If you bring back the old cast why are people complaining about powerlevels??

[TheMikado]

I think I've said this before but the problem is that some fans are just now reaching their breaking point with power levels. They've been mentally rectifying the power levels for a while but it's slowly eroded. This has happened for different people at different time. For me I came to terms with it in the Champa arc. I think most people agree it would have made sense with just SSJ. So when these people who have been watching Super and rectified things with "saiyan potential" or other concepts and see Krillin against Blue. Retroactively they realized the power levels have been BS all along. It's just that people are realizing it at different times. Next week a whole new group of people will probably call BS and throw on the towel too. It wasn't a big deal to me, they should have used SSJ, but I'm not going to justify it and act like it makes sense. It's one of the less egregious ones and not worth the fight over but still a mark people are counting.

[Beek King]

There's just no point analyzing their power levels down to numbers, but the relative strength between characters is sketchy indeed.
A while back I came up with a term for this phenomenon, related to power creep: power rubber band. It's happened long before in the story actually - the idea is that as the story moves forward and power levels increase, the weakest players will be given a slight bump if only to be SOMEWHAT competitive, and also brand new characters get competitive power levels regardless how much sense it makes. One good example is Android 19.

[Luso Saiyan]

I don't get why people are making such a big deal out of this. They spoonfeed this stuff to ya.

It's useless to bring logic to this discussion. It contradicts whatever baseless, speculative formulas and theories they made up in their minds.

Because DBZ went through an entire series setting up one established rule, that if you're a lot weaker than someone, you won't do any damage.

How much is "a lot"? And since when is that a rule or something even established?

Okay, so right there you acknowledge that there is in fact a power scale.

I acknowledge the fact that Beerus, as the Hakaishin, has the power to destroy whoever he wants, not matter how well that person fares against him in a martial fight. Fighting is irrelevant.

There's just no point analyzing their power levels down to numbers, but the relative strength between characters is sketchy indeed.

It's unknown. And that's the point. It's meant to be unknown. It's the fans that pretend to know what has never been stated.

[Guesswhoo]

I personally think it would have been (near) impossible making the old cast relevant without making these ENORMOUS power up. Many people talk about strategies and such but strategies don't really work when the guys who you are up against are galaxy buster at least, what are you gonna do to them ? Trick them inside a black hole ? Destroy the planet ? .

[Yomi]

I personally think it would have been (near) impossible making the old cast relevant without making these ENORMOUS power up. Many people talk about strategies and such but strategies don't really work when the guys who you are up against are galaxy buster at least, what are you gonna do to them ? Trick them inside a black hole ? Destroy the planet ? .

You're missing the point, they can't use flying techniques, so all they have to do is knock them a few feet. Not actually kill or defeat them.
It's a tournament with rules, not a 1 on 1 fight to the death. So sure, in some circumstance Krillin might be able to knock someone off the platform, and win
who is way stronger than he is. Even Roshi could guide someone off with the Mafuba.

[Asura]

Okay, so right there you acknowledge that there is in fact a power scale.

I acknowledge the fact that Beerus, as the Hakaishin, has the power to destroy whoever he wants, not matter how well that person fares against him in a martial fight. Fighting is irrelevant.

Right, if anyone tried to fight him, they would lose because he has the power to destroy whoever he wants. Hence, that is the power scale. If someone is so far above you that you can't even damage them, that is the power scale. I dunno why you keep acting dumb pretending it never existed in DBZ and somehow we're all making it up, but there's proof of it everywhere. For example, when Perfect Cell was born and Krillin charged and attacked him and had absolutely zero effect on him? Exactly the same as the Beerus situation. Cell was just so far above and beyond Krillin that none of his attacks even fazed him. That is the power scale.

I mean, it even seems like you're denying that, for better or for worse, DBZ was a series that heavily focused on power levels. I don't really even understand how you can deny something like that without playing dumb as others have suggested, especially when a large chunk of the series literally had the villains saying "My power level is 1000 and yours is 300, you can't win."

[VegettoEX]

I dunno why you keep acting dumb

This is not an appropriate way to have a conversation on Kanzenshuu.

[Asura]

I dunno why you keep acting dumb

This is not an appropriate way to have a conversation on Kanzenshuu.

I'm not sure I see what the issue is.

