Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

[OLKv3]

The manga version of the Black arc was boring as all hell. Sure, I didn't fancy the arc as a whole from both forms of media, but at least the anime made Black/Zamasu a decent character and didn't take "emotional damage". Plus, it was nice seeing Trunk's ending him instead of Goku.

But Goku didn't end him in the manga. Trunks did.

[TheMikado]

I'm going to say I prefer the Anime version.

Future Trunks Character, was a lot more sympathetic in the anime.
There was a lot of great character moments and development for Trunks, scenes like this or this.
I liked that he was actively involved; this was HIS timeline to save, and he had the weight of the entire Resistance behind him.

Mai also did a lot in the anime. A lot more than she accomplished in the Manga.
It was a good way to utilize weak Human characters.

In the Manga it wasn't Trunks' fight at at. This arc and Zamasu himself were just expositors
for Goku and Vegeta's abilities and powers. The manga just needed somber moments of introspection.

The ending was weaker in the manga here as well. Trunks had already lost everything when the arc started. So Zeno showing up felt
cheap, Goku just pressed a button and saved the day.

In the anime; saving the day meant protecting the survivors Trunks had built a strong connection to.
So Zeno did not really "save the day" in the anime, he was far too late to do that.

There are a few things at play here. Number one, at least according to the anime. This whole mess started because Goku fought Zamasu and Zamasu(Black) specifically sought out and exacted revenge against Goku. Zamasu even killed Goku's family. Trunks and Bulma and Mai were never ever the actual target. It was never Trunks arc to begin with despite the name, it was The Future Goku Arc starring Future Trunks. Further, and I keep saying this, Trunks has had that whole "Hope" thing going for him. The anime changed the scope of hope. We had Trunk seemingly defeat Zamasu with the help of all those he was trying to protect. It felt amazing as if he was fully realizing his destiny as a symbol and hope! ... And then the ending in the anime happened and everything he fought for was just wiped out...

At least in the manga Trunks has lost everything already. He is already at his lowest point with nothing left except Mai. They are faced with seemingly infinite Zamasu's who states he will not only destroy everything now but can follow them into the past and destroy that too. Literally basically all hope is lost at this point and Trunks has nothing left. Which is when Goku pushes the button and Zeno saves them. Suddenly hope is restored. The presence of Zeno did not cost more losses then he had already experienced. Everything about Zeno's appearance was an upside which you are feel to like or dislike, however there's no denying the emotional mechanism in place.

The endings are vastly different because they leave you in different place emotionally.
The anime raises you up in triump at saving everyone only to drop you pretty hard.
The manga basically has you feel incredibly low and then shoots you up in the end as if they're lucky to be alive and that's the only possible thing they could have hoped to escape with.

[sintzu]

I choose a decent supporting character over a Trunks that consistently uses the power of bullshit to rise up to a challenge time after time.

This.

Trunks in the anime felt like something out of Fairy tail, not DB. I think the main problem with the anime is it tries too hard to be kid friendly so you get none sense like that, the pilaf gang, how Whis stopped Zamasu from killing Gowasu, etc.

I'm not saying DB isn't a kids franchise, just that Toyotarou doesn't insult their intelligence and by doing that he also gains the respect and attention of older fans like myself. When both versions of Super were announced I didn't think I'd pay much attention to the manga cause I thought it would just be a watered down version of the anime but I couldn't have been more wrong. As it turns out the anime is the watered down version.

[Basako]

The endings are vastly different because they leave you in different place emotionally.
The anime raises you up in triump at saving everyone only to drop you pretty hard.
The manga basically has you feel incredibly low and then shoots you up in the end as if they're lucky to be alive and that's the only possible thing they could have hoped to escape with.

It's true, the scene was a bit different because there were still survivors in the anime, while in the manga not. It makes some sense he is more sad in the anime. But it's quite sad anyway for me, that timeline Earth had been saved from the androids and although it was empty now, I had kind of a hope they would use the namekian dragon balls in there to revive the victims of Black and Zamasu. The timeline is gone, I just need to know where Trunks and Mai go in the last panel. Probably the same of the anime, but I need to read it. Not fan of double Trunks and Mai.

The only thing left of that timeline are Trunks, Mai, Zeno and the cat!! Oh, and the time machine.

[perucho1990]

One thing the manga did better than the anime are the Pilaf Gang scenes, the fact that the Mirai Mai interaction with Pilaf is the most interesting part of the chapter, tells you the quality of the manga.

Overall the Trunks Arc in the manga was as good as...Fairy Tails Spriggans Arc.

The Anime main weakpoint is padding ,with bad Pilaf Gang scenes, another thing is the lack of explanations(they only explain some stuff in the Jump Magazine like they mentioning Trunks got stronger due to the training with Vegeta) and the tear gas scene was also bad.

I didnt mind Trunks being relevant in the anime because it was getting a bit tired seeing Goku and Vegeta do all the work again, the manga reeks of DBGT in that aspect. Black and Zamasu in the manga were very generic too, at least in the anime Black had the excuse of not mastering Gokus body completely which was why smoke grenade were affecting him(Pre Rose), Trunks mentioned Black learned to sense Ki after 1 year...

