fuse them and tell me how it makes sense for that to be only equal to 100% blue goku? Maybe toyo was trying to make goku look good to keep fanboys happy

4. Black killed F bulma and ruined F Trunks life,so yes vegeta had more of a connection to him than goku whose only connection was zamasu snaking his body which if you remember is something ginyu did as well. Unlike in the anime, manga black didn't kill chichi or goten so it was never personal so you are offbase again.

[Exline]

Once upon a time I preferred the anime's version of the TrunksArc over the manga's, my opinion has somewhat changed and I think the manga's version actually holds up better when looked at as a whole.

I'm still of the opinion that the anime has an edge over the manga in characterization and some of the emotional tones (upon further reflection, Goku and Vegeta actually had better characterization in the manga, but Trunks and Black are arguably the primary objects of attention in this story -- I think they were ultimately handled better in the anime as far as individual traits or personal development goes) but the pacing, fights and general structure? Those were just outright, flat-out superior in the manga. This isn't an aspect of the plot that one can simply brush aside as "less important" than character development either; as a completely candid shonen series, the implementation of battles and scaling consistency ties very strongly and fundamentally into the narrative as a whole. Without them, you'd wind up with tons of issues that actually bleed into overall story/character aspects that make the franchise what it is.

I mean, Vegeta's God-Blue switching strategy against Black is probably one of the coolest things I've seen him do in the entirety of the franchise. More importantly though, it fits within the grander motif of battles often having a sort of tactical approach that perfectly encapsulates the standard Dragon Ball fights we've come to enjoy and is easily preferable to the overused "Huzzah! I've surpassed my limits through incredibly contrived rage or friendship boosts!" trope that was relied on so commonly throughout the anime. It even applies to Black, who - instead of conjuring forth a seemingly infinite supply of power boosts in one way or another - ends up using a completely different countermeasure involving fusion because both his and Zamasu's hands were forced rather than the fusion happening only as a result of one of them getting frazzled. Likewise, Goku's method of growing stronger during that arc involves him learning to absorb the leaking power of Super Saiyan Blue within his body, which is distinct from Vegeta's method while fitting within previously established mechanics of Blue in that medium. I think it works because it benefits the narrative and themes in a way that the anime simply doesn't, and while the manga still has the occasional rage boost, it doesn't monotonously rely on them just to conveniently resolve a crisis. That's good writing.

Stuff like this is why it's so easy to point to some of the manga's structural advantages over the anime, especially in the Future Trunks arc. The manga isn't without its problems, but it's better material in every way that matters -- limitations are clearly defined, rules are being followed in clever ways, and encounters are arguably more interesting as a result because the protagonists' solutions to increasingly challenging dilemmas are either harder to predict or more consistent and simultaneously diverse in their exploitations. That's exactly the kind of writing I'd expect from Toriyama at his best, and Toyotaro fits that bill in spades.

I agree with nearly everything you've stated. You summed up my opinion towards both arcs.

I don't want to come across as a hater of the anime, but I've just felt so bored of all the arcs due to how poorly they were storyboarded and directed imo. I never even decided to rewatch any episodes that came before the beginning of the ToP. The manga however always has me engaged in it's story. I reread the manga more than I rewatch the anime and I think that says something about Toyotaro's capabilities as a writer. Without music, sound effects, and voice actors, he can still generate a story from beginning to end that keeps me so invested I just have to give it another read. I feel like I can hear the punches and blasts and screams of our characters within the manga. Seeing the anime do it pre-ToP just looked so lame. Every fight felt really flat and lacked that great choreography we saw often in DB and in DBZ somewhat. The ToP is the only arc in the anime that really kept me interested in the show.

How were Krillin and Tien screwed over? They got eliminated, but we always knew that they were going to be eliminated early on. I don't think it was any better having Tien double eliminate with fodder character #11.

It would have been awesome if Gohan squad take out Magetta or Botamo as a team then I won't be as mad when they got one shotted.

I agree that the humans should have got a team elimination, but I don't think the current rendition of the story is anything to be mad about. I did expect the humans to get at least one elimination, but they facilitated the erasure of an entire universe, so it more than makes up for their lackluster performance.

I agree Bergamo, I do wish they could've done more as well, but it's fine how the narrative played off their eliminations.

