The Future Trunks Arc Under a Critical Lens

[TheDevilsCorpse]

The attitude in some of this thread's responses needs to be dialed back a notch, to a more polite tone.

And Shuby, please start previewing your posts for formatting issues before clicking the submit button. This will help you to learn how the site's features function and hopefully prevent further messes that mods have to waste time cleaning up.

Also, there's also no need to double/triple/quadruple post in such a short time frame. The reply page allows you to select multiple users to respond to.

[buutenks]

I got 2 issues with the arc, first is the go back in time come back and repeat 2 more times. It was unnecessary. They should have gone just twice, 3 times was to much. And the bad animation or art or w/e it was in ep 67. Vegeta looked horrible when he tried to go ssj blue, and it really put me off from the scene.

Those are my issues with the arc.

[Shuby]

He descended into madness which was so deep that he didn't even care for the good mortals which was evident when he wrecks Trunks's future and taunts Trunks who was grieving over Mai's supposed death. As a matter of fact, he looked too much on the evil side of humanity and was influenced heavily by it to the point where he even wants to kill mortals that aren't remotely bad.

Why should he show disgust? It's not like he thought that he became a mortal himself anyway. He was still a god except in a more efficient body that increases in strength and reaches great heights in power constantly in battle. As a matter of fact, he actually thought that he himself gave Goku more of a reputation by putting him at the height of beauty (EP 56).

He learned all that shit in his battle with Goku in the present? The show even shows Black constantly adapting and learning all about Goku in his body unless you are purposely ignoring all of that. Ever since Zamasu entered Goku's body, alterations occurred such as his aura, ki, physique, etc. It's so obvious that I don't know why it should be a headcanon.

Trunks wasn't even a match for Zamasu. Zamasu didn't even take Trunks remotely seriously since he is literally immortal and allowed himself to be stabbed and attacked to show how Trunks's attacks were hopeless against him and wanted Trunks to be aware of his state of powerlessness. He basically wanted to destroy all the hope and confidence Trunks had in him

There's more to his character than just that. Such as his disturbing admiration for Goku when he steals his body even to the point where he's even influenced by his body's impulses and inherits Goku's lust for reaching greater heights.

- Which like I noted , is terribly told within the context of the story. The fact that he looked too much into the evil side of humanity despite not being initially heavily prejudiced is why his motivation sucks. Besides when did he actually descend into madness what were his thoughts of mortals before that? Why are all of the good things that the mortals have done and Zamasu's opinion about that left out? This, as a results leaves Zamasu underdeveloped.

- Because he's using a mortal's body. Imagine Hitler throwing his conciousness into a Jew's body, or a KKK member doing the same to a black person. Its hypocritical and illogical to their characters. Him finding himself even more beautiful after using a mortal's body is even more contradictory lol.

- A Saiyan when he transforms into a SSj either has gold or blue hair. The manga corrected it by having an explanation. When Ginyu accessed Goku's body or Vegeta allowed for Babidi to somewhat do the same, there were no alterations there either. You could say things like Zamasu fushed his ki into the saiyan transformation resulting him having this pink transformation.
Which was only explained in the manga, like I said. The anime made no attempt to explain why it was pink.

- Yes, but the moments where Zamasu was trying to mock him were intentionally shown to be just that: mocking. Trunks overpowering him only for him to get shocked is a problem with powerscaling and bad writing, not mocking. You, yourself said that the power scalling sucked yet you overlook this problems..

It's not really head cannon when it's a logical way of how the scene works. If someone pushes a glass over, it's not a head-cannon to say that the glass fell because their hand pushed against it.Of course they were both pushing, piercing won't happen if there's no pressure or resistance from the side that goes through the other.

Even though it's been constantly noted by Goku, Trunks and Vegito that Zamasu keeps letting his guard down. Even though the show continuously emphasising how effective a surprise attack can be.

It doesn't matter how focused you are, if someone pulls out a trump card that you didn't expect, you're going to be caught off guard. And Super barely ever shows a lot of damage (Which is a problem), so it's asinine to assume that the Galick Gun had no effect.

If he realised his hypocrisy he wouldn't be as entertaining a villain. A lot of the entertainment value of Zamasu is in how blatantly ego-centric, insane and hammy he is as well as the poetic irony of his defeat.

- That still doesn't make sense at all. Surface area doesn't mean anything, and his Kamehameha shouldn't overpower his strongest attack because he is weaker. Things like piercing and surface area don't matter in this type of argument though. Gohan as a SSj2 pushed away Cell's Kamehameha with a smaller one, so the whole surface area and piercing or whatever argument is already moot.
Why apply real life physics to a children's show? Especially when it never been done by the writers or Toriyama, which makes your argument not plausible at all, since the power scalling of this arc was terrible anyways, i think Goku able to
pierce through his attack because he is Goku makes much more sense.

- Zamasu comes off as a self-centric in the long run a boring villain, a better approch would be how they developed him like they did with Sensui, both hated humanity.

[Kanassa]

- That still doesn't make sense at all. Surface area doesn't mean anything, and his Kamehameha shouldn't overpower his strongest attack because he is weaker. Things like piercing and surface area don't matter in this type of argument though. Gohan as a SSj2 pushed away Cell's Kamehameha with a smaller one, so the whole surface area and piercing or whatever argument is already moot.

There's a large differece between [spoiler][/spoiler] and [spoiler][/spoiler]

And again, Goku didn't overpower Zamasu's strongest attack. Look right here [spoiler][/spoiler] The kamehameha is piercing the attack, right there on the screen.

- Zamasu comes off as a self-centric in the long run a boring villain, a better approch would be how they developed Sensui, both hated humanity.

