The Future Trunks Arc Under a Critical Lens

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: under critical lens - Zamasu arc sucked ass (long read)

Post by precita » Wed May 24, 2017 8:19 pm

Honestly if people didn't like the Zamasu arc I don't know why you're still watching Super. It's been the highlight of Super so far (blows away the movie adaptions, was more interesting than the Champa tournament), and the upcoming Universal Survival arc still hasn't gotten to the tournament yet so it's hard to say if the current arc will turn out good by the time it ends.

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Re: under critical lens - Zamasu arc sucked ass (long read)

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Wed May 24, 2017 8:22 pm

perucho1990 wrote:If Black in the anime had the same personality as in the manga then the arc wouldve been a complete fail, and maybe on par with GT Arcs.

Black is one of the main reasons the arc wasnt a complete fail in all aspects, besides Miki performance as Zamasu.
If in the anime, Saga Future Trunks had the same explanations of the manga for things,the same Power Scale,had things like SSG for Vegeta (in the anime practically nothing new for him), among others, I'm sure the Saga would be much better.

Black / Zamasu's ideal was good, but after a while he only knew how to repeat the same things, when he merged even worse,Making it annoying,without exploring their motivations

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Re: under critical lens - Zamasu arc sucked ass (long read)

Post by perucho1990 » Wed May 24, 2017 8:50 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote:
If in the anime, Saga Future Trunks had the same explanations of the manga for things,the same Power Scale,had things like SSG for Vegeta (in the anime practically nothing new for him), among others, I'm sure the Saga would be much better.

Black / Zamasu's ideal was good, but after a while he only knew how to repeat the same things, when he merged even worse,Making it annoying,without exploring their motivations
They couldve still gave Trunks healing powers but not to the point he is reduced to just being a healer, Ikari couldve been explained that he unlocked it due to the Kaioshin ritual. Toei screwed up with the lack of explanations for certain stuff.

The main issue people prefer the anime version is because in the manga verison reeks of GT with the whole "Goku Time".

You didnt like Vegetas "IAM VEGETA-SAMA" moment?

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Re: under critical lens - Zamasu arc sucked ass (long read)

Post by Asura » Wed May 24, 2017 8:56 pm

Boo Machine wrote:
Zagacious wrote:
Well, the arguments defending super in general are very poor and are more like excuses than actual arguments, usually comes to one of these bs reasoning:

1. The episode was poor and nothing of consequence happened, but 'built character' just because a random character was in it, even though we didn't actually learn anything about said character, so it's okay
2. DBZ was worse in some way, so any amount of bs inconsistency in DBS is acceptable
3. Claiming the unnecessary padding/stretching out of episodes never happened, and acting like the episode actually had a meaning. (I see this all the time people trying to deny Pilaf was in like half of the Black Goku arc whenever someone complains about it). Well when you can skip half of the Black Goku arc without missing anything there's something wrong there
Regardless about how you feel about certain "excuses", the point is that a discussion takes two parties having a conversation about their point of views. Which cant happen if one side is brushing everything the other side is saying off as the whacky ramblings of a mad man,if they happen to not see things that way. It's just about treating the people you're speaking with, with respect.
It gets tiring when you have the same discussions over and over again and hear the same flimsy excuses over and over again. You can't have a discussion when one of the parties involved is in denial.

Whether you like the arc or not is purely up to opinion and debate and discussion of course, but factually speaking the arc still has problems just like any other arc or show or any other piece of media really, nothing's perfect. But when people make excuses for such problems or deny their existence, then there's no point to even having a discussion when one side absolutely refuses to admit that the arc has any faults. Like I just said, nothing is perfect, everything has faults, and to pretend otherwise is simply deluding yourself. And you (or someone else) might say "But I don't think the arc is perfect!" and that's great as long as you understand what the problems are. If so, nothing of what I'm saying applies to you (or someone else)

And as a precaution, I'm sure someone will try and take my words and spin them into me saying "My opinion is right, your opinion is wrong", but that's not what I'm trying to say. No one is wrong for liking or disliking the arc. But they are wrong for pretending its faults don't exist.

