Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

[Marlowe89]

At first the flaw was that you couldn't transform over and over like the other transformations, because the act of transforming took a lot of stamina.

That was never the flaw and this definitely seems to be a classic case of misinformation within the fandom. Whis just stated that Blue can't be used in succession because the form heavily drains stamina while the Saiyans use it, not that "the act of transforming" itself consumes stamina. To the contrary, prior to its completion, transforming while attacking was the only method that actually allowed Goku or Vegeta to briefly use close to 100% of its power, provided that they didn't already lose a lot of stamina beforehand (which is precisely what happened in Vegeta's case because he already used the form against Cabba).

This is the same mechanic that was prevalent throughout the Future Trunks arc. It was always "Super Saiyan 3 on steroids" as you put it -- Goku even specifically explained that the switching-while-attacking trick Vegeta used against Black was the exact same trick he himself used to gain the upper hand against Hit.

Using normal Blue (right as he transforms, so he's logically still using the full power) he can't do anything to Beerus, but as soon as he goes Mastered he can actually land a punch on him.

Vegeta never uses Blue's full power against Beerus until he absorbs its energy to become the completed state. As established in the Future Trunks arc, they're not capable of using Blue's full strength unless they're able to transform while attacking or seal its power within their bodies. In other words, Blue's power starts to decrease pretty much immediately and gradually gets even lower over time.

[Rakurai]

Aside from the Goku Black Arc (which I think is terrible in the manga due to turning Black into a generic bad guy, Trunks barely doing anything on his own arc, Vegeta randomly regressing character in the fight against Merged Zamasu, and Merged Zamasu himself being so weak he's beaten by Blue Goku) I don't mind the manga that much. I think it's an inferior product that relies too much on the readers watching the anime equivalent, but I enjoy the different take on Toriyama's outline.

That said, I think Blue is worse in the manga, or at least very confusing. At first the flaw was that you couldn't transform over and over like the other transformations, because the act of transforming took a lot of stamina. Then by the Goku Black Arc it changes to Blue being like SSJ3 on steroids, it drains stamina like crazy and can only be used at full power for a few minutes; I actually don't mind that a lot, I see the blue "chunks" in the aura as energy leaking out, so when they "master" it by sealing the aura makes sense and is kinda cool.

But by the ToP Arc it changes again. Mastered Blue was being able to use the full power of Blue for a longer period, but suddenly sealing the aura makes the user randomly far more powerful? It's shown when Vegeta spars against Beerus. Using normal Blue (right as he transforms, so he's logically still using the full power) he can't do anything to Beerus, but as soon as he goes Mastered he can actually land a punch on him. Yes, Beerus is fooling around, but he's fooling around all the time so it still counts.

If Black is a generic bad guy in the manga then he's a complete Mary Sue in the anime. Black is Zamasu in Goku's body, and the manga exemplified that aspect by showcasing Zamasu's frustration when mortals begin to reach the peak of his own power.

The manga doesn't require the reader watching the anime equivalent. It's advertised as a continuation of the original manga, and since Toyo already did the special chapters leading up to the RoF film, it can be assumed that it's tied to the film as well. The original manga and the RoF film are all you basically need to know prior to the DBS manga in order to understand what's happening.

[EGonzo]

At first the flaw was that you couldn't transform over and over like the other transformations, because the act of transforming took a lot of stamina.

That was never the flaw and this definitely seems to be a classic case of misinformation within the fandom. Whis just stated that Blue can't be used in succession because the form heavily drains stamina while the Saiyans use it, not that "the act of transforming" itself consumes stamina. To the contrary, prior to its completion, transforming while attacking was the only method that actually allowed Goku or Vegeta to briefly use close to 100% of its power, provided that they didn't already lose a lot of stamina beforehand (which is precisely what happened in Vegeta's case because he already used the form against Cabba).

This is the same mechanic that was prevalent throughout the Future Trunks arc. It was always "Super Saiyan 3 on steroids" as you put it -- Goku even specifically explained that the switching-while-attacking trick Vegeta used against Black was the exact same trick he himself used to gain the upper hand against Hit.