His attributes of hammyness, ego and self-righteous hypocrisy is what made him an entertaining and interesting villain as he went further and further over the edge. With Zamasu, I think the route you want to go would be absolutely boring for Zamasu's character and would drag down the arc.

[Shuby]

- That still doesn't make sense at all. Surface area doesn't mean anything, and his Kamehameha shouldn't overpower his strongest attack because he is weaker. Things like piercing and surface area don't matter in this type of argument though. Gohan as a SSj2 pushed away Cell's Kamehameha with a smaller one, so the whole surface area and piercing or whatever argument is already moot.

There's a large differece between [spoiler][/spoiler] and [spoiler][/spoiler]

And again, Goku didn't overpower Zamasu's strongest attack. Look right here [spoiler][/spoiler] The kamehameha is piercing the attack, right there on the screen.

- Zamasu comes off as a self-centric in the long run a boring villain, a better approch would be how they developed Sensui, both hated humanity.

His attributes of hammyness, ego and self-righteous hypocrisy is what made him an entertaining and interesting villain as he went further and further over the edge. With Zamasu, I think the route you want to go would be absolutely boring for Zamasu's character and would drag down the arc.

- Again, overpowering or piercing it doesn't matter, it shouldn't happen because Goku is waaaaaay weaker. Also, the Kamehameha I was referring to with Cell and Gohan was not the final clash, I meant the one which made Cell go into his buff/SSj stage 3-esque state, also applying physics here doesnt work since that isnt how Toriyama does his work. Then he rushed at Zamasu hits a few good blows despite using his full kamehameha, which would result in making Goku tired and f''ks Zamasu up.
Again it's more plausible that it has to do with terrible power scalling and Goku being the main guy.

- The arc at certain areas was incredibly rushed,i dont think anyone would mind if those aspects were to be shown.

[Freeza9000]

- Which like I noted , is terribly told within the context of the story. The fact that he looked too much into the evil side of humanity despite not being initially heavily prejudiced is why his motivation sucks. Besides when did he actually descend into madness what were his thoughts of mortals before that? Why are all of the good things that the mortals have done and Zamasu's opinion about that left out? This, as a results leaves Zamasu underdeveloped.

- Because he's using a mortal's body. Imagine Hitler throwing his conciousness into a Jew's body, or a KKK member doing the same to a black person. Its hypocritical and illogical to their characters. Him finding himself even more beautiful after using a mortal's body is even more contradictory.

- A Saiyan when he transforms into a SSj either has gold or blue hair. The manga corrected it by having an explanation. When Ginyu accessed Goku's body or Vegeta allowed for Babidi to somewhat do the same, there were no alterations there either. You could say things like Zamasu fushed his ki into the saiyan transformation resulting him having this pink transformation. Which was only explained in the manga, like I said. The anime made no attempt to explain why it was pink.

- Yes, but the moments where Zamasu was trying to mock him were intentionally shown to be just that: mocking. Trunks overpowering him only for him to get shocked is a problem with powerscaling and bad writing, not mocking. You, yourself said that the power scalling sucked yet you overlook this problems..

-The show shows how Zamasu overlooks the amount of good left by attacking Trunks's future and taunting Trunks over Mai's "death". His beliefs on all of humanity being evil is the equivalent of believing all Nazis or Germans are evil trash. His ideology is made to be this purposely flawed and irrational which the show even acknowledge with other characters pointing it out such as Mai's statement to Zamasu

-Are you just gonna ignore what I said last time? Zamasu never thought that he became a mortal anyway after taking Goku's body so why should he feel disgust? Besides, he actually believed he did himself a service by inhabiting the body of one that rivals the gods and has the potential of surpassing them as well.

-One can imply that Zamasu purposely made the form pink just like how Freeza decided the color scheme of his new form. "Look at this color, isn't it beautiful?" after Black transforms into SSJR. That sure sounds like Zamasu purposely chose the color scheme that way himself.

-I never said the powerscaling was off for that particular scene so stop shoving fucking words in my mouth. And Zamasu purposely let Trunks gain the advantage over him to prove his invulnerability and how powerless the trio of Saiyans were to him. Basically wanting to destroy all the hope Trunks has left. Other than that, he was far stronger than SSJ2 Trunks which was proven when he effortlessly held him by the neck with one arm.

[GodKaio-Ken]

He descended into madness which was so deep that he didn't even care for the good mortals which was evident when he wrecks Trunks's future and taunts Trunks who was grieving over Mai's supposed death. As a matter of fact, he looked too much on the evil side of humanity and was influenced heavily by it to the point where he even wants to kill mortals that aren't remotely bad.

Why should he show disgust? It's not like he thought that he became a mortal himself anyway. He was still a god except in a more efficient body that increases in strength and reaches great heights in power constantly in battle. As a matter of fact, he actually thought that he himself gave Goku more of a reputation by putting him at the height of beauty (EP 56).

He learned all that shit in his battle with Goku in the present? The show even shows Black constantly adapting and learning all about Goku in his body unless you are purposely ignoring all of that. Ever since Zamasu entered Goku's body, alterations occurred such as his aura, ki, physique, etc. It's so obvious that I don't know why it should be a headcanon.

Trunks wasn't even a match for Zamasu. Zamasu didn't even take Trunks remotely seriously since he is literally immortal and allowed himself to be stabbed and attacked to show how Trunks's attacks were hopeless against him and wanted Trunks to be aware of his state of powerlessness. He basically wanted to destroy all the hope and confidence Trunks had in him

There's more to his character than just that. Such as his disturbing admiration for Goku when he steals his body even to the point where he's even influenced by his body's impulses and inherits Goku's lust for reaching greater heights.

