Super Saiyan Blue can be seen as Super Saiyan 4

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Super Saiyan Blue can be seen as Super Saiyan 4

Post by ChiefWamsutta » Sun Mar 26, 2017 1:42 pm

I posted this in another thread and wanted to hear thoughts on this. I believe we need to stop focusing on the phrase "A Saiyan with the power of SSGod as a Super Saiyan." We need to stop seeing SSBlue as Super Saiyan 1 + God Ki.

***ORIGINALLY IN THE ROF MOVIE ERA*** SSBlue was treated as Super Saiyan 1 with God Ki; however, more recently it has been treated like a Super Saiyan 4 instead (BASE/SS1/SS2/SS3/SSB).

Think about it ... it is very odd that we have never seen Super Saiyan Blue 2 or Super Saiyan Blue 3. If Goku could easily channel god ki into his Super Saiyan 1 form, then why couldn't he do it with SS2 and SS3? Instead of using a life-risking attack like Kaioken x10, why didn't he channel god ki into his Super Saiyan 3 form? That is an 8x boost and much safer than almost dying fighting Hit. If Goku and Vegeta were in such a bind against Goku Black, why not just transform into Super Saiyan Blue 2? That would give them the edge when they needed it. Goku would have two more transformations in his bag of tricks to use, but Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3 with god ki is never discussed. Additionally, this "Saiyan Beyond God" can't exist for the sole reason that Base + God Ki was never mentioned in the show.

If Goku can use: SS1 + God Ki, then why doesn't he use Base + God Ki, SS2 + God Ki, or SS3 + God Ki? And, no, there is no place where Goku uses Base + God Ki in the show, as no Z Fighter comments on something like that. I have checked DBSuper with reputable subtitles many times for a Base + God Ki. It just is not there, and, sadly, this forces us into a bind.

We can alleviate this issue by looking at Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue differently. We need to treat them as Super Saiyan 3.5 and Super Saiyan 4. We have the usual Base, SS1, SS2, and SS3. SSGod was a hurdle form used to access SSBlue, which is why I say it's SS3.5. SSBlue can be seen as the new DBGT SS4, in a sense, as that is what they use as their strongest transformation and not a hypothetical SSB2/SSB3.

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Re: Super Saiyan Blue can be seen as Super Saiyan 4

Post by Asura » Sun Mar 26, 2017 9:33 pm

I think you have it backwards. It's not a Super Saiyan that has god Ki, but rather a Super Saiyan God (with god ki) that has gone Super Saiyan.


Instead of thinking of it as one continuous transformation line, think of it as two separate transformation lines. So we have

SSJ -> SSJ2 -> SSJ3

SSG -> SSB

The "god" forms are in a tier of their own, at least that's the way I viewed it. If there was an SSJ2 god form or an SSJ3 god form, I don't think it'd be as simple as applying god ki to a regular SSJ2/3 form. You'd have to find a way to unlock it all over again. This'll sound like a really dumb and lame example, but I think of it kinda like prestige ranks from Call of Duty. You reach the "max level" (SSJ3) and then you start all over again when it comes to the god forms.

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Re: Super Saiyan Blue can be seen as Super Saiyan 4

Post by ChiefWamsutta » Sun Mar 26, 2017 11:41 pm

Asura wrote:I think you have it backwards. It's not a Super Saiyan that has god Ki, but rather a Super Saiyan God (with god ki) that has gone Super Saiyan.


