Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by Kanassa » Sun Jun 25, 2017 12:19 pm

LightBing wrote:There's no excuse for Trunks to be able to escape with the power of friendship and humans with smoke grenades and snipers. That's all I have to say about it.
Why shouldn't Trunks be able to escape with what has already proven effective?
When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:

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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by LightBing » Sun Jun 25, 2017 12:31 pm

Kanassa wrote:
LightBing wrote:There's no excuse for Trunks to be able to escape with the power of friendship and humans with smoke grenades and snipers. That's all I have to say about it.
Why shouldn't Trunks be able to escape with what has already proven effective?
Because Black should have evolved to learn from his mistakes and he also has the help of Zamasu, besides both being at the apogee of their motivation (meaning they wouldn't give up and go drink tea, they would pursuit Trunks to the depths of Hell).
You can't present an ever-growing character, who for whatever reason is stunted in this particular and weirdly enough connected to the plot aspect.

The problem isn't complex and he's not a bird to fly constantly into a window. Just my two cents.

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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by Kanassa » Sun Jun 25, 2017 12:45 pm

LightBing wrote: Because Black should have evolved to learn from his mistakes
He can't just make his organs stop being effected by chemical weapons.
When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:

Kanassa wrote:
FoolsGil wrote:I hope Mark is dead. But chances are the dragonballs will bring his stupid ass back. :D
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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by LightBing » Sun Jun 25, 2017 2:42 pm

Kanassa wrote:
LightBing wrote: Because Black should have evolved to learn from his mistakes
He can't just make his organs stop being effected by chemical weapons.
When did they use any chemical weapons? I only remember smoke grenades, projectile type weapons(guns) and explosives.
Even if they did have access to those, that just gives more power to my argument. He should be alerted to what can defeat him/cripple, if it already worked once.

I don't imagine the humans successfully using mustard gas, Black somehow healing himself and just leaving them alone after.

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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by fadeddreams5 » Sun Jun 25, 2017 2:47 pm

I preferred the manga until the Black arc. The Black arc in the manga is awful. Everything that made Goku Black good in the anime was stripped, rendering him into a generic, Turles-like, villain. Just bad choices and ideas all over.
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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by Lord Beerus » Sun Jun 25, 2017 3:43 pm

LightBing wrote:
Kanassa wrote:
LightBing wrote: Because Black should have evolved to learn from his mistakes
He can't just make his organs stop being effected by chemical weapons.
When did they use any chemical weapons? I only remember smoke grenades, projectile type weapons(guns) and explosives.
Even if they did have access to those, that just gives more power to my argument. He should be alerted to what can defeat him/cripple, if it already worked once.

I don't imagine the humans successfully using mustard gas, Black somehow healing himself and just leaving them alone after.
You can't really defend yourself against mustard gas attack or flash grenades. Especially when you don't see them coming. Flash grenade blinds and disorientates you instantly. And mustard gas fucks you up as soon as you make even a bit of contact with it. Just because Goku Black can heal himself doesn't mean he still doesn't feel pain and temporarily lose function of his senses.

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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by LightBing » Sun Jun 25, 2017 4:40 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:You can't really defend yourself against mustard gas attack or flash grenades. Especially when you don't see them coming. Flash grenade blinds and disorientates you instantly. And mustard gas fucks you up as soon as you make even a bit of contact with it. Just because Goku Black can heal himself doesn't mean he still doesn't feel pain and temporarily lose function of his senses.
Again, I buy it working once. If it works again then Black is an idiot, that's my point! He's dealing with creatures he can kill by looking at them, when they lost the surprise factor they are helpless.

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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by Lord Beerus » Sun Jun 25, 2017 4:51 pm

LightBing wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:You can't really defend yourself against mustard gas attack or flash grenades. Especially when you don't see them coming. Flash grenade blinds and disorientates you instantly. And mustard gas fucks you up as soon as you make even a bit of contact with it. Just because Goku Black can heal himself doesn't mean he still doesn't feel pain and temporarily lose function of his senses.
Again, I buy it working once. If it works again then Black is an idiot, that's my point! He's dealing with creatures he can kill by looking at them, when they lost the surprise factor they are helpless.
I really don't see how Black is an idiot for that. I mean, you have a split second at best to react when a flash grenade is thrown as you. Same deal with mustard gas. You can really sense when someone will throw one of those kinds of things at you. Goku Black isn't omnipotent.

