Does the Saiyan Beyond God exist?

[szopman]

I follow the Manga canon, and in the manga, Goku achieves SS God with the ritual and retains the ability to achieve the form, without absorbing anything in base form. He only fough Beerus as a SS God.

So, no, in the Manga, Saiyan beyond God doesn't exist.

It goes: Base < SS < SS God < SS Blue < Perfected SS Blue.

If you only follow the manga canon, how would you explain the fact that Goku uses SbG in RoF manga ?

That is not even part of the Super's manga...

But still, It's an official RoF manga, written by AT and drawn by Toyo. It's as official/canon as DBS manga.

And for those of you who say that SbG doesn;t appeare in this manga, here you have:

[Misirius]

It's a Manga, but it's not DBS's Manga adaptation, with Toyotaro's continuity.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

It's a Manga, but it's not DBS's Manga adaptation, with Toyotaro's continuity.

I gotta agree here. It's like trying to use that old movie pamphlet for the anime, or the current manga with the anime, or the movies with the manga, etc.

It just doesn't work, because these are all separate versions of the same general story, and thus never intersect and shouldn't be used in conjunction with each other.

[Shinda Forever]

I have no doubt sayans will have power up after power up and they will surpass the gods of destruction by far. That's Toriyama for you.

[Marlowe89]

It's like trying to use that old movie pamphlet for the anime

That "old" movie pamphlet doesn't do anything except lend further credence to Goku's dialogue in the anime, the only thing that is made absolutely explicit in regards to the nature of the Blue transformation.

It's an enormous logical leap to assume just because there are different versions of the story that should somehow necessitate that even basic descriptions have changed when they were never implied to, or that the similarities between mediums should be disregarded in favor of pointing out their differences. It's true that Goku never absorbed Super Saiyan God in the manga, and bringing up the (separate) RoF manga doesn't prove that he did -- however, it does not follow from this fact that mediums can't be cross-referenced if they happen to share certain elements and ideas.

[szopman]

It's a Manga, but it's not DBS's Manga adaptation, with Toyotaro's continuity.

But it's still official canon DB manga, developed by Toriyama.

The main question of the thread is if SbG exist. And RoF manga is one the proofs that it does. I don't get this kind of people. I mean, someone writes "I only follow manga canon" but not 'RoF" manga. I'd understand if this manga wasn't canon, wasn't made by official DB manga creators. But RoF manga was made by Toriyama and Toyatoro. The creators of DBS manga. And boths manga are canon, and are official manga version of anime events. And it takes place in the same version of this universe.
I understand that since Universe 6 Saga, the idea of this transformation was retconned, but still, this form exists in RoF movie and manga (I don't remember now if it's in tv series).

[ekrolo2]

It's a Manga, but it's not DBS's Manga adaptation, with Toyotaro's continuity.

But it's still official canon DB manga, developed by Toriyama.

The main question of the thread is if SbG exist. And RoF manga is one the proofs that it does. I don't get this kind of people. I mean, someone writes "I only follow manga canon" but not 'RoF" manga. I'd understand if this manga wasn't canon, wasn't made by official DB manga creators. But RoF manga was made by Toriyama and Toyatoro. The creators of DBS manga. And boths manga are canon, and are official manga version of anime events. And it takes place in the same version of this universe.
I understand that since Universe 6 Saga, the idea of this transformation was retconned, but still, this form exists in RoF movie and manga (I don't remember now if it's in tv series).

Toriyama also worked on the movies and now their rules don't apply to the manga or the anime. Toriyama's stance changed from "Goku and Vegeta aren't too far off from Beerus" to "They're gonna be shit tier to Beerus for a good long while" and the F manga was written with the former mindset.

Saiyan Beyond God is Goku & Vegeta having SSGod itself or a power comparable to it in their Base forms, which flat out doesn't work in the Super manga since SSGod is a transformation they can lip on and off.

[szopman]

It's a Manga, but it's not DBS's Manga adaptation, with Toyotaro's continuity.

But it's still official canon DB manga, developed by Toriyama.