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Re: under critical lens - Zamasu arc sucked ass (long read)

Post by Boo Machine » Wed May 24, 2017 9:16 pm

Asura wrote:
It gets tiring when you have the same discussions over and over again and hear the same flimsy excuses over and over again. You can't have a discussion when one of the parties involved is in denial.

Whether you like the arc or not is purely up to opinion and debate and discussion of course, but factually speaking the arc still has problems just like any other arc or show or any other piece of media really, nothing's perfect. But when people make excuses for such problems or deny their existence, then there's no point to even having a discussion when one side absolutely refuses to admit that the arc has any faults. Like I just said, nothing is perfect, everything has faults, and to pretend otherwise is simply deluding yourself.

And as a precaution, I'm sure someone will try and take my words and spin them into me saying "My opinion is right, your opinion is wrong", but that's not what I'm trying to say. No one is wrong for liking or disliking the arc. But they are wrong for pretending its faults don't exist.

Well that goes for either side. Not good when one denies a problem but it's not good when the other also comes up with problems that aren't there. Not that I'm speaking about any particular instance, just speaking generally.

But even so, it doesn't hurt to listen as to why someone feels the way that they do. And you're right. If someone isn't interested in listening then it's probably best to ignore whoever that is. But I feel that when someone says something like " watch someone defend the opposite side with flimsy or whacky excuses" that it doesn't really invite any type of discussion and that people are wrong to even try. Maybe I'm wrong but that's how those statements come off to me.

And even if the opposing side is wrong , it doesn't do anybody any good by treating them like they're speaking nonsense and making "excuses" especially before they've even gotten a chance to speak. Even if we may feel like people will bend over backwards for certain views.
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Re: under critical lens - Zamasu arc sucked ass (long read)

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Wed May 24, 2017 9:16 pm

perucho1990 wrote:
TheSaiyanGod wrote:
If in the anime, Saga Future Trunks had the same explanations of the manga for things,the same Power Scale,had things like SSG for Vegeta (in the anime practically nothing new for him), among others, I'm sure the Saga would be much better.

Black / Zamasu's ideal was good, but after a while he only knew how to repeat the same things, when he merged even worse,Making it annoying,without exploring their motivations
They couldve still gave Trunks healing powers but not to the point he is reduced to just being a healer, Ikari couldve been explained that he unlocked it due to the Kaioshin ritual. Toei screwed up with the lack of explanations for certain stuff.

The main issue people prefer the anime version is because in the manga verison reeks of GT with the whole "Goku Time".

You didnt like Vegetas "IAM VEGETA-SAMA" moment?
I would prefer Trunks to get the SSB. He would be fully capable of achieving the transformation if the saga were more elongated and focused on his training. He is a hybrid and possesses great potential, it would not be difficult if he trained with Whis. But an explanation for the SSJ Rage and healing powers It would also be interesting.
In the manga in fact he is not so strong, even helping in other ways, but I think this has made his power more coherent.If the Saga was longer, they could exploit their strength more

I admit that there were some epic moments in this Saga in the anime, and when Vegeta destroys Black and says "I am the prince of the Saiyans, Vegeta -Sama!" Was certainly one of the most epic. But I felt like I was just a fanservice because shortly after Black pulls out a nonsense power (clones), spoiling the moment. It would be better if he really created a strategy after entering RoSaT as he did in the manga (switching between SSG and SSB), and showing something new like the SSG transformation

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Re: under critical lens - Zamasu arc sucked ass (long read)

Post by Artorias » Wed May 24, 2017 9:24 pm

It's hilarious how Zamasu and Black are technically the same person, but we all hate Zamasu and love Black. Just goes to show that they really are two distinct characters. They really did do great job with Black. He's one of the best things to come out of the DB franchise in some time.