[The gr]

One thing the manga did better than the anime are the Pilaf Gang scenes, the fact that the Mirai Mai interaction with Pilaf is the most interesting part of the chapter, tells you the quality of the manga.

so you think the manga is better doing gags than story in your point of view, I'm really interested hearing your thoughts on that

[perucho1990]

so you think the manga is better doing gags than story in your point of view, I'm really interested hearing your thoughts on that

Toyo does the gags better than Toei, Toei is very hit or miss in that aspect.

If only Toyo could make the antagonists less generic it would help a lot, I just cant picture either Toppo or Jiren acting like cowardly antagonists/showing constant shocked faces like Manga Hit did.

[emperior]

I will compare the power scaling issues from what I can remember:


In the manga, Black is stronger than SSJ2 Trunks, who we learn is on par with SSJ3 Goku.
SSJ Black gets stomped by SSJ2 Vegeta, who also comments that he sees why Trunks couldn't beat him. Now, in order for Vegeta to beat SSJ Black, Vegeta's SSJ2 multiplier has to be more than 20k (base Black is more than 400 times stronger than base Vegeta) - this is insane and in no way that's possible, so it's a great inconstintency, much worse than the anime's. Also, always in the manga, Merged Zamasu kicks base Goku and Vegeta around without killing them.

In the anime SSJ2 Trunks resists a Black Kamehameha as much as SSB Goku.

(Also, why the hell does Black Goku only fire off one Kamehameha in the manga? The one he fired off looked cool as hell, it would have been great to see Black firing one while transformed in the manga too,)

[The gr]

so you think the manga is better doing gags than story in your point of view, I'm really interested hearing your thoughts on that

Toyo does the gags better than Toei, Toei is very hit or miss in that aspect.

If only Toyo could make the antagonists less generic it would help a lot, I just cant picture either Toppo or Jiren acting like cowardly antagonists/showing constant shocked faces like Manga Hit did.

Your confusing rival with antogonist, I don't see jiren acting like cowardly. That,is gonna be horrifying seeing him smiling like hit but Toyo love making characters weaker so expect a weaker #17,jiren and Gohan and a lot screentime for the u6 Saiyan

[perucho1990]

Your confusing rival with antogonist, I don't see jiren acting like cowardly. That,is gonna be horrifying seeing him smiling like hit but Toyo love making characters weaker so expect a weaker #17,jiren and Gohan and a lot screentime for the u6 Saiyan

I mean Jiren is the main antagonist of this Arc like how Hit was in the U6, Zamasu/Black in the Trunks Arc.

Kale is going to get the most screentime out of the U6 Saiyans tbh, because she is Toyos creation.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Although I've stopped reading since I read a majority of the Manga guess I'll comment.
Anime wins no contest at all.
The biggest problem with the Manga is that nothing is fleshed out at all, Black and Zamasu aren't interesting villains in the slightest they're just generic villain #1 & 2. The whole selling point of the arc was the mystery of Black, something Toyo felt he needed to breeze past.

In the anime there was a personal connection between Zamasu and Son Goku, it helped elevate the story and not make it like the Manga where it just felt like another villain for Goku and co to beat.

The Manga lack tension, and Black was a chump. In the anime when he came to past Black was so nonchalant and casual while getting beat up as a viewer your like hmm he's hiding something. Then the big match in the future he dusts himself off goes Rosé and decimates Vegeta, thus showing the audience he has a villain is too be reckoned with. On the flip side the Manga Black was beat like an absolute chump for an entire chapter and it's only because of Zamasu he survived. That's not how you villain as a reader I didn't give a crap about MangaBlack you don't have your title villain beat up for an entire chapter and still expect the reader to be invested.
Another example of tension is the anime where Beerus destroys Zamasu, he didn't do it immediately waiting to see his intent to kill and then do-overing and then killing him, as the audience I am now aware of how evil Zamasu was, his itent was there.
The Zen-Oh button felt more like a cop out everyone was expecting in the Manga from what I've seen as opposed to the anime where it was the worst option.


Homages and fan servicey moments, Toei at least handled this "cooly", Toyo only has a month and it feels like he's going to too much effort in showing us how much of a fans of the series and they getting less subtle.
I want more Gamma Burst moments not a Movie 6 rip off moments.
No matter what the anime did nothing is as awful as the SSG but going SSGSS the moments he attacks Vegeta in the Manga. That was awful, his Manga isn't even merchandise driven so it's clear a pure fanboy moment from him.

Toyo's art also got incredibly sloppy towards the end, he forgot how to even draw Trunks... Come on now.

Overall extremely pleased with the anime, extremely disappointed in the Manga.

It's frustrating as I see potential in Toyotaro, in particular his art it can go places.

[TheSaiyanGod]

How is the manga's Black more incompetent than the anime's?

The anime was fooled by grenades of light and smoke all year round, failing to capture Trunks.
In the manga he was at least letting Trunks live on purpose.

In the manga, Black was left to the brink of death by Zamasu and was cured yes. That's why he went to recruit his '' other self '' in the future.

