The 28 planets debacle

[Fizzer]

Doesn't it make more sense to think of this is 28 planets with native ningen/humans/mortals? Pretty sure ningen doesn't include animals and plants, and the 28 probably doesn't include planets that are mostly empty but have colonies from other planets on them (like Freeza Planet 79)

[Alruneia]

Doesn't it make more sense to think of this is 28 planets with native ningen/humans/mortals? Pretty sure ningen doesn't include animals and plants, and the 28 probably doesn't include planets that are mostly empty but have colonies from other planets on them (like Freeza Planet 79)

Animals and plants are not ningen, as shown through Zamasu's very specific destruction.



As you can see, there's a destroyed city and then there's untouched woodlands.

As for colonies, I think proper settler colonies such as Planet Vegeta would count, but outposts such as Frieza Planet 79 would not.

[DNA]

Ok, I rarely contribute to this forum anymore, but this discussion spiked my interest so here's my views on the matter. I did only skim the points made, I'm not going to read every single word.

Firstly, everyone keeps applying real world physics to a work of fiction, I know it's a tendency we have since we have no other point of comparison, but we must suspend disbelief when speaking of a work of fiction. It's the same when people discuss how time travel works, it's time travel, it's fake science, it works whatever way the author decides. As for this, we are forced to consider that the universes within Dragon Ball are simply small and finite. Smaller than ours. We also have to take everything that has been said and throw away what doesn't make sense. Some say there are more galaxies, but a lot of evidence points towards there being just 4. Sometimes more are shown, could this be creative license? Just for cool looks? Other than that, characters are known to lie or simply being misinformed, like Kaio lying about the fate of Planet Vegeta, or Muten Roshi lying about the creation of the Dragon Balls. We cannot take everything that is said as ultimate fact.

As for needing 4 Kaioshins and 4 Kaios, maybe they were needed a long, long time ago when there were more planets with more life, and now whoever is left just stayed until their life span ceases. This can also be the reason why the Kaioshins weren't renewed and there only is the one and the elder was upgraded to Dai Kaioshin.

Consider all the rampages and disasters that have occurred, like others have said; Majin Buu, the Saiyans, Freeza, stray ki shots, Beerus destroying planets on a whim. Freeza controlled hundreds of planets, sure, no one said how many of those were simply outposts. Also bear in mind that Vegeta went on a hunt and must have ended most of those. The remaining were probably abandoned since the organization became so small, they concentrated all the forces in one place.

As Speedster has shown, the evidence lines up, even when you count which planets have been mentioned. Furthermore, you can assume some of those are inhabited now. If you take account for filler, it still lines up, and you also have to consider Broli annihilating an entire galaxy. As for the planets mentioned in the other thread here:
I was under the impression that Metamor was gone, since Goku met them in the Afterlife.
The planet where Table ended isn't mentioned, the one where Gure is from. It still exists and is inhabited. Not sure what it's canonical status is now.
I'm pretty sure Tritek and Eros are dub only non-canonical planets. Maybe others too.
I know that at least one of the planets shown being destroyed by Buu is Alpha.
Vegeta destroys planet Litt specifically, when hunting for remnants of Freeza's Organization.
Planet Shirts is one of the planets shown that Vegeta, Nappa and Raditz conquer. Might be the one mentioned as Shikks. It's shown in filler backstory.

If we're including filler and GT, maybe we should include movies:
There's the planets where the Tullece Corps came from, I believe all of them destroyed.
Planet... Slug? Probably destroyed
The planets where Coola's henchmen came from, conquered by Coola and at this point either destroyed or abandoned.
Makyo Planet, destroyed by Gohan.
Planet Shamo, destroyed by Broli.
Raichi's Dark Planet, destroyed.
Planet Konats which's destiny is unknown.

So, in sum, taking into account a smaller scale of the universe, and the fact that planets with intelligent life probably weren't that many to begin with; we still have a prosperous "Dragon Universe" with various intelligent life forms, but after numerous calamities occurred, only 28 planets with intelligent life remain. Which, albeit not exactly what Kaioshin said, it's probably what it was meant. Given all the evidence and even if you go into "extended universe", it still all more or less lines up and makes sense.

Accepting it or not lies with the individual, but to me, it all seems to make sense within the canonical universe's logic.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Isn't it possible that the seventh universe is smaller than we thought? Though even if it was only the size of a single galaxy, 28 planets with intelligent life would still be too low, considering how common aliens seem to be in the series.

[buutenks]

Quick question how many planets are there in our universe with intelligent life on em?Well?So far 1, ours. So 28 isnt odd. That is actually allot. IDk why people are complaining. Did u expect Star Wars level of populated planets?