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Re: under critical lens - Zamasu arc sucked ass (long read)

Post by Yomi » Wed May 24, 2017 10:44 pm

I still liked every scene with Black,
and episode 65 is very atmospheric to me.

but I'm pretty shallow with how I view the show.
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Re: under critical lens - Zamasu arc sucked ass (long read)

Post by The gr » Wed May 24, 2017 11:38 pm

perucho1990 wrote: The main issue people prefer the anime version is because in the manga verison reeks of GT with the whole "Goku Time".?
There's so much wrong with this comment,the manga is not Goku time because every character got decent screentime and usage in the cast, gowasu, Bulma, kibito,shin,mai,Trunks and Vegeta are all revelant to the plot as Goku,hell Trunks and vegeta have way more screentime and line than Goku,so no,the manga is nothing like gt
    pls do your self a favor and​ re read the manga properly this time, but one thing I'll agree on, black was better in the Anime despite having a meh motivation
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    Re: under critical lens - Zamasu arc sucked ass (long read)

    Post by perucho1990 » Thu May 25, 2017 12:04 am

    The gr wrote: There's so much wrong with this comment,the manga is not Goku time because every character got decent screentime and usage in the cast, gowasu, Bulma, kibito,shin,mai,Trunks and Vegeta are all revelant to the plot as Goku,hell Trunks and vegeta have way more screentime and line than Goku,so no,the manga is nothing like gt
      pls do your self a favor and​ re read the manga properly this time, but one thing I'll agree on, black was better in the Anime despite having a meh motivation
      You didnt get my point, the main reason why some dislike the manga is because Goku is facing Merged Zamasu and not Trunks, and the whole perfected SSJB happening out of nowhere, and made Vegeta training look completely pointless. Besides you have non Godtier Base Goku and Vegeta surviving blows from Merged Zamasu, which is Fairy Tail/Bleach level of stupid.

      Gowasu isnt that relevant in the manga, he acts more like a senile old man, in the anime at least he got to explain some of the confusing stuff.

      Shin is the only character that got better treatment in the manga than the anime.

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      Re: under critical lens - Zamasu arc sucked ass (long read)

      Post by Shuby » Thu May 25, 2017 3:48 am

      Cipher wrote:Under a more critical lens, that journey now has far greater meaning than it ever did in the original run because the arc posits that the worthiness of Trunks' actions is inherent, rather than dependent upon a series of favorable outcomes outside of his control as in the Cell arc. What he does is valuable for the lives he touches, personal happy ending or not. It's the first time, in fact, the series ever dares leave its audience with such a lesson.

      Trunks' time travel is one of the elements that allows Zamasu to carry out his plans, which both Black and Future Zamasu taunt him with, but in the face of their (largely unfair, but somewhat accurate) accusations, Trunks stands up for the morality of his actions regardless of how they've chosen to use the world he created. Once his timeline is erased, at his lowest ebb of self-confidence, in which he's bemoaning his inability to save the world his Gohan entrusted him with, he's seen off by a version of Gohan who, thanks to his actions, has gotten to live the life his couldn't. He's seen off by Vegeta, by Goku, by Bulma—all people who can and should be dead, but are alive and thriving thanks to him. The goodness and optimism of his actions, imperfect a solution as they may offer, carry over into his and Mai's decision to introduce the same cosmic second chance to the friends they knew in their future. The "Hope!!" on the side of that time machine has never meant more than when it's presented as a shorthand for all imperfect, inconvenient ways of doing what good one can.

      The arc is a rocky, rocky thing, as executed in the anime, but its ending is among the more worthwhile bits of the entire meta-series. On the whole, and especially through its finale, the arc manages to take Trunks, who exists more or less a plot device and catalyst for action in the original run, and turn him into a poignant character all his own.

      If anything, my stance on the storyline is that it's a great ending in want of a substantially better arc.
      I see some value to your comment/opinion but i respectfully disagree :)
      Boo Machine wrote:Well that goes for either side. Not good when one denies a problem but it's not good when the other also comes up with problems that aren't there. Not that I'm speaking about any particular instance, just speaking generally.

      But even so, it doesn't hurt to listen as to why someone feels the way that they do. And you're right. If someone isn't interested in listening then it's probably best to ignore whoever that is. But I feel that when someone says something like " watch someone defend the opposite side with flimsy or whacky excuses" that it doesn't really invite any type of discussion and that people are wrong to even try. Maybe I'm wrong but that's how those statements come off to me.