Instead of thinking of it as one continuous transformation line, think of it as two separate transformation lines. So we have

SSJ -> SSJ2 -> SSJ3

SSG -> SSB

The "god" forms are in a tier of their own, at least that's the way I viewed it. If there was an SSJ2 god form or an SSJ3 god form, I don't think it'd be as simple as applying god ki to a regular SSJ2/3 form. You'd have to find a way to unlock it all over again. This'll sound like a really dumb and lame example, but I think of it kinda like prestige ranks from Call of Duty. You reach the "max level" (SSJ3) and then you start all over again when it comes to the god forms.
I've spoken to a few people here who are insistent that SSBlue is Super Saiyan that has god ki. I believe that they get hung up on the phrase "A Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God as a Super Saiyan." They think that Saiyan Beyond God, Super Saiyan Beyond God, Super Saiyan Blue, Super Saiyan Blue 2, and Super Saiyan Blue 3, would all be linked. I may not have made it clear, but I don't believe that.

They are separate tiers in a way, yeah.

Base -> SS1 -> SS2 -> SS3
| |
SSG --> SSB

Goku achieved Super Saiyan Blue through accessing Super Saiyan God. Vegeta achieved Super Saiyan Blue through controlling the ki in his Super Saiyan 1 form. I think this is the graphical way of interpreting the forms, but I do see SSBlue as a SS4. As in, it is the most powerful Super Saiyan form. It is a new physical form separate from other forms versus just being an upgraded SS1 + God Ki.

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Re: Super Saiyan Blue can be seen as Super Saiyan 4

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:19 am

Super Saiyan Blue is " A Super Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God". Make of that what you will.
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Re: Super Saiyan Blue can be seen as Super Saiyan 4

Post by sintzu » Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:24 am

Jinzoningen MULE wrote:Super Saiyan Blue is " A Super Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God". Make of that what you will.
Isn't that what Goku turned into in BOG ? with Yellow hair.

It would've been so much easier to just call it SsjG2.
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Re: Super Saiyan Blue can be seen as Super Saiyan 4

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:31 am

sintzu wrote:Isn't that what Goku turned into in BOG ? with Yellow hair.
In the arc, sort of? In the movie, Goku simply rose to new heights by experiencing divine power.
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Re: Super Saiyan Blue can be seen as Super Saiyan 4

Post by Alee9977 » Mon Mar 27, 2017 5:59 pm

sintzu wrote:
Jinzoningen MULE wrote:Super Saiyan Blue is " A Super Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God". Make of that what you will.
Isn't that what Goku turned into in BOG ? with Yellow hair.

It would've been so much easier to just call it SsjG2.
It would be much easier if our actual Super Saiyan God was Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue was Super Saiyan God.

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Re: Super Saiyan Blue can be seen as Super Saiyan 4

Post by sintzu » Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:40 pm

Alee9977 wrote:It would be much easier if our actual Super Saiyan God was Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue was Super Saiyan God.
Anything would be better than what we got.

What will they call the new one ? super saiyan super saiyan god super saiyan ?
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Re: Super Saiyan Blue can be seen as Super Saiyan 4

Post by buutenks » Mon Mar 27, 2017 10:34 pm

Ssj blue, is ssj1 with god ki. Plus ssj2 blue for Vegeta would be indistinguishable. Since ssj blue has lightning in its aura. And since it wasn't shown, ssj2 and 3 with god ki is currently impossible. Plus I'd find it disappointing if they just recolor ssj2 and 3.

On top of that, ssj blue isn't even a new form. Its just ssj with god ki, which is why its blue and not yellow.

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Re: Super Saiyan Blue can be seen as Super Saiyan 4

Post by gofishus » Mon Mar 27, 2017 10:41 pm

I think what makes it confusing is that Goku can switch between regular SSJ and SSJ Blue at will, meaning he can somehow shift his ki from God ki to non-God ki? cause if thats what SSJ Blue is its SSJ with God Ki so.. I guess Goku has control over what kind of ki he can have...

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Re: Super Saiyan Blue can be seen as Super Saiyan 4

Post by ChiefWamsutta » Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:27 am

buutenks wrote:Ssj blue, is ssj1 with god ki. Plus ssj2 blue for Vegeta would be indistinguishable. Since ssj blue has lightning in its aura. And since it wasn't shown, ssj2 and 3 with god ki is currently impossible. Plus I'd find it disappointing if they just recolor ssj2 and 3.

