Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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LowRyder2005
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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by LowRyder2005 » Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:27 am

Interesting replies. I have to admit, I'm kind of surprised of all the praise the anime is getting -- I personally feel like it's a no contest in favor of the manga: art, plot direction, fights, coreographies, character moments.
Of course, not that we'd be talking about stellar, masterful storytelling for both... but I'd comfortably say the best of the anime falls in my personal "alright" category and the worst of it in the "DUD", while what's bad in the manga falls in the "not so bad" and what's good in "OG DB good". Guess my votes would probably be a "5-" for the anime and a "7,5" for the manga.

I still think that Toyotaro is a bit limited in the scope of the critical "show not tell" aspect, or not really enough of a virtuoso to craft something really meaningful (shonen writer level, that is). However, he also creates content when there are many factors at play and I'd love to see him crank completely original content with Toriyama's supervision (and not just elaborate upon Toriyama's outlines). In short, can't really in good heart outline it as a fault for Toyo, though. The anime writers in turn still fall in the DUD category basically 99% of the time to me. Maybe if the art of the anime was exceptional I'd be willing to let it slide, but everything in that arc if not for some of Vegito vs. Zamas looks just so unremarkable, or even half-baked at times that... eh, dunno. Happy that many liked the anime rendition, though.
Last edited by LowRyder2005 on Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by Kanassa » Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:32 am

HeroR wrote: Also, Black didn't set out to make clones. It was a complete accident after his power grew.
That's why it's convenient to me, he accidentally makes that rift and admits he knows jack shit about what it is, and suddenly it starts spewing backup when he's getting double teamed by Goku and Vegeta. Which, considering that Black at this point was getting his ass kicked by Vegeta alone, saved his ass.
When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:

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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by Lord Beerus » Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:07 am

Kanassa wrote:
HeroR wrote: Also, Black didn't set out to make clones. It was a complete accident after his power grew.
That's why it's convenient to me, he accidentally makes that rift and admits he knows jack shit about what it is, and suddenly it starts spewing backup when he's getting double teamed by Goku and Vegeta. Which, considering that Black at this point was getting his ass kicked by Vegeta alone, saved his ass.
Villains, esepcially in a show like Dragon Ball, always (un)intentionally pull shit out their ass to get them out of trouble. Goku Black in that moment basically pulled a Super Boo/Cell/Freeza, when you think about it. Rememeber in a fit of anger and frustration, after being trapped in the ROSAT, Super Boo basically screamed and unwittingly opened a portal through dimensions which allowed him to escape the ROSAT? Or how Cell was able regenerate (twice) despite the fact the nuclues responsible for allowing him to renegerate had already been destroyed by Goku? Or how about all the tranformations that Freeza conveniently had stored in his locker? Villains always seem to have plot armour on their side when shit gets rough.

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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by Duo » Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:12 am

I do wish that the manga had included the "But I couldn't protect the future" moment when Trunks saw Gohan waving goodbye, but that's probably the only thing I would say the anime nailed better. As much as I did enjoy the Spirit Sword, it is not something that would have happened in the original manga. However, "Go wild until you die" is one of the most perfect demonstrations of what Dragon Ball IS. Toyotaro is fantastic.

Can I also just sing some praise about that last Goku vs Zamasu fight in the manga for a bit? That may be the greatest fight in the franchise since Goku fought Beerus in Battle of Gods.

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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by LowRyder2005 » Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:18 am

Duo wrote:I do wish that the manga had included the "But I couldn't protect the future" moment when Trunks saw Gohan waving goodbye, but that's probably the only thing I would say the anime nailed better. As much as I did enjoy the Spirit Sword, it is not something that would have happened in the original manga. However, "Go wild until you die" is one of the most perfect demonstrations of what Dragon Ball IS. Toyotaro is fantastic.
I think it's maybe one of the two only excerpts from Super that I'd put in a "top moments in the Dragon Ball series" (the other one, for the record, is the anime's rendition of Hit forfaiting his assured win against Monaka -- which has a very classy, DB-esque aftertaste and I found to be built up very, very well in general).

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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by Duo » Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:31 am

LowRyder2005 wrote:I think it's maybe one of the two only excerpts from Super that I'd put in a "top moments in the Dragon Ball series" (the other one, for the record, is the anime's rendition of Hit forfaiting his assured win against Monaka -- which has a very classy, DB-esque aftertaste and I found to be built up very, very well in general).
Well said and strongly agreed on both counts. To maintain the topic at hand, this is something that worked OK in the anime, but worked even better in the manga. The latter maintained a much more dignified and believable manner of building up to that moment.

