If you bring back the old cast why are people complaining about powerlevels??

[Lujin_16]

it is obviously that some will be confused with powerlevel's if yo bring back the old cast so i know that since the 10 fighters were confirmed that it will be
a little bit complicated and some are complainig now??? But the tournament is not all about powerlevel so i like the idea that they change the direction so i
don't care that much about powerlevel's anymore...

Look at Ruffy vs Lysop in One Piece and you will forget about C-17 vs SSB and we don't even know how much C-17 trained i mean in the preview it seems like
he is much stronger and acts like a fighter so calm down and wait until the episode comes out...Of course SSB is stronger but Goku is not stupid and wants
to kill someone he likes to play with them and will show his true power in the tournament

[VegettoEX]

Your post is a little difficult to parse, but I think I know what you're getting at.

Different people like different things. I'm fairly certain that everyone on all sides understands this on at least a base level.

The "problem" is that some folks believe that by adding in one thing, it's somehow taking away from the other. While I'm on the "other" "side" of the "argument" here, quite frankly, it really does seem like the power level / strength aficionados are the ones losing their minds over the expanding/returning cast: by reintroducing these antiquated characters, it takes away from the consistency and logic of what they enjoy, which is... ever-increasing, linear/exponential strength (???).

Certain people have made up their minds about what the show "should" be, and when reality conflicts with that, it's ripe for debate and exaggerated hysteria. That's not healthy, either for the individual doing it, or for the community that has to deal with it.

I think there are great ways to have those larger discussions. I also think there are appropriate times to have those discussions; before the tournament even starts is not what I'd call an appropriate time. There's still a lot of setup going on, all of which could be thrown out the window if the writers so desire. I honestly think it's best to take a wait-and-see approach, and analyze this stuff on a larger scale than individual episodes, and especially on a larger scale than individual scenes or even lines of dialog.

It's fine to have these bigger discussions over, say, Battle of Gods in a vacuum. The Universe Survival arc of Super? Eh. Not really seeing what there is to accomplish just yet by making definitive statements, a definitive analysis, and a write-off based on what you WANT rather than what actually pans out in reality. It MAY NOT BE that power scaling is ultimately thrown out in favor of new cast. I'd wager it probably WILL be the case, but right now? Who knows?

[MisteryOne]

Easy, because its more than possible for the old cast to return and defeat opponents using TACTICS without them being SSB level because «lulz I dunno, I trained», which makes BoG so pointless it hurts. I dont understand why people think that what they are doing with the power inconsistences is the «prize that it has to be paid for the old cast to be relevant again». I am more than sure that when Toriyama or whoever decided the rules of the tournament, he/she wasn't thinking about making the old cast stupidly OP, but them using something that is not power to fight.

[dragonballgeek]

I have no problem with the cast returning. I think it's awesome! They just need to be more consistent with power scaling.

If tactics worked on unbelievably powerful opponents, then the Z fighters would've found a way to overcome the obstacle of Beerus being 53875875387 times stronger than them. What they're doing isn't consistent with Z or even Super for that matter. And I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting consistency in a series. Strength wise, the characters they're having come back are wayyyyy back there on the power scale. Like krillin. Krillin stopped fighting after the cell games ended. He's been inactive for years and now is all of a sudden physically in great shape after training for a little while?


The problem isn't that we don't want the old characters back. The problem is how they're going about it.

[Kokonoe]

So the thing is, Super is actually pretty dang awful with power scaling. I'm not saying Z wasn't without it's flaws, but it was far more consistent that it's practically night and day. The problem with this is that it's constantly undermining the struggles and story build up to obtain said power when people get it for no really good reason or struggle, and also hurts previous fights in the series if you can think "oh, well if Goku wasn't the only one strong enough why is it portrayed like this?". It also even undermines Super's own story.

With that said, at the very least, it is giving us more characters a chance to shine in the spotlight. The writing in terms of power scaling is definitely abysmal IMO, but if it means we get to see more characters in action again, I'll honestly take it tbh. Least it'll make for an interesting show.

[DBZ Macky]

The problem is that the "Dragon Team" wasn't (apparently) able to anything against Piccolo for god's sake! And the Powar levul "Gap" between them wasn't even in the double digits, going by official numbers.

Surprise attack or not, there was no way in hell they would be able to win without Goku. Even the "gap" between Raditz and Goku was at most ~5x and the Earthlings would basically be fucked if Piccolo didn't pull out the Makankosappo.