The main question of the thread is if SbG exist. And RoF manga is one the proofs that it does. I don't get this kind of people. I mean, someone writes "I only follow manga canon" but not 'RoF" manga. I'd understand if this manga wasn't canon, wasn't made by official DB manga creators. But RoF manga was made by Toriyama and Toyatoro. The creators of DBS manga. And boths manga are canon, and are official manga version of anime events. And it takes place in the same version of this universe.
I understand that since Universe 6 Saga, the idea of this transformation was retconned, but still, this form exists in RoF movie and manga (I don't remember now if it's in tv series).

Toriyama also worked on the movies and now their rules don't apply to the manga or the anime. Toriyama's stance changed from "Goku and Vegeta aren't too far off from Beerus" to "They're gonna be shit tier to Beerus for a good long while" and the F manga was written with the former mindset.

Saiyan Beyond God is Goku & Vegeta having SSGod itself or a power comparable to it in their Base forms, which flat out doesn't work in the Super manga since SSGod is a transformation they can lip on and off.

RoF movie and MANGA is canon. RoF manga is the same level of canonicity as DBS manga. Do you really think that both mangas, based on the same show/movies are set in separate variants of the story ? Do you think that they don't consider their RoF manga part of the DBS story? Why do think there's no DBS RoF saga? Because they already showed the events in RoF manga. And the SbG idea was simply retconned, as the vision changed. But still, this doesn't mean the transformation itself doesn't exist, cause it was clearly shown in both movie and manga which are official canon source.

[ekrolo2]

But it's still official canon DB manga, developed by Toriyama.

The main question of the thread is if SbG exist. And RoF manga is one the proofs that it does. I don't get this kind of people. I mean, someone writes "I only follow manga canon" but not 'RoF" manga. I'd understand if this manga wasn't canon, wasn't made by official DB manga creators. But RoF manga was made by Toriyama and Toyatoro. The creators of DBS manga. And boths manga are canon, and are official manga version of anime events. And it takes place in the same version of this universe.
I understand that since Universe 6 Saga, the idea of this transformation was retconned, but still, this form exists in RoF movie and manga (I don't remember now if it's in tv series).

Toriyama also worked on the movies and now their rules don't apply to the manga or the anime. Toriyama's stance changed from "Goku and Vegeta aren't too far off from Beerus" to "They're gonna be shit tier to Beerus for a good long while" and the F manga was written with the former mindset.

Saiyan Beyond God is Goku & Vegeta having SSGod itself or a power comparable to it in their Base forms, which flat out doesn't work in the Super manga since SSGod is a transformation they can lip on and off.

RoF movie and MANGA is canon. RoF manga is the same level of canonicity as DBS manga. Do you really think that both mangas, based on the same show/movies are set in separate variants of the story ? Do you think that they don't consider their RoF manga part of the DBS story? Why do think there's no DBS RoF saga? Because they already showed the events in RoF manga. And the SbG idea was simply retconned, as the vision changed. But still, this doesn't mean the transformation itself doesn't exist, cause it was clearly shown in both movie and manga which are official canon source.

The movies clearly don't count for shit anymore since the manga and anime have gone out of their way to contradict them in many more ways than simply if Goku has SSGod power in Base or not, you simply cannot tell me that the THREE versions of Battle of Gods that exist and fundamentally contradict one another in several ways all count anymore than you can say the F movie counts just as much as the F manga or F the arc.

And yes, I do think you can reasonably say the F manga exists separately of the Super one, we've already got three different continuities that were launched between three different formats all the span of 2 years, why's another off shoot suddenly a ridiculous thing for people to wrap their heads around?

The only way the manga of F and Super can work is if you arbitrarily say that Goku & Vegeta has empowered Base forms and Blue and then, through training, lose the powerful Base form but regain the golden SS line and SSGod as separate things. Which is really fucking dumb since the empowered Base form lets you do EVERYTHING the golden SS forms and SSGod can by default so why downgrade yourself like this?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

You know what I just realized? That old movie pamphlet stated that Goku and Vegeta have to learn to control their godly power and transform into SS to achieve SSB.

Guess what Whis teaches the two of them in the anime? To learn to control their godly power, specified to be via not letting their Ki leak out. Guess what form has great Ki control? SSB. Guess what this means? SSB is a Saiyan who has learned to control their godly power by not letting it leak out and then turning SS.