All I really wanted was for Krillin to at least get more panels doing something cool. He didn't even have to eliminate them, just show off one of his attacks and then get blindsided by Frost in the middle of his attack.
This kinda shows that everyone on that poster may not be as important as we think.

[TheSaiyanGod]

But it is you who are assuming that Hitto was made weak to benefit Vegeta in some way. This makes no sense.

Making Hitto be weaker Goku SSB in power, Toyotaro automatically was also making him be weaker than Vegeta. It was not something meant to benefit any particular character as you are saying, and he did not need to explain

Then what was the benefit of making Hit be so weak?Hit being so weak that he can't even match the 2nd strongest of Beeru's team negates the whole point of the tournament(which is this arc all about).

The second strongest? At this point in the saga, Goku and Vegeta were on the same level. There was no Kaioken and no MSSB yet, so Hitto was no weaker than the '' second strongest. ''

The point was that he was unable to use his murder techniques, which limited him far more than normal.
In particular, Hitto's power ups in the anime were greatly exaggerated, with him conveniently '' evolving '' in the middle of the battle just to accompany Goku

But you're talking as if the anime version was correct, in which Goku actually became 10x more powerful than Vegeta, and the manga is '' wrong '' because Vegeta was not weaker than Goku, only with 10% of his power
Why the version that benefits Goku is correct, and the version that supposedly benefits Vegeta is wrong?

In both versions Goku is 1 way or another 10 times stronger than Vegeta,in the manga he is still the stronger of the 2 regardless of the gap.
The only benefit the 1/10 power rule had,was to make Vegeta not look as wimp,a justification for being destroyed,it also made Hit look pathetic when again the point of the tournament was to face someone strong.

No, currently in the manga he is not the strongest of the two. Whis said that Vegeta closed the gap between him and Goku in Chapter 27 after he used the MSSB.
This weakness of the SSB shown in this fight served for Goku and Vegeta to find their own way of improving the transformation, which was very important in Future Trunks saga. It has nothing to do with '' was that Vegeta did not look like a coward, '' when in fact in this fight he never showed it. Hitto was weaker than SSB anyway (as in the anime), and his Time Skip was more limited, so anyway, it would not make sense for him to beat SSB Vegeta without the energy expenditure of the transformation

It became clear that Vegeta had been rage-boosting after seeing Goku, Trunks and Mai defeated. He had even put his life at risk with the Gamma Flash Burst because the technique was very powerful and Vegeta had not yet recovered. There's nothing wrong here. Gamma Burst Flash is much stronger than Final Flash

Thats never became clear,Vegeta just randomly vaporized 2 opponents he could not 1vs1 a few seconds ago while battle damaged.
Gamma Burst Flash being stronger than Final Flash does not change anything since its just a generic kii blast.

No, Vegeta did not 'ramdomly vaporized '' Zamasu, it was clearly a boost rage. Review the scene (ignore this translation):

[spoiler][/spoiler]

So you can understand how Vegeta was able to destroy 2 Mergerd Zamasu.

And no matter if the Gamma Flash Burst is just another generic Ki attack, it proved to be much stronger than the Final Flash. In DB, even though a Ki attack seems to be generic, it may be stronger than the other and an example of this is Galick Ho and the Final Flash.
Vegeta has always used a charged Final Flash when he needed to defeat more powerful enemies, few times we see him using Galick Ho to finish some enemy. Even in DB this was visible

What's wrong with Black being defeated twice? At first, he was still getting used to Goku's body, but when he suffered a zenkai, he dominated Vegeta and made him and the others flee to the past. Vegeta trained and managed to overcome it.
Honestly, this is better than base Black being able to hit hits on SSB Vegeta after suffering a zenkai, which only happened because he took some blows from the Goku SSJ2

It makes the villain feel underwhelming on top of the Gamma Burst Flash feat which makes the villlain even more pathetic.
Not that i can blame you for liking it,i am sure Vegeta fans would like this fanservice as it despite making the villain being pathetic,Vegeta comes out looking good.

What link does Gamma Burst Flash have with the first fights against Black and Zamasu?
This technique was only used at the end of the arc.