On top of that, ssj blue isn't even a new form. Its just ssj with god ki, which is why its blue and not yellow.
gofishus wrote:I think what makes it confusing is that Goku can switch between regular SSJ and SSJ Blue at will, meaning he can somehow shift his ki from God ki to non-God ki? cause if thats what SSJ Blue is its SSJ with God Ki so.. I guess Goku has control over what kind of ki he can have...
I don't think god ki is anything special. I believe it is just a level of ki control.

Image

As seen in this image, the only thing that should be needed to access SS2, SS3, and SSBlue is unlocking SS1. My point with this thread is that god ki shouldn't be seen as a different type of energy (like thermal energy versus chemical energy). It should just be a level of ki control. King Kai, Supreme Kai, Elder Kai, Dende, Beerus, and Whis all have god ki. During Goku and Vegeta's training with Whis they unlock a god ki form by practicing ki control. Through enough training their ki, they unlocked an entirely new saiyan transformation. SSBlue is a saiyan transformation that has very high ki control to the point it becomes god ki. If Goku and Vegeta could instill god ki into their Base, SS2, and SS3 forms they would have done so already. SSBlue is a form that is unlockable, not the Super Saiyan 1 form with a dose of god ki.

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Re: Super Saiyan Blue can be seen as Super Saiyan 4

Post by Gig » Tue Mar 28, 2017 4:02 am

Also I find SSB2 & SSB3 unlikely, due to SSJ2 and SSJ3 (especially the latter) being more "unstable" forms, while Blue requires perfect ki control...
However this is fiction and they can do whatever they want... they are not new to "retcons"... :wink:

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Re: Super Saiyan Blue can be seen as Super Saiyan 4

Post by Arg » Tue Mar 28, 2017 9:14 am

ChiefWamsutta wrote:
buutenks wrote:Ssj blue, is ssj1 with god ki. Plus ssj2 blue for Vegeta would be indistinguishable. Since ssj blue has lightning in its aura. And since it wasn't shown, ssj2 and 3 with god ki is currently impossible. Plus I'd find it disappointing if they just recolor ssj2 and 3.

On top of that, ssj blue isn't even a new form. Its just ssj with god ki, which is why its blue and not yellow.
gofishus wrote:I think what makes it confusing is that Goku can switch between regular SSJ and SSJ Blue at will, meaning he can somehow shift his ki from God ki to non-God ki? cause if thats what SSJ Blue is its SSJ with God Ki so.. I guess Goku has control over what kind of ki he can have...
I don't think god ki is anything special. I believe it is just a level of ki control.

Image

As seen in this image, the only thing that should be needed to access SS2, SS3, and SSBlue is unlocking SS1. My point with this thread is that god ki shouldn't be seen as a different type of energy (like thermal energy versus chemical energy). It should just be a level of ki control. King Kai, Supreme Kai, Elder Kai, Dende, Beerus, and Whis all have god ki. During Goku and Vegeta's training with Whis they unlock a god ki form by practicing ki control. Through enough training their ki, they unlocked an entirely new saiyan transformation. SSBlue is a saiyan transformation that has very high ki control to the point it becomes god ki. If Goku and Vegeta could instill god ki into their Base, SS2, and SS3 forms they would have done so already. SSBlue is a form that is unlockable, not the Super Saiyan 1 form with a dose of god ki.
SS God is a form too.

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Re: Super Saiyan Blue can be seen as Super Saiyan 4

Post by ChiefWamsutta » Wed Mar 29, 2017 2:25 am

Arg wrote:
ChiefWamsutta wrote:
buutenks wrote:Ssj blue, is ssj1 with god ki. Plus ssj2 blue for Vegeta would be indistinguishable. Since ssj blue has lightning in its aura. And since it wasn't shown, ssj2 and 3 with god ki is currently impossible. Plus I'd find it disappointing if they just recolor ssj2 and 3.

