Vegeta doesn't care about surpassing Goku anymore.

[SansrivaaL]

That doesnt matter, the fact that GT is non canon and Super is canon matters, Its not really a match anymore, the reason why Goku had a hard time before was because he was already drained since he used up too much energy, Vegeta going ape or not wouldnt have mattered (king kai said so himself)
There is no countering anything, if they do fight, Goku aint gonna go SSJBKK against SSJB Vegeta, we know how Goku loves a challenge, he wont go that far as to have an easy win against Vegeta, at best he'll pull another SSJ2 Goku V Majin Vegeta where he kept his SSJ3. So your idea of SSJBKK Goku V SSJB Vegeta wont happen in universe, unless you do a fanfic story then simply fanfic Vegeta and give him KK as well.

It matters because Toei has always carried over the same biases from GT and appears to be going in a similar direction. But in Dragonball Z, Vegeta's senses, particularly his hearing had increased to the point where even after blinding him Goku had to get distance for the Spirit Bomb instead of engaging up close. Show me the quote where it says Vegeta going great ape wouldn't have mattered.

Vegeta does not fight opponents who sandbag as he regards it as spitting on his honour. You forget that Vegeta was extremely resentful that Goku hid ssj3, and he would not have fought if he knew about it ahead of time. He angrily accused Goku of mocking him. The only reason they fought in the Buu saga was because Vegeta thought he could win against Goku's best.

[spoiler][/spoiler]
Even if he cant transform it doesnt change the fact that he's already in a lot of trouble, thats basically saying he's fcked either way. Goku was already in a state where he would lose easily to Vegeta, transform or not. Similar direction? from where?
I dont really see how going ape will help him, too much blindsides, tail weakness, giant targets, can easily go inside his mouth and enjoy spamming ki blasts there, too much.

Then its settled, a Vegeta and Goku fight wont happen anytime soon. Besides that wouldnt matter to him anymore, the guy accepted that Goku is #1. Also Vegeta already spitted on his pride when he allowed himself to get taken over by Babidi and rely on the boost.

[Boo Machine]

Sometimes I feel like Vegeta fans have problems with object permanence. He isn't there for a few episodes because of family stuff then everyone is just like ,"Vegeta is gone forever! Looks like Hit has to take his place despite the fact that we rarely see Hit but see a shit ton of Vegeta."

I don't see why Goku having a new form of some kind would stop Vegeta. It hasn't stopped him before.

I get that family man Vegeta may not be the most interesting dude ever, but lets not act like the guy is retiring and we will never see him again.

[dragonballgeek]

Why are you guys assuming Vegeta has given up? Is it because he wants to be there for the birth of his second child instead of training..?

[TBMx]

Even if he cant transform it doesnt change the fact that he's already in a lot of trouble, thats basically saying he's fcked either way.

It said he's nearly at his limit. He could still use Kaioken, and did, yet by your logic all he had to do was blindside the great ape once and get the tail off. Couldn't do it though. Even with Kaioken.

Goku was already in a state where he would lose easily to Vegeta, transform or not. Similar direction? from where?
I dont really see how going ape will help him, too much blindsides, tail weakness, giant targets, can easily go inside his mouth and enjoy spamming ki blasts there, too much.

If he can easily go inside his mouth and spam ki blasts why didn't he do it in the Saiyan Saga? Oh right he couldn't.
And the fact that it was already portrayed as a formidable threat that SS4 Goku couldn't beat without assistance, shows that the abilities and weaknesses of the great ape is entirely dependent on the writer. The writer can portray it as they did in GT and earlier in DBZ and have him be too quick to blindside without a lot of difficulty. What the writer can't do however is portray Kaioken as having a stamina weakness as Goku's already been shown spamming it.

Then its settled, a Vegeta and Goku fight wont happen anytime soon.

Or at all.

Besides that wouldnt matter to him anymore, the guy accepted that Goku is #1.