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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

Post by The gr » Sun Jun 25, 2017 4:56 pm

I got a question to all of you relating to the Top in the manga
    1-do you have high hopes or excited for it even though you already saw it in the anime
      2-Do you think it will improve on some of the issue you had with this arc
        3-Are you confident Toyo won't screw This up
          4-Do you think is worth waiting month to see this Saga
            5-Do you expect major changes yes or no
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            Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

            Post by Boo Machine » Sun Jun 25, 2017 5:04 pm

            The gr wrote:I got a question to all of you relating to the Top in the manga
              1-do you have high hopes or excited for it even though you already saw it in the anime
                2-Do you think it will improve on some of the issue you had with this arc
                  3-Are you confident Toyo won't screw This up
                    4-Do you think is worth waiting month to see this Saga
                      5-Do you expect major changes yes or no
                      1. I'm pretty excited to see what's different.

                      2. The only issues I've had so far are the padding in some episodes. I kind of expect the manga to skip most of it besides the 17 and Freeza stuff. I don't even think the manga will have the exibition matches. No real reason, i just don't think it will be there.

                      3. There isn't much to screw up. Like I said the only problem I have so far is the padding.

                      4. No way of knowing until it's out.

                      5. I expect quite a few changes. I just couldn't tell you what.
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                      Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

                      Post by emperior » Sun Jun 25, 2017 5:07 pm

                      The gr wrote:I got a question to all of you relating to the Top in the manga
                        1-do you have high hopes or excited for it even though you already saw it in the anime
                          2-Do you think it will improve on some of the issue you had with this arc
                            3-Are you confident Toyo won't screw This up
                              4-Do you think is worth waiting month to see this Saga
                                5-Do you expect major changes yes or no
                                I just expect it to be faster and skip most of the recruitment arc. I believe it won't be as different to the anime as FT arc, though I expect some major difference as always.
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                                Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

                                Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Sun Jun 25, 2017 7:53 pm

                                fadeddreams5 wrote:The Black arc in the manga is awful. Everything that made Goku Black good in the anime was stripped, rendering him into a generic, Turles-like, villain. Just bad choices and ideas all over.
                                I've heard this opinion time after time, but no one ever reasonably quantifies to me what's so different between the two other than Zamasu's ridiculously played-up narcissism that really only exists from episodes 61 to 64. That, and Miki's "NINGEN!!!"

                                In my humble opinion, many people mistake the memes for the characterization to the point where anything that aren't memes aren't good enough.
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                                Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

                                Post by The gr » Sun Jun 25, 2017 7:59 pm

                                Jinzoningen MULE wrote:
                                fadeddreams5 wrote:The Black arc in the manga is awful. Everything that made Goku Black good in the anime was stripped, rendering him into a generic, Turles-like, villain. Just bad choices and ideas all over.
                                I've heard this opinion time after time, but no one ever reasonably quantifies to me what's so different between the two other than Zamasu's ridiculously played-up narcissism that really only exists from episodes 61 to 64. That, and Miki's "NINGEN!!!"

                                In my humble opinion, many people mistake the memes for the characterization to the point where anything that aren't memes aren't good enough.
                                Agreed, but manga Black is just zamas,I don't views him as a generic doomsday villain rather as a whiny villain but I will say his design is good and I like his relation with gowasu in chapter 21 which everyone ignores it
                                  I'm just going for the Anime version because he was More original and he wasn't like zamas
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                                  Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

                                  Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Sun Jun 25, 2017 8:02 pm

                                  The gr wrote:Agreed, but manga Black is just zamas,I don't views him as a generic doomsday villain rather as a whiny villain but I will say his design is good and I like his relation with gowasu in chapter 21 which everyone ignores it
                                    I'm just going for the Anime version because he was More original and he wasn't like zamas
                                    But Goku Black is Zamasu, in both versions. The TV show is just easier to meme.
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                                    Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

                                    Post by DHM211 » Sun Jun 25, 2017 8:57 pm

                                    Jinzoningen MULE wrote:
                                    The gr wrote:Agreed, but manga Black is just zamas,I don't views him as a generic doomsday villain rather as a whiny villain but I will say his design is good and I like his relation with gowasu in chapter 21 which everyone ignores it
                                      I'm just going for the Anime version because he was More original and he wasn't like zamas
                                      But Goku Black is Zamasu, in both versions. The TV show is just easier to meme.
                                      What people love about anime Black is that he's a mix of Goku and Zamasu. He has Goku's love of fighting, his calm demeanor, and doesn't freak out if the fight isn't going his way, all while having Zamasu's god complex. Black even has some things unique to him that neither Goku or Zamasu have, such as his love of beauty and naming his opponents after food courses.
                                      Manga Black is basically Zamasu in Goku's skin. He whines when the fight doesn't go his way. Not to mention, his whole love hate relationship with Goku isnt present. He also fights more like a brute, rather then using unique moves like anime Black(Ki Blade, Divine Lasso, Ki Scythe) He bashes his opponents head into the ground and fires common ki blasts.