Cell was beaten several times until he was able to attain his strongest form. In the manga, Black was defeated once, then overtaken Vegeta and destroyed him in two different transformations (SSJ and SSJ Rosé), and only then was he overtaken when Vegeta trained
And the final enemy was not even him, but Merged Zamasu, who caused far more problems than Black

[Bergamo]

1. Vegeta was at LESS than 1/10, people for whatever reason miss the LESS than part, considering Hit had to go full power just to fight ssg goku, its clear he wasn't at full power when fighting vegeta which probably alludes to vegeta being at way less than 10% which means goku being 10 times stronger probably wasn't in the outline. Its just as likely toriyama said something about "familiar red aura"

2. Merged Zamasu clones can regenerate and like M Zamasu were at best 100% blue level in power so vegeta while angry putting everything into one attack, blowing two of them up only to have them regenerate isn't some big issue like you are making it out to be. You act like goku was hundreds of times above vegeta in power when that just isn't the case

3. HIt was nerfed to make Vegeta look good so how about M Zamasu? Goku black alone was ssb level and zamasu beat the shit out of ss1 goku, now potara fuse them and tell me how it makes sense for that to be only equal to 100% blue goku? Maybe toyo was trying to make goku look good to keep fanboys happy

4. Black killed F bulma and ruined F Trunks life,so yes vegeta had more of a connection to him than goku whose only connection was zamasu snaking his body which if you remember is something ginyu did as well. Unlike in the anime, manga black didn't kill chichi or goten so it was never personal so you are offbase again.

Potara fusion isn't as strong as people think. Vegetto was only as strong as he was because goku and vegeta were extremely powerful saiyans and sworn rivals, and that combination culminated in an extremely powerful being. If you remember Kibitokai was the fusion of two beings that were around the strength of goten and Trunks individually, but they were nowhere near the power of gotenks, because Kai fusion isn't as powerful as Saiyan fusion. It's because of Zamas being a Kai and the two fusees being the same person that God Zamas was only marginally stronger than Black.

What really warrants God Zamas' existence rather than keeping black is his regeneration and Kaioshin fighting style. Zamas' power is juxtaposed with his role as a Kaioshin. He has the power to enforce his justice, but that is in spite of everything he's supposed to be.

[Miracles]

Why are people mad cause in the manga Goku and Vegeta are actually stronger than their anime counterparts? Thus making the villians seem impotent?

[ToshioWrites]

1. Vegeta was at LESS than 1/10, people for whatever reason miss the LESS than part, considering Hit had to go full power just to fight ssg goku, its clear he wasn't at full power when fighting vegeta which probably alludes to vegeta being at way less than 10% which means goku being 10 times stronger probably wasn't in the outline. Its just as likely toriyama said something about "familiar red aura"

2. Merged Zamasu clones can regenerate and like M Zamasu were at best 100% blue level in power so vegeta while angry putting everything into one attack, blowing two of them up only to have them regenerate isn't some big issue like you are making it out to be. You act like goku was hundreds of times above vegeta in power when that just isn't the case

3. HIt was nerfed to make Vegeta look good so how about M Zamasu? Goku black alone was ssb level and zamasu beat the shit out of ss1 goku, now potara fuse them and tell me how it makes sense for that to be only equal to 100% blue goku? Maybe toyo was trying to make goku look good to keep fanboys happy

4. Black killed F bulma and ruined F Trunks life,so yes vegeta had more of a connection to him than goku whose only connection was zamasu snaking his body which if you remember is something ginyu did as well. Unlike in the anime, manga black didn't kill chichi or goten so it was never personal so you are offbase again.

Potara fusion isn't as strong as people think. Vegetto was only as strong as he was because goku and vegeta were extremely powerful saiyans and sworn rivals, and that combination culminated in an extremely powerful being. If you remember Kibitokai was the fusion of two beings that were around the strength of goten and Trunks individually, but they were nowhere near the power of gotenks, because Kai fusion isn't as powerful as Saiyan fusion. It's because of Zamas being a Kai and the two fusees being the same person that God Zamas was only marginally stronger than Black.

What really warrants God Zamas' existence rather than keeping black is his regeneration and Kaioshin fighting style. Zamas' power is juxtaposed with his role as a Kaioshin. He has the power to enforce his justice, but that is in spite of everything he's supposed to be.