On top of that, ssj blue isn't even a new form. Its just ssj with god ki, which is why its blue and not yellow.
gofishus wrote:I think what makes it confusing is that Goku can switch between regular SSJ and SSJ Blue at will, meaning he can somehow shift his ki from God ki to non-God ki? cause if thats what SSJ Blue is its SSJ with God Ki so.. I guess Goku has control over what kind of ki he can have...
I don't think god ki is anything special. I believe it is just a level of ki control.

Image

As seen in this image, the only thing that should be needed to access SS2, SS3, and SSBlue is unlocking SS1. My point with this thread is that god ki shouldn't be seen as a different type of energy (like thermal energy versus chemical energy). It should just be a level of ki control. King Kai, Supreme Kai, Elder Kai, Dende, Beerus, and Whis all have god ki. During Goku and Vegeta's training with Whis they unlock a god ki form by practicing ki control. Through enough training their ki, they unlocked an entirely new saiyan transformation. SSBlue is a saiyan transformation that has very high ki control to the point it becomes god ki. If Goku and Vegeta could instill god ki into their Base, SS2, and SS3 forms they would have done so already. SSBlue is a form that is unlockable, not the Super Saiyan 1 form with a dose of god ki.
SS God is a form too.

Image
Yeah, I know SSGod is a form too. :) I was trying to represent what God Ki is in a different sort of way because I don't believe that it really is a different type of energy. It is just a level of control reached.

(Also, did you create an entirely new image, or did you modify mine? If so, how, haha?)

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Re: Super Saiyan Blue can be seen as Super Saiyan 4

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Mar 29, 2017 7:58 am

I prefer to keep the names separated to preserve the history of all of them. But if Dragon Ball GT didn't happen, and since Super Saiyan God in the anime never made a return, perhaps Super Saiyan Blue could be considered the step after SS3, in other words a SS4.

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Re: Super Saiyan Blue can be seen as Super Saiyan 4

Post by Arg » Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:23 am

ChiefWamsutta wrote:
Arg wrote:
ChiefWamsutta wrote:
Yeah, I know SSGod is a form too. :) I was trying to represent what God Ki is in a different sort of way because I don't believe that it really is a different type of energy. It is just a level of control reached.

(Also, did you create an entirely new image, or did you modify mine? If so, how, haha?)
Modified yours, with MS Paint, then reuploaded it on deviantart; I referenced "orig10" as that was the name that came out in the URL.

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Re: Super Saiyan Blue can be seen as Super Saiyan 4

Post by Potara_Vegetto » Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:48 am

ChiefWamsutta wrote:I posted this in another thread and wanted to hear thoughts on this. I believe we need to stop focusing on the phrase "A Saiyan with the power of SSGod as a Super Saiyan." We need to stop seeing SSBlue as Super Saiyan 1 + God Ki.

***ORIGINALLY IN THE ROF MOVIE ERA*** SSBlue was treated as Super Saiyan 1 with God Ki; however, more recently it has been treated like a Super Saiyan 4 instead (BASE/SS1/SS2/SS3/SSB).

Think about it ... it is very odd that we have never seen Super Saiyan Blue 2 or Super Saiyan Blue 3. If Goku could easily channel god ki into his Super Saiyan 1 form, then why couldn't he do it with SS2 and SS3? Instead of using a life-risking attack like Kaioken x10, why didn't he channel god ki into his Super Saiyan 3 form? That is an 8x boost and much safer than almost dying fighting Hit. If Goku and Vegeta were in such a bind against Goku Black, why not just transform into Super Saiyan Blue 2? That would give them the edge when they needed it. Goku would have two more transformations in his bag of tricks to use, but Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3 with god ki is never discussed. Additionally, this "Saiyan Beyond God" can't exist for the sole reason that Base + God Ki was never mentioned in the show.