I can buy Krillin being around Base Goku from the Androids arc. He does have a lot of potential and did train for 3 years. But after not training for 7 years he can't suddenly be even a good sparring partner for Post BoG Base Goku.

[Ki Breaker]

Gimme a good valid reason why they are suddenly so strong and I am good to go

[Luso Saiyan]

I have no problem with the cast returning. I think it's awesome! They just need to be more consistent with power scaling.

What scale is that? The one that's only been established in some fans' heads?

If tactics worked on unbelievably powerful opponents, then the Z fighters would've found a way to overcome the obstacle of Beerus being 53875875387 times stronger than them.

Why? Who said it's about "tactics" with Beerus? It has nothing to do with Beerus.

What they're doing isn't consistent with Z or even Super for that matter.

What's not consistent?

Gimme a good valid reason why they are suddenly so strong and I am good to go

They've always been strong. There's nothing "sudden" about it. They were simply deemed strong enough to enter the Tournament.

[Ki Breaker]

They've always been strong. There's nothing "sudden" about it. They were simply deemed strong enough to enter the Tournament.

How strong are they though? It seems they all had sudden high jumps which went unaccounted for..

[namekiansaiyan]

Bringing them back into the fighting scene is the number 1 thing I wanted so I am not complaining.

What I will complain about if Toriyama only selects a few to get actual power ups. I think all should get power ups to be around the same strength so it is then all about skill.

They've always been strong. There's nothing "sudden" about it. They were simply deemed strong enough to enter the Tournament.

How strong are they though? It seems they all had sudden high jumps which went unaccounted for..

Training off screen is the reason. I feel Toriyama realises that he should not have left the old cast behind.

[TheMikado]

I have no problem with the cast returning. I think it's awesome! They just need to be more consistent with power scaling.

If tactics worked on unbelievably powerful opponents, then the Z fighters would've found a way to overcome the obstacle of Beerus being 53875875387 times stronger than them. What they're doing isn't consistent with Z or even Super for that matter. And I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting consistency in a series. Strength wise, the characters they're having come back are wayyyyy back there on the power scale. Like krillin. Krillin stopped fighting after the cell games ended. He's been inactive for years and now is all of a sudden physically in great shape after training for a little while?


The problem isn't that we don't want the old characters back. The problem is how they're going about it.

This guy basically hit the nail on the head. We have been hammered for decades about how once the power gap is significant enough there's literally nothing you can do short of blowing yourself up (And half the time that didn't even work!!!!) But that's how TORIYAMA wrote his manga. But now we have a new product several years later, with no clue as to what actually came from the author and using a method to greatly differs both from RoF and BoG.

I want eveyone to see this: TORIYAMA has been consistent even in recent media which we KNOW he's written that POWER trumps tactics. We have no word on what Toriyama thinks of this arc, how much he's contributed etc. In fact, it seems like its written like a video game where all characters are relevant. Using One Piece is a bad example, raw strength does not overcome skill and One Piece has much better balancing. Even Pokemon does.

Anyway, changing the rules even just from BoG and RoF is what makes this weird. It's like the switched gears literally in the middle of the series for no apparent reason whatsoever.
We went from Krillin powering up and base Goku hitting him once which sent him flying several miles to some kind of sparring match with Goku. If you have been watching and paying attention it leaves you scratching your head.

[Luso Saiyan]

How strong are they though? It seems they all had sudden high jumps which went unaccounted for..

So you don't know how strong they are? But you were just saying that they were "so strong". What gives? And what "high jumps"? How did you measure those?

[TheMikado]

How strong are they though? It seems they all had sudden high jumps which went unaccounted for..

So you don't know how strong they are? But you were just saying that they were "so strong". What gives? And what "high jumps"? How did you measure those?

We have no idea, we have people ranging Krillin as anywhere from Captain Ginyu to SPC/Dabura based on feats. That's a hell of a range, that's like a factor of about 1500x...

[Ki Breaker]

How strong are they though? It seems they all had sudden high jumps which went unaccounted for..

So you don't know how strong they are? But you were just saying that they were "so strong". What gives? And what "high jumps"? How did you measure those?

We have no idea, we have people ranging Krillin as anywhere from Captain Ginyu to SPC/Dabura based on feats. That's a hell of a range, that's like a factor of about 1500x...