Using normal Blue (right as he transforms, so he's logically still using the full power) he can't do anything to Beerus, but as soon as he goes Mastered he can actually land a punch on him.

Vegeta never uses Blue's full power against Beerus until he absorbs its energy to become the completed state. As established in the Future Trunks arc, they're not capable of using Blue's full strength unless they're able to transform while attacking or seal its power within their bodies. In other words, Blue's power starts to decrease pretty much immediately and gradually gets even lower over time.

I'll have to look into the "successive uses" part, but you're probably right and it was just poorly worded in the manga.

The 100% thing is still an issue, though. Vegeta says they can't only use 100% for a short while, meaning his trick against Black and Completed are meant to make that short while last much longer. it may be a "Mastered Super Saiyan" thing where they can focus more power into the form, but it seems that sealing the aura gives them a massive boost, almost like a new transformation, instead of just letting them use 100% for longer.

[Marlowe89]

The 100% thing is still an issue, though. Vegeta says they can't only use 100% for a short while, meaning his trick against Black and Completed are meant to make that short while last much longer. it may be a "Mastered Super Saiyan" thing where they can focus more power into the form, but it seems that sealing the aura gives them a massive boost, almost like a new transformation, instead of just letting them use 100% for longer.

Potentially awkward phrasing/translations notwithstanding, "short while" would have to mean "almost instantly" in Blue's case. Vegeta's tactic of transforming into Blue and then immediately switching back to God before most observers could even notice establishes that the form's full power can only be maintained for some milliseconds before it starts to drop off. That was the whole point of transitioning between forms so quickly; the trick doesn't merely let Vegeta use 100% for longer, it allows him to use it period beyond the initial attacking-while-transforming burst of strength. Goku also confirms this when he says that it lets Vegeta release an explosion of power.

It's also quite possibly the case that the switching method doesn't bring out an absolute 100% of Blue's power, but something at least numerically much closer to it (like say, 95%) than the standard idle use of the form. Either way, we never get to see the "full power" of Blue in the manga outside of the switching strategy or its completed version, so it doesn't really pose a threat to the story's internal consistency.

[LightBing]

Something I noticed some time ago about the approach towards Zamasu.
Toyotarõ makes him an God in the Dragon Ball World, him throwing Katching is the most obvious reference to it. While the anime makes him a real World kind of God, which is completely disconnected to the lore.

It's personally a really big turn-off in the anime. When he fuses with Goku Black he basically becomes a parody of the concept.

[emperior]

Something I noticed some time ago about the approach towards Zamasu.
Toyotarõ makes him an God in the Dragon Ball World, him throwing Katching is the most obvious reference to it. While the anime makes him a real World kind of God, which is completely disconnected to the lore.

It's personally a really big turn-off in the anime. When he fuses with Goku Black he basically becomes a parody of the concept.

Manga Zamasu was boring. He was a parody of the Dragon Ball God concept, utilizing techniques from Kaioshin which weren't even supposed to be techniques just for the sake of being "coherent" with the original manga. There is no originality in Zamasu constantly throwing Katchin blocks just because Kaioshin threw one at Gohan in the manga.
I don't get how Zamasu is a real world kind of God in the anime either, considering how Toriyama always took various aspects of the different Gods from the world when coming up with his own. And even if Zamasu was, there is a point that Zamasu is in fact supposed to be very different from the other Gods in-universe. Even then, I don't get this disconnection from the lore as it doesn't contradict anything at all. Heck, Kami himself was a very "real world kind of God" in the manga, as he observed the world from above without intervention.
I personally like it when they try new things, as that is what Toriyama did too during the original manga run, and it makes the serie feel less stale and played safe.

[SupremeKai25]

While the anime makes him a real World kind of God, which is completely disconnected to the lore.