      And even if the opposing side is wrong , it doesn't do anybody any good by treating them like they're speaking nonsense and making "excuses" especially before they've even gotten a chance to speak. Even if we may feel like people will bend over backwards for certain views.
      Why not the side that defends Super have to come with good counter-arguments other than , stop watching it then or coming with some headcanon explanation which wasn't even explained by the show itself or Toriyama... You can't deny the fact that there are lots of people overlooking the problems.

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      Re: under critical lens - Zamasu arc sucked ass (long read)

      Post by Shuby » Thu May 25, 2017 4:02 am

      But wait i can go on:
      -SSj Blue Goku's full power Kamehameha overcomes Merged Zamasu's most powerful attack?
      -Why is Zamasu not regenerating from it? This mortal body clashing with immortal body shit is fucking nonsense: We've had Roshi consume the elixir of the Immortal Phoenix which at this point is probably a forgotten plot point, we've had King Piccolowish for eternal youth, and we've had both 17 and 18 be able to live forever thanks to the artificial ki generators that Gero outfitted them with...why in fuck's name should immortality granted by the Super Dragon Balls not be compatible with a mortal body?
      -Present Zamasu's death was very awkward: Beerus catches his hand, it elicits no reaction from Zamasu, there is a slight prolonged zoom in sequence and then he just dies.
      -Gowasu needs to stop saying Zamasu, he literally has no character.
      -Toei still can't properly edit this show, resulting in very weird and off-putting reactions (like the beginning of the ep, when the 4 are looking at him sternly, Zamasu says "Son Goku" and for some inexplicable reason Goku replies with a "huh?" even though he knows why they're there)
      -Trunks trying to cheer Future Trunks up is so contrived and generic: "You can't protect Mai like this", as if Future Trunks needs your help...you know what he did after he realized he couldn't beat Cell, he got OVER it. Its such a shit attempt to make Trunks relevant.
      -Zamasu dying causes some questions to arise: Kaioshin of U7's Planet of the Kais was in a world above that of the afterlife. When Old Kai died, he was still able to be there, as was Vegeta before Porunga revived him. Zamasu was killed at their home, so why isn't he still there? The fact that he turned "evil" could mean that he doesn't keep his body but I highly doubt Toei or Toriyama remember, not to mention FnF completely fucks that plot point over. Is Zamasu's and Gowasu's home even in the
      afterlife?
      -Zamasu and Black are criticizing Trunks for using time travel to change the past, when they themselves killed the gods that upheld that law? Not to mention that its possible that if the time loop shit with Black isn't true, that you USED the Time Ring to travel to the past and kill Goku and his family?
      -Mai tries to shoot Zamasu after Trunks seemingly defeats Black with the Galick Gun, I can't
      -Bulma trying to stop Zamasu is so fucking terrible, and the anime doesn't show 5 minutes passing well a la Resurrection 'F'

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      Re: under critical lens - Zamasu arc sucked ass (long read)

      Post by Boo Machine » Thu May 25, 2017 4:17 am

      Shuby wrote:
      Why not the side that defends Super have to come with good counter-arguments other than , stop watching it then or coming with some headcanon explanation which wasn't even explained by the show itself or Toriyama... You can't deny the fact that there are lots of people overlooking the problems.
      Well that depends. Are they saying something that is actually not a good counter-argument or do you just see it that way because you don't agree with it? What would you consider a good enough Counter-argument? Maybe the other side considers your views the same way you view theirs. That's why it's important to listen and not wall yourself off from discussion.

      I never denied any such things. But as I said, this goes on in both sides. But speaking about sides is starting to feel like there are two groups of people and one side HAS to be the wrong one. Which is not the case. There are merits to everyones views to some capacity. Maybe there are some problems. Maybe the problems aren't as nearly as big as one might think. Point is if you want people to take you're criticisms or praise seriously you can't turn confrontational at the very idea of someone disagreeing with you.