I don't want to sell the anime short, but it has done several things that would not happen by the pen of Akira Toriyama. There's an almost indescribable trait about his writing that you learn to recognize with enough time flipping through his works. My favorite things about the anime are the standout moments of animation and the voice acting. The "Son Goku!" scream by Merged Zamasu when his halo breaks is a modern legend.

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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by LightBing » Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:32 am

Lord Beerus wrote:Villains, esepcially in a show like Dragon Ball, always (un)intentionally pull shit out their ass to get them out of trouble. Goku Black in that moment basically pulled a Super Boo/Cell/Freeza, when you think about it. Rememeber in a fit of anger and frustration, after being trapped in the ROSAT, Super Boo basically screamed and unwittingly opened a portal through dimensions which allowed him to escape the ROSAT? Or how Cell was able regenerate (twice) despite the fact the nuclues responsible for allowing him to renegerate had already been destroyed by Goku? Or how about all the tranformations that Freeza conveniently had stored in his locker? Villains always seem to have plot armour on their side when shit gets rough.
I agree with all except Freeza. He was always in control, he knew he had more power in store, an ridiculous amount of power actually. Taking that away is undermining the monster he represents, a very intentional monster.

Cell..., that was just a blunder from Mr.Toriyama.

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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by Marlowe89 » Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:36 am

LowRyder2005 wrote:I personally feel like it's a no contest in favor of the manga: art, plot direction, fights, coreographies, character moments.
Overall, I have the feeling that I'm likely going to concur with you by the time Super is over and done with. I already vastly prefer Toyotaro's version of the U6 Tournament arc over Toei's version and considering how disappointed I've been with the Tournament of Power so far, I'm probably going to feel the same way about the current arc as well. I just wish the manga took more risks with its plot direction in the Black arc after seeing the anime's version, which benefited tremendously from that and had more character moments/interactions and a greater narrative impact as a result. With that said, you're absolutely right that this is no fault of Toyotaro's per se.

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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by HeroR » Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:54 am

Kanassa wrote: That's why it's convenient to me, he accidentally makes that rift and admits he knows jack shit about what it is, and suddenly it starts spewing backup when he's getting double teamed by Goku and Vegeta. Which, considering that Black at this point was getting his ass kicked by Vegeta alone, saved his ass.
The hole was only one of things he did. Black explained that he now understood where the Saiyans got their power and used it himself to get stronger. He did nothing different than what the characters themselves have been doing to him from Goku's rage boost, to Super Saiyan Rage, and then Vegeta suddenly jumping in power.
Duo wrote:
LowRyder2005 wrote:I think it's maybe one of the two only excerpts from Super that I'd put in a "top moments in the Dragon Ball series" (the other one, for the record, is the anime's rendition of Hit forfaiting his assured win against Monaka -- which has a very classy, DB-esque aftertaste and I found to be built up very, very well in general).
Well said and strongly agreed on both counts. To maintain the topic at hand, this is something that worked OK in the anime, but worked even better in the manga. The latter maintained a much more dignified and believable manner of building up to that moment.

I don't want to sell the anime short, but it has done several things that would not happen by the pen of Akira Toriyama. There's an almost indescribable trait about his writing that you learn to recognize with enough time flipping through his works. My favorite things about the anime are the standout moments of animation and the voice acting. The "Son Goku!" scream by Merged Zamasu when his halo breaks is a modern legend.
May I asked, what different does that make. Not everything that comes from Toriyama is good on its own and just because the anime doesn't copy how Toriyama's write doesn't mean that they are inferior. The entire Father of Goku came from Toei and people called it better than Minus and prefer the anime version of History Trunks to Toriyama's version.
Last edited by HeroR on Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by perucho1990 » Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:58 am

Duo wrote:
LowRyder2005 wrote:I think it's maybe one of the two only excerpts from Super that I'd put in a "top moments in the Dragon Ball series" (the other one, for the record, is the anime's rendition of Hit forfaiting his assured win against Monaka -- which has a very classy, DB-esque aftertaste and I found to be built up very, very well in general).
Well said and strongly agreed on both counts. To maintain the topic at hand, this is something that worked OK in the anime, but worked even better in the manga. The latter maintained a much more dignified and believable manner of building up to that moment.

I don't want to sell the anime short, but it has done several things that would not happen by the pen of Akira Toriyama. There's an almost indescribable trait about his writing that you learn to recognize with enough time flipping through his works. My favorite things about the anime are the standout moments of animation and the voice acting. The "Son Goku!" scream by Merged Zamasu when his halo breaks is a modern legend.
LIke making a lot of characters irrevelant and garbage(see ToP), or wanking Goku to death, proving Toriyama is a senile old man at this point.