Seems stupid that earings worn by kaioshins don't work for them but work for saiyans. Anyways wasn't goku black technically a saiyan body fusing with a kai apprentice? Toriyama made him too weak IMO and the anime was way too inconsistent with m zamasu power. IMO it should have been like Buuhan vs Goku and Vegeta, Where individually they have ZERO chance but as vegito they absolutely dominate

[Bergamo]

Why are people mad cause in the manga Goku and Vegeta are actually stronger than their anime counterparts? Thus making the villians seem impotent?

I agree completely. I don't see the appeal of Goku Black being undefeatable and then fusing to become even more powerful. Zamas was so powerful that he had to be Deus Ex Machina'd out of the story.

[Bergamo]

1. Vegeta was at LESS than 1/10, people for whatever reason miss the LESS than part, considering Hit had to go full power just to fight ssg goku, its clear he wasn't at full power when fighting vegeta which probably alludes to vegeta being at way less than 10% which means goku being 10 times stronger probably wasn't in the outline. Its just as likely toriyama said something about "familiar red aura"

2. Merged Zamasu clones can regenerate and like M Zamasu were at best 100% blue level in power so vegeta while angry putting everything into one attack, blowing two of them up only to have them regenerate isn't some big issue like you are making it out to be. You act like goku was hundreds of times above vegeta in power when that just isn't the case

3. HIt was nerfed to make Vegeta look good so how about M Zamasu? Goku black alone was ssb level and zamasu beat the shit out of ss1 goku, now potara fuse them and tell me how it makes sense for that to be only equal to 100% blue goku? Maybe toyo was trying to make goku look good to keep fanboys happy

4. Black killed F bulma and ruined F Trunks life,so yes vegeta had more of a connection to him than goku whose only connection was zamasu snaking his body which if you remember is something ginyu did as well. Unlike in the anime, manga black didn't kill chichi or goten so it was never personal so you are offbase again.

Potara fusion isn't as strong as people think. Vegetto was only as strong as he was because goku and vegeta were extremely powerful saiyans and sworn rivals, and that combination culminated in an extremely powerful being. If you remember Kibitokai was the fusion of two beings that were around the strength of goten and Trunks individually, but they were nowhere near the power of gotenks, because Kai fusion isn't as powerful as Saiyan fusion. It's because of Zamas being a Kai and the two fusees being the same person that God Zamas was only marginally stronger than Black.

What really warrants God Zamas' existence rather than keeping black is his regeneration and Kaioshin fighting style. Zamas' power is juxtaposed with his role as a Kaioshin. He has the power to enforce his justice, but that is in spite of everything he's supposed to be.

Seems stupid that earings worn by kaioshins don't work for them but work for saiyans. Anyways wasn't goku black technically a saiyan body fusing with a kai apprentice? Toriyama made him too weak IMO and the anime was way too inconsistent with m zamasu power. IMO it should have been like Buuhan vs Goku and Vegeta, Where individually they have ZERO chance but as vegito they absolutely dominate

There is absolutely no appeal in a Vegetto wins ending. That type of ending exists in spite of the Dragonball franchise's theme of training and dedication. "You think you're fusion is strong? Our fusion is super strong!"

[ToshioWrites]

Potara fusion isn't as strong as people think. Vegetto was only as strong as he was because goku and vegeta were extremely powerful saiyans and sworn rivals, and that combination culminated in an extremely powerful being. If you remember Kibitokai was the fusion of two beings that were around the strength of goten and Trunks individually, but they were nowhere near the power of gotenks, because Kai fusion isn't as powerful as Saiyan fusion. It's because of Zamas being a Kai and the two fusees being the same person that God Zamas was only marginally stronger than Black.

What really warrants God Zamas' existence rather than keeping black is his regeneration and Kaioshin fighting style. Zamas' power is juxtaposed with his role as a Kaioshin. He has the power to enforce his justice, but that is in spite of everything he's supposed to be.

Seems stupid that earings worn by kaioshins don't work for them but work for saiyans. Anyways wasn't goku black technically a saiyan body fusing with a kai apprentice? Toriyama made him too weak IMO and the anime was way too inconsistent with m zamasu power. IMO it should have been like Buuhan vs Goku and Vegeta, Where individually they have ZERO chance but as vegito they absolutely dominate

There is absolutely no appeal in a Vegetto wins ending. That type of ending exists in spite of the Dragonball franchise's theme of training and dedication. "You think you're fusion is strong? Our fusion is super strong!"