      If you want to talk about how bad the Zamasu arc is, then that's all good friend. But don't shut out everyone who doesn't agree like what they have to say isn't worth listening to.
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      Re: under critical lens - Zamasu arc sucked ass (long read)

      Post by Shuby » Thu May 25, 2017 5:06 am

      Boo Machine wrote:
      Shuby wrote:
      Why not the side that defends Super have to come with good counter-arguments other than , stop watching it then or coming with some headcanon explanation which wasn't even explained by the show itself or Toriyama... You can't deny the fact that there are lots of people overlooking the problems.
      Well that depends. Are they saying something that is actually not a good counter-argument or do you just see it that way because you don't agree with it? What would you consider a good enough Counter-argument? Maybe the other side considers your views the same way you view theirs. That's why it's important to listen and not wall yourself off from discussion.

      I never denied any such things. But as I said, this goes on in both sides. But speaking about sides is starting to feel like there are two groups of people and one side HAS to be the wrong one. Which is not the case. There are merits to everyones views to some capacity. Maybe there are some problems. Maybe the problems aren't as nearly as big as one might think. Point is if you want people to take you're criticisms or praise seriously you can't turn confrontational at the very idea of someone disagreeing with you.

      If you want to talk about how bad the Zamasu arc is, then that's all good friend. But don't shut out everyone who doesn't agree like what they have to say isn't worth listening to.
      There are not sides, If something is bad, or done wrong, it should be pointed out so it doesn't keep happening. I love Dragon Ball, I am critical of it, because I love it. I expect more from it.

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      Re: under critical lens - Zamasu arc sucked ass (long read)

      Post by Boo Machine » Thu May 25, 2017 5:09 am

      Shuby wrote:
      Boo Machine wrote:
      Shuby wrote:
      Why not the side that defends Super have to come with good counter-arguments other than , stop watching it then or coming with some headcanon explanation which wasn't even explained by the show itself or Toriyama... You can't deny the fact that there are lots of people overlooking the problems.
      Well that depends. Are they saying something that is actually not a good counter-argument or do you just see it that way because you don't agree with it? What would you consider a good enough Counter-argument? Maybe the other side considers your views the same way you view theirs. That's why it's important to listen and not wall yourself off from discussion.

      I never denied any such things. But as I said, this goes on in both sides. But speaking about sides is starting to feel like there are two groups of people and one side HAS to be the wrong one. Which is not the case. There are merits to everyones views to some capacity. Maybe there are some problems. Maybe the problems aren't as nearly as big as one might think. Point is if you want people to take you're criticisms or praise seriously you can't turn confrontational at the very idea of someone disagreeing with you.

      If you want to talk about how bad the Zamasu arc is, then that's all good friend. But don't shut out everyone who doesn't agree like what they have to say isn't worth listening to.
      There are not sides, If something is bad, or done wrong, it should be pointed out so it doesn't keep happening. I love Dragon Ball, I am critical of it, because I love it. I expect more from it.
      As do we all, friend.
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      Re: under critical lens - Zamasu arc sucked ass (long read)

      Post by GodKaio-Ken » Thu May 25, 2017 7:46 am

      I do think the arc was poorly written in certsin parts, but Black was just such a cool character in the anime I overlooked most of it.
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      Re: under critical lens - Zamasu arc sucked ass (long read)

      Post by kayojin » Thu May 25, 2017 1:18 pm

      it starts out good, but they made a lot of mistakes (fusing black/zamasu, ssj rage, etc)

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      Re: under critical lens - Zamasu arc sucked ass (long read)

      Post by Lord Beerus » Thu May 25, 2017 2:15 pm

      I've explained in detail in the past why I love the Future Trunks/Zamasu arc, so I'll just rephrase myself:

      THE PLOT:
      Okay, lest's just get the nonsense out of the way... the power scaling is so fucked up, there was never an explanation for whatever the hell Future Trunks Raging SSJ transformation was supposed to be, the constant time hopping gets old real fast, the time paradox origin of Goku Black is ridiculous and nonsensical and the Genki Dama sword is absolute bollocks. However, the good vastly outweigh the bad, in my opinion. I was dismissive about the idea of "Evil Goku", but Goku Black delivered in spades. Zamasu was a fantastically written character as a whole and the best main villain Dragon Ball has ever created. The development of Future Trunks was fantastic and how he integrated with the cast and the new members of the central cast was wonderful. Episode 66 will always remain controversial, but for me, it was the most entertaining episode of Dragon Ball ever. Even though it had so many moments of nonsense it was the right kind of nonsense. Like the "put your brain at the door and enjoy the fireworks" kind. I loved every moment of this episode, and for me, it remains Super best showing yet. And the ending was a total shocker but was also heartbreaking and surprisingly heartwarming and made me go through emotions that I had never gone through before when watching Dragon Ball.