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                                      Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

                                      Post by dbgtFO » Mon Jun 26, 2017 12:14 am

                                      Lord Beerus wrote: I really don't see how Black is an idiot for that. I mean, you have a split second at best to react when a flash grenade is thrown as you. Same deal with mustard gas. You can really sense when someone will throw one of those kinds of things at you. Goku Black isn't omnipotent.
                                      A split second should be more than enough when you can perceive and move at unfathomable speeds.

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                                      Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

                                      Post by emperior » Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:29 am

                                      dbgtFO wrote:
                                      Lord Beerus wrote: I really don't see how Black is an idiot for that. I mean, you have a split second at best to react when a flash grenade is thrown as you. Same deal with mustard gas. You can really sense when someone will throw one of those kinds of things at you. Goku Black isn't omnipotent.
                                      A split second should be more than enough when you can perceive and move at unfathomable speeds.
                                      But how would he sense an incoming flashbang?
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                                      Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

                                      Post by Hit!! » Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:52 am

                                      The gr wrote:I got a question to all of you relating to the Top in the manga
                                        1-do you have high hopes or excited for it even though you already saw it in the anime
                                          2-Do you think it will improve on some of the issue you had with this arc
                                            3-Are you confident Toyo won't screw This up
                                              4-Do you think is worth waiting month to see this Saga
                                                5-Do you expect major changes yes or no
                                                I don't think the manga will be too different from the anime due to the fact that i believe that Toei is using the unreleased manga chapters of the ToP arc to do the episodes and i also believe that's the reason the anime is padding so much.

                                                Toyotaro has been working in the ToP arc for a while now. He's been working on it since before the anime got to the ToP arc and that's a fact. The manga chapters that cover the Black arc were made a long time ago.

                                                This is my theory.

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                                                Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

                                                Post by emperior » Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:17 am

                                                I was just thinking about a thing. The canon product in my eyes has always been the one ahead.
                                                I think I might actually consider the manga the official story if it were always weekly.

                                                You might like the manga, but it's undeniable that the main product is the anime. The merchandise is sold based on the anime and the games follow the anime story. The manga is just a side story, which purposefully drastically deviates from the anime for some reason.
                                                I would like it much more if the manga just followed the exact same story from the anime, without padding some things and with some very minor changes here and there. Similar to how the RoF promotional manga and the BoG manga part are. It would be a good way to go through the story in a faster way.
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                                                Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

                                                Post by Lionel » Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:01 pm

                                                Jinzoningen MULE wrote:
                                                fadeddreams5 wrote:The Black arc in the manga is awful. Everything that made Goku Black good in the anime was stripped, rendering him into a generic, Turles-like, villain. Just bad choices and ideas all over.
                                                I've heard this opinion time after time, but no one ever reasonably quantifies to me what's so different between the two other than Zamasu's ridiculously played-up narcissism that really only exists from episodes 61 to 64. That, and Miki's "NINGEN!!!"

                                                In my humble opinion, many people mistake the memes for the characterization to the point where anything that aren't memes aren't good enough.
                                                Well I might be remembering events incorrectly, but the Zamasu from the anime wasn't so ego-maniacal that he was psychotically cackling like a drug user overdosing on cocaine right out of the starting gate who's lost their wits. Make no mistake -- the delusions of grandeur had amplified. The difference I'm noticing is anime Zamasu still retaining the sublime decorum of a Kaioshin and espoused principles of holy righteousness bearing down upon the sinful mortals without needing to shine his teeth like a savage animal with a throbbing vein pulsating whenever he's experiencing anything resembling adversity.

                                                There was also the subtle detailing which separated manga Zamasu from anime Zamasu. For example, with the cartoon format, the character made a greater effort to rationalise his actions like with the fixation he had Trunks. He was aware of the time traveling antics and how the source of the timeline becoming splintered and tumultuous lead back to Earth, specifically Trunks. The accepted universal laws of chrono-exploration dictate that gods and gods alone are permitted to venture through time. What Bulma's machine accomplished was nothing short of a symbolical affront to this implacable edit; like the ningen were spitting on the cherished traditions of the heavens themselves. More amiable celestials like Beerus and Whis even acknowledged the importance of this edict. The motives behind Trunks' actions are irrelevant in Zamasu's eyes as it threw the balance of the timeline into disarray. He saved one timeline but in the process ended up dooming several others since alternative events panned out like Cell murdering Trunks in the third timeline.