- Which like I noted , is terribly told within the context of the story. The fact that he looked too much into the evil side of humanity despite not being initially heavily prejudiced is why his motivation sucks. Besides when did he actually descend into madness what were his thoughts of mortals before that? Why are all of the good things that the mortals have done and Zamasu's opinion about that left out? This, as a results leaves Zamasu underdeveloped.

- Because he's using a mortal's body. Imagine Hitler throwing his conciousness into a Jew's body, or a KKK member doing the same to a black person. Its hypocritical and illogical to their characters. Him finding himself even more beautiful after using a mortal's body is even more contradictory lol.

- A Saiyan when he transforms into a SSj either has gold or blue hair. The manga corrected it by having an explanation. When Ginyu accessed Goku's body or Vegeta allowed for Babidi to somewhat do the same, there were no alterations there either. You could say things like Zamasu fushed his ki into the saiyan transformation resulting him having this pink transformation.
Which was only explained in the manga, like I said. The anime made no attempt to explain why it was pink.

- Yes, but the moments where Zamasu was trying to mock him were intentionally shown to be just that: mocking. Trunks overpowering him only for him to get shocked is a problem with powerscaling and bad writing, not mocking. You, yourself said that the power scalling sucked yet you overlook this problems..

It's not really head cannon when it's a logical way of how the scene works. If someone pushes a glass over, it's not a head-cannon to say that the glass fell because their hand pushed against it.Of course they were both pushing, piercing won't happen if there's no pressure or resistance from the side that goes through the other.

Even though it's been constantly noted by Goku, Trunks and Vegito that Zamasu keeps letting his guard down. Even though the show continuously emphasising how effective a surprise attack can be.

It doesn't matter how focused you are, if someone pulls out a trump card that you didn't expect, you're going to be caught off guard. And Super barely ever shows a lot of damage (Which is a problem), so it's asinine to assume that the Galick Gun had no effect.

If he realised his hypocrisy he wouldn't be as entertaining a villain. A lot of the entertainment value of Zamasu is in how blatantly ego-centric, insane and hammy he is as well as the poetic irony of his defeat.

- That still doesn't make sense at all. Surface area doesn't mean anything, and his Kamehameha shouldn't overpower his strongest attack because he is weaker. Things like piercing and surface area don't matter in this type of argument though. Gohan as a SSj2 pushed away Cell's Kamehameha with a smaller one, so the whole surface area and piercing or whatever argument is already moot.
Why apply real life physics to a children's show? Especially when it never been done by the writers or Toriyama, which makes your argument not plausible at all, since the power scalling of this arc was terrible anyways, i think Goku able to
pierce through his attack because he is Goku makes much more sense.

- Zamasu comes off as a self-centric in the long run a boring villain, a better approch would be how they developed him like they did with Sensui, both hated humanity.

I dont like Zamasus motivation but IMO youre looking at it wrong.

The point is that in the end humanity will always be evil. No matter how much good individuals do there will always be those who cause destruction. He knows there can never be true peace and therefore humanity as a whole is flawed. He then imposes those general negatives onto individuals.

[Boo Machine]

- Which like I noted , is terribly told within the context of the story. The fact that he looked too much into the evil side of humanity despite not being initially heavily prejudiced is why his motivation sucks. Besides when did he actually descend into madness what were his thoughts of mortals before that? Why are all of the good things that the mortals have done and Zamasu's opinion about that left out? This, as a results leaves Zamasu underdeveloped.

Context of the story? The context is zamasu is an evil dude and kills people The heros must stop him. Doesn't need to be more complicated than that. Zamasus development was one where he went from disliking mortals and wanting to do something about it, to full blown hate. The character doesn't need to go through every development color in the rainbow to be a good character. You can argue that he could have seen the good side, but just like with any real person, people will see and believe what they want to in order to validate their own views. Zamasu already doesn't like mortals so any good is automatically hand waved by him.

- Because he's using a mortal's body. Imagine Hitler throwing his conciousness into a Jew's body, or a KKK member doing the same to a black person. Its hypocritical and illogical to their characters. Him finding himself even more beautiful after using a mortal's body is even more contradictory lol.

That isn't nearly the same thing. Zamasu believes himself to be so above everything else that even in a mortal body he is still godly. And with the power he had after you can't even say he was wrong. He even acknowledges it later. He just doesn't care because "It's for the sake of the world".

- A Saiyan when he transforms into a SSj either has gold or blue hair. The manga corrected it by having an explanation. When Ginyu accessed Goku's body or Vegeta allowed for Babidi to somewhat do the same, there were no alterations there either. You could say things like Zamasu fushed his ki into the saiyan transformation resulting him having this pink transformation.
Which was only explained in the manga, like I said. The anime made no attempt to explain why it was pink.

This is such a non issue. The hair color doesn't affect anything in the story or characters. Why is it pink? I don't know. Why is any transformation the color that it is? Because it looks cool. Sometimes you just have to go for style points, friend.

- Yes, but the moments where Zamasu was trying to mock him were intentionally shown to be just that: mocking. Trunks overpowering him only for him to get shocked is a problem with powerscaling and bad writing, not mocking. You, yourself said that the power scalling sucked yet you overlook this problems..

Zamasu is known to let his guard down because of his immortality. Every character points this out. Usually after having punched him in the face for letting his guard down. Not the the show doesn't have power scaling issues, but Trunks getting hits on Zamasu is hardly one of the biggest ones.