Saying someone is "acting dumb" or "playing dumb" is not literally calling someone dumb. It means to pretend to not know something. Others have called him out on it in this thread alone using the same type of terminology I did, because his responses are peculiar and keeps asking "why?" or "how?" to basic information. It was not my intention to insult him, I'm just asking why it appears as if he's pretending to have no idea what we're talking about. I apologize if it appeared otherwise, but as I said before, there are at least two instances of other people using this exact line of thought in this thread, and I highly doubt they meant it in a disrespectful or insulting manner either.

[OLKv3]

I don't get why people are making such a big deal out of this. They spoonfeed this stuff to ya.

It's useless to bring logic to this discussion. It contradicts whatever baseless, speculative formulas and theories they made up in their minds.

Because DBZ went through an entire series setting up one established rule, that if you're a lot weaker than someone, you won't do any damage.

How much is "a lot"? And since when is that a rule or something even established?
.

Try the entire series. Your question is being purposely ignorant, if you watched DBZ, and clearly you did, saying "since when was that a rule" is just being dishonest.

[Ssenrof]

Dragon Ball has been consistently careless about power levels ever since the Revival of F.

The movie seems to have set the tone for the entirety of Super- It starts the trend for ridiculous power bonuses.

Many seemed to overlook it as a onetime thing,- Frieza was a genius..... Etc

However, then we got Trunks- who leapfrogs SS3 straight into Blue with Barely any training. Then Black jumps from fighting Super Sayain Goku to stronger than God Goku. In no time.

It should be clear, that in DBS characters can attain God levels of power just by training,- even though in Battle of Gods we were told that it would be impossible for Goku to ever challenge Beerus just by training- that the God ritual was a nescesity, but then Frieza in a few weeks with Normal training ( not gravity or with gods) surpasses Blue Goku.

If, you never saw DBZ- I imagine these power level growths would be "normal". Of course, in Z we saw characters train for years and only gain a few percent of power without taking into consideration transformations,--- so the headscratcher is what has changed between now and then that characters can suddenly gain so much power in "weeks" of training, when in the past years would only barely boost ones power level. Seven years and Vegeta goes from SS1 to SS2, Seven years of nonstop training in super gravity- so how the fuck are characters suddenly gaining greater power boosts in weeks/months.

Personally, my Problem with the whole " you can defeat certain opponents with skill as opposed to power" is that it isn't true at all.

It's a bullshit, superficial argument. Sure, if you are close in power- then brains will determine the winner. The more haxed the user, the greater the power discrepancy can be. A very haxed power like Buu's candy beam can defeat strong opponents, but if there is a massive power difference ( like Vegeto) it won't do shit.

The problem, is that the difference in strength in DBS isn't minor- it's so massive, that most fans can't even understand just how much stronger the Sayains have become. Furthermore, Dbz has made it a point that if the gap is sufficient enough, haxed techniques won't even work.

For example, Goku with a x10 boost in power, can ignore time stop.

DBZ has on multiple occasions shown how large differences in power cannot be overcome. People are complaining because DBS is contradicting DBZ.

Frieza's energy beams at 1% power are too fast for
krillin to perceive. He can't even see them move. A large difference in power level, Means a large difference in speed- after a point- the speed is so vast that one character cannot perceive another. ( it only requires 2-3x power level based off of Goku blitzing opponents that he can't otherwise using Kioken).

Gohan vs Krillin was a shit fight. Gohan just had a fight where he was blinded and he did just fine- so how did krillin surprise him? Vegeta kicked Cell with all his streanght and he didn't even flinch- the power difference between gohan and Krillin is >>> than the difference between cell and Vegeta. Krillin would break his hand before Gohan moves.

The Goku vs Krillin fight was even more bullshit- the whole point of the fight is supposedly that skill can overcome power- but that's obviously bullshit because we all know that if Goku wasn't holding back Krillin would have been knocked out before a single neuron fires off in his brain. Krillin would need a obscenely hax technique like time-stop, mind control, or Buu's Regen in order to justify his inclusion on the team.

The whole message of the fight is contradicted by the fact Goku held back 99% of his power. Any character that could force Goku to use even 25% of his total power is Capable of defeating Krillin, Tien, the androids, Buu, and master roshi with a single attack.

Sure, skill beats power but only if your opponent holds back 99.99999% of his power. Thats all I learned from Krillin V Goku.

Weaker characters have been useless ever since the beginning of DBZ, but suddenly, ( ever since Goku was hurt by lol a laser) weaker characters can not only cause stronger ones to flinch, but actually hurt them. That contradicts Cell V Vegeta, Trunks V Frieza, Vegeto V Buu, Gohan V Super Buu, Everyone V Beerus, and Hit V Kiokenx10 Goku.