Only that Zamasu also investigated other timelines, he could not be cured all the time and for that reason Trunks also did it for him.
Ever wondered how long it takes to investigate an entire timeline?

Black from the anime let Goku, Vegeta and Trunks flee twice into the past and failed to kill Trunks

You can't really defend yourself against mustard gas attacks (smoke grenade aren't yellow) or flash grenades. Especially when you don't see them coming. Flash grenade blinds and disorientates you instantly. I really don't see how Black is an idiot for that. I mean, you have a split second at best to react when a flash grenade is thrown as you. Same deal with mustard gas. You can't really sense when someone will throw one of those kinds of things at you. Goku Black isn't omnipotent.

The thing is that he didn't even really need Future Trunks to become stronger. Goku Black knows full well how Zenkai work, given the fact he was using Future Trunks to get stronger. Which doesn't make that much to even begin with because on kick in when you're really battered around. Does this mean that Goku Black put his deliberately put life at risk in an insane gamble to get stronger? He's an idiot. And that kind of fuck ups the power scaling. Because we find out that Goku Black needed Super Saiyan in the past to fight Future Trunks, and if that's the case, how in the hell did Future Trunks not kill Goku Black before the Zenkai's started to kick in? Future Trunks was already a SSJ2 by the time Goku Black came to his timeline. Future Trunks should have slaughtered Goku Black. it make even less considering we later find out that SSJ Goku Black, after all his Zenkai's, is no match for SSJ2 Vegeta, who is weaker than SSJ2 Future Trunks. All that needed to happen is for Future Zamasu to blow a few holes in Goku Black's chest, heal him up, rinse and repeat, and he becomes SSJR and he's ready to go. That seriously would have taken about a few minutes.

Black didn't let Goku, Vegeta and Trunks in the anime escape. Every time they escaped, Goku Black would try to stop them.

Why would grenades of smoke work on someone with his level?
The light grenade one might even understand would be something like Tayoken. But the rest did not.

He turned into Super Saiyajin Rosé and even then did that smoke take effect?

And he was distracted by the resistance several times. Black was not competent enough to only guard against these grenades, not being able to kill him for more than a year?

But that was what Zamasu did. He left Black on the brink of death constantly to make his mind and body more and more connected, that was said.
But did you want it to reach the full potential of the body in a short time, as it did in the anime?

And even so, Black only managed to turn into SSJ, meaning Zamasu needed to do this constantly and the battles against Trunks helped (just as the fight against the Saiyans helped). Zamasu also investigated other timelines so he did not have time to just devote himself to Black.

And just to have let Goku and Vegeta escape several times is that he is incompetent.

[PeanutSaiyan]

Although I've stopped reading since I read a majority of the Manga guess I'll comment.
Anime wins no contest at all.
The biggest problem with the Manga is that nothing is fleshed out at all, Black and Zamasu aren't interesting villains in the slightest they're just generic villain #1 & 2. The whole selling point of the arc was the mystery of Black, something Toyo felt he needed to breeze past.

In the anime there was a personal connection between Zamasu and Son Goku, it helped elevate the story and not make it like the Manga where it just felt like another villain for Goku and co to beat.

The Manga lack tension, and Black was a chump. In the anime when he came to past Black was so nonchalant and casual while getting beat up as a viewer your like hmm he's hiding something. Then the big match in the future he dusts himself off goes Rosé and decimates Vegeta, thus showing the audience he has a villain is too be reckoned with. On the flip side the Manga Black was beat like an absolute chump for an entire chapter and it's only because of Zamasu he survived. That's not how you villain as a reader I didn't give a crap about MangaBlack you don't have your title villain beat up for an entire chapter and still expect the reader to be invested.
Another example of tension is the anime where Beerus destroys Zamasu, he didn't do it immediately waiting to see his intent to kill and then do-overing and then killing him, as the audience I am now aware of how evil Zamasu was, his itent was there.
The Zen-Oh button felt more like a cop out everyone was expecting in the Manga from what I've seen as opposed to the anime where it was the worst option.


Homages and fan servicey moments, Toei at least handled this "cooly", Toyo only has a month and it feels like he's going to too much effort in showing us how much of a fans of the series and they getting less subtle.
I want more Gamma Burst moments not a Movie 6 rip off moments.
No matter what the anime did nothing is as awful as the SSG but going SSGSS the moments he attacks Vegeta in the Manga. That was awful, his Manga isn't even merchandise driven so it's clear a pure fanboy moment from him.

Toyo's art also got incredibly sloppy towards the end, he forgot how to even draw Trunks... Come on now.

Overall extremely pleased with the anime, extremely disappointed in the Manga.

It's frustrating as I see potential in Toyotaro, in particular his art it can go places.

What are you talking about? Zamasu was never a fleshed out character. He went from not hating humanity to hating humanity in like 20 seconds in the anime, it was such a weak and lazy attempt at character development. Black was just "cool", all flash an no substance. It's frustrating because what could have been the most interesting db villains to date were instead a rush job by Toei.

As far as inconsistent art, I also have no idea what you're talking about. The artwork has been a treat whereas in the anime it's objectively atrocious.