[julianix]

Its taking universe 9 a long time to find their fighters..even moving from planet to planet. Seems like the 28 planets thing was for comic relief, it made no sense to begin with.

[Lord Frieza]

I really dont see what the problem is.

In the original series Frieza and his army likely took a tole on the galaxy by themselves. Not only that they had Buu destroy a number of planets to. In Super, Beerus and Goku's battle caused chaos and destruction across across the universe and you also had Champa running around destroying planets while looking for the Super Dragon Balls. And hanging over the universe as a whole you have Beerus's temper mental nature and hair trigger attitude towards destruction.

Is it any wonder U7 is a bit short on developed planets at this time?

Sidra is the worst GoD and Rou is the worst kaioshin, so its only natural that they have a lot of planets but with most of their mortals are very underdeveloped in U9. Its no wonder their having a hard time.

U6 is likely only better then U7 because Champa is to lazy to destroy stuff at random like Beerus dose, but likewise he and Fuwa's seeming laziness mean that U6 is only 10th place purely by virtue of not sucking as much as U7 and U9.

[LowRyder2005]

A picture is worth a thousand plan words.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Its taking universe 9 a long time to find their fighters..even moving from planet to planet. Seems like the 28 planets thing was for comic relief, it made no sense to begin with.

I don't understand what U9 has do to with U7? Sorbet brought a map up in #19 of the entire universe and it only had 28 planets.

[julianix]

Its taking universe 9 a long time to find their fighters..even moving from planet to planet. Seems like the 28 planets thing was for comic relief, it made no sense to begin with.

I don't understand what U9 has do to with U7? Sorbet brought a map up in #19 of the entire universe and it only had 28 planets.

U9 has a lower mortal life than u7 so if we have 28 planets they have what, 10, 12 ?

Either way that statement of 28 planets is ridiculous which can't be taken seriously.

Was it in the manga as well? Even so it's not Toriyama so I can dismiss it as bullshit lazy writing if I want to.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Its taking universe 9 a long time to find their fighters..even moving from planet to planet. Seems like the 28 planets thing was for comic relief, it made no sense to begin with.

I don't understand what U9 has do to with U7? Sorbet brought a map up in #19 of the entire universe and it only had 28 planets.

U9 has a lower mortal life than u7 so if we have 28 planets they have what, 10, 12 ?

Either way that statement of 28 planets is ridiculous which can't be taken seriously.

Was it in the manga as well? Even so it's not Toriyama so I can dismiss it as bullshit lazy writing if I want to.

The ranking is based on quality of mortals not actual number of mortals, the glimpse we had of U9 we already could tell it is a trash universe.

[DNA]

[img]*snip*[/img]

A picture is worth a thousand plan words.

What is that supposed to tell us? That there are many different soldiers? One type of alien doesn't equal one planet. Furthermore, they're remnants, many of their planets were either wiped out by any member of the Freeza Clan, or by Vegeta. That picture tells us absolutely nothing.

Next time, instead of just posting a picture with a snarky comment, actually write something. I think somewhere on the forum rules they talk about precisely that situation.

[TheMikado]

[img]*snip*[/img]

A picture is worth a thousand plan words.

What is that supposed to tell us? That there are many different soldiers? One type of alien doesn't equal one planet. Furthermore, they're remnants, many of their planets were either wiped out by any member of the Freeza Clan, or by Vegeta. That picture tells us absolutely nothing.

Next time, instead of just posting a picture with a snarky comment, actually write something. I think somewhere on the forum rules they talk about precisely that situation.

Yeah, we don't know anything about these species. The issue many people probably have is the number of planets that have been visited or still around, the number of different "mortal" species there are. The King of the galaxy and galaxy patrol, the 4 supreme kais, the for kais, king yemma, etc. Basically for having only 28 planets theres a ton of overhead and unexplained species running around. People just want more explanations about the underlying lore.

[DNA]

Yeah, we don't know anything about these species. The issue many people probably have is the number of planets that have been visited or still around, the number of different "mortal" species there are. The King of the galaxy and galaxy patrol, the 4 supreme kais, the for kais, king yemma, etc. Basically for having only 28 planets theres a ton of overhead and unexplained species running around. People just want more explanations about the underlying lore.

I just gave valid explanations a few posts ago. All the divine beings have existed for several thousand years, and on their time it there were more planets with "mortals"; their existence was warranted. As the planets dwindled due to various disasters, so did their need, but it's not like they'll just retire. This can also explain why there were 4 Kaioshin and a Dai Kaioshin, but now there's one Kaioshin and the Elder East Kaioshin was upgraded to Dai Kaioshin; there was a need for them back then, there's isn't a need for more Kaioshin now.