Yup this, we are having no good range to measure them..
People are basically putting them in any range they want to..

[TheMikado]

So you don't know how strong they are? But you were just saying that they were "so strong". What gives? And what "high jumps"? How did you measure those?

We have no idea, we have people ranging Krillin as anywhere from Captain Ginyu to SPC/Dabura based on feats. That's a hell of a range, that's like a factor of about 1500x...

Yup this, we are having no good range to measure them..
People are basically putting them in any range they want to..

Exactly, when we get to the tournament and Buu is fighting some guy, having trouble, and then swaps out for Krillin who takes him out, five different groups are going to come rampaging in.

"Krillin should be Captain Ginyu level at most! This is ridiculous."
"Krillin should be SSJ1 level, this is dumb"
"Krillin should be SSJ2 level, this is ok."
"Krillin pushed back SSB Goku, while Goku only went base against Buu, Krillin was obviously stronger."
"Tactics, Holding back, tired opponent, etc. Power levels suck!"

And this is why story consistency, so the audience can all be on the same page about details that should be so minor are important.

[Luso Saiyan]

We have no idea, we have people ranging Krillin as anywhere from Captain Ginyu to SPC/Dabura based on feats. That's a hell of a range, that's like a factor of about 1500x...

Yup this, we are having no good range to measure them..
People are basically putting them in any range they want to..

You are all proving my point.

There's no power measure. No established scale. No inconsistency. Only fan assumption and speculation that those making Super are not (nor should be) bound to.

[Ki Breaker]

We have no idea, we have people ranging Krillin as anywhere from Captain Ginyu to SPC/Dabura based on feats. That's a hell of a range, that's like a factor of about 1500x...

Yup this, we are having no good range to measure them..
People are basically putting them in any range they want to..

You are all proving my point.

There's no power measure. No established scale. No inconsistency. Only fan assumption and speculation that those making Super are not (nor should be) bound to.

So is it really fine to put Krillin as Beerus level as well?
There should be and is scale, just that it's been so badly played with it's range has expanded bounds it shouldn't have..
My statement about explaining these unnamed Powerups points to it..

Fan speculation originates from what the show tells us, if the show explains their increase in strength by some means there is no need fot fan speculation

And this is why story consistency, so the audience can all be on the same page about details that should be so minor are important.

That Basically it..
These details matter, over time they add up leading to the mess we have right now

[Krillin1994]

I'd be happy if we just had something stated like people from Earth have great hidden potential and old kai unlocked that provided they train hard.

I mean Earth is a great place, Kibito kai at the end of BoG praised Goku for Earth surviving but old Kai said it was because of Earth itself or something to that effect.

So if Earth is the reason why Beerus destroyed less, the people from it have a great potential imo.

[Luso Saiyan]

So is it really fine to put Krillin as Beerus level as well?

Is it? I never said it was, nor did they do that.

There should be and is scale, just that it's been so badly played with it's range has expanded bounds it shouldn't have..

There's no established scale. We do know who is stronger than who, but we don't know how much stronger nor each character's potential. That was never established. Fan assumptions are only that: assumptions. Not facts.

Fan speculation originates from what the show tells us,

No, speculation exists because fans don't know everything but like to pretend they do and judge something based on what they don't know.

[Ki Breaker]

So is it really fine to put Krillin as Beerus level as well?

Is it? I never said it was, nor did they do that.

There should be and is scale, just that it's been so badly played with it's range has expanded bounds it shouldn't have..

There's no established scale. We do know who is stronger than who, but we don't know how much stronger nor each character's potential. That was never established. Fan assumptions are only that: assumptions. Not facts.

Fan speculation originates from what the show tells us,

No, speculation exists because fans don't know everything but like to pretend they do and judge something based on what they don't know.

Just knowing who is stronger than whom is also a part of scale.. we don't know that right now either..
There are people arguing about only Krillin in these many ways

"Krillin should be Captain Ginyu level at most! This is ridiculous."
"Krillin should be SSJ1 level, this is dumb"
"Krillin should be SSJ2 level, this is ok."
"Krillin pushed back SSB Goku, while Goku only went base against Buu, Krillin was obviously stronger."
"Tactics, Holding back, tired opponent, etc. Power levels suck!"

It is necessary to maintain a certain level of consistency, other wise it gets out of hand