Is it really hard to believe that Future Zamasu can go toe to toe with SSJ Blue?

[Lord Beerus]

It's not hard to believe that Future Zamasu can't go toe to to with SSJB. He was already put on pedestal as a prodigy among Kaioshin and a fighting genius who Kaioshin had greater skills and abilities than any of the Supreme Kais from each universe and even Goku thought could possibly become as strong as Beerus for crying out loud. The guy had a lot of hype behind him and obviously had major amount of power or talent still to display, and at some point during 17 years of prep time, he tapped into it.

It's not that far-fetched.

[pacz360]

It's not hard to believe that Future Zamasu can't go toe to to with SSJB. He was already put on pedestal as a prodigy among Kaioshin and a fighting genius who Kaioshin had greater skills and abilities than any of the Supreme Kais from each universe and even Goku thought could possibly become as strong as Beerus for crying out loud. The guy had a lot of hype behind him and obviously had major amount of power or talent still to display, and at some point during 17 years of prep time, he tapped into it.

It's not that far-fetched.

Shhhhhh theres no way someone could get to a least low ssjb level despite a guy frieza getting there in four months and trunks in two days. Nope straight up impossible especially where he's a prodigy and had 17 years to get that strong.

[Bullza]

Krillin is a poor example so don't so don't even try that shit f.zam was able to trade blows with ssjb goku And goku straight up said theres something different while flashbacking when he fought p.zam as a ssj2
And android 17 says hi
Golden frieza says hi.
Don't even try for it odoesn't make sense bs your trying to pull here
It doesnt make sense that some dude made three androids that can shit on the ssj's and frieza without knowing what the form was or who frieza is...yet it happened.
And the only times he was treated like straight up garbage was by an enraged ssjb goku.
Show me more proofs of your bs.

Golden Frieza is the only of the bunch that's Blue Tier. Obviously Android 17 can't be said to be that level because they specifically said Goku held back.

Goku said he was different but never said it had anything to do with his power. Neither version ever said Future Zamasu was stronger. The manga even said that Trunks was stronger than Future Zamasu as well. It makes no sense with the story for Zamasu to be above Base Black.

1. Goku beat him as a SSJ2.

2. Trunks "beat" him as a SSJ2.

3. Goku comically backhanded him away like a chump.

4. SSJR Trunks fought Black on somewhat equal terms whilst one kick sent Zamasu crashing to the ground.

5. SJR Trunks blasted him away immediately before fighting Black and then reverted back to SSJ2 to fight Zamasu.

6. Goku easily beat the tar out of him again after they came back to the future.

I double checked. He hit Goku one time in Episode 57 and Trunks one time in Episode 63 legit, those were the only times he actually hit someone through without assistance. He went the whole saga actually hitting someone twice.

[LowRyder2005]

The anime is awfully inconsistent, like, well, basically every single time power scaling is concerned. The manga, however, makes it clear he's weak sauce compared to the higher Gods. This is at the very least partly reflected in the anime as well, given how SS1/2 Trunks manhandles Zamas and how Goku thinks Trunks may have killed Zamas with a Final Flash. Also, do note that Zamas immediately references his immortality as what enabled him to survive that particular attack, which again sounds pretty strange if he's really that strong compared to Trunks.

All in all, I can't help but think that Zamas suddenly putting on a show with SSB Goku was merely TOEI needing to fill some screentime and that he was always meant to be SS2 tier (just like the present one).
Also, Zamas being God tier would bring forth some more questions which are never exactly explored: exactly how could Zamas suddenly go from being a mid-Buu saga tier to a God tier? Some people talk about those 17 years being a great deal, but 17 years are like less than a day in a Kaioshin's life. I guess training with Goku Black, maybe?

I never got the impression Future Zamasu was very strong in the anime. When I watched I basically had it as:

1) Black
2A) Goku
2B) Vegeta
3) Future Trunks = Future Zamasu

Goku and Vegeta flip flop through the arc so they are basically the same.

I think it's bad to take every scene in the anime too literally. Some of it is just filling screen time as you said...but I feel like if you take the entire body of work in the arc this is plausible.

Yeah, me neither. Agreed with everything you said; in fact, I think we are seeing it eye to eye on the whole thing. Apparently, though, quite a few users here are convinced that Trunks is somewhat of a "wild card", while Zamas specifically was to be intended as someone who had reached the tier of the upper echelon of the gods in those 17 years. I think it's still a fair interpretation on their part.