If Goku can use: SS1 + God Ki, then why doesn't he use Base + God Ki, SS2 + God Ki, or SS3 + God Ki? And, no, there is no place where Goku uses Base + God Ki in the show, as no Z Fighter comments on something like that. I have checked DBSuper with reputable subtitles many times for a Base + God Ki. It just is not there, and, sadly, this forces us into a bind.

We can alleviate this issue by looking at Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue differently. We need to treat them as Super Saiyan 3.5 and Super Saiyan 4. We have the usual Base, SS1, SS2, and SS3. SSGod was a hurdle form used to access SSBlue, which is why I say it's SS3.5. SSBlue can be seen as the new DBGT SS4, in a sense, as that is what they use as their strongest transformation and not a hypothetical SSB2/SSB3.
Mortal ki: SSJ, SSJDSD, SSJDND, SSJFP, SSJ2 and SSJ3
God ki: SSJG and SSJB

All transformations have their variants and evolutions, SSJDSD, SSJDND and SSJFP are variants from the original Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 2 are the evolution of the original Super Saiyan form. When they got de God ki this process happened again, the Super Saiyan God started the evolution process again. Now we have the Blue form, which is the evolution of the God form, when Blue form reaches the limit, Goku and Vegeta will probably get the Blue form 2 training.

Goku and Vegeta can't use the God ki in their base forms. In the manga, Zamasu says "When a god surpasses the Super Saiyan God he becomes pink instead of blue" and Whis says that the divine ki can be only emanate by an god. So, if Goku or Vegeta already could use this god ki in their base forms they will be already gods and they would turn pink, not blue. > Image

Black says that when Vegeta turns into SSJB in front of him for the first time "Wonderful... So this is the way that the warrior race looks like to have the ki of the gods"

With the Crunchyroll subtitles Vegeta and Goku only say "This a Saiyan with the power of the Super Saiyan God transformed into Super Saiyan" SSJG and SSJB aren't part of the normal forms, they are the start and the evolution of the god ki. So there's no possibility of those 2 forms being Super Saiyan 3.5 or Super Saiyan 4.

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Re: Super Saiyan Blue can be seen as Super Saiyan 4

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:23 pm

sintzu wrote:
Alee9977 wrote:It would be much easier if our actual Super Saiyan God was Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue was Super Saiyan God.
Anything would be better than what we got.

What will they call the new one ? super saiyan super saiyan god super saiyan ?
Well technically SSGSS was never said in the series or the movie, it was simply for merchandise and marketing. However they were in need of a name soon and SSGSS is clunky I admit so I understand why they went with SSB but SSB is dumb and stupid more so than SSGSS, at least SSGSS describes what the actual transformation is! It's like calling SS2, Super Saiyan Sparks or SS3, Super Saiyan Long.

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Re: Super Saiyan Blue can be seen as Super Saiyan 4

Post by ChiefWamsutta » Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:25 am

What if this super strong Base Goku wasn't Saiyan Beyond God, but something different?

Goku and Vegeta learned to control their ki through not letting it leak out. This helped them achieve SSBlue. What if the super strong Base form is a Ki-Condensed Base?

The crew can still feel it because it is not god ki, just condensed mortal ki. It would also explain how Vegeta could have a weak and a strong Base even though he only trained. It fixes the Hit vs. Base Goku and Monaka-Beerus vs. Base Goku fights, while keeping Goku's Base below Buu. This could allow for Cabba's Base to actually be very weak, and confirm Vegeta's disappointment in him. It keeps Trunks and Zamasu at strong regions, but nowhere near SSG level. Goku said that Frost never trained and it could be thought that Goku uses Base form against him and Ki-Condensed Base against Frieza RoF. This follows what Toriyama said about Goku and Vegeta focusing on training their Base and Super Saiyan forms.


Base < Super Saiyan 1 < Super Saiyan 2 < Super Saiyan 3 << Super Saiyan God = Ki-Condensed Base < Super Saiyan Blue

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