Now, this doesn't necessarily mean that not letting their Ki leak out in base form automatically puts them at god-level, that's just them gaining control of their godly power. It's doing this, then turning SS, that puts them beyond the level of gods, gods like SSG Goku when he was fought Beerrus, SSB.

Of course, as the anime shows, they can also do this by turning SS, then controlling their godly power. Either order seems to do the trick.

===

Based on the above along with the current power-scaling, I deduce that Saiyan Beyond God is the singular base form of a Saiyan who has made the power of SSG his own, not necessarily as strong as SSG, just that the form's power is now their power, and that they must control it by not letting their Ki leak out in conjunction with the SS form to create SSB.

This state is like Gohan's Ultimate power, if one goes with the interpretation that his base form in RoF was at or above Piccolo's level. The actual state of SSG fizzled out, but Goku held on to its power in all of his forms, so he's still more powerful than ever before, just not as strong as SSG. With training from Whis, he taps into the pure, unfiltered power of SSG once again with SSB, like how Gohan needed training to re-access Ultimate's power even though he was stronger than ever before besides the state.

[OLKv3]

I think it still exists. Goku has been doing powerful things as base and normal SSJ

[szopman]

Toriyama also worked on the movies and now their rules don't apply to the manga or the anime. Toriyama's stance changed from "Goku and Vegeta aren't too far off from Beerus" to "They're gonna be shit tier to Beerus for a good long while" and the F manga was written with the former mindset.

Saiyan Beyond God is Goku & Vegeta having SSGod itself or a power comparable to it in their Base forms, which flat out doesn't work in the Super manga since SSGod is a transformation they can lip on and off.

RoF movie and MANGA is canon. RoF manga is the same level of canonicity as DBS manga. Do you really think that both mangas, based on the same show/movies are set in separate variants of the story ? Do you think that they don't consider their RoF manga part of the DBS story? Why do think there's no DBS RoF saga? Because they already showed the events in RoF manga. And the SbG idea was simply retconned, as the vision changed. But still, this doesn't mean the transformation itself doesn't exist, cause it was clearly shown in both movie and manga which are official canon source.

The movies clearly don't count for shit anymore since the manga and anime have gone out of their way to contradict them in many more ways than simply if Goku has SSGod power in Base or not, you simply cannot tell me that the THREE versions of Battle of Gods that exist and fundamentally contradict one another in several ways all count anymore than you can say the F movie counts just as much as the F manga or F the arc.

And yes, I do think you can reasonably say the F manga exists separately of the Super one, we've already got three different continuities that were launched between three different formats all the span of 2 years, why's another off shoot suddenly a ridiculous thing for people to wrap their heads around?

The only way the manga of F and Super can work is if you arbitrarily say that Goku & Vegeta has empowered Base forms and Blue and then, through training, lose the powerful Base form but regain the golden SS line and SSGod as separate things. Which is really fucking dumb since the empowered Base form lets you do EVERYTHING the golden SS forms and SSGod can by default so why downgrade yourself like this?

The movies are as much canon as the series or manga. To me, they are even more important source since they were first and the rest was based on those 2 movies. And yes, I know that the series contradicts some stuff from those movies, but as I've written, they ade some retcons.

And if youwant to go with 3 different continuities stuff, that's how it would present:
1) the movies
2) the mangas (DBS and RoF)
3) the series

Besides, SbG is a state beyond most of the SS transformations, so it's obvious that they don't use it if it's not really necessary. Why would Goku for eg should use SbG state against some Botamo or Frost if all he needs is just SSJ1 ??

[Saturnine]

Besides, SbG is a state beyond most of the SS transformations, so it's obvious that they don't use it if it's not really necessary. Why would Goku for eg should use SbG state against some Botamo or Frost if all he needs is just SSJ1 ??

So you think the SSj god he used later against Hit is somehow different in power to his SbG state? Super manga clearly contradicts the RoF manga. The latter was just supposed to be a promotional piece for the theatrical release, while the Super manga is its own thing.

[ekrolo2]

The movies are as much canon as the series or manga. To me, they are even more important source since they were first and the rest was based on those 2 movies. And yes, I know that the series contradicts some stuff from those movies, but as I've written, they ade some retcons.