      THE ENDING:
      The ending is brilliant. But some context is needed to emphasis and how well the ending works.

      Future Trunks story is tragic in the sense that Gohan went alone to fight the Androids, only for 17 to reveal he didn't use even half of his power the last they fought. This would further indicate that in all the times Trunks and Gohan have battle the Androids, they never had a chance at wining. This is further compounded when Trunks take on the Androids himself and ends up in the hospital for several days. Future Trunks was essentially doomed to fail at every attempt to kill the Androids. The Androids would eventually either found out where he lives and kill him and Bulma, or Trunks would die in battle. It's tragic in every sense because Trunks could essentially do nothing to save Gohan, his family or the human race, unless he took the gamble of going back in time. And that arguably made the situation even worse. He essentially died twice and unwittingly created the events of the Cell arc in his last ditch attempt to save his world. It gets even worse when Goku Black appears, as any peace that Earth had after the Androids and Cell were killed is not long lasting. Goku Black restarts Future Trunks' nightmare world and the horror begins again. But it's the final episode of the Zamasu/Future Trunks arc, that really bring everything together so wonderfully.

      With the events of the previous episode in the Future Trunks arc, with Future Trunks symbolically using the energy of all the remaining humans to defeat Zamasu. you would have thought Dragon Ball would follow down the same path is has always done with the heroes coming out on top and everything being restored, but... no. All of the Earthlings in Future Trunks world die apart from him and Mai and ultimately his entire timeline is wiped out. Everything about humanity banding together and using their hope and belief as strength to live another day was ultimately not enough.

      Zamasu is dead but the damage he's done couldn't be fixed and every human, except Mai and Future Trunks, from Future Trunks' world is dead. And top of this Future Trunks loses his entire timeline. The only real solace is that Future Trunks and Mai will never have to deal with this kind of shit again. Any hope or peace that Future Trunks has in his world doesn't last for long, and in the end, he loses everything has to start a new life in a completely new timeline. This ending of Future Trunks was so heavy handed for Dragon Ball, and this all felt so un-Dragon Ball, and for Toriyama/Toei to go down the route they did with the Zamasu/Future Trunks arc, I have to give nothing but major prop for him doing so. I don't think we will ever see an ending to an arc as unique as this ever again. It's a true representation that sometimes even when you give it your all, it just isn't enough.

      However, despite the hardships Future Trunks deals with in his broken and sad upbringing, and seemingly fighting a losing battle, he never really became cynical, he still maintained the hope that humanity could survive and fought for many years never losing hope, even when it seemed obvious he couldn't prevail. I mean, the whole reason Future Trunks went back in time in the first place was because he and Bulma came to realization that with their own devices they couldn't defeat the Androids.I'm sure a lot o people in Future Trunks shoes would have cracked like an egg under extreme scenarios. But some people have the will to carry after hitting rock bottom and losing it all and other don't. And Future Trunks has that resolve. His character is based around his insane determination and optimism. After all is said and done, he's lost everything and is certainly upset over it, but he knows that he can live another live and create happy memories even if the world he will be doing it isn't his own. Just the fact he can live a relatively happy life is enough for Future Trunks'.

      And even after all the misery created by the Androids, Cell, Goku Black and Zamasu, and while Future Trunks lamented the fact he could protect his world, we still have wonderful the moment Gohan rushing to say goodbye to Future Trunks and wishing him to take care of himself with. And Future Trunks responding enthusiastically with tears in his eyes, while thinking of Future Gohan, as he leaves.

      The ending wonderfully encapsulates Future Trunks' story: It began with tragedy, was raised to hope and ended ultimately in tragedy with some kind of promise for a new kid of hope. It's all so painfully bittersweet but extremely fitting.