As for the King of the Galaxy... He is the King of the Galaxy, not the Emperor of the Galaxy. A Kingdom tend to be small. A King of about 28 planets sounds right. By the same token, the Galactic patrol is quite small, as said many times by others.

All the "unexplained races" are remnants of Freeza's army and stuff like that. They're probably worldless now, the world equivalent of being stateless. They used to have home planets, but either Freeza or Vegeta destroyed them. It goes well with their character and backstory. I honestly do not see what the big issue here is.

[CabbaxCaulifla]

Was it in the manga as well? Even so it's not Toriyama so I can dismiss it as bullshit lazy writing if I want to.

You can't actually, because if it's mentioned in the show and the manga, then it was part of Toriyama's outline.

[LowRyder2005]

A picture is worth a thousand plan words.

What is that supposed to tell us? That there are many different soldiers? One type of alien doesn't equal one planet. Furthermore, they're remnants, many of their planets were either wiped out by any member of the Freeza Clan, or by Vegeta. That picture tells us absolutely nothing.

Next time, instead of just posting a picture with a snarky comment, actually write something. I think somewhere on the forum rules they talk about precisely that situation.

I do wallpost, and an awful lot, both in other threads and on the internet in general (I tend to lack concision). That being said, I know the rules and I personally believe writing a comment while providing a stance through visual cues can constitute "something". Unless you are arguing that there is also character limit I don't know of.
That being said I could've brought the Otherworld tournament in which there were shown countless races from supposedly every corner of the universe - but I suppose I'd get the same counter-argument that different races doesn't mean different planets or that they all were from years and years ago.

However, let's start with the manga mentioning "Freeza #79" during the Namek Ark.



Or what about King Kai looking up on his planetary address book which should (I mean theoretically, if it works like a normal address book) be made of current planets to get Namek's address/coordinates in the anime?
Or that in a Shonen Jump issue, Dore is mentioned of being from Cooler #256. Are we supposed to think these guy actually had only one or two planets that gets constantly destroyed (hundreds of time each?). Or that this planet existed and then died/blew-up in-between the last thirty years (what was the point of having a God of Destruction then)? I could also add the fact that no one of this character had any interest to destroy the planets, since Freeza and Cooler were created with the specific idea of representing "evil" real estate investors in mind. They wanted to keep the planets in good conditions so that they could resell them, they're not Majin Buu-type of characters who simply revel in destruction.
Or that, in no uncertain terms, Toriyama said Freeza controlled hundreds of planets at the same time? And for the "uninhabited planet/ only planets with sapients are counted" argument brought some pages ago, which nevertheless does patch some of these holes of these statements: I fail to understand exactly who would need a planet if everyone is stationated in two dozens or so? I mean, he sold planets to single or small groups of aliens who'd live on the planet alone? Actually, wait, let's even admit that, why wouldn't these planets be counted now if hey had life on it? I mean, with this recent knowledge,
who exactly did Freeza have business with (and given the circle of either the few planets with sapient life, the circle of potential buyers who bought from Freeza during these years becomes abnormally restricted: I guess it will turn out Monaka's people or even the Saiyans or Namekians in the first place people bought from Freeza)? I mean, someone had to buy from Freeza, right? Or he didn't really ever sold anything to anyone? I'm confused.

Let's scratch all of this, then. So let's say you honestly before this the world-building included 28 planets with dozens, wait, hundreds of different races on it? Or maybe one planet the size of a million planets, so that many different habitats led to different evolutions? Or that every single planet naturally hosted hundreds of different sapient races? Or even better, there was very, very recently (let's even say in terms of universe age it's like milliseconds) a giant catastrophe suddenly wiped out god-knows-how-many-planets of of an entire universe? And all these different races try to fit in the same space (also, it's worth mentioning that countless planets got destroyed but its races survived)? I mean, you told us this thing makes sense to you? Well, don't know what I can say if not "good for you".

Now, I'm not trying to say that - given the conclusion - you can't find viable justifications for the current situation ("Freeza collected lifeless planets which were ultimately left unsold"; "a great catastrophe wiped out other planets and/or races"; "the planets were destroyed but the races somehow survived"; "similar habitats gave birth to bazillions of different sapient aliens"). What I'm trying to argue is that it's painfully obvious the expanded canon had always, historically thought of one universe with many different races which supposedly belonged to many different planets. This is clearly a poor man's retcon, if not the illest-devised retcon one could think of. Obviously, you can make many, many excuses to try and tip-toe around ALL of these points, but the overwhelming evidence that goes against this last minute excuse makes it - like someone very poignantly said - a "butchering" of the established canon. Because it's just that: cut, cut, cut, cut, cut (Toriyama probably forgetting the implications of some of his older writing and/or DB's expanded canon while writing Jaco seems probable). And there you go, guess you got your wallpost. Which was possibly somewhat unneeded; I still feel the picture above helped exemplify my point just as well.