To me, however, the authorial intent is still - and more or less clearly - to represent Zamas as someone whose feats are a result of his immortality and (that is, putting aside how well executed the whole thing is). Power-wise? He's still supposed to be comparable to a SS2, in my book. Being able to keep up with Goku merely goes in the same list of stuff like Trunks resorting to SS to beat Tien in Bojack's movie, Trunks himself giving Black a hard time, Yamcha beating up Olibu, Goku going "half Super Saiyan" to beat the Ginyu Squad while in Hell (had it happened nowadays, would people argue those guys had trained in the Otherworld and reached Freeza level? Can't help but wonder). Y'know: TOEI doing their own thing and not caring much about being terribly consistent.

[Lord Frieza]

Yeah we must be totally full of #### when we point out that Trunks, the guy who got curb stomped by SS3 Goku, is a Gary Stue and a "Wildcard" when he barley survived fighting base Black yet can somehow tangle with SSR Black and Zamasu, is able to pull a new form right out of his ass, learned a technique that took Goku a day to learn in mere moments and also pull of a Genki Sword right out of his ass.

Yes its totally Zamasu that's the one causing all the inconsistencies.

[GodKaio-Ken]

Yeah we must be totally full of #### when we point out that Trunks, the guy who got curb stomped by SS3 Goku, is a Gary Stun and a "Wildcard" when he barley survived fighting base Black yet can somehow tangle with SSR Black and Zamasu, is able to pull a new form right out of his ass, learned a technique that took Goku a day to learn in mere moments and also pull of a Genki Sword right out of his ass.

Yes its totally Zamasu that's the one causing all the inconsistencies.

Super is full of inconsistency. That is why I try to not take any one battle or scenario too literally but how it fits in to the entire recent body of work. It's not just Zamasu who causes issues, its Trunks as well no doubt.

[Zamasu55]

It's actually sad that people are still saying things like "F. Zamasu was beaten by Ssj2 Trunks" when it was clearly stated that Zamasu always lowers his guard due to his immortality.

[LowRyder2005]

Yeah we must be totally full of #### [...]

*sigh* No one said it.

It's actually sad that people are still saying things like "F. Zamasu was betaten by Ssj2 Trunks" when it was clearly stated that Zamasu always lowers his guard due to his immortality.

The issue has to do with something else entirely. Case in point, even when you add the fact that Zamas may always be fighting carelessly, there's not a univocal conclusion in sight no matter how you want to look at them.

1. if Zamas is hundreds of times stronger than Trunks, shouldn't the former be able to lower his guard like Cell did against Krillin? Then, are we supposed to believe that he's lowering his power level as well? Why would he?
2. Rebuttal: Goku is stated, coincidentially, to be someone with the habit to lower his power when fighting his opponents in that very arc. Should we discount the possibility that he is the one lowering his power vs. Zamas, while Zamas is serious against Trunks? Same question: someone was lowering its power, why would they?

Hence there's clearly a conundrum regardless of your idea of Zamas' standing in power. The same conundrum persists even, or rather "especially", if try to apply an in-universe point-of-view. I mean, I've seen that the main argument is that Zamas is a fighting genius. A fighting genius, and yet a person with a millionth of his power leads Goku to think he could kill him with ki blasts?

[pacz360]

Krillin is a poor example so don't so don't even try that shit f.zam was able to trade blows with ssjb goku And goku straight up said theres something different while flashbacking when he fought p.zam as a ssj2
And android 17 says hi
Golden frieza says hi.
Don't even try for it odoesn't make sense bs your trying to pull here
It doesnt make sense that some dude made three androids that can shit on the ssj's and frieza without knowing what the form was or who frieza is...yet it happened.
And the only times he was treated like straight up garbage was by an enraged ssjb goku.
Show me more proofs of your bs.

Golden Frieza is the only of the bunch that's Blue Tier. Obviously Android 17 can't be said to be that level because they specifically said Goku held back.

Goku said he was different but never said it had anything to do with his power. Neither version ever said Future Zamasu was stronger. The manga even said that Trunks was stronger than Future Zamasu as well. It makes no sense with the story for Zamasu to be above Base Black.

1. Goku beat him as a SSJ2.

2. Trunks "beat" him as a SSJ2.

3. Goku comically backhanded him away like a chump.

4. SSJR Trunks fought Black on somewhat equal terms whilst one kick sent Zamasu crashing to the ground.

5. SJR Trunks blasted him away immediately before fighting Black and then reverted back to SSJ2 to fight Zamasu.

6. Goku easily beat the tar out of him again after they came back to the future.

I double checked. He hit Goku one time in Episode 57 and Trunks one time in Episode 63 legit, those were the only times he actually hit someone through without assistance. He went the whole saga actually hitting someone twice.