In series like Naruto, or Hunter X Hunter skill and special abilities overcome pure power all the time.

Howver, DBZ has never been like that. And, if when it does try if the best we get is The nonsense that is Krillin V Gohan, and Goku V Krillin. Then I'd rather not include it at all.

If old characters are given relevance in ways that make sense, that would be great- however if they only become relevant because their opponents are holding back or hugging an idiot ball- then I'd rather they don't come
Back at all.

1) Gohan getting surprised by an attack that he has seen countless times, and immediately after fighting blind against an opponent -is shit. Gohan defeated an opponent blind, poisend, and invisible Ki-- but he still gets surprised by Krillin blinding him???

2) Goku holding back his power somehow means Krillin can compete in a tournament for the survival of the multiverse. NonsenseZ

If Krillin really can compete with stronger opponents/ then Gohan/Goku wouldn't need to hold back. The fact they they are Barely trying contradicts the message that justifies the use of Krillin/Tien/Master Roshi.

If Krillin is a future example for the logic that is going
To be used to make others relevant- I would rather he not be used.

[Luso Saiyan]

Right, if anyone tried to fight him, they would lose because he has the power to destroy whoever he wants.

No, read again.

Hence, that is the power scale.

No. Scale implies knowing values (and the range between them). We don't know that because whatever values exist can change.

If someone is so far above you that you can't even damage them, that is the power scale.

Again, how much is "so far"? Like I keep saying, that's vague and subjective terminology. Just because a character is more powerful than another at a certain time doesn't mean you know how much difference there is, nor does it mean that difference (whatever it is) can't change.

I dunno why you keep acting dumb pretending it never existed in DBZ and somehow we're all making it up, but there's proof of it everywhere.

How exactly am I acting dumb? You continue to claim there is proof and yet nobody was able to post any. Instead, you come up with strawmen that nobody is arguing and address those instead.

I mean, it even seems like you're denying that, for better or for worse, DBZ was a series that heavily focused on power levels.

No, it's not. It was for a time, until it was decided that power levels are not something measurable and definite. Power can change, limits can be surpassed. That's what DB focuses on. Not power levels. It constantly disregarded those. But sadly some people can't accept that fact because they wasted so much time with made up formulas and ladders that aren't and never were set in stone (on purpose). And in turn, discussing the series ceased to be about what actually happens but about how they just contradicted whatever fan fiction some people decided to make up in their minds.

[TheMikado]

Right, if anyone tried to fight him, they would lose because he has the power to destroy whoever he wants.

No, read again.

Hence, that is the power scale.

No. Scale implies knowing values (and the range between them). We don't know that because whatever values exist can change.

If someone is so far above you that you can't even damage them, that is the power scale.

Again, how much is "so far"? Like I keep saying, that's vague and subjective terminology. Just because a character is more powerful than another at a certain time doesn't mean you know how much difference there is, nor does it mean that difference (whatever it is) can't change.

I dunno why you keep acting dumb pretending it never existed in DBZ and somehow we're all making it up, but there's proof of it everywhere.

How exactly am I acting dumb? You continue to claim there is proof and yet nobody was able to post any. Instead, you come up with strawmen that nobody is arguing and address those instead.

I mean, it even seems like you're denying that, for better or for worse, DBZ was a series that heavily focused on power levels.

No, it's not. It was for a time, until it was decided that power levels are not something measurable and definite. Power can change, limits can be surpassed. That's what DB focuses on. Not power levels. It constantly disregarded those. But sadly some people can't accept that fact because they wasted so much time with made up formulas and ladders that aren't and never were set in stone (on purpose). And in turn, discussing the series ceased to be about what actually happens but about how they just contradicted whatever fan fiction some people decided to make up in their minds.

Hello sir, just want to let you know you are absolutely indisputably wrong. Relative power, at least in the "Z" era was so integral to the story line that Toriyama developed three different methods and scales for measurement of said battle power. Your assessment is totally opposite of what the creator has said on why he developed them in the first place on an interview. You may feel free to disagree with Toriyama if you like, but one of you is wrong or in denial.