- That still doesn't make sense at all. Surface area doesn't mean anything, and his Kamehameha shouldn't overpower his strongest attack because he is weaker. Things like piercing and surface area don't matter in this type of argument though. Gohan as a SSj2 pushed away Cell's Kamehameha with a smaller one, so the whole surface area and piercing or whatever argument is already moot.
Why apply real life physics to a children's show? Especially when it never been done by the writers or Toriyama, which makes your argument not plausible at all, since the power scalling of this arc was terrible anyways, i think Goku able to
pierce through his attack because he is Goku makes much more sense.

Even if the piercing argument doesn't make sense, look at the way the attack goes down it self. After Vegeta and trunks do their blast, they are fine. Tired, but fine. But Goku pushed his blast so hard it broke both his arms. Goku pushed himself way harder than Vegeta and trunks did thus ending up with a different result. But I suppose you could attribute that to Goku just being better than everyone else. We already know that he is.

Zamasu comes off as a self-centric in the long run a boring villain, a better approch would be how they developed him like they did with Sensui, both hated humanity.

It's fair if you think Zamasu is boring. But again, a villain doesn't have to go through the entire spectrum of development to be a good character. Zamasus character is one that is ego-centric and hateful and that's all it needed to be to serve the story. Again, if you find that boring then that's fair.

[buutenks]

I find it amusing how people expect some top class villain. Its DB, not some soap opera. Zamasu dislikes mortals and wants to get rid of them. He started off as unsure if he should kill them off and gradually was convinced that was the only way. Zamasu is a psychopath who thinks his way is the right way and everyone else is wrong. I dont get why people want some complicated mambo jumbo stuff. Like any Z villain was deep. Freeza was born an asshole and since he had a crap ton of power he became a universal dictator, the end.

[Shuby]

- That still doesn't make sense at all. Surface area doesn't mean anything, and his Kamehameha shouldn't overpower his strongest attack because he is weaker. Things like piercing and surface area don't matter in this type of argument though. Gohan as a SSj2 pushed away Cell's Kamehameha with a smaller one, so the whole surface area and piercing or whatever argument is already moot.

There's a large differece between [spoiler][/spoiler] and [spoiler][/spoiler]

And again, Goku didn't overpower Zamasu's strongest attack. Look right here [spoiler][/spoiler] The kamehameha is piercing the attack, right there on the screen.

- Zamasu comes off as a self-centric in the long run a boring villain, a better approch would be how they developed Sensui, both hated humanity.

His attributes of hammyness, ego and self-righteous hypocrisy is what made him an entertaining and interesting villain as he went further and further over the edge. With Zamasu, I think the route you want to go would be absolutely boring for Zamasu's character and would drag down the arc.

- Again, overpowering or piercing it doesn't matter, it shouldn't happen because Goku is waaaaaay weaker. Also, the Kamehameha I was referring to with Cell and Gohan was not the final clash, I meant the one which made Cell go into his buff/SSj stage 3-esque state, also applying physics here doesnt work since that isnt how Toriyama does his work. Then he rushed at Zamasu hits a few good blows despite using his full kamehameha, which would result in making Goku tired and f''ks Zamasu up.
Again it's more plausible that it has to do with terrible power scalling and Goku being the main guy.

- The arc at certain areas was incredibly rushed,i dont think anyone would mind if those aspects were to be shown.

Also, regardless of the actual mechanics behind it, it's still a poorly conveyed scene & Goku is still made out to seem stronger than them.

[Shuby]

- Which like I noted , is terribly told within the context of the story. The fact that he looked too much into the evil side of humanity despite not being initially heavily prejudiced is why his motivation sucks. Besides when did he actually descend into madness what were his thoughts of mortals before that? Why are all of the good things that the mortals have done and Zamasu's opinion about that left out? This, as a results leaves Zamasu underdeveloped.

- Because he's using a mortal's body. Imagine Hitler throwing his conciousness into a Jew's body, or a KKK member doing the same to a black person. Its hypocritical and illogical to their characters. Him finding himself even more beautiful after using a mortal's body is even more contradictory.

- A Saiyan when he transforms into a SSj either has gold or blue hair. The manga corrected it by having an explanation. When Ginyu accessed Goku's body or Vegeta allowed for Babidi to somewhat do the same, there were no alterations there either. You could say things like Zamasu fushed his ki into the saiyan transformation resulting him having this pink transformation. Which was only explained in the manga, like I said. The anime made no attempt to explain why it was pink.

- Yes, but the moments where Zamasu was trying to mock him were intentionally shown to be just that: mocking. Trunks overpowering him only for him to get shocked is a problem with powerscaling and bad writing, not mocking. You, yourself said that the power scalling sucked yet you overlook this problems..

-The show shows how Zamasu overlooks the amount of good left by attacking Trunks's future and taunting Trunks over Mai's "death". His beliefs on all of humanity being evil is the equivalent of believing all Nazis or Germans are evil trash. His ideology is made to be this purposely flawed and irrational which the show even acknowledge with other characters pointing it out such as Mai's statement to Zamasu

-Are you just gonna ignore what I said last time? Zamasu never thought that he became a mortal anyway after taking Goku's body so why should he feel disgust? Besides, he actually believed he did himself a service by inhabiting the body of one that rivals the gods and has the potential of surpassing them as well.

-One can imply that Zamasu purposely made the form pink just like how Freeza decided the color scheme of his new form. "Look at this color, isn't it beautiful?" after Black transforms into SSJR. That sure sounds like Zamasu purposely chose the color scheme that way himself.

-I never said the powerscaling was off for that particular scene so stop shoving fucking words in my mouth. And Zamasu purposely let Trunks gain the advantage over him to prove his invulnerability and how powerless the trio of Saiyans were to him. Basically wanting to destroy all the hope Trunks has left. Other than that, he was far stronger than SSJ2 Trunks which was proven when he effortlessly held him by the neck with one arm.