1.present zamasu he defeated not f.zamasu
2. Same trunks that blocked that intended for ssjb goku and even kicked ssjr black into a building ya know the same guy who stomped his ass in base alone.
3.You mean a pissed off,enraged Ssjb goku that even for a moment made black look like a fool.
Same ssj2 trunks that got stronger than last time also its been stated that drops his guard everytime he's been attack stated by trunks and goku plus trunks had to get away from him resorted to use all of his power to put him down before black interfer
4. Watched it blocked trunks instead of getting instant ko than later along with black knocked the ssjb outta of vegeta than
latter in another combination attack hurted trunks in his ikari form.
5.same as 3 he drops his guard everytime he's gets hit why are you ignoring this.
6.the dude even kicked vegeta outta of focus for a second before running going back to black.
Seriously quit with the mental gymanstics here he's blue level while he's inferior to black,goku,vegeta and trunks in his rage form doesn't mean he's not in their level especially where he can hold his against them to a degree and still be a threat to him.
Sometimes i question the logic of this fanbase with shit like this.

[pacz360]

It's actually sad that people are still saying things like "F. Zamasu was beaten by Ssj2 Trunks" when it was clearly stated that Zamasu always lowers his guard due to his immortality.

Yep especially when trunks and even goku said this but hey screw certain details like this to downplay a characterS power.

[Lord Frieza]

Yeah we must be totally full of #### when we point out that Trunks, the guy who got curb stomped by SS3 Goku, is a Gary Stun and a "Wildcard" when he barley survived fighting base Black yet can somehow tangle with SSR Black and Zamasu, is able to pull a new form right out of his ass, learned a technique that took Goku a day to learn in mere moments and also pull of a Genki Sword right out of his ass.

Yes its totally Zamasu that's the one causing all the inconsistencies.

Super is full of inconsistency. That is why I try to not take any one battle or scenario too literally but how it fits in to the entire recent body of work. It's not just Zamasu who causes issues, its Trunks as well no doubt.

Yeah heres the thing from my perspective.

I am not saying Zamasu is equal to SSB Goku, if you lined them all up in a nice row Black, Goku and Vegeta are all stronger then Zamasu. What I am not buying is the idea that Zamasu is no stronger then when he battled ss2 Goku.

I have looked at every argument here and not one of them holds up as there is information and implications in the story that provide more then adequate to override them.

The real kicker for me is people insist on talking about Zamasu fighting Trunks ans comparing the two, when there are many logical reasons within the narrative for Zamasu to be stronger then he was while the level of total bullshit the writers us to keep Trunks relevent in story is shocking.

Zamasu is a powerful kaioshin who has had 17 years to improve plus his time with Black, Trunks mean while pulls off leaps in power in a matter days, hours or even minuets with zero hinting, suggestion or possibility.

How are the two even in the same ball park?

[Lord Frieza]

Yeah we must be totally full of #### [...]

*sigh* No one said it.

Yeah well you dont HAVE to say it when what we talk about is so casually tossed aside and treated as such.

[LowRyder2005]

Yeah we must be totally full of #### [...]

*sigh* No one said it.

Yeah well you dont HAVE to say it when what we talk about is so casually tossed aside and treated as such.

I did not say it because I did not think it. And it's pretty clear when you read the post you referred to in its entirity.

EDIT: By the way - if anything - you look like the one who thinks the other party is full of crap to me. You keep promoting the explanation of Trunks being the guy who takes the part of the monkey wrench as the only possible one, basically discounting for no reason in particular the alternative explanation that both Trunks and Zamas, for one, may have the same glaring issues when it comes to power scaling. Trunks' power being the one thing off in the grander scheme of things is perfectly feasible, but it's certainly not the only possible explanation.

[Lord Frieza]

*sigh* No one said it.

Yeah well you dont HAVE to say it when what we talk about is so casually tossed aside and treated as such.

I did not say it because I did not think it. And it's pretty clear when you read the post you referred to in its entirity.

Well I think the best way to deal with this is to say......sorry for miss reading the implication of your words and sorry if I was rude.

[Lord Frieza]

EDIT: By the way - if anything - you look like the one who thinks the other party is full of crap to me. You keep promoting the explanation of Trunks being the guy who takes the part of the monkey wrench as the only possible one, basically discounting for no reason in particular the alternative explanation that both Trunks and Zamas, for one, may have the same glaring issues when it comes to power scaling. Trunks' power being the one thing off in the grander scheme of things is perfectly feasible, but it's certainly not the only possible explanation.