Anyway the Saiyan/Frieza arc used the scanners, Gero developed his own method for scaling battle levels, and babidi had his kili meter. "Power" and its synonyms are literally some of the most used words in all of Dragonball Z. Someone did a word count online somewhere and the it was utterly ridiculous the number of times it was used. Look, to can keep arguing if you want but the "Z" portions primary theme is POWER like it or not. If you have another theme that is the primary literary theme of this work I'd love to hear it.

[buutenks]

I don't understand why they simply didn't have the fighters train with Whis. If that had happened, all complaints would have disappeared.

[Luso Saiyan]

Hello sir, just want to let you know you are absolutely indisputably wrong.

A pity that there's nothing to corroborate that claim.

Relative power, at least in the "Z" era was so integral to the story line that Toriyama developed three different methods and scales for measurement of said battle power. Your assessment is totally opposite of what the creator has said on why he developed them in the first place on an interview. You may feel free to disagree with Toriyama if you like, but one of you is wrong or in denial.

Disagree with Toriyama?| My argument is based on what Toriyama stated and did.

Anyway the Saiyan/Frieza arc used the scanners, Gero developed his own method for scaling battle levels, and babidi had his kili meter. "Power" and its synonyms are literally some of the most used words in all of Dragonball Z. Someone did a word count online somewhere and the it was utterly ridiculous the number of times it was used. Look, to can keep arguing if you want but the "Z" portions primary theme is POWER like it or not. If you have another theme that is the primary literary theme of this work I'd love to hear it.

[Asura]

How exactly am I acting dumb? You continue to claim there is proof and yet nobody was able to post any. Instead, you come up with strawmen that nobody is arguing and address those instead.

The problem is, multiple people have given you a wide variety of proof as to why you're wrong, including Toriyama's own words on the matter, and all you can say in response is either "You're wrong" (without providing any proof or counter-argument of your own) or "strawman", to which it seems like you don't even know what that word means, yet you keep using it.

Tell me, how on earth was TheMikado's mention of the various power level systems throughout the entire series (from Saiyan to Buu) a strawman argument? You are literally arguing "Dragonball didn't always focus on power levels" while he gives you proof of just how focused on power the entirety of the series was, with the different measurements of power levels proceeding through almost every arc. That's not a strawman at all. He's addressing your point directly.

[TekTheNinja]

I personally think it would have been (near) impossible making the old cast relevant without making these ENORMOUS power up. Many people talk about strategies and such but strategies don't really work when the guys who you are up against are galaxy buster at least, what are you gonna do to them ? Trick them inside a black hole ? Destroy the planet ? .

And I think these characters DESERVE these big power ups but there's still a problem with it. They could easily make these power ups make just a LITTLE bit of sense but instead they're just like, "They're just ridiculously strong now for no reason, lel"

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

For many folks around here, and I mean MANY MANY folks around here, they often miss the dialogue tidbits, implied intent, and contextual clues that renders all the stupid arguments irrelevant.

For the others that have legitimate complaints, it comes down to a few different things.

The lack of wiggle-room of these so-called "pre-established rules" that people will give is astronomically difficult to deal with by people like myself. The problem is that ever since Toriyama took the reigns of the franchise once again, he's been changing the rules drastically in stark contrast to his previous work, designing setups that shook the series' core ideas on concepts like "power" and "tactics".

Whilst Toei have been busy making a spectacle out of his outlines in the anime, Toyotaro's been trying to keep things consistent in his manga. Both have the right idea, but both suffer from not taking enough notes from each other. Toei has had an issue trying to maintain internal consistency with the rules established, whilst Toyotaro has been struggling with giving the characters and story actual weight and feeling.

The issue is that the powerscalers aren't willing to give the wiggle room that's necessary to enjoy the latest arc's intent. By sticking to the old rules so religiously, they've effectively dug themselves into a trench, so to speak, unwilling to venture out.

Often times, the complaints that people have ARE explained in the series itself, it's just that these people don't think these answers are good enough. And when they don't think it's good enough, you got discussion threads like this.

===

Basically, it's a case of a tug-of-war between "the series explained it and this is extremely enjoyable, what's the big deal?" and "that's not good enough, there has to be more!"

[TekTheNinja]

Actually if the characters AREN'T as strong as they seem though, that's a problem too. I know people have been like, "But muh strategy!" but power is important in Dragon Ball and if we have these characters who aren't even an eighth of Goku's power how exactly are they supposed to be AT ALL useful? Because I've been thinkin' 'bout My Hero Academia a lot recently, here's a relevant quote: [spoiler][/spoiler]