And if youwant to go with 3 different continuities stuff, that's how it would present:
1) the movies
2) the mangas (DBS and RoF)
3) the series

Besides, SbG is a state beyond most of the SS transformations, so it's obvious that they don't use it if it's not really necessary. Why would Goku for eg should use SbG state against some Botamo or Frost if all he needs is just SSJ1 ??

It isn't that they just retcon some stuff, they fundamentally cannot go together due to various different factors involved. Gotenks has a completely different form in each one when he fights Beerus, Goku has an arc in the movie that's totally basent from either the show or the manga while Beerus has one in the anime that's totally absent from the movies or the manga. SS Goku vs Beerus is entirely absent from the manga whereas the movie doesn't have them breaking the universe like the manga and anime do.

It's like trying to tell me TDKReturns and Kingdom Come are both the canonical end points of the DC universe when they CANNOT go together.

The reason SSBeyond God existing with the SS forms is retarded is like this:

Goku (Saiyan Beyond God): 100,000, Frost: 50, Goku (according to what you say powers himself down then powers back UP with SS): 200

Why?! Why would he power his Base down then power it back up with a transformations?! It's his Base form! The one he can make weak enough to touch a fly without killing it to strong enough to break a planet, what fucking point is there to power up like this when he can just weaken his Base form into being stronger than Frost to casually beat him up. It's what he does the Ginyu Force!

There's also the fact Saiyan Beyond God comes as a direct consequence of absorbing SSGod which doesn't happen in the manga since Goku and Vegeta both have SSGod as a transformation, not as a temporary thing they get once to boost their stats permanently.

[szopman]

Besides, SbG is a state beyond most of the SS transformations, so it's obvious that they don't use it if it's not really necessary. Why would Goku for eg should use SbG state against some Botamo or Frost if all he needs is just SSJ1 ??

So you think the SSj god he used later against Hit is somehow different in power to his SbG state? Super manga clearly contradicts the RoF manga. The latter was just supposed to be a promotional piece for the theatrical release, while the Super manga is its own thing.

Which part of the word "retcon" you don't understand?
But yes, I think that they're might be a different states/levels.

Besides, how can three DB mangas written by Toriyama be a three separate continuities?

@ekrolo2
I don't think that the Base state and SbG is the same. I think it's siilar to Gohan's case, the base is just the base form, and Ultimate/SbG are separate forms.
In Gohan's case here the chain of the transformations: Base -> SSJ1 -> SSJ2 -> Mystic.
In Goku/Vegeta's case it would be something like this: SSJ1->SJJ2-> SSJ3/Mastered SSJ2-> SSJ God -> SbG -> SSJ Blue. Or SbG -> SSJGod, I dunno which would be stronger. Or they may be equal. The idea was changed/retconned but it doesn't mean the form doesnt exist in DB unvierse, cause it does, it was shown in both movie and manga which are official DBZ canon.
Besides, why would Goku fight with Frost using SbG if all he needs is SSJ1 ?

[Marlowe89]

Now, this doesn't necessarily mean that not letting their Ki leak out in base form automatically puts them at god-level, that's just them gaining control of their godly power.

That doesn't make any sense either. If it didn't make them stronger, Vegeta wouldn't have observed his own fists in amazement after generating that blue aura for the first time or comment on how the pressure of it was immense in Episode 22, Goku wouldn't have (again) called Blue the Super Saiyan form of a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God, Goku's friends wouldn't have commented on how they couldn't see base Goku's movements against Final Form Frieza even though they could clearly observe his movements as a Super Saiyan God against Beerus, and the pamphlet wouldn't refer to those who could gain control of God-like power as "God-like Saiyans" in the next sentence. The fact that raising their ki without letting it leak caused a new aura to manifest in the first place clearly suggests that they were generating a new power.

Moreover, Vegeta wasn't mentioned to have Godly power simply from his 6-month training with Whis and the last time we saw Goku using that power was against Beerus as a Super Saiyan (and in the latter case, it could have sizzled out). The exercise of them not letting their ki leak out not only entailed them learning to control that power, it was also clearly the key to generating it in their base forms.