      And it makes all the bullshit that happened in the previous episode null and void. The whole Genki Dama Sword business made things even worse when you think about. Because is lead to Zamasu's immortal soul merging with universe in Future Trunks' timeline and killing all of the remaining earthlings and everything in Future Trunks timeline being wiped out as a result to prevent Zamasu's essence from spreading to other timelines. So, ironically, if anything, the Genki Dama Sword moment is actually a subtle deconstruction of the "Deus ex Machina" plot device because it only served to create even more issues instead of solving them, like a proper "Deus ex Machina" plot device would. Zamasu may have died at the hand of what was basically "Deus ex Machina", but he also technically succeeded through it. So... it's actually a deconstruction, a reconstruction and subversion of the plot device.

      THE VILLAIN(S):
      Zamasu is an awesome villain.

      People often complain that Zamasu had no real backstory, but I disagree with that. While he was shown to be a Kaioshin, Zamasu cared greatly enough for the development and prosperity of the universe, that Zamasu often questioned the worth of mortals and didn't believe in their ability to handle conflict as they were prone to commence war in a repeated cycle. And given the events that transpired in the main story, he has a very valid point. The Kaioshin of Universe 7 stood by and watched Freeza terrorize most of the galaxy for God knows how long before Goku and Future Trunks took care of him. It's made even worse by the fact the Kaioshin were strong enough to defeat Freeza with one blow, but they still stood by and did nothing. Then you take into consideration that the events of the Android/Cell arc and the Majin Boo arc happened on purely through the arrogance and selfishness of the main cast. He also did not agree with how the Kaioshin would not be more directly involved in mortals' actions like the Gods of Destruction, and scoffs at the idea that mortals can be trusted to handle important matters, let alone rival the might of gods.

      The moment with him him and Gowasu travelling to the Babarians world was huge turning point in his character. Because if he ever needed more fuel to add to his argument of how dangerous and unruly mortals could be, that was it. Zamasu claimed that they should destroy the planet because they will never learn to be civilized, to which Gowasu is shocked by this response and in an attempt to prove him wrong, Gowasu and Zamasu travel 1000 years to the future, only to find out that the civilisation has not advanced from the small culture it originally was, and the race as whole still remained hostile, angry and aggressive race, as the same two of the Babarians are seen fighting. And just to add the cherry on top, one of the Babarians tries to attack Zamasu and Gowasu at first glance. But what made scene all the more poignant was the look of shock on Zamasu face after he cut the Babarian in half. He didn't evilly grin and manically laugh like a person that would be jumping down the route of evil would. He was just seem more taken aback that his natural instinct would lead him to do such a thing even in the extreme circumstance. It's those little detail that may not seem to matter but they really do so much for the perspective of his character and story.

      Meeting Goku was where his character officially went off the deep end. After meeting Goku however and losing to him quickly in a sparring match, his views radically changed and his distrustful nature towards mortals only grew. Annoyed at Goku's carefree attitude and lack of respect, his distaste for the gods not quelling the dangerous nature of mortals evolved to a radicalism-level. Shocked at how a mortal like Goku could gain a power rivaling gods, let alone even obtaining such power, and so recklessly challenge a God and defeat him easily, Zamasu came to sternly believe that mortal life by nature is an evil.

      Goku Black and Future Zamasu is the embodiment of Zamasu basically giving into the his dark side and goes through with his plan to be a more active Kaioshin and try set right what he thinks has been done wrong by other Kiaoshin standing back and letting mortal create all kinds of havoc. He is extremely sadistic, as well as savage in battle and also relishes the opportunity to test his new power or abilities, but also shown to be very pragmatic is his way of achieving his Zero Mortals Plan, never lost his composure when things didn't go his way, was also so formal with his speech pattern, and never wasted an opportunity to display his superiority complex and his plan to create a utopia by eliminating all mortals. But what was so unique Goku Black was that, despite his appearance, he wasn't necessarily "Evil Goku" to even begin with. Goku Black was his own unique character with his own wonderful quirks. And he never wasted an opportunity to display his superiority complex and his fixation on beauty. Plus, Nozawa fucking killed it as Goku Black.