Do I discount them when I have said I have looked at every single one and found none of them viable?

But Ok starting from scratch....

1) Being a fighting genius doesn't mean you can go to Blue tier, it's just a shitty excuse, just like the one used with Frieza - Future Zamasu is a fighting genius from race who's weakest members can fell Namek Saga Frieza in a single blow. His power increase dose not happen over a period of time that is two short such as a few days months such as Trunks, Krillin or Frieza. Nor is he in an environment where he cannot potentially progress like #17 stuck on an island with just animels and poachers.

2) There is no reason at all for Kaioshins to keep focused just in getting stronger, since they are not going to use that strength for anythingg - Zamasu dose not have the mentality of a normal kaioshin.

3) People nowadays act like being a prodigy and train for years can be used as an excuse to get God tier - This statement is right, being a prodigy and train for years dose not mean instant power up......unless ther is a logical reason behind it or statments within the story itself. This is based soloy around whats been kicking of with the humans and 17 in the current arc, these are all characters who've had there limitations clearly defined for years and so sudden power boosts make no sense. Zamasu is powerful kaioshin, a race who's full potential and limitations have never been full explored in any great detail and Zamasu is out right stated to have the potential to become as powerful as Beerus one day if he trained.

4) He being SSB tier in fact is another thing that makes the Zamasu duo too incompetent in the anime version: if he was so strong and they really wanted to kill Trunks, why was Black, the weaker of the two by a great margin, the one who tried to do it? Future Zamasu could have oneshoted Trunks Edit (Missread ) - As is pointed out in the show itself, Black, while pragmatic, likes to test out his power and improve. Before this point their main threat was the GoD, guys who could murder Black and Zamasu with zero effort. There was no room for self progression when dealing with them. Trunks on the other hand was more of a nuisance then a threat and one they didn't fear. so Black, just as he did with Goku and Vegeta later on, used Trunks as a practice tool to help him grow stronger.

5) Zamasu wasn't even as strong as Base Black - is there any evidence for this in the anime?

If I missed anything out let me know please.

[LowRyder2005]

I was not referring to any specific reason pertaining to why Zamas can't or shouldn't become that strong; my criticism was related to the assumption that Zamas' power must be clearly representative of someone more or less on par with SSBs, while Trunks - being the one who should, accordingly, be weaker, no ifs and buts - has to be the one who possesses some plot armor, most likely because of his character role.

In other words, I was pointing out that this same "sloppy writing" could apply to both Trunks and Zamas and that they may suffer from the same issues. In short, both characters could be intended to be weak on paper, and having performances that due to the scripts/fight coreographies did not really reflect their status. That was the thing I don't think anyone should readily discount.

[Lord Frieza]

I was not referring to any specific reason pertaining to why Zamas can't or shouldn't become that strong; my criticism was related to the assumption that Zamas' power must be clearly representative of someone more or less on par with SSBs, while Trunks - being the one who should, accordingly, be weaker, no ifs and buts - has to be the one who possesses some plot armor, most likely because of his character role.

In other words, I was pointing out that this same "sloppy writing" could apply to both Trunks and Zamas and that they may suffer from the same issues. In short, both characters could be intended to be weak on paper, and having performances that do to the script did not really reflect their status. That was the thing I don't think anyone should readily discount.

Ahhh I see know thank you for explaining.

As I see it there is nothing that shows Zamasu is ment to be that weak, at least in the anime. For me I see it in a similar light to Vegito vs Grotesque Zamasu. Goku is more powerful and under normal circumstances would kill Zamasu with his more serious attacks but Zamasu is powerful enough that he can hurt Goku to. Zamasu's immortality stops Goku from killing him and the gap in power is not enough to make Goku safe from his attacks, especially when Black is thrown in the mix.

Were I think the writing goes wonky is that it dose not properly display this and a big part of that problem is Trunks and what they use him for. Much like the current arc and its odd power scaleing, when characters start getting nonsensical power boosts it muddies the water and blurs lines. SSB Goku looks much weaker because Krillin and #17 are performing too well against him. Like wise had Trunks not been in the equation we would likely not be having this talk at all.

What I will concide is that maybe in the original script, Zamasu was weaker and Toei decided to make him stronger. As I see it however, Zamasu has far superior bedrock for that change to be built on while Trunks dose not.

Edit: Just to clarify, while I view this in a simiur light to the Vegito vs Grotesque Zamasu fight, I think there is a bit of a bigger gap in Goku's favor then between Vegito and Zamasu.