-Still hasn't anwered my questions what he thought about the capacity of good , watching mortals for centuries, rather we see him despise mortals which is flawed and not that convincing at all, the moment he already overlooks the good things in humanity is already to late to answer my questions... which absolutely leaves him underdeveloped.

- the mere fact that he never thought that he would take a mortal body strengthens my point. You can be racist or prejudiced against a group of people, but using their body to kill them is contradictory to their character, common sense says they would despise it. He had the opportunity to switch bodies with STRONGER people than Goku, some who weren't mortals, like Beerus or Whis. He's a poorly written character because of that.

- So Zamasu was able to choose colors? Did Vegeta and Goku also do that? If not how is Zamasu able to do that? Again you completely failed to rebunk my statement. The manga perfectly states what SSJR is, the anime failed in providing answers period.

[Freeza9000]

- Which like I noted , is terribly told within the context of the story. The fact that he looked too much into the evil side of humanity despite not being initially heavily prejudiced is why his motivation sucks. Besides when did he actually descend into madness what were his thoughts of mortals before that? Why are all of the good things that the mortals have done and Zamasu's opinion about that left out? This, as a results leaves Zamasu underdeveloped.

- Because he's using a mortal's body. Imagine Hitler throwing his conciousness into a Jew's body, or a KKK member doing the same to a black person. Its hypocritical and illogical to their characters. Him finding himself even more beautiful after using a mortal's body is even more contradictory.

- A Saiyan when he transforms into a SSj either has gold or blue hair. The manga corrected it by having an explanation. When Ginyu accessed Goku's body or Vegeta allowed for Babidi to somewhat do the same, there were no alterations there either. You could say things like Zamasu fushed his ki into the saiyan transformation resulting him having this pink transformation. Which was only explained in the manga, like I said. The anime made no attempt to explain why it was pink.

- Yes, but the moments where Zamasu was trying to mock him were intentionally shown to be just that: mocking. Trunks overpowering him only for him to get shocked is a problem with powerscaling and bad writing, not mocking. You, yourself said that the power scalling sucked yet you overlook this problems..

-The show shows how Zamasu overlooks the amount of good left by attacking Trunks's future and taunting Trunks over Mai's "death". His beliefs on all of humanity being evil is the equivalent of believing all Nazis or Germans are evil trash. His ideology is made to be this purposely flawed and irrational which the show even acknowledge with other characters pointing it out such as Mai's statement to Zamasu

-Are you just gonna ignore what I said last time? Zamasu never thought that he became a mortal anyway after taking Goku's body so why should he feel disgust? Besides, he actually believed he did himself a service by inhabiting the body of one that rivals the gods and has the potential of surpassing them as well.

-One can imply that Zamasu purposely made the form pink just like how Freeza decided the color scheme of his new form. "Look at this color, isn't it beautiful?" after Black transforms into SSJR. That sure sounds like Zamasu purposely chose the color scheme that way himself.

-I never said the powerscaling was off for that particular scene so stop shoving fucking words in my mouth. And Zamasu purposely let Trunks gain the advantage over him to prove his invulnerability and how powerless the trio of Saiyans were to him. Basically wanting to destroy all the hope Trunks has left. Other than that, he was far stronger than SSJ2 Trunks which was proven when he effortlessly held him by the neck with one arm.

-Still hasn't anwered my questions what he thought about the capacity of good , watching mortals for centuries, rather we see him despise mortals which is flawed and not that convincing at all, the moment he already overlooks the good things in humanity is already to late to answer my questions... which absolutely leaves him underdeveloped.

- the mere fact that he never thought that he would take a mortal body strengthens my point. You can be racist or prejudiced against a group of people, but using their body to kill them is contradictory to their character, common sense says they would despise it. He had the opportunity to switch bodies with STRONGER people than Goku, some who weren't mortals, like Beerus or Whis. He's a poorly written character because of that.

- So Zamasu was able to choose colors? Did Vegeta and Goku also do that? If not how is Zamasu able to do that? Again you completely failed to rebunk my statement. The manga perfectly states what SSJR is, the anime failed in providing answers period.

-Are you purposely trying to ignore my arguments now? I literally answered that question yet you just overlook that. You are only repeating your arguments over and over again rather than trying to counter the points I made.

-You have to realize that Zamasu is a power hungry narcissist. He doesn't care to feel shame or humiliation if he took the body of a mortal as long as it suits his purposes more than good enough (especially since it granted him great abilities and power such as his gradual increase in strength, etc.). Sure other gods were far stronger than Goku, but there was something within Goku that Zamasu values over the gods and has the great potential reacing even greater heights than the gods considering how the gods of U7 even gave the offer of giving a mere mortal the role of Hakaishin.

- Considering how much Zamasu has a penchant for beauty, magnificence and elegance, would it really be that farfetched to believe that he can change th color scheme to match his tastes?

[Shuby]

-The show shows how Zamasu overlooks the amount of good left by attacking Trunks's future and taunting Trunks over Mai's "death". His beliefs on all of humanity being evil is the equivalent of believing all Nazis or Germans are evil trash. His ideology is made to be this purposely flawed and irrational which the show even acknowledge with other characters pointing it out such as Mai's statement to Zamasu

-Are you just gonna ignore what I said last time? Zamasu never thought that he became a mortal anyway after taking Goku's body so why should he feel disgust? Besides, he actually believed he did himself a service by inhabiting the body of one that rivals the gods and has the potential of surpassing them as well.