That was retconned. When Vegeta was staying up and lifting weights at night at Whis's place he said he wont lose to Goku.

[Lord Frieza]

Why are you guys assuming Vegeta has given up? Is it because he wants to be there for the birth of his second child..?

Apparently people seem to assume that just because something important has cropped up in his life and he's put training on hold for a bit that he's given up.

There's no evidence that he has done any such thing. Vegeta is actually behaving like a real person, yes he wants to be the strongest but that dose not mean thats his single, overarching priority in his life. He loves his family and views the birth of his daughter ans an occasion he dose not want to miss and he likely wants to be there for his wife. All things that a normal loving husband/father would do and its very in character for modern Vegeta. Only a a backwards, fighting junkie like Goku would skip out on something like this.

Also some seem to still be pinning for old evil Vegeta, even after all these years.



You'd think the'd have gotten used to it by now. Hell its the one thing Vegeta has over almost all the other main caste, he evolves as a character. The one thing that Goku will never beat him at.

[Chuquita]

I'm split, honestly.

My head says "Yes this is a good thing, Vegeta's setting a mature responsible example for the audience and doing right by his family."

But my heart mourns for how much of his saiyan nature is gone and how human he is now. I mourn for his rivalry with Gokû, his explosive entrances, and his passion for fighting along with with pride in himself.

I know he made the right choice, but I can't bring myself to cheer him on because I'd be lying to myself. It's not what I want for his character, but I can't get angry about it because of the positive effects he's bringing about in universe.

[HeroR]

That's not the case, Vegeta and goku are written bad that's all..
You can see how the manga does Handel the same ( similar if you really care about it ) story point in a much better way, the people who complain about Vegeta are perfectly happy with his manga incarnation, and that includes me

They're not written badly, the anime just choses to focus on something else other than Vegeta and Goku's rivalry, which is old hat at this point.

Sometimes I feel like Vegeta fans have problems with object permanence. He isn't there for a few episodes because of family stuff then everyone is just like ,"Vegeta is gone forever! Looks like Hit has to take his place despite the fact that we rarely see Hit but see a shit ton of Vegeta."

I don't see why Goku having a new form of some kind would stop Vegeta. It hasn't stopped him before.

I get that family man Vegeta may not be the most interesting dude ever, but lets not act like the guy is retiring and we will never see him again.

That is because Vegeta's fans are the biggest babies in the fandom. Despite all the screen time he has gotten and being seconded only to Goku, they still managed to whine because Vegeta isn't 'the' strongest or killed a major villain.

[Saturnine]

Well, keep in mind that in the manga continuity where there's no Kaioken Blue, Vegeta might actually be superior to Goku now

[pacz360]

Why are you guys assuming Vegeta has given up? Is it because he wants to be there for the birth of his second child instead of training..?

Apparently waiting for the birth of your baby daughter means you given up fighting all of sudden.
Seriously people we all know vegeta isn't going to give up fighting and he still goku's rival that ain't gonna change.

[sintzu]

Vegeta's fans are the biggest babies in the fandom.

Despite all the screen time he has gotten and being seconded only to Goku, they still managed to whine.

Don't spread false info, we're only 2nd. the honor of #1 goes to the Gohan fans.

And rightfully so, in the manga's Black arc Vegeta was the main character (something that has never happened before for him) and he was the only one to fight the main villain (The 1st villain Goku didn't fight at least once, essentially giving Vegeta his own main villain) so we're kind of annoyed about the anime pulling the rug from under his royal boots in favor of Goku and Trunks.

Well, keep in mind that in the manga continuity where there's no Kaioken Blue, Vegeta might actually be superior to Goku now

Also in the manga continuity he's the only one (I think ?) who can switch SsjB on and off without it wearing him down.

[Analytical Delusion]

SSB Kaioken is canon.

It wasn't in Toriyama's outline so it's not.

What was in the manga was that Goku got 10× stronger than Vegeta and that's how Toei explained it while the manga explained it a different way.