P.S. The Freeza soldiers were also remnants of the original Freeza's army, not "orphans of their planets". Then again, if you want to see them at the time they weren't "remannts", they were again ostensibly many different alien species:

[jplaya2023]

There are several factors to take into consideration with this new revelation:
1. Majin Boo went on rampage for God knows how long and destroyed countless planets. Hell, Kaioshin himself states that in just a few hundred years he destroyed several hundred planets.
2. Beerus has been around several million years has destroyed countless planets on a whim and nobody can really challenge him on that role.
3. Jaco himself states that there aren't many planets in the universe with life on then in the Jaco The Galactic Patrolman manga.
4. The Saiyan rampaged on countless planets universe before joining Freeza's army
5. Freeza himself went on an unchallenged reign in the universe wiping out God knows how many species or life on planets across the universe, keeping the the planets he wanted and selling off the others for profit
6. Kaioshin doesn't do his homework. Or is the very least very singled-minded. He knew about Freeza but practically knew nothing about the Saiyans. On top of that, Kaioshin had been following Babidi in his spaceship, with the sealed Majin Boo inside, across the universe for God knows how long. I'm thinking that Majin Boo destroyed so much of the universe when he was set free that original by Babidi, that Kaioshin had to keep constant tabs on him, and as a result to protect the life that remained in the universe, didn't have the time to create new planets, as he was supposed to given his role as a creator of life. He didn't want to lose track of Majin Boo and for Babidi to have the chance to ressurect Majin Boo, even if that meant he wouldn't have the time tor create new life-being and planets.

So really, it's perfect feasible for universe 7 to have only 28 planets with mortal life on them. There's more than enough evidence from previously established material to support the claim.

great post, but what happened to the creation that comes from this destruction. The kaioshin might be lazier than beerus since he never took care of frieza or created new planets.

[GodKaio-Ken]

Yeah, we don't know anything about these species. The issue many people probably have is the number of planets that have been visited or still around, the number of different "mortal" species there are. The King of the galaxy and galaxy patrol, the 4 supreme kais, the for kais, king yemma, etc. Basically for having only 28 planets theres a ton of overhead and unexplained species running around. People just want more explanations about the underlying lore.

I just gave valid explanations a few posts ago. All the divine beings have existed for several thousand years, and on their time it there were more planets with "mortals"; their existence was warranted. As the planets dwindled due to various disasters, so did their need, but it's not like they'll just retire. This can also explain why there were 4 Kaioshin and a Dai Kaioshin, but now there's one Kaioshin and the Elder East Kaioshin was upgraded to Dai Kaioshin; there was a need for them back then, there's isn't a need for more Kaioshin now.

As for the King of the Galaxy... He is the King of the Galaxy, not the Emperor of the Galaxy. A Kingdom tend to be small. A King of about 28 planets sounds right. By the same token, the Galactic patrol is quite small, as said many times by others.

All the "unexplained races" are remnants of Freeza's army and stuff like that. They're probably worldless now, the world equivalent of being stateless. They used to have home planets, but either Freeza or Vegeta destroyed them. It goes well with their character and backstory. I honestly do not see what the big issue here is.

The entire Frieza army only covered a quadrant of the universe if I'm not mistaken.

28 planets just makes it seem like either our Kaioshin dont really care and/or it just takes a tremendous amount of time for life to evolve and the planets cant regenerate as fast as are destroyed.

Also if there are only 28 planets left why is Beerus out destroying things? His real job is to provide the balance to creation. Seems like our Kaioshin and Beerus arwnt on the same page.

[DNA]

Well, "our" Kaioshin was really young when all the others died, so I suppose he wasn't even sure what he had to do. Heck, he didn't even know about Potaras or the Z-Sword. What else didn't he know?
Beerus is shown to destroy planets on a whim, not to keep any balance.
Life does that a long, long time to evolve though.
The universe has a low rating for a reason.

[GodKaio-Ken]

Well, "our" Kaioshin was really young when all the others died, so I suppose he wasn't even sure what he had to do. Heck, he didn't even know about Potaras or the Z-Sword. What else didn't he know?
Beerus is shown to destroy planets on a whim, not to keep any balance.
Life does that a long, long time to evolve though.
The universe has a low rating for a reason.

Yeah, the current material makes it inexcusable though because we see the Kaioshin from other universe have interaction with one another. If he didnt understand the job why not ask...

I understand at the time Super wasnt even a thought but as far as continuity goes.