Even so, when the two Zamases merged, Fused Zamasu became a unique being of untold power and potential, to the point that his mere existence was beyond the Gods' comprehension. He had traits of a God of Creation, for he was able to nurture sentient life, and a God of Destruction, for he destroyed every mortal on Earth for the sake of divine justice and order. In short, Fused Zamasu was the ultimate God. He was no longer a mere Kai. He even said that there was no longer a need for multiple Supreme Kais and Gods of Destruction, for only He, Zamasu, would rule over the Multiverse.

There is no originality in Zamasu constantly throwing Katchin blocks just because Kaioshin threw one at Gohan in the manga.

Agreed. Blades of Judgement/Absolute Lightning/Holy Wrath >>>> Some random blocks of stone.

[LightBing]

Neither version is amazing, my commentary wasn't about which one is better. Only an observation to the writers references to "making a God" and how Toyotarõ feels much more in line with Dragon Ball and how I prefer it because of that.

Toyotarõ fails because he didn't developed the references, maybe making shapes of the katchin, in general just being more creative.

The anime fails because it's also generic in it's choices. No problem in trying something new but the inception is very hit or miss. Maybe if he didn't randomly started using all these attacks, I would like it more; there's some cool stuff in there.

Finally katchin isn't random rocks, I hate when people try to discredit something by putting it down. If you like blades of judgment and the rest more fine, I respect your opinion but go about it another way.

[Exline]

Wait people don't like Zamasu in the Manga?

Lightbing's points are the same as mine as to why I prefer Toyotaro's version of the character.

The anime gave Zamasu some generic attacks that nearly every anime villain have. I don't understand how that makes the anime's version "better" than the manga's.

His ascension to God and his access to these "Divine" Techniques make no sense to me. How did fusion turn him into a God when he was never a Supreme Kai in the first place?

[Bergamo]

When Goku uses MSSB, the explosive power of blue is sealed within his body and focused, so every one of his attacks is similar to the Kamehameha he used against Hit.

[totheark]

His ascension to God and his access to these "Divine" Techniques make no sense to me. How did fusion turn him into a God when he was never a Supreme Kai in the first place?

He was a Supreme Kai in the anime.

[SupremeKai25]

Finally katchin isn't random rocks, I hate when people try to discredit something by putting it down. If you like blades of judgment and the rest more fine, I respect your opinion but go about it another way.

Yes, Katchin Blocks are random blocks of stone. Don't tell me that Katchin is one of the strongest metals in the Universe, because, frankly, It doesn't really matter. Kachi Katchin is even stronger than Katchin and yet look at how much the arena for the Tournament of Power was messed up, despite the fact that it was supposed to be extremely tough and resistant.

The anime gave Zamasu some generic attacks that nearly every anime villain have. I don't understand how that makes the anime's version "better" than the manga's.

Anime Fused Zamasu's attacks are generic? What? Point me to another Dragon Ball villain who could condense their energies into a celestial halo that emitted waves of lightning against any attacker, conjure an endless stream of red-colored blades that exploded upon impact, or create sentient life in the form of a massive lightning-infused winged animal. And all of his techniques had an explanation, they were not random. Blades of Judgement derives from Black's swordsmanship that Fused Zamasu inherited, and the Blades of Judgement closely resembled the Divine Lasso. Holy Wrath resembles the massive orb-shaped ki attack that Black and Zamasu created by combining their separate ki attacks. The Barrier of Light was created when Fused Zamasu combined the two powers that were dissolving within his one body -- immortality and Saiyan strength. And, lastly, the massive winged beast that he summoned derives from the fact that Fused Zamasu, as the fusion of two Gods of Creation, had the ability to create sentient life. Anime Fused Zamasu's techniques were very original and creative, and did not come out of the blue.

Meanwhile, most of Manga Fused Zamasu's techniques were already used by another character. Katchin Blocks --> Shin, Portals --> Janemba, Cloning --> Metal Cooler.

In fact, it is funny that you are complaining that anime Fused Zamasu had abilities that did not make sense from an in-universe perspective, when manga Fused Zamasu could tear rifts into reality ala Janemba even though no Kai ever showed this capability.