We don't even see it used after the tournament except for a second in the Black arc. If it was a Toriyama plot point then it would've been used more.

Good post, my thoughts exactly. Toyotaro might still pull out the kaioken in the future, but it does seem like it was a Toei-exclusive decision.

In the manga, Vegeta hasn't been left behind at all, if anything he has the edge over Goku. We'll see if it continues into the next arc.

[sintzu]

Good post, my thoughts exactly. Toyotaro might still pull out the kaioken in the future, but it does seem like it was a Toei-exclusive decision.

In the manga, Vegeta hasn't been left behind at all, if anything he has the edge over Goku. We'll see if it continues into the next arc.

Another thing that makes it questionable is that in the very next episode (or the one after that), they kind of wrote it out by having it be so bad for Goku's body that he couldn't use it again (or that much). so the status quo of them being equal was brought back in the very next few episodes.

I would love to get my hands on Toriyama's outline to see exactly what are his ideas, what are Toei's and what are Toyotaruo's. It seems like we have 3 versions of the story which makes things really confusing when trying to figure out what really happened and what didn't.

[TheMikado]

That's not the case, Vegeta and goku are written bad that's all..
You can see how the manga does Handel the same ( similar if you really care about it ) story point in a much better way, the people who complain about Vegeta are perfectly happy with his manga incarnation, and that includes me

They're not written badly, the anime just choses to focus on something else other than Vegeta and Goku's rivalry, which is old hat at this point.

Sometimes I feel like Vegeta fans have problems with object permanence. He isn't there for a few episodes because of family stuff then everyone is just like ,"Vegeta is gone forever! Looks like Hit has to take his place despite the fact that we rarely see Hit but see a shit ton of Vegeta."

I don't see why Goku having a new form of some kind would stop Vegeta. It hasn't stopped him before.

I get that family man Vegeta may not be the most interesting dude ever, but lets not act like the guy is retiring and we will never see him again.

That is because Vegeta's fans are the biggest babies in the fandom. Despite all the screen time he has gotten and being seconded only to Goku, they still managed to whine because Vegeta isn't 'the' strongest or killed a major villain.

But I don't want any of that. GT Vegeta is my favorite Future Vegeta because he's literally don't want to have anything to do with Gokus foolishness at all but still maintains aspects of his pride.

[SaiyanGod117]

GT Vegeta is my favorite Future Vegeta because he's literally don't want to have anything to do with Gokus foolishness at all but still maintains aspects of his pride.

Does Goku in GT really have any foolishness though? He usually always tries the eliminate the threat as quick as possible, from what I can remember.

[TheMathemagician]

Well, keep in mind that in the manga continuity where there's no Kaioken Blue, Vegeta might actually be superior to Goku now

He is > Goku in the manga. Goku has him outclassed in the anime, and Vegeta should have a comfortable lead on Goku in the manga.

Vegeta's fans are the biggest babies in the fandom.

Despite all the screen time he has gotten and being seconded only to Goku, they still managed to whine.

Don't spread false info, we're only 2nd. the honor of #1 goes to the Gohan fans.

And rightfully so, in the manga's Black arc Vegeta was the main character (something that has never happened before for him) and he was the only one to fight the main villain (The 1st villain Goku didn't fight at least once, essentially giving Vegeta his own main villain) so we're kind of annoyed about the anime pulling the rug from under his royal boots in favor of Goku and Trunks.

Well, keep in mind that in the manga continuity where there's no Kaioken Blue, Vegeta might actually be superior to Goku now

Also in the manga continuity he's the only one (I think ?) who can switch SsjB on and off without it wearing him down.

Happy and not happy about that tbh. Vegeta being center stage in the manga version is A-okay in my book, but Goku not fighting Black and Trunks feeling sidelined in his own saga I'm not a fan of, so the anime not having Vegeta be center stage in exchange for having the other two main characters of the saga is completely fine with me. Though I welcome Veggie getting a bigger push in the manga. Though, isn't the main villain Merged Zamasu in the end scheme of things?