I didn't mean vegito should win, he didn't win in the buu arc either but i would have rather they been able to run out zamasu fusion time and then the whole spreading everywhere thing happens and zeno erases him. The fact that m zamasu was only as strong as the real power of ssb goku was such a disappointment, makes ss1 black beating up ssb vegeta seem so unimpressive in hindsight when you know that if vegeta could fully utilize blue, he would have smoked him right then without needing the ROSAT

[Bergamo]

Seems stupid that earings worn by kaioshins don't work for them but work for saiyans. Anyways wasn't goku black technically a saiyan body fusing with a kai apprentice? Toriyama made him too weak IMO and the anime was way too inconsistent with m zamasu power. IMO it should have been like Buuhan vs Goku and Vegeta, Where individually they have ZERO chance but as vegito they absolutely dominate

There is absolutely no appeal in a Vegetto wins ending. That type of ending exists in spite of the Dragonball franchise's theme of training and dedication. "You think you're fusion is strong? Our fusion is super strong!"

I didn't mean vegito should win, he didn't win in the buu arc either but i would have rather they been able to run out zamasu fusion time and then the whole spreading everywhere thing happens and zeno erases him. The fact that m zamasu was only as strong as the real power of ssb goku was such a disappointment, makes ss1 black beating up ssb vegeta seem so unimpressive in hindsight when you know that if vegeta could fully utilize blue, he would have smoked him right then without needing the ROSAT

To be fair, Completed Blue is a very different power than Blue, and the SS1 Black that beat Vegeta was moments away from unlocking Rosé, so it wasn't really the same SS1 that Goku and Vegeta have.

[sintzu]

Vegeta has no connection at all with the villians and he is just along for the ride.

Never mind the fact Black killed his wife and is trying to kill his son.

[kn83]

Why are people mad cause in the manga Goku and Vegeta are actually stronger than their anime counterparts? Thus making the villians seem impotent?

I agree completely. I don't see the appeal of Goku Black being undefeatable and then fusing to become even more powerful. Zamas was so powerful that he had to be Deus Ex Machina'd out of the story.

Because in a battle series like Dragonball, weaker antagonist completely undermines the victories of the heroes and it takes away any tension and credibility from the fight. It doesn't actually Goku and Vegeta look stronger at all, because their fights weren't truly difficult. The manga version of Goku vs Hit makes it clear that Goku could have immediately stomped him if he just turned Blue from the start. That doesn't make Goku look stronger, It makes Hit look like a joke. Giving easy wins over a main antagonist in a battle anime/manga is never a good thing.

Part of what made King Piccolo, Scouter Vegeta, Frieeza and Cell so great and memorable as villains of the original series was because of how dominant they were portrayed over the heroes for most of their arcs. It made their inevitable defeat all the more satisfying and well earned. None of the major battles in the Super manga ever give off that quality, they just feel like cheap fanservice made to make Goku and Vegeta look as good as possible. SSJ Goku vs 100% Freeza on Namek (as well as MUI Goku vs Awakened Jiren in ep.130) such a great fight was that even though Goku was stronger it was still an all-out difficult fight for him. The anime version of Vegito vs Merged Zamasu was superior to the manga verison for this same reason because Vegito beating him actually feels like an accomplishment, while the manga version just feels like empty fanservice for Vegito fans. Vegeta finally beating up Black in the anime was better than its manga version for the same reason.

Also, Zeno-Ex-Machina happened in the manga too.

[kn83]

Potara fusion isn't as strong as people think. Vegetto was only as strong as he was because goku and vegeta were extremely powerful saiyans and sworn rivals, and that combination culminated in an extremely powerful being. If you remember Kibitokai was the fusion of two beings that were around the strength of goten and Trunks individually, but they were nowhere near the power of gotenks, because Kai fusion isn't as powerful as Saiyan fusion. It's because of Zamas being a Kai and the two fusees being the same person that God Zamas was only marginally stronger than Black.

What really warrants God Zamas' existence rather than keeping black is his regeneration and Kaioshin fighting style. Zamas' power is juxtaposed with his role as a Kaioshin. He has the power to enforce his justice, but that is in spite of everything he's supposed to be.