                                                Anime Zamasu also felt like he was less vulnerable for falling into the conventional trappings of main DB villains like callously murdering allies for no reason except to reinforce his "evilness". A lot of the manga's villains scarcely interacted with associates in any form which didn't involve business or subjugation. It felt like Zamasu and Black's relationship was different in that we got to see some inkling of genuine, albeit twisted camaraderie like when they embraced each other in a showing of favourable respect for the other or sharing tea with the other as they conversed over their respective powers. Manga Black was more essentialist in thinking that Zamasu was a means to an end with not much else offered to explore their relationship; they even had a brief dispute with each other over the possibility of success for their plan. Black's reaction tried to reassure his associate, but with that sadistic grin on his face and Goku's previous echoes about Zamasu being manipulated echoing throughout that scene, it still seems like a puppet and puppeteer relationship instead of a mutual respect.

                                                In the manga, once Vegetto has emerged, both he and Zamasu proceed to denigrate each other, "power this, power that, you're trash, this can't be happening, you'll lose, blah, blah blah". The anime tries to embellish the banter some with both characters exposing the hypocrisy of the other -- Zamasu chastising Vegetto for daring to oppose him using the very power his class of being does not intrinsically wield and Vegetto searing the reality of a ningen, one whom Zamasu despises, being exploited to increase his power and how it ultimately served as a detriment by interfering with Zamasu's immortality. In the anime, Zamasu perceives himself to be a martyr shouldering the failures of the gods and the violation of natural order at the hands of ningen through this coalescence of their respective forms. He believes he's redeeming the order of the universe and purifying it through his actions. Manga Zamasu just wants to kill Vegetto because he's resisting him (as if Zamasu wasn't already going to kill them all regardless of whether they prostrated themselves in reverential subjugation or not).

                                                Right down to the aesthetics of the characters I can find disparities between the anime and the manga. Manga Black tends to sneer sadistically a lot more. The shaded liner encompassing the ridges of his eyes which is a characteristic only seem in characters like Majin Vegeta didn't help with portraying him in any light that wasn't abjectly malicious. Plus, as I mentioned before, animalistic grins and pulsing veins begetting a lack of composure doesn't help.

                                                The anime tried to establish a more direct connection between Goku and Zamasu through the former helping to investigate the origins of Black. Goku's lack of tact in sensitive matters like the formal addressing of celestials by lower beings helped play into Zamasu's personal discontent with the Saiyan. The audacity in challenging a god to personal combat and subsequent humiliation further exacerbated Zamasu's already shattering psyche. Manga Zamasu concocted his scheme based on what? Watching a stranger fight in some far-flung tournament while coated in God Ki? It makes the printed iteration look gullible, rash even when he's jumping to conclusions based on a video he saw.

                                                From the way Anime Black/Zamasu worded his reasoning for massacring the other gods, it implies that his primary motivation for acting against them directly was an expectation of resistance from them against his agenda. But what if not every god was concerned with the lives of ningen? Surely out of all the deities in existence there would be some who would remain morally detached from the actions of mortals. King Yemma? Popo? Karin? If they weren't standing in Black/Zamasu's way then what purpose would he have to attack them? Manga Zamasu's expressed aim was to centralise holy authority completely around himself and himself alone. No one other god or even intelligence could be allowed to co-exist with him. So what? Does that mean non-simian wildlife who happen to be capable of talking like Octopapa or Turtle are branded for extermination as well? What about synthetic life forms? We're given little insight on what fused Manga Zamasu's aims are except that he wants to be the only intelligent entity left alive. I wonder if he was including Daishinkan and Zeno in his plans when he exclaimed that intention of his.

                                                Just look at the contrasting images of Zamasu when he kills for the first time, both in the manga and the anime.

                                                Image

                                                Cruel smile, immoral satisfaction in killing... Manga Zamasu was delighted to be murdering from the very start. He seemed to take satisfaction in gruesomely slaughtering the barbarian. Now look at the anime's rendition of his reaction. Zamasu's reaction doesn't contain the same fiendish bloodthirstiness as his manga counterpart. It's like he befuddeled at what he just did -- like it's a sensation, an action he's never experienced before and is trying to register in his mind. The look resembles one that a child would have when they've done something they can't comprehend. Anime Zamasu was still on the edge. If given the proper exposure to more prosperous and compassionate ningen like the Namekians, it may have compelled him to reevaluate his beliefs.

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