-One can imply that Zamasu purposely made the form pink just like how Freeza decided the color scheme of his new form. "Look at this color, isn't it beautiful?" after Black transforms into SSJR. That sure sounds like Zamasu purposely chose the color scheme that way himself.

-I never said the powerscaling was off for that particular scene so stop shoving fucking words in my mouth. And Zamasu purposely let Trunks gain the advantage over him to prove his invulnerability and how powerless the trio of Saiyans were to him. Basically wanting to destroy all the hope Trunks has left. Other than that, he was far stronger than SSJ2 Trunks which was proven when he effortlessly held him by the neck with one arm.

-Still hasn't anwered my questions what he thought about the capacity of good , watching mortals for centuries, rather we see him despise mortals which is flawed and not that convincing at all, the moment he already overlooks the good things in humanity is already to late to answer my questions... which absolutely leaves him underdeveloped.

- the mere fact that he never thought that he would take a mortal body strengthens my point. You can be racist or prejudiced against a group of people, but using their body to kill them is contradictory to their character, common sense says they would despise it. He had the opportunity to switch bodies with STRONGER people than Goku, some who weren't mortals, like Beerus or Whis. He's a poorly written character because of that.

- So Zamasu was able to choose colors? Did Vegeta and Goku also do that? If not how is Zamasu able to do that? Again you completely failed to rebunk my statement. The manga perfectly states what SSJR is, the anime failed in providing answers period.

-Are you purposely trying to ignore my arguments now? I literally answered that question yet you just overlook that. You are only repeating your arguments over and over again rather than trying to counter the points I made.

-You have to realize that Zamasu is a power hungry narcissist. He doesn't care to feel shame or humiliation if he took the body of a mortal as long as it suits his purposes more than good enough (especially since it granted him great abilities and power such as his gradual increase in strength, etc.). Sure other gods were far stronger than Goku, but there was something within Goku that Zamasu values over the gods and has the great potential reacing even greater heights than the gods considering how the gods of U7 even gave the offer of giving a mere mortal the role of Hakaishin.

- Considering how much Zamasu has a penchant for beauty, magnificence and elegance, would it really be that farfetched to believe that he can change th color scheme to match his tastes?

If he's so deadset against using time travel but then uses it himself without us seeing why he decided to think that way, then yes, it IS him being poorly written. Same with him randomly deciding humans just fight in a universe which is better than Universe 7's after watching them for a 1000 years.

Of course he still believes he is godly, that isn't the point. If he hates mortals, him not caring and him using a body are inconsistent with his ideology, thus he's still poorly written. Him not caring and him using Goku's body aren't excused when there are far better and more logical options to take, which would be more in line with his character.

You are not making sense anymore, rahter stating your points over and over again while i give clear reasons why it is flawed, I'm done, you're the type who thinks that Frieza's 4 months of training made sense bye, i have even told you how
the manga made sense.

[Shuby]

- That still doesn't make sense at all. Surface area doesn't mean anything, and his Kamehameha shouldn't overpower his strongest attack because he is weaker. Things like piercing and surface area don't matter in this type of argument though. Gohan as a SSj2 pushed away Cell's Kamehameha with a smaller one, so the whole surface area and piercing or whatever argument is already moot.

There's a large differece between [spoiler][/spoiler] and [spoiler][/spoiler]

And again, Goku didn't overpower Zamasu's strongest attack. Look right here [spoiler][/spoiler] The kamehameha is piercing the attack, right there on the screen.

- Zamasu comes off as a self-centric in the long run a boring villain, a better approch would be how they developed Sensui, both hated humanity.

His attributes of hammyness, ego and self-righteous hypocrisy is what made him an entertaining and interesting villain as he went further and further over the edge. With Zamasu, I think the route you want to go would be absolutely boring for Zamasu's character and would drag down the arc.

Also, regardless of the actual mechanics behind it, it's still a poorly conveyed scene & Goku is still made out to seem stronger than them. Also historically speaking:
Yes, that is what I said, it is a problem with powerscaling. Letting his guard down in a properly scaled Super wouldn't have resulted in him getting worked the way he did, like say when Cell tanked 16's punch to his face when his guard was down after he transformed. Or Raditz just losing some leg hairs when Piccolo tried to surprise attack him. Or Freeza tanking Nail's sneak attack. The list goes on: sneak attacks or surprise attacks only work when the fighters are generally in the same league, or when an attack is just inherently powerful, like the Kikoho or the Kienzan. At least in the manga, Zamasu is shown to be somewhat weaker than Trunks, but here in the anime, his power is all over the place, from getting shitted on by SSjb Goku and Vegeta to doing the shitting on. So the sneak attack argument doesn't work.

Again, saying that an attack works because its pushing properties or piercing properties or surface area or whatever doesn't make much sense, since that has nothing to do with how ki attacks work. A ki attack overtakes another because the guy is just stronger, not because of some real life physics stuff. because that''s not how dragon ball stuff is written.

[Shuby]

He descended into madness which was so deep that he didn't even care for the good mortals which was evident when he wrecks Trunks's future and taunts Trunks who was grieving over Mai's supposed death. As a matter of fact, he looked too much on the evil side of humanity and was influenced heavily by it to the point where he even wants to kill mortals that aren't remotely bad.

Why should he show disgust? It's not like he thought that he became a mortal himself anyway. He was still a god except in a more efficient body that increases in strength and reaches great heights in power constantly in battle. As a matter of fact, he actually thought that he himself gave Goku more of a reputation by putting him at the height of beauty (EP 56).

He learned all that shit in his battle with Goku in the present? The show even shows Black constantly adapting and learning all about Goku in his body unless you are purposely ignoring all of that. Ever since Zamasu entered Goku's body, alterations occurred such as his aura, ki, physique, etc. It's so obvious that I don't know why it should be a headcanon.