And speaking of fan service, that is literally the only selling point of the anime. Giving Vegeta SSG was clever and a nice way to make him shine instead of the usual "job for goku" plot device we've gotten over and over again.

You like Black because he was more omnipotent and flashy in the anime? Fine. But don't confuse that with a well developed character who's convictions are solid.

[PeanutSaiyan]

Also Black not being able to kill a ragtag team of humans throwing gernades and bullets is some of the most nonsensical shit I've seen. These guys move at faster than Lightspeed and are impervious to attacks that would destroy planets, yet we're supposed to believe that they're going to have trouble against normal people? Please.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Although I've stopped reading since I read a majority of the Manga guess I'll comment.
Anime wins no contest at all.
The biggest problem with the Manga is that nothing is fleshed out at all, Black and Zamasu aren't interesting villains in the slightest they're just generic villain #1 & 2. The whole selling point of the arc was the mystery of Black, something Toyo felt he needed to breeze past.

In the anime there was a personal connection between Zamasu and Son Goku, it helped elevate the story and not make it like the Manga where it just felt like another villain for Goku and co to beat.

The Manga lack tension, and Black was a chump. In the anime when he came to past Black was so nonchalant and casual while getting beat up as a viewer your like hmm he's hiding something. Then the big match in the future he dusts himself off goes Rosé and decimates Vegeta, thus showing the audience he has a villain is too be reckoned with. On the flip side the Manga Black was beat like an absolute chump for an entire chapter and it's only because of Zamasu he survived. That's not how you villain as a reader I didn't give a crap about MangaBlack you don't have your title villain beat up for an entire chapter and still expect the reader to be invested.
Another example of tension is the anime where Beerus destroys Zamasu, he didn't do it immediately waiting to see his intent to kill and then do-overing and then killing him, as the audience I am now aware of how evil Zamasu was, his itent was there.
The Zen-Oh button felt more like a cop out everyone was expecting in the Manga from what I've seen as opposed to the anime where it was the worst option.


Homages and fan servicey moments, Toei at least handled this "cooly", Toyo only has a month and it feels like he's going to too much effort in showing us how much of a fans of the series and they getting less subtle.
I want more Gamma Burst moments not a Movie 6 rip off moments.
No matter what the anime did nothing is as awful as the SSG but going SSGSS the moments he attacks Vegeta in the Manga. That was awful, his Manga isn't even merchandise driven so it's clear a pure fanboy moment from him.

Toyo's art also got incredibly sloppy towards the end, he forgot how to even draw Trunks... Come on now.

Overall extremely pleased with the anime, extremely disappointed in the Manga.

It's frustrating as I see potential in Toyotaro, in particular his art it can go places.

What are you talking about? Zamasu was never a fleshed out character. He went from not hating humanity to hating humanity in like 20 seconds in the anime, it was such a weak and lazy attempt at character development. Black was just "cool", all flash an no substance. It's frustrating because what could have been the most interesting db villains to date were instead a rush job by Toei.

As far as inconsistent art, I also have no idea what you're talking about. The artwork has been a treat whereas in the anime it's objectively atrocious.

And speaking of fan service, that is literally the only selling point of the anime. Giving Vegeta SSG was clever and a nice way to make him shine instead of the usual "job for goku" plot device we've gotten over and over again.

You like Black because he was more omnipotent and flashy in the anime? Fine. But don't confuse that with a well developed character who's convictions are solid.

What are you on about he got perfect build up in the anime, straight from his introduction something was off he was hailed as a fighter prodigy and lost to a mortal, him losing to Goku was the catalyst and that's what set him off it wasn't "random".

Also art cannot be objective at all. It's art all about people's taste, I thought his art got sloppy you didn't that's fine, but saying the anime was "objectively atrocious" is 100% false.

Vegeta already "shined" prior it was totally unnecessary, he has SSGSS what is the point of SSG? Nothing other than fan service, which you funnily enough criticised the anime. I could say the same thing Trunks getting a new form is better than the usual Goku and Vegeta getting new forms.

Black's convictions were solid he concocted a well thought out plan, that required the literal universe to be erased to be stopped. He never once panicked even when things didn't look good for him.

[zamasu121]

Also Black not being able to kill a ragtag team of humans throwing gernades and bullets is some of the most nonsensical shit I've seen. These guys move at faster than Lightspeed and are impervious to attacks that would destroy planets, yet we're supposed to believe that they're going to have trouble against normal people? Please.

show me a clip where black was not able to kill people. he slowly killed people because he was having fun, so he kept letting them go.

[Lord Beerus]

How is the manga's Black more incompetent than the anime's?

The anime was fooled by grenades of light and smoke all year round, failing to capture Trunks.
In the manga he was at least letting Trunks live on purpose.

In the manga, Black was left to the brink of death by Zamasu and was cured yes. That's why he went to recruit his '' other self '' in the future.

Only that Zamasu also investigated other timelines, he could not be cured all the time and for that reason Trunks also did it for him.
Ever wondered how long it takes to investigate an entire timeline?