[Kaboom]

pacz360, not only is your spelling and grammar in dire need of attention, and your needless double-posting is making things messy, but the rude and dismissive attitude displayed in your posts is not how we want to see people converse with each other here. Please try to take more care with all three aspects when you post from now on.

[Bullza]

1.present zamasu he defeated not f.zamasu
2. Same trunks that blocked that intended for ssjb goku and even kicked ssjr black into a building ya know the same guy who stomped his ass in base alone.
3.You mean a pissed off,enraged Ssjb goku that even for a moment made black look like a fool.
Same ssj2 trunks that got stronger than last time also its been stated that drops his guard everytime he's been attack stated by trunks and goku plus trunks had to get away from him resorted to use all of his power to put him down before black interfer
4. Watched it blocked trunks instead of getting instant ko than later along with black knocked the ssjb outta of vegeta than
latter in another combination attack hurted trunks in his ikari form.
5.same as 3 he drops his guard everytime he's gets hit why are you ignoring this.
6.the dude even kicked vegeta outta of focus for a second before running going back to black.
Seriously quit with the mental gymanstics here he's blue level while he's inferior to black,goku,vegeta and trunks in his rage form doesn't mean he's not in their level especially where he can hold his against them to a degree and still be a threat to him.
Sometimes i question the logic of this fanbase with shit like this.

1. They're the same. Aside from the immortality there's no difference. Neither version is SSJB level as both are inferior to Super Saiyan 2 both in the anime and in the manga.

2. Trunks couldn't sense God Ki he was inferior to Base Goku in the Resurrection F saga because of this. He was weaker than SSJ2 Goku in the anime and on par with SSJ3 Goku in the manga. That's about it.

3. Nah he blitzed right past Zamasu but Black was able to hold his own. He held his hold and took the shots, Zamasu couldn't even fight back he was done in twice easily.

4. Yeah combination attacks. He alone does diddly squat in the couple times he actually does hit someone.

5. Zamasu let's his guard down after an attack but that didn't stop him from immediately being hit and taking that attack and being taken out before the bigger fight involving Black. Afterwards a drained Trunks as just a Super Saiyan held his own against Zamasu who still barely hit him and did no damage anyway.

6. A surprise cheap shot on someone who wasn't expecting it, that's nothing considering what Sorbet did.

So yeah essentially he is no match for of these people, immortality is the reason he hangs in there otherwise he'd have been killed outright by SSJ2 Trunks when he stabbed him. He's stated to be weaker than Trunks in the manga, this would be true for the anime too as is shown.

And Trunks is obviously not Blue level until his significant boost to Rage form which only then allowed him to fight back properly.

[GodKaio-Ken]

Yeah we must be totally full of #### when we point out that Trunks, the guy who got curb stomped by SS3 Goku, is a Gary Stun and a "Wildcard" when he barley survived fighting base Black yet can somehow tangle with SSR Black and Zamasu, is able to pull a new form right out of his ass, learned a technique that took Goku a day to learn in mere moments and also pull of a Genki Sword right out of his ass.

Yes its totally Zamasu that's the one causing all the inconsistencies.

Super is full of inconsistency. That is why I try to not take any one battle or scenario too literally but how it fits in to the entire recent body of work. It's not just Zamasu who causes issues, its Trunks as well no doubt.

Yeah heres the thing from my perspective.

I am not saying Zamasu is equal to SSB Goku, if you lined them all up in a nice row Black, Goku and Vegeta are all stronger then Zamasu. What I am not buying is the idea that Zamasu is no stronger then when he battled ss2 Goku.

I have looked at every argument here and not one of them holds up as there is information and implications in the story that provide more then adequate to override them.

The real kicker for me is people insist on talking about Zamasu fighting Trunks ans comparing the two, when there are many logical reasons within the narrative for Zamasu to be stronger then he was while the level of total bullshit the writers us to keep Trunks relevent in story is shocking.

Zamasu is a powerful kaioshin who has had 17 years to improve plus his time with Black, Trunks mean while pulls off leaps in power in a matter days, hours or even minuets with zero hinting, suggestion or possibility.

How are the two even in the same ball park?

Oh he is more than likely much stronger than when they sparred. Future Zamasu was recruited into the whole thing and most likely did training in those years of course.

As a hypothetical situation lets say SSJ2 Goku was fighting himself as SSB Goku somehow....I don't believe SSJ2 Goku could even land a hit on SSB Goku. For that reason I'd have to guess Future Zamasu is probably somewhere -around- SSJ3 more or less but with immortality and a highly skilled mind. People should remember technique doesn't make your strength higher...it means you have awesome technique. Future Zamasu may be an incredible prodigy in technical terms which would help him further bridge the gap.