      Merged Zamasu is basically the accumulation of all the arrogance and self-entitlement of Goku Black and Future Zamasu. He literally sees himself as the embodiment of justice and having delusions of grandeur. His belief that he is truly this supreme God of justice that will create an new utopia for the universe even drive him to tears, as his feeling of responsibility to set everything right that he thinks is wrong overwhelms him emotionally. Of course, once Vegetto and later Future Trunks prove to be too much of a match for him, Merged Zamasu is reduced to nothing more the equivalent of a deranged madman swinging around a axe and butcher's knife at the same time. Constantly screaming and attacking with more savagery and fury than before and grinning like a psychopath, while making outrageous declarations of Godhood. It was at that point that Zamasu's descent into darkness had gone full circle, as he had officially become just as destructive, violent, aggressive and unhinged as the mortals he vilified and believed the universe would be better without. Of course, the dramatic irony of the situation never became apparent to him, as Zamasu still saw himself as the saviour the universe needed and wanted. Even in his death, his immortal soul and conscious spread across the world, the universe and even throughout timelines. Showing that even with no physically body to carry out his deeds, his spiritual body still feels compelled to become one with order and justice. If there's one thing you can't deny Zamasu had, it was dedication to his cause.

      I think some people don't have a proper grasp of Zamasu's goals or motives, because Zamasu is actually a very complicated character. At the start, you see a young, bashful and down-to-earth Kaioshin who ultimately calls a spade a spade and knows of just how dangerous mortals can be and openly questions the system that he is a part of. He feels, given the role he has, that he doesn't have the true freedom of doing enough to curb the continuing cycle of violence that is tarnishing the imagine of the universe he is meant to protect and look over. Zamasu was clearing getting tired of being a bystander and actually wanted to be an active role as a Kaioshin and instead of just watching mayhem spontaneously unfold before him, and that is what makes his fall from grace all the more raw and amazing to watch. He had good intentions for the sake of his universe but the fashion of which he went about them became more extreme with how events would later unfold with him visiting the Babarians planet and encountering Goku. It's what makes him quite an awesome villain, and even to a degree, quite a tragic character. Because he wasn't really evil to begin with. He was just jaded and disillusioned by what he saw and what he knew and took matters into his own hands.

      So... yeah. Zamasu is awesome. He is a fantastically written villain, and has many layers to him and which make him, in my humble opinion, the best written antagonist and overall character the franchise has ever produced.

      OVERALL THOUGHTS:
      The arc has some major issues but it's Dragon Ball's most mature arc by leaps and bounds and, in my opinion, the one the finest cases of storytelling in the franchise. It's not the "Best arc in the franchise", as I originally thought after watching the arc the first time around, but the Future Trunks/Zamasu arc still kicks major ass after repeated re-viewings and is among some of the best arcs in all of Dragon Ball. Although, I do have to say that re-watching the arc has done it same favors but it has also really highlighted its glaring problems I already had with the arc. Nonetheless, I have a hard time thinking how Super will top this.

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      TheMikado
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      Re: under critical lens - Zamasu arc sucked ass (long read)

      Post by TheMikado » Thu May 25, 2017 2:42 pm

      Dbzfan94 wrote:
      perucho1990 wrote:If Black in the anime had the same personality as in the manga then the arc wouldve been a complete fail, and maybe on par with GT Arcs.

      Black is one of the main reasons the arc wasnt a complete fail in all aspects, besides Miki performance as Zamasu.
      Definitely agree here. Anime Black was the only good part about the arc imo.
      I agree as well. Man I hate this arc with a vengeance.

      precita
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      Re: under critical lens - Zamasu arc sucked ass (long read)

      Post by precita » Thu May 25, 2017 5:35 pm

      Why do you guys watch Super if you dislike more than half the show then? If you don't count the movie adaptions and don't like the Zamasu arc...what's left? A just ok to mediocre Champa tournament, tons of fillers/slice of life episodes and an upcoming tournament that didn't even start yet? I mean there's literally nothing else besides the slice of life episodes.

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