Black from the anime let Goku, Vegeta and Trunks flee twice into the past and failed to kill Trunks

You can't really defend yourself against mustard gas attacks (smoke grenade aren't yellow) or flash grenades. Especially when you don't see them coming. Flash grenade blinds and disorientates you instantly. I really don't see how Black is an idiot for that. I mean, you have a split second at best to react when a flash grenade is thrown as you. Same deal with mustard gas. You can't really sense when someone will throw one of those kinds of things at you. Goku Black isn't omnipotent.

The thing is that he didn't even really need Future Trunks to become stronger. Goku Black knows full well how Zenkai work, given the fact he was using Future Trunks to get stronger. Which doesn't make that much to even begin with because on kick in when you're really battered around. Does this mean that Goku Black put his deliberately put life at risk in an insane gamble to get stronger? He's an idiot. And that kind of fuck ups the power scaling. Because we find out that Goku Black needed Super Saiyan in the past to fight Future Trunks, and if that's the case, how in the hell did Future Trunks not kill Goku Black before the Zenkai's started to kick in? Future Trunks was already a SSJ2 by the time Goku Black came to his timeline. Future Trunks should have slaughtered Goku Black. it make even less considering we later find out that SSJ Goku Black, after all his Zenkai's, is no match for SSJ2 Vegeta, who is weaker than SSJ2 Future Trunks. All that needed to happen is for Future Zamasu to blow a few holes in Goku Black's chest, heal him up, rinse and repeat, and he becomes SSJR and he's ready to go. That seriously would have taken about a few minutes.

Black didn't let Goku, Vegeta and Trunks in the anime escape. Every time they escaped, Goku Black would try to stop them.

Why would grenades of smoke work on someone with his level?
The light grenade one might even understand would be something like Tayoken. But the rest did not.

He turned into Super Saiyajin Rosé and even then did that smoke take effect?

And he was distracted by the resistance several times. Black was not competent enough to only guard against these grenades, not being able to kill him for more than a year?

But that was what Zamasu did. He left Black on the brink of death constantly to make his mind and body more and more connected, that was said.
But did you want it to reach the full potential of the body in a short time, as it did in the anime?

And even so, Black only managed to turn into SSJ, meaning Zamasu needed to do this constantly and the battles against Trunks helped (just as the fight against the Saiyans helped). Zamasu also investigated other timelines so he did not have time to just devote himself to Black.

And just to have let Goku and Vegeta escape several times is that he is incompetent.

They were getting hit by tear gas. That's why both Goku Black and Zamasu were coughing and their vision was getting blurred. Tear gas can seriously fuck you up. Smoke grenades don't have the same effect. Goku Black has Goku body, which means he retains all of his senses, like any normal human being. There nothing to implies he doesn't feel pain and wouldn't temporarily lose function of his senses in certain scenarios. It doesn't matter if you utilize God ki or not, mortals can still die or get severely injured and distracted by natural causes.

And as I've said before... you can't really defend yourself against tear gar or flash grenades which are things you can't see coming. You have a split second at best to react when a flash grenade is thrown as you. Same deal with tear gas. Flash grenade blinds and disorientates you instantly. I really don't see how Black is an idiot for that. You can't really sense when someone will throw one of those kinds of things at you. Goku Black isn't omnipotent and can see when everything will happen before it does.

What was implied was that Goku Black was using Future Trunks become stronger by exploiting the "Zenkai" trait that Goku's body has so that he could achieve SSJR. Future Zamasu's role was limited to just healing Goku Black when he got severely injured. It's specifically why Goku Black allied with Zamasu. Kaioshin literally states that to be the case.

Goku Black did not let Goku and Vegeta escape. He tried to stop Goku and Vegeta from escaping to past on every occasion. Did you actually watch the anime?

Also Black not being able to kill a ragtag team of humans throwing gernades and bullets is some of the most nonsensical shit I've seen. These guys move at faster than Lightspeed and are impervious to attacks that would destroy planets, yet we're supposed to believe that they're going to have trouble against normal people? Please.

show me a clip where black was not able to kill people. he slowly killed people because he was having fun, so he kept letting them go.

Goku Black wasn't even letting any of the humans go. He was killing every human he saw.

[Kanassa]

I think it's obvious that my opinion is heavily in flavor of the Anime. And now that the arc has ended I can finally fully compare the two mediums. For the manga, as I've mentioned before, emotion is it's biggest pitfall. When I think of comparing the two mediums, I'd say the Anime is a story, the Manga is a checklist of plot points. At no point in the manga was I ever emotionally invested in the story, every character felt dry and the few attempts they had at getting across an emotional scene fell flat; it felt like the manga wanted to fast forward to the fights, but begrudgingly had to give context beforehand. You have Future Bulma die off screen and Trunks barely gives the time of day to be sad about it before he seemingly completely forgets about his fucked future. "Oh god, my mom died an- Oh look, video games!"