It is therefore not a surprise that every videogame so far chose to include the anime incarnation of Fused Zamasu over its manga counterpart.

His ascension to God and his access to these "Divine" Techniques make no sense to me. How did fusion turn him into a God when he was never a Supreme Kai in the first place?

Except he was a Supreme Kai, Black himself states this. He became a Supreme Kai and was therefore able to use the Time Ring, and then he killed Future Gowasu and made his Future counterpart Supreme Kai too. However, Fused Zamasu was no longer a mere Kai, since he had immortality and Saiyan strength, and indeed Shin and Gowasu couldn't even grasp his existence.

[Miracles]

Manga fused Zamasu was never embarrassed like anime fused Zamasu tho. Getting overpowered by Goku's Kameha then squished grapes on his face with his feet with broken arms.

[JazzMazz]

Manga fused Zamasu was never embarrassed like anime fused Zamasu tho. Getting overpowered by Goku's Kameha then squished grapes on his face with his feet with broken arms.

Except, you know, the fact he totally was.

In fact, I would say he was embarrassed just as, or more badly than in the anime. In the anime, Goku did a number on fused Zamasu, and to combat this, fused Zamasu evolved. In the manga, Goku still did a massive number on fused Zamasu, but it instead got to the point where Zamasu nearly destroyed himself completely just to guarantee his victory against Goku.

I fail to see how they both didn't get relatively similar levels of embarrassed.

And thats not even mentioning Manga merged Zamasu's complete humiliation at the hands of Vegetto in the manga.

[Miracles]

Except, you know, the fact he totally was.

In fact, I would say he was embarrassed just as, or more badly than in the anime. In the anime, Goku did a number on fused Zamasu, and to combat this, fused Zamasu evolved. In the manga, Goku still did a massive number on fused Zamasu, but it instead got to the point where Zamasu nearly destroyed himself completely just to guarantee his victory against Goku.

I fail to see how they both didn't get relatively similar levels of embarrassed.

Wait what? Fused zamasu in the manga actually fought toe-to-toe with a full power Blue + Beerus Hakai Goku.
Yet you try and compare that to anime Zamasu who got bodied [INJURED] by a Goku on life support? Not even close.

[JazzMazz]

Except, you know, the fact he totally was.

In fact, I would say he was embarrassed just as, or more badly than in the anime. In the anime, Goku did a number on fused Zamasu, and to combat this, fused Zamasu evolved. In the manga, Goku still did a massive number on fused Zamasu, but it instead got to the point where Zamasu nearly destroyed himself completely just to guarantee his victory against Goku.

I fail to see how they both didn't get relatively similar levels of embarrassed.

Wait what? Fused zamasu in the manga actually fought toe-to-toe with a full power Blue + Beerus Hakai Goku.
Yet you try and compare that to anime Zamasu who got bodied [INJURED] by a Goku on life support? Not even close.

Well, yes, because Goku's beating of Zamasu anime was way more short lived, and nowhere near as effective as Goku's battle against Zamasu in the manga, where he completely demoralized Zamasu to the point of him being perfectly fine with obliterating himself. In the anime, all Goku accomplishedd, at his full power, was slightly scarring Zamasu, knocking Zamasu off his high horse, and making Zamasu mad to the point he powered up even more than he had previously.

[Miracles]

Well, yes, because Goku's beating of Zamasu anime was way more short lived, and nowhere near as effective as Goku's battle against Zamasu in the manga, where he completely demoralized Zamasu to the point of him being perfectly fine with obliterating himself. In the anime, all Goku accomplishedd, at his full power, was slightly scarring Zamasu, knocking Zamasu off his high horse, and making Zamasu mad to the point he powered up even more than he had previously.

Except Manga Full power Blue Goku never beat fused Zamasu in the manga. While anime Zamasu lost that confrontation to a fatigue Goku with a puddy face.
One Zamasu faced a new form the other faced a Goku who could be fed by a tube.

[SupremeKai25]

Manga fused Zamasu was never embarrassed like anime fused Zamasu tho. Getting overpowered by Goku's Kameha then squished grapes on his face with his feet with broken arms.