Trunks wasn't even a match for Zamasu. Zamasu didn't even take Trunks remotely seriously since he is literally immortal and allowed himself to be stabbed and attacked to show how Trunks's attacks were hopeless against him and wanted Trunks to be aware of his state of powerlessness. He basically wanted to destroy all the hope and confidence Trunks had in him

There's more to his character than just that. Such as his disturbing admiration for Goku when he steals his body even to the point where he's even influenced by his body's impulses and inherits Goku's lust for reaching greater heights.

- Which like I noted , is terribly told within the context of the story. The fact that he looked too much into the evil side of humanity despite not being initially heavily prejudiced is why his motivation sucks. Besides when did he actually descend into madness what were his thoughts of mortals before that? Why are all of the good things that the mortals have done and Zamasu's opinion about that left out? This, as a results leaves Zamasu underdeveloped.

- Because he's using a mortal's body. Imagine Hitler throwing his conciousness into a Jew's body, or a KKK member doing the same to a black person. Its hypocritical and illogical to their characters. Him finding himself even more beautiful after using a mortal's body is even more contradictory lol.

- A Saiyan when he transforms into a SSj either has gold or blue hair. The manga corrected it by having an explanation. When Ginyu accessed Goku's body or Vegeta allowed for Babidi to somewhat do the same, there were no alterations there either. You could say things like Zamasu fushed his ki into the saiyan transformation resulting him having this pink transformation.
Which was only explained in the manga, like I said. The anime made no attempt to explain why it was pink.

- Yes, but the moments where Zamasu was trying to mock him were intentionally shown to be just that: mocking. Trunks overpowering him only for him to get shocked is a problem with powerscaling and bad writing, not mocking. You, yourself said that the power scalling sucked yet you overlook this problems..

It's not really head cannon when it's a logical way of how the scene works. If someone pushes a glass over, it's not a head-cannon to say that the glass fell because their hand pushed against it.Of course they were both pushing, piercing won't happen if there's no pressure or resistance from the side that goes through the other.

Even though it's been constantly noted by Goku, Trunks and Vegito that Zamasu keeps letting his guard down. Even though the show continuously emphasising how effective a surprise attack can be.

It doesn't matter how focused you are, if someone pulls out a trump card that you didn't expect, you're going to be caught off guard. And Super barely ever shows a lot of damage (Which is a problem), so it's asinine to assume that the Galick Gun had no effect.

If he realised his hypocrisy he wouldn't be as entertaining a villain. A lot of the entertainment value of Zamasu is in how blatantly ego-centric, insane and hammy he is as well as the poetic irony of his defeat.

- That still doesn't make sense at all. Surface area doesn't mean anything, and his Kamehameha shouldn't overpower his strongest attack because he is weaker. Things like piercing and surface area don't matter in this type of argument though. Gohan as a SSj2 pushed away Cell's Kamehameha with a smaller one, so the whole surface area and piercing or whatever argument is already moot.
Why apply real life physics to a children's show? Especially when it never been done by the writers or Toriyama, which makes your argument not plausible at all, since the power scalling of this arc was terrible anyways, i think Goku able to
pierce through his attack because he is Goku makes much more sense.

- Zamasu comes off as a self-centric in the long run a boring villain, a better approch would be how they developed him like they did with Sensui, both hated humanity.

I dont like Zamasus motivation but IMO youre looking at it wrong.

The point is that in the end humanity will always be evil. No matter how much good individuals do there will always be those who cause destruction. He knows there can never be true peace and therefore humanity as a whole is flawed. He then imposes those general negatives onto individuals.

My point is did he always think like that? When did his motives really turn? Did he have or had conflicting thoughts about at one side mortals do good stuff and on the other side they do not? And why is that side of the coin not shown? if those answered cannot be answered he comes of as a underdeveloped character. And even if what you've stated is true, the anime did a poor job into conveying that to us.

[PsionicWarrior]

Hey mate just so you know Zamasu is one of the best written villains of the entire series cheers lol

[Freeza9000]

-Are you purposely trying to ignore my arguments now? I literally answered that question yet you just overlook that. You are only repeating your arguments over and over again rather than trying to counter the points I made.

-You have to realize that Zamasu is a power hungry narcissist. He doesn't care to feel shame or humiliation if he took the body of a mortal as long as it suits his purposes more than good enough (especially since it granted him great abilities and power such as his gradual increase in strength, etc.). Sure other gods were far stronger than Goku, but there was something within Goku that Zamasu values over the gods and has the great potential reacing even greater heights than the gods considering how the gods of U7 even gave the offer of giving a mere mortal the role of Hakaishin.

- Considering how much Zamasu has a penchant for beauty, magnificence and elegance, would it really be that farfetched to believe that he can change the color scheme to match his tastes?

If he's so deadset against using time travel but then uses it himself without us seeing why he decided to think that way, then yes, it IS him being poorly written. Same with him randomly deciding humans just fight in a universe which is better than Universe 7's after watching them for a 1000 years.

Of course he still believes he is godly, that isn't the point. If he hates mortals, him not caring and him using a body are inconsistent with his ideology, thus he's still poorly written. Him not caring and him using Goku's body aren't excused when there are far better and more logical options to take, which would be more in line with his character.

You are not making sense anymore, rahter stating your points over and over again while i give clear reasons why it is flawed, I'm done, you're the type who thinks that Frieza's 4 months of training made sense bye, i have even told you how the manga made sense.