The character feel less like people expressing their personality, and more like those RP character creation forums where the member is listing the personality traits of their character. There seemed to be no effort put forth to try and get us to care about what was happening. The Anime actually gave a lot of character to the future timeline, showing us the remnants of humanity, their investment in this cause and their devotion to Trunks, being one of the few shonen anime's that tries to make you give a shit about the civilians. With the manga, it just expected that you care because the main character's faces are painted on the panels. Though that makes it a good point that the manga doesn't even bother to try and make Zeno erasing the timeline tragic, Toyo hasn't attempted any investment before hand, it would be dumb to start now.

I also enjoyed the implementation of out--the-box thinking with the use of the resistance, they came up with plans and methods to deal with a being that could kill them with his pinky. Some worked, some didn't. Seriously, why did it take until now for someone to think of biological weapons to use on the bad guys? Yyeha, they're strong, but they still have organs.

Now, onto the villains. Yes, I'm going with the popular opinion of the anime doing Black, but my reasons for disliking the manga version don't really stem much from that. IN the manga, Zamasu and Black are underwhelming and generic. Their problem is that they're not the anime versions, they're problem for me is that I can't ever take them the least bit seriously as characters or see them as anything more than losers in Goku and Vegeta's way. No matter what they do, I have little to no care. Zamasu could exterminate the earth, overpower Zeno and end the story sitting upon a giant throne made from the bones of Goku. And I'd still think he lost somehow. Though, as much as I joke about him stealing from almost every movie villain by the end, I actually did enjoy the techniques he used. Aside fro the cubes... Seriously, dude? Cubes? FUCKING CUBES?! You can do better then that, make a giant golem of katchin or something.

I hear a lot of disappointment over the fact that Manga!MergedZamasu's attacks aren't as flashy as Anime!MergedZamasu. But, as entertaining and cool to look at as those attacks were, I don't think they'd work in the manga. The divine and holy themed attacks work for Anime!Zamasu because it's supposed to show off the Godly being he has become. With Manga!Zamasu, their angle is more focused on reminding us that no matter what, Zamasu never really becomes a god. Which is why his fusion ends up failing. He's a being seeking godhood, but dragged down to the level of mortals by his sins.

The fights are definitely the manga's strength, the art is consistently very good (With the anime it's ht and miss), the choreography is usually top-notch, and while the homages is a problem; I really didn't start to notice them until the ending fight, so it didn't really impact my enjoyment. Though speaking of fights, something that both versions did was they had a set formula to their fights a lot of the time. This could be considered a problem with Dragonball in general, but it's more obvious in this arc. A lot of te fights in this arc boil down to...

Character A: Oh no, if only we had a convenient technique and/or item that could completely help us!
Character B: Oh wait! YOU DO!
Character A: Wow!

Seriously, both versions do this.

Trunks: Oh no, if only I could heal Vegeta and GOku or something...
Shin: Oh wait! You have the power to heal one of them to full strength!
Trunks: Neat!

Vegeta: Oh no, Zamasu's immortal! if only there was some technique that could seal him away or something!
Goku: Oh wait! There's always the mafuuba
Vegeta: HOW MANY TIMES COULD BE HAVE USED THAT!?

Black: Oh no, if only I could makes clones of myself to hold off Goku and Vegeta!
Rift in Time: Oh wai-
Black: WHAT THE FUCK!?

Now, what makes Black in the anime such an entertaining villain has been talked to death, so I don't think I need to beat that bloody corpse at the moment. What I do want to talk about is not Black himself, but his presence. In the anime, they didn't just have a good character, they had a character that was very effective on the narrative. Black had build, grim and proper build up. Both the anime and the Manga had the good and foreboding opening, but the anime went further. You get to see Black's effect on the story, on the character and the location. In meeting the resistance members and building up their rather simple characters, by extension we also build up Black's characters. We hear about the stories of the damage he's done, how much he's pushed the world to the brink with that psychotic grin imprinted on the memories of his victims. With Trunks, even before they go back to the future, we see just how much of an effect Black has had on him. To the point that Trunks's very psyche is threatened by the man, so nervous that he wakes up in a cold sweat, instinctively lashes out at Goku and even when training he can only imagine the multiple ways that Black butchers him. It reminds me of the days leading up to Frieza, where even in the filler you'd hear about him from both King Kai and other characters. I always though Frieza wasn't that good of a villain, but damn did he have some good build up.

In the Manga, Black's presence is not really felt that much. As soon as he steps up against Goku and Vegeta he's reduced to a whiny nine year old, and when he does get the upper hand it feels artificial because it seemed less on him as a villain and more on Vegeta. Which makes it much less impactful when characters get a good punch in. When Vegeta decimates Black in the anime, when Trunks gets to savour that first look of fear from Black, its kick-ass. But when it happens in the manga, it feels severely downgraded because Black was already humiliated, so this feels par for the course, not a rising point.

The most disappointing aspect to me is Trunks. No, I on't say he was completely useless, he did have his moments. But they felt arbitrary, and again, empty. It felt like it was the Cell saga all over again with Trunks being that cool character you like, but is really just there to go "This is the plot, have a nice day". He's yet again the side character when he should have the focus. It was frustrating in the Cell arc and it's still frustrating here. Also, on the point of Trunks/Gohan interaction; yeah, it was nice of TOEI to have that and it did lead to a emotional moment, but I disagree that it's NEEDED. Trunks being Gohan's student in Z felt like an after thought, it does feel off in the anime that NOW he decides to give a shit.