1. All of that is pure headcanon and goes against what is actually stated about how potara fusion works in the Daizenshuu and Super.

2. There is zero official info on how strong KibitoShin actually is, but Shin is easily way stronger than Goten and Trunks due to the fact that he is stronger than Buu saga Piccolo, who was at least relative to Cell Games Goku. Goten and Trunks were at best equal to A18 from the Android arc.

3. The official explanation for potara fusion is that it is the max power of both partners combined then multipied by "tens of times", then boosted again by a rival boost (which has no official universal number and varies based on the personalities of the partners).

4. It was never stated anywhere that the race of the partners has any impact on the power levels of the fusion.

[Bergamo]

Why are people mad cause in the manga Goku and Vegeta are actually stronger than their anime counterparts? Thus making the villians seem impotent?

I agree completely. I don't see the appeal of Goku Black being undefeatable and then fusing to become even more powerful. Zamas was so powerful that he had to be Deus Ex Machina'd out of the story.

Because in a battle series like Dragonball, weaker antagonist completely undermines the victories of the heroes and it takes away any tension and credibility from the fight. It doesn't actually Goku and Vegeta look stronger at all, because their fights weren't truly difficult. The manga version of Goku vs Hit makes it clear that Goku could have immediately stomped him if he just turned Blue from the start. That doesn't make Goku look stronger, It makes Hit look like a joke. Giving easy wins over a main antagonist in a battle anime/manga is never a good thing.

Part of what made King Piccolo, Scouter Vegeta, Frieeza and Cell so great and memorable as villains of the original series was because of how dominant they were portrayed over the heroes for most of their arcs. It made their inevitable defeat all the more satisfying and well earned. None of the major battles in the Super manga ever give off that quality, they just feel like cheap fanservice made to make Goku and Vegeta look as good as possible. SSJ Goku vs 100% Freeza on Namek (as well as MUI Goku vs Awakened Jiren in ep.130) such a great fight was that even though Goku was stronger it was still an all-out difficult fight for him. The anime version of Vegito vs Merged Zamasu was superior to the manga verison for this same reason because Vegito beating him actually feels like an accomplishment, while the manga version just feels like empty fanservice for Vegito fans. Vegeta finally beating up Black in the anime was better than its manga version for the same reason.

Also, Zeno-Ex-Machina happened in the manga too.

No one ever defeated Zamas in the anime. Trunks just cut him in half randomly because they needed to wrap up the arc. How is it satisfying when the heroes are never actually stronger than the villain, but win anyways because of plot. Goku vs God Zamas is satisfying because Zamas is so imposing and it seems like Goku's body could break at anytime.

[Bergamo]

Potara fusion isn't as strong as people think. Vegetto was only as strong as he was because goku and vegeta were extremely powerful saiyans and sworn rivals, and that combination culminated in an extremely powerful being. If you remember Kibitokai was the fusion of two beings that were around the strength of goten and Trunks individually, but they were nowhere near the power of gotenks, because Kai fusion isn't as powerful as Saiyan fusion. It's because of Zamas being a Kai and the two fusees being the same person that God Zamas was only marginally stronger than Black.

What really warrants God Zamas' existence rather than keeping black is his regeneration and Kaioshin fighting style. Zamas' power is juxtaposed with his role as a Kaioshin. He has the power to enforce his justice, but that is in spite of everything he's supposed to be.

1. All of that is pure headcanon and goes against what is actually stated about how potara fusion works in the Daizenshuu and Super.

2. There is zero official info on how strong KibitoShin actually is, but Shin is easily way stronger than Goten and Trunks due to the fact that he is stronger than Buu saga Piccolo, who was at least relative to Cell Games Goku. Goten and Trunks were at best equal to A18 from the Android arc.

3. The official explanation for potara fusion is that it is the max power of both partners combined then multipied by "tens of times", then boosted again by a rival boost (which has no official universal number and varies based on the personalities of the partners).

4. It was never stated anywhere that the race of the partners has any impact on the power levels of the fusion.

Fusion being multiplied tens of times over is probably a hyperbole. You can never trust vague numbers like that.Kibitoshin was not powerful enough to help against buu, so he was probably weaker than Gotenks, and the part about saiyans getting better results from fusion is speculation. I concluded that because saiyans have always been overpowered and all of the strong fusions were saiyans.