-What he criticized Trunks for was altering the past and changing history. Except when Zamasu traveled in time with the time ring, it was acceptable since he only traveled to the future which the Time Ring allows for. In his universe, there are a bunch of macho muscular numbskulls that only know how to use their strength so it's not THAT much better. This isn't a problem against the arc, it's more of a problem about you not paying attention to key details in the story, that's all.
-A power hungry snide narcissist like Zamasu wouldn't even care if he took the body of one he hates as long as it grants him great power. It's what makes Zamasu all the more detestable and despicable. Sure other gods were far stronger than Goku, but there was something within Goku that Zamasu values over the gods and has the great potential reacing even greater heights than the gods considering how the gods of U7 even gave the offer of giving a mere mortal the role of Hakaishin. I've had to repeat myself many times now.
-You're the one not making sense. All you do is keep reiterating your points instead of countering my arguments.

[GodKaio-Ken]

- Which like I noted , is terribly told within the context of the story. The fact that he looked too much into the evil side of humanity despite not being initially heavily prejudiced is why his motivation sucks. Besides when did he actually descend into madness what were his thoughts of mortals before that? Why are all of the good things that the mortals have done and Zamasu's opinion about that left out? This, as a results leaves Zamasu underdeveloped.

- Because he's using a mortal's body. Imagine Hitler throwing his conciousness into a Jew's body, or a KKK member doing the same to a black person. Its hypocritical and illogical to their characters. Him finding himself even more beautiful after using a mortal's body is even more contradictory lol.

- A Saiyan when he transforms into a SSj either has gold or blue hair. The manga corrected it by having an explanation. When Ginyu accessed Goku's body or Vegeta allowed for Babidi to somewhat do the same, there were no alterations there either. You could say things like Zamasu fushed his ki into the saiyan transformation resulting him having this pink transformation.
Which was only explained in the manga, like I said. The anime made no attempt to explain why it was pink.

- Yes, but the moments where Zamasu was trying to mock him were intentionally shown to be just that: mocking. Trunks overpowering him only for him to get shocked is a problem with powerscaling and bad writing, not mocking. You, yourself said that the power scalling sucked yet you overlook this problems..



- That still doesn't make sense at all. Surface area doesn't mean anything, and his Kamehameha shouldn't overpower his strongest attack because he is weaker. Things like piercing and surface area don't matter in this type of argument though. Gohan as a SSj2 pushed away Cell's Kamehameha with a smaller one, so the whole surface area and piercing or whatever argument is already moot.
Why apply real life physics to a children's show? Especially when it never been done by the writers or Toriyama, which makes your argument not plausible at all, since the power scalling of this arc was terrible anyways, i think Goku able to
pierce through his attack because he is Goku makes much more sense.

- Zamasu comes off as a self-centric in the long run a boring villain, a better approch would be how they developed him like they did with Sensui, both hated humanity.

I dont like Zamasus motivation but IMO youre looking at it wrong.

The point is that in the end humanity will always be evil. No matter how much good individuals do there will always be those who cause destruction. He knows there can never be true peace and therefore humanity as a whole is flawed. He then imposes those general negatives onto individuals.

My point is did he always think like that? When did his motives really turn? Did he have or had conflicting thoughts about at one side mortals do good stuff and on the other side they do not? And why is that side of the coin not shown? if those answered cannot be answered he comes of as a underdeveloped character. And even if what you've stated is true, the anime did a poor job into conveying that to us.

Well I dont think it was extremely well written either so I'm not disagreeing it was executed poorly.

[Goten Retcon]

Some will tell you Future Trunks arc is the best in the series. That just shows you had bad the anime has been if the most contradictory arc in the entire DB franchise can be the best arc in Super.

But that's the anime.

If you read the manga, you'll see that Toyatomo has executed where Toei failed, and exceeded all expectation.

I notice some of the fandom only care about the next big baddie and the next big transformation, and the coolest new ki blast. I notice more people are concerned with flash, smoke and mirrors.

The manga not only delivers with its substance and consistency, but it has beautifully illustrated characters and layouts on each and every single panel.

Do yourself a favor OP and hit up viz.. media's website to read the manga.

[emperior]

Some will tell you Future Trunks arc is the best in the series. That just shows you had bad the anime has been if the most contradictory arc in the entire DB franchise can be the best arc in Super.

But that's the anime.

If you read the manga, you'll see that Toyatomo has executed where Toei failed, and exceeded all expectation.

I notice some of the fandom only care about the next big baddie and the next big transformation, and the coolest new ki blast. I notice more people are concerned with flash, smoke and mirrors.

The manga not only delivers with its substance and consistency, but it has beautifully illustrated characters and layouts on each and every single panel.

Do yourself a favor OP and hit up viz.. media's website to read the manga.

The manga is nowhere near as good as the anime. It has consistent art - that is all. I swear some people prefer it over the anime only because the anime version exists (which kind of compliments it).

In the manga Black is just a generic villain. Zamasu's motivation to steal Goku's body are futile and there's no mystery around Goku Black's true identity (which was one of the highlight of the arc in my opinion) and Goku doesn't even get to fight Black.
Also Goku pulls out mastered SSB out of his ass during the fight with Merged Zamasu, not to mention Vegeta SSJ2 being above SSJ Black doesn't make any sense and Vegeta beating Black just by using SSG is stupid considering after a senzu he still couldn't touch Black and it as stated he actually didn't get stronger after his training. Yet people complain about anime powerscaling.
The manga also wastes way too much time explaining things, but at least Toyotaro explains what happens even if he exaggerates with the explanations.
Though the manga also does some things right, but it's not as good as the anime in my opinion, and definitely not better.
The biggest problem of the anime is the fact they rushed it too much in the end.