Now, the main points of discussion it the whole ridiculous VS Consistency between the Anime and Manga. Does the Anime leave many things unexplained and leads to some stupid plot holes? Yes. Does that take away from the quality of the arc? Fuck yes, there's so much stupid shit in the anime (And I say this as a person who enjoyed the Pilaf Gang). Is the manga more logical, consistent and makes much more sense? Yes, and I thank it for that. But when I'm looking at a product as a whole, the defining factor is one thing: Entertainment. Despite all the stupid shit, I enjoyed watching the Black arc in the anime, I got emotionally invested, I wanted to see what happened next and Ii cheered even when the bullshit painted the screen and actually got emotional at Dragonball when Trunks said his goodbyes to Gohan (Last time that happened was Krillin's second death), I enjoyed watching it. And that's why I still love it after watching the arc all over again two more times.

With the Manga? At first I was entertained, then I got annoyed at some points, until by the end I was just flat out bored.

[TheSaiyanGod]

You can't really defend yourself against mustard gas attacks (smoke grenade aren't yellow) or flash grenades. Especially when you don't see them coming. Flash grenade blinds and disorientates you instantly. I really don't see how Black is an idiot for that. I mean, you have a split second at best to react when a flash grenade is thrown as you. Same deal with mustard gas. You can't really sense when someone will throw one of those kinds of things at you. Goku Black isn't omnipotent.

The thing is that he didn't even really need Future Trunks to become stronger. Goku Black knows full well how Zenkai work, given the fact he was using Future Trunks to get stronger. Which doesn't make that much to even begin with because on kick in when you're really battered around. Does this mean that Goku Black put his deliberately put life at risk in an insane gamble to get stronger? He's an idiot. And that kind of fuck ups the power scaling. Because we find out that Goku Black needed Super Saiyan in the past to fight Future Trunks, and if that's the case, how in the hell did Future Trunks not kill Goku Black before the Zenkai's started to kick in? Future Trunks was already a SSJ2 by the time Goku Black came to his timeline. Future Trunks should have slaughtered Goku Black. it make even less considering we later find out that SSJ Goku Black, after all his Zenkai's, is no match for SSJ2 Vegeta, who is weaker than SSJ2 Future Trunks. All that needed to happen is for Future Zamasu to blow a few holes in Goku Black's chest, heal him up, rinse and repeat, and he becomes SSJR and he's ready to go. That seriously would have taken about a few minutes.

Black didn't let Goku, Vegeta and Trunks in the anime escape. Every time they escaped, Goku Black would try to stop them.

Why would grenades of smoke work on someone with his level?
The light grenade one might even understand would be something like Tayoken. But the rest did not.

He turned into Super Saiyajin Rosé and even then did that smoke take effect?

And he was distracted by the resistance several times. Black was not competent enough to only guard against these grenades, not being able to kill him for more than a year?

But that was what Zamasu did. He left Black on the brink of death constantly to make his mind and body more and more connected, that was said.
But did you want it to reach the full potential of the body in a short time, as it did in the anime?

And even so, Black only managed to turn into SSJ, meaning Zamasu needed to do this constantly and the battles against Trunks helped (just as the fight against the Saiyans helped). Zamasu also investigated other timelines so he did not have time to just devote himself to Black.

And just to have let Goku and Vegeta escape several times is that he is incompetent.

They were getting hit by tear gas. That's why both Goku Black and Zamasu were coughing and their vision was getting blurred. Tear gas can seriously fuck you up. Smoke grenades don't have the same effect. Goku Black has Goku body, which means he retains all of his senses, like any normal human being. There nothing to implies he doesn't feel pain and wouldn't temporarily lose function of his senses in certain scenarios. It doesn't matter if you utilize God ki or not, mortals can still die or get severely injured and distracted by natural causes.

And as I've said before... you can't really defend yourself against tear gar or flash grenades which are things you can't see coming. You have a split second at best to react when a flash grenade is thrown as you. Same deal with tear gas. Flash grenade blinds and disorientates you instantly. I really don't see how Black is an idiot for that. You can't really sense when someone will throw one of those kinds of things at you. Goku Black isn't omnipotent and can see when everything will happen before it does.

What was implied was that Goku Black was using Future Trunks become stronger by exploiting the "Zenkai" trait that Goku's body has so that he could achieve SSJR. Future Zamasu's role was limited to just healing Goku Black when he got severely injured. It's specifically why Goku Black allied with Zamasu. Kaioshin literally states that to be the case.

Goku Black did not let Goku and Vegeta escape. He tried to stop Goku and Vegeta from escaping to past on every occasion. Did you actually watch the anime?

So Black stayed for a whole year being constantly tricked by these grenades, even knowing about them? It makes no sense.
He should at least beware, already knowing that the resistance would always appear to save Trunks at some point.

No, in the anime, Black only gets SSJ Rosé after fighting Goku.
So much so that in episode 56 he says that he finally completely overpowered Goku's power, indicating that it was only at that time.