Kubo would be an upgrade over Toriyama in the year 2017.

Its a good thing Toyotaro is learning from Hero Academia(aka best Shounen manga today)

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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by ekrolo2 » Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:09 am

I disagree that Toriyama writing all of this would improve much of anything, everything bad about his writing is in full force in Super and even in the films where he was more involved, it wasn't much better. BoG mostly got away unscathed because he didn't write it from the ground up but there are still moments of stupidity there like Gohan stacking SS on Ultimate and Vegeta of all people getting a rage boost. F is pretty much a precursor to Super's various issues where a character gets absurdly stronger (Freeza) or weaker (Piccolo) with no good reasoning behind it other than just cause, the plot is vapid and hollow and the "character development" actively regresses arcs for Goku & Vegeta that were settled just so it can recycle them over again with an ending that seals the deal.

Dragon Ball's gonna get good when a writer who's writing hasn't been shit for 20 years gets involved with it IE not Toriyama.
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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by HeroR » Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:10 am

perucho1990 wrote: LIke making a lot of characters irrevelant and garbage(see ToP), or wanking Goku to death, proving Toriyama is a senile old man at this point.

Kubo would be an upgrade over Toriyama in the year 2017.

Its a good thing Toyotaro is learning from Hero Academia(aka best Shounen manga today)
So Toriyama not writing the way or what you want is him being senile? Yeah, keep it classy.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by Kanassa » Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:13 am

HeroR wrote:May I asked, what different does that make. Not everything that comes from Toriyama is good on its own and just because the anime doesn't copy how Toriyama's write doesn't mean that they are inferior. The entire Father of Goku came from Toei and people called it better than Minus and prefer the anime version of History Trunks to Toriyama's version.
Not really much to do with what you said, but: You know, I'd say Toriyama is like George Lucas. A lot of good ideas that can be done very well... But by god do not let that man off the leash.
When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:

Kanassa wrote:
FoolsGil wrote:I hope Mark is dead. But chances are the dragonballs will bring his stupid ass back. :D
- FoolsGil, Out of Context, 2017

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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by Lord Beerus » Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:16 am

LightBing wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:Villains, esepcially in a show like Dragon Ball, always (un)intentionally pull shit out their ass to get them out of trouble. Goku Black in that moment basically pulled a Super Boo/Cell/Freeza, when you think about it. Rememeber in a fit of anger and frustration, after being trapped in the ROSAT, Super Boo basically screamed and unwittingly opened a portal through dimensions which allowed him to escape the ROSAT? Or how Cell was able regenerate (twice) despite the fact the nuclues responsible for allowing him to renegerate had already been destroyed by Goku? Or how about all the tranformations that Freeza conveniently had stored in his locker? Villains always seem to have plot armour on their side when shit gets rough.
I agree with all except Freeza. He was always in control, he knew he had more power in store, an ridiculous amount of power actually. Taking that away is undermining the monster he represents, a very intentional monster.

Cell..., that was just a blunder from Mr.Toriyama.
I always felt Freeza's forms just seemed a bit too convenient for the sake of prolonging the narrative. Vegeta seems on par with Freeza, then he tranforms and takes control. The Piccolo arrives and holds his own against the newly transformed Freeza. So Freeza just transforms again. Then Gohan, in a sudden burst of anger overwhelms. And so in response he transforms again. Then Goku arrives and fights Final Form and it later turns out Freeza is still not fighting anywhere near his full power. Freeza could have realistsically went straight to his final form, powered up to 50%, and just slaughtered everyone (Goku included). But then there would be no plot, so...

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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by HeroR » Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:17 am

Kanassa wrote:
HeroR wrote:May I asked, what different does that make. Not everything that comes from Toriyama is good on its own and just because the anime doesn't copy how Toriyama's write doesn't mean that they are inferior. The entire Father of Goku came from Toei and people called it better than Minus and prefer the anime version of History Trunks to Toriyama's version.
Not really much to do with what you said, but: You know, I'd say Toriyama is like George Lucas. A lot of good ideas that can be done very well... But by god do not let that man off the leash.
Can't say I necessary agree since I personally would have liked to see where the Android Saga would have gone if he didn't make Cell, who is the weakest villain he has ever created. And I liked the Buu Saga where he was free to do whatever and have fun, an upgrade from the Cell Saga. Also, some of the best stuff in Dragon Ball came from him telling his handlers to go away like him aging up Goku when they wanted to keep him a kid.
Last edited by HeroR on Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by perucho1990 » Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:18 am

HeroR wrote:
So Toriyama not writing the way or what you want is him being senile? Yeah, keep it classy.
The ratings is great proof that the japanese fans dont care much about the ToP because its mostly filled with fodder/secondary characters that havent being built up.