[sintzu]

Though, isn't the main villain Merged Zamasu in the end scheme of things?

He would be if he was the villain from the start but he wasn't so it's still Black who's the main villain.

Even if Vegetto ends up killing Zamasu(I hope he does), Vegeta will still be the arc's main hero cause Black was the 1st one to fuse after being kicked around by Vegeta. Black fused with his friend so Vegeta did the same thing.

If Vegeta needed to fuse with Goku just to take down Black then that would be a different story, in that case I'd say Vegetto was the hero or that Goku was alongside Vegeta but the villain is the one who made the 1st move due to him losing so it shouldn't take anything away from what Vegeta's done so far.

This fan base has a habbit of overlooking Vegeta's accomplishments so I doubt the situation will be looked at like that.

[TheMathemagician]

Though, isn't the main villain Merged Zamasu in the end scheme of things?

He would be if he was the villain from the start but he wasn't so it's still Black who's the main villain.

Even if Vegetto ends up killing Zamasu(I hope he does), Vegeta will still be the arc's main hero cause Black was the 1st one to fuse after being kicked around by Vegeta. Black fused with his friend so Vegeta did the same thing.

If Vegeta needed to fuse with Goku just to take down Black then that would be a different story, in that case I'd say Vegetto was the hero or that Goku was alongside Vegeta but the villain is the one who made the 1st move due to him losing so it shouldn't take anything away from what Vegeta's done so far.

This fan base has a habbit of overlooking Vegeta's accomplishments so I doubt the situation will be looked at like that.

Goku was never the hero of this saga lol. That still goes to Zen'o for getting rid of Zamasu.

[Freeza9000]

Though, isn't the main villain Merged Zamasu in the end scheme of things?

He would be if he was the villain from the start but he wasn't so it's still Black who's the main villain.

Even if Vegetto ends up killing Zamasu(I hope he does), Vegeta will still be the arc's main hero cause Black was the 1st one to fuse after being kicked around by Vegeta. Black fused with his friend so Vegeta did the same thing.

If Vegeta needed to fuse with Goku just to take down Black then that would be a different story, in that case I'd say Vegetto was the hero or that Goku was alongside Vegeta but the villain is the one who made the 1st move due to him losing so it shouldn't take anything away from what Vegeta's done so far.

This fan base has a habbit of overlooking Vegeta's accomplishments so I doubt the situation will be looked at like that.

Goku was never the hero of this saga lol. That still goes to Zen'o for getting rid of Zamasu.

Well, Goku was the one that summoned Zen'o.

[TheMathemagician]

He would be if he was the villain from the start but he wasn't so it's still Black who's the main villain.

Even if Vegetto ends up killing Zamasu(I hope he does), Vegeta will still be the arc's main hero cause Black was the 1st one to fuse after being kicked around by Vegeta. Black fused with his friend so Vegeta did the same thing.

If Vegeta needed to fuse with Goku just to take down Black then that would be a different story, in that case I'd say Vegetto was the hero or that Goku was alongside Vegeta but the villain is the one who made the 1st move due to him losing so it shouldn't take anything away from what Vegeta's done so far.

This fan base has a habbit of overlooking Vegeta's accomplishments so I doubt the situation will be looked at like that.

Goku was never the hero of this saga lol. That still goes to Zen'o for getting rid of Zamasu.

Well, Goku was the one that summoned Zen'o.

True, but he wasn't taking anyone down. Zen'o gets all credit for erasing Zamasu. Regardless though, Goku plays a bigger role in the anime version, and Vegeta the manga version. I don't know what the debate several posts above was about though. As far as the hero goes, neither Goku or Vegeta was the hero of this saga. But Veggie is def. main protag in the manga version.

[sintzu]

Well, Goku was the one that summoned Zen'o.

I can't wait to see what happens to Future Trunks' timeline. It'll be interesting if he doesn't erase it with Zamasu.