But what's weird is that he took just a few strokes from the Goku SSJ2. His '' Zenkai '' also worked very strangely and quickly.
In manga, the process was slower (after all, to connect your mind with another person's body is not something fast).
Yes, Zamasu was '' recruited '' precisely because of the ability to heal Black and make him stronger.

But as we saw in chapter 20, Zamasu was exploring other Time Lines to identify threats. And if they had several Time Rings, then that would take a long time, which is why Trunks also helped Black get stronger.

And in the anime, even Black trying to kill Goku and Vegeta, he just could not. He failed 3 times and did not get angry about it.
For me, it was incompetence

[Lord Beerus]

Why would grenades of smoke work on someone with his level?
The light grenade one might even understand would be something like Tayoken. But the rest did not.

He turned into Super Saiyajin Rosé and even then did that smoke take effect?

And he was distracted by the resistance several times. Black was not competent enough to only guard against these grenades, not being able to kill him for more than a year?

But that was what Zamasu did. He left Black on the brink of death constantly to make his mind and body more and more connected, that was said.
But did you want it to reach the full potential of the body in a short time, as it did in the anime?

And even so, Black only managed to turn into SSJ, meaning Zamasu needed to do this constantly and the battles against Trunks helped (just as the fight against the Saiyans helped). Zamasu also investigated other timelines so he did not have time to just devote himself to Black.

And just to have let Goku and Vegeta escape several times is that he is incompetent.

They were getting hit by tear gas. That's why both Goku Black and Zamasu were coughing and their vision was getting blurred. Tear gas can seriously fuck you up. Smoke grenades don't have the same effect. Goku Black has Goku body, which means he retains all of his senses, like any normal human being. There nothing to implies he doesn't feel pain and wouldn't temporarily lose function of his senses in certain scenarios. It doesn't matter if you utilize God ki or not, mortals can still die or get severely injured and distracted by natural causes.

And as I've said before... you can't really defend yourself against tear gar or flash grenades which are things you can't see coming. You have a split second at best to react when a flash grenade is thrown as you. Same deal with tear gas. Flash grenade blinds and disorientates you instantly. I really don't see how Black is an idiot for that. You can't really sense when someone will throw one of those kinds of things at you. Goku Black isn't omnipotent and can see when everything will happen before it does.

What was implied was that Goku Black was using Future Trunks become stronger by exploiting the "Zenkai" trait that Goku's body has so that he could achieve SSJR. Future Zamasu's role was limited to just healing Goku Black when he got severely injured. It's specifically why Goku Black allied with Zamasu. Kaioshin literally states that to be the case.

Goku Black did not let Goku and Vegeta escape. He tried to stop Goku and Vegeta from escaping to past on every occasion. Did you actually watch the anime?

So Black stayed for a whole year being constantly tricked by these grenades, even knowing about them? It makes no sense.
He should at least beware, already knowing that the resistance would always appear to save Trunks at some point.

No, in the anime, Black only gets SSJ Rosé after fighting Goku.
So much so that in episode 56 he says that he finally completely overpowered Goku's power, indicating that it was only at that time.

But what's weird is that he took just a few strokes from the Goku SSJ2. His '' Zenkai '' also worked very strangely and quickly.
In manga, the process was slower (after all, to connect your mind with another person's body is not something fast).
Yes, Zamasu was '' recruited '' precisely because of the ability to heal Black and make him stronger.

But as we saw in chapter 20, Zamasu was exploring other Time Lines to identify threats. And if they had several Time Rings, then that would take a long time, which is why Trunks also helped Black get stronger.

And in the anime, even Black trying to kill Goku and Vegeta, he just could not. He failed 3 times and did not get angry about it.
For me, it was incompetence

You can't sense a flash grenade and you can't protect yourself from them. Goku Black can't see into the future and tell when flash grenades or tear gas will be used against. What can he do to counter flash grenades or tear gas? Should he start closing his eyes and holding his breath when fights Future Trunks?

I'm talking about how Goku Black attained SSJR in the manga. Not the anime.

I'll admit how Goku Black got stronger was unusual. But according to Toriyama, Saiyans can grow stronger in the midst of battle and can even turn the tide against their opponent the longer the fight goes on:

Only, Saiyans rapidly increase in strength as they fight against strong opponents, so the longer they fought, the more that gap would shrink, and it might even be possible for them to eventually turn the tables.

Goku Black fought with Future Trunks for one year. In the manga version of the events, it took at least one year for Goku Black to go from needing SSJ to fight Future Trunks to become more powerful than SSJ2 Future Trunks/SSJ3 Goku in his base form. And it's explicitly implied that Goku Black utilized the "Zenkai" trait that Goku's Saiyan body possess to get stronger. And Goku Black wouldn't have been able to exploit the Zenkai's the way he did if Future Zamasu wasn't around to heal him. So it didn't take Future Zamasu long to explore the other timelines before arriving in the fashion he did in chapter 20.

Not getting angry for not being able to kill Goku or Vegeta when they were escaping back to the pack isn't a sign of incompetence in the slightest.