No, He was embarassed by Vegito. A lot. Anime Fused Zamasu actually put up a very good fight against Vegito, and Vegito himself was fighting seriously, especially after the Final Kamehameha hardly did anything to Fused Zamasu. He became stressed and resolved to ending it quickly. Fused Zamasu was also able to overpower Vegito for a moment. In the manga, though? The fight was extremely onesided, Vegito was just toying with Fused Zamasu.

Besides, Goku's Kamehameha was the strongest that he had ever used up until that point, it was so powerful that it broke his arms. He went beyond his limits to make a Kamehameha like that. And Note that the Kamehameha did not push back the Holy Wrath, since it was too powerful, but it simply pierced it. In addition, Fused Zamasu had been dominating the entire episode. The Absolute Lightning was able to instantly knock unconcious Goku and Vegeta. He himself had immense physical strength, as he was able to parry and crush effortlessly Goku's and Vegeta's arms. And he was easily overpowering Trunks during their beam struggle, and only lost because he wasn't expecing that the power of love and family would be so strong. So Fused Zamasu put up a very good fight against those Saiyans, even though he was defeated in the end.

[JazzMazz]

Well, yes, because Goku's beating of Zamasu anime was way more short lived, and nowhere near as effective as Goku's battle against Zamasu in the manga, where he completely demoralized Zamasu to the point of him being perfectly fine with obliterating himself. In the anime, all Goku accomplishedd, at his full power, was slightly scarring Zamasu, knocking Zamasu off his high horse, and making Zamasu mad to the point he powered up even more than he had previously.

Except Manga Full power Blue Goku never beat fused Zamasu in the manga. While anime Zamasu lost that confrontation to a fatigue Goku with a puddy face.
One Zamasu faced a new form the other faced a Goku who could be fed by a tube.

If your definition of getting beaten is getting knocked to the ground and receiving damage then I still don’t see how that isn’t also applicable to the manga version of merged Zamasu.

Also, I don't see how Goku's use of KaioKen in knocking down Zamasu isn't equivalent with say Goku using completed Blue in the manga.

[Miracles]

No, He was embarassed by Vegito. A lot. Anime Fused Zamasu actually put up a very good fight against Vegito, and Vegito himself was fighting seriously, especially after the Final Kamehameha hardly did anything to Fused Zamasu. He became stressed and resolved to ending it quickly. Fused Zamasu was also able to overpower Vegito for a moment. In the manga, though? The fight was extremely onesided, Vegito was just toying with Fused Zamasu.

Besides, Goku's Kamehameha was the strongest that he had ever used up until that point, it was so powerful that it broke his arms. He went beyond his limits to make a Kamehameha like that. And Note that the Kamehameha did not push back the Holy Wrath, since it was too powerful, but it simply pierced it. In addition, Fused Zamasu had been dominating the entire episode. The Absolute Lightning was able to instantly knock unconcious Goku and Vegeta. He himself had immense physical strength, as he was able to parry and crush effortlessly Goku's and Vegeta's arms. And he was easily overpowering Trunks during their beam struggle, and only lost because he wasn't expecing that the power of love and family would be so strong. So Fused Zamasu put up a very good fight against those Saiyans, even though he was defeated in the end.

Yes Manga Vegetto punked manga Zamasu [that's how it should be] but this has nothing to do with Vegetto. Non of this changes the fact that fused Zamasu was embarrassed/injured in the anime by a fatigue Goku.

If your definition of getting beaten is getting knocked to the ground and receiving damage then I still don’t see how that isn’t also applicable to the manga version of merged Zamasu.

Also, I don't see how Goku's use of KaioKen in knocking down Zamasu isn't equivalent with say Goku using completed Blue in the manga.

Cause Goku actually needed a powerful new mode to compete against a fused character. The story is more believable that way. Still couldn't beat fused Zamasu either. But in the anime Goku is on life support and overpowers a fused Zamasu. Even injuring him in the process, lolol. Some of the worst writing in DB history.