There is also clear PIS like Jiren failing to eliminate Kale, and Jiren might go down due big time PIS too, which would make him one of the worst antagonists in Shounen since Acnologia..

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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by RedHeat » Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:21 am

perucho1990 wrote:
HeroR wrote:
So Toriyama not writing the way or what you want is him being senile? Yeah, keep it classy.
The ratings is great proof that the japanese fans dont care much about the ToP because its mostly filled with fodder/secondary characters that havent being built up.

There is also clear PIS like Jiren failing to eliminate Kale, and Jiren might go down due big time PIS too, which would make him one of the worst antagonists in Shounen since Acnologia..
Oh boy, here we go.

The Japanese only care about big action episodes mostly involving Goku/Frieza or any main-stay Saiyans.
Last edited by RedHeat on Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by HeroR » Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:21 am

perucho1990 wrote:
HeroR wrote:
So Toriyama not writing the way or what you want is him being senile? Yeah, keep it classy.
The ratings is great proof that the japanese fans dont care much about the ToP because its mostly filled with fodder/secondary characters that havent being built up.

There is also clear PIS like Jiren failing to eliminate Kale, and Jiren might go down due big time PIS too, which would make him one of the worst antagonists in Shounen since Acnologia..
You keep saying stuff like this despite Super keeping the exact ranking it had for months. One Piece's ratings is also down, much be because no one like Whole Cake Island. And why is MHA, the best Shounen on right now according to you, so low compared to Super and One Piece and doing worse than the show it replaced?

Also, did you take a poll or asked the Japanese fandom that they don't like the TOP because "because its mostly filled with fodder/secondary characters that havent being built up" or are you talking out of your ass?
RedHeat wrote:
perucho1990 wrote:
HeroR wrote:
So Toriyama not writing the way or what you want is him being senile? Yeah, keep it classy.
The ratings is great proof that the japanese fans dont care much about the ToP because its mostly filled with fodder/secondary characters that havent being built up.

There is also clear PIS like Jiren failing to eliminate Kale, and Jiren might go down due big time PIS too, which would make him one of the worst antagonists in Shounen since Acnologia..
Oh boy, here we go.

The Japanese only care about big action episodes mostly involving Goku/Frieza or any main-stay Saiyans.
One of Super's best rated episodes was Krillin coming out of retirement in Episode 75.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by Lord Beerus » Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:31 am

Kanassa wrote:
HeroR wrote:May I asked, what different does that make. Not everything that comes from Toriyama is good on its own and just because the anime doesn't copy how Toriyama's write doesn't mean that they are inferior. The entire Father of Goku came from Toei and people called it better than Minus and prefer the anime version of History Trunks to Toriyama's version.
Not really much to do with what you said, but: You know, I'd say Toriyama is like George Lucas. A lot of good ideas that can be done very well... But by god do not let that man off the leash.
I think Toriyama works better when he has to improsive. With what's going in Super he's very much planning, in a very basic sense, out how arcs start, progress and finish. And given how the narrative of the more modern additions to Dragon Ball's story personally penned by him (Dragon Ball Minus, Resurrection F and Super) can be a bit contained and too safe for their own good at times, it's very apparent to see that Toriyama's strong suit is when he's pressed up against a wall and has to think quickly on his feet to come up with a resolution that fits well with what was previously established. 80% of time it worked very well in the manga.

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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by Kanassa » Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:34 am

HeroR wrote:
Kanassa wrote:
HeroR wrote:May I asked, what different does that make. Not everything that comes from Toriyama is good on its own and just because the anime doesn't copy how Toriyama's write doesn't mean that they are inferior. The entire Father of Goku came from Toei and people called it better than Minus and prefer the anime version of History Trunks to Toriyama's version.
Not really much to do with what you said, but: You know, I'd say Toriyama is like George Lucas. A lot of good ideas that can be done very well... But by god do not let that man off the leash.
Can't say I necessary agree since I personally would have liked to see where the Android Saga would have gone if he didn't make Cell, who is the weakest villain he has ever created. And I liked the Buu Saga where he was free to do whatever and have fun, an upgrade from the Cell Saga. Also, some of the best stuff in Dragon Ball came from him telling his handlers to go away like him aging up Goku when they wanted to keep him a kid.
Well... You just made me rethink my statement. I DON'T LIKE THINKING!
When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:

Kanassa wrote:
FoolsGil wrote:I hope Mark is dead. But chances are the dragonballs will bring his stupid ass back. :D
- FoolsGil, Out of Context, 2017

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