[ekrolo2]

I don't think that the Base state and SbG is the same. I think it's siilar to Gohan's case, the base is just the base form, and Ultimate/SbG are separate forms.
In Gohan's case here the chain of the transformations: Base -> SSJ1 -> SSJ2 -> Mystic.
In Goku/Vegeta's case it would be something like this: SSJ1->SJJ2-> SSJ3/Mastered SSJ2-> SSJ God -> SbG -> SSJ Blue. Or SbG -> SSJGod, I dunno which would be stronger. Or they may be equal. The idea was changed/retconned but it doesn't mean the form doesnt exist in DB unvierse, cause it does, it was shown in both movie and manga which are official DBZ canon.
Besides, why would Goku fight with Frost using SbG if all he needs is SSJ1 ?

I don't care what the anime's moronic stance on Gohan's Ultimate form is so I don't take it into account for anything except as more proof that Ultimate, the simplest concept ever, WILL forever be fucked by stupid writers.

I already explained to you why it's retarded for Goku's BASE form, empowered by SSGod's strength to get brought down to being weaker then Frost only for Goku to power himself back up again with SS1. It's pointless, all he needs to do is power down his Base form and he can beat up Frost that way.

It's like if an olympic track runner races the fat bastard from Austin Powers by purposefully slowing himself down to an inert brick pace then using steroids to pump himself up again when his default speed lets him already outrun the fat bastard.

The movies and the anime also don't treat Saiyan Beyond God as a separate thing during the BoG or F arcs: that's just Goku & Vegeta's default Base until Toriyama's myriad of retcons appear in the U6 arc to mess with that assertion. You also keep ignoring the fact the manga's brought back SSGod which, by default, means Saiyan Beyond God can't exist there.

[szopman]

I don't think that the Base state and SbG is the same. I think it's siilar to Gohan's case, the base is just the base form, and Ultimate/SbG are separate forms.
In Gohan's case here the chain of the transformations: Base -> SSJ1 -> SSJ2 -> Mystic.
In Goku/Vegeta's case it would be something like this: SSJ1->SJJ2-> SSJ3/Mastered SSJ2-> SSJ God -> SbG -> SSJ Blue. Or SbG -> SSJGod, I dunno which would be stronger. Or they may be equal. The idea was changed/retconned but it doesn't mean the form doesnt exist in DB unvierse, cause it does, it was shown in both movie and manga which are official DBZ canon.
Besides, why would Goku fight with Frost using SbG if all he needs is SSJ1 ?

I don't care what the anime's moronic stance on Gohan's Ultimate form is so I don't take it into account for anything except as more proof that Ultimate, the simplest concept ever, WILL forever be fucked by stupid writers.

I already explained to you why it's retarded for Goku's BASE form, empowered by SSGod's strength to get brought down to being weaker then Frost only for Goku to power himself back up again with SS1. It's pointless, all he needs to do is power down his Base form and he can beat up Frost that way.

It's like if an olympic track runner races the fat bastard from Austin Powers by purposefully slowing himself down to an inert brick pace then using steroids to pump himself up again when his default speed lets him already outrun the fat bastard.

The movies and the anime also don't treat Saiyan Beyond God as a separate thing during the BoG or F arcs: that's just Goku & Vegeta's default Base until Toriyama's myriad of retcons appear in the U6 arc to mess with that assertion. You also keep ignoring the fact the manga's brought back SSGod which, by default, means Saiyan Beyond God can't exist there.

You are still confusing the BASE form and the SbG form. It's not the same. SbG is one of possible transformation from Base form. I'm not ignoring the fact that manga brought back SSJGod, I' saying that this is what the people call "RETCON". And yes, by the time of U6 Saga it might not exist anymore, due to the mentioned retcon. But by the time of RoF (movie/manga) events, it clearly does.

[Saturnine]

Which part of the word "retcon" you don't understand?
But yes, I think that they're might be a different states/levels.

No they're not. Or at least very close in power. But having Goku first use a God-empowered base form and then use the actual form is the opposite of sensible. We are taught that striving for a level of power without transforming is always preferable to achieving the same power via transformation. SbG is the best form Goku can have, because it's really his base form, so it doesn't drain his stamina at all. Therefore it would be rather weird if Toyotaro's RoF promotional manga existed in the same continuity as his Super manga.

Also stop saying that Toriyama writes these mangas. He doesn't, he just provides a basic plot outline. Toyotaro himself writes all the rest.

it was shown in both movie and manga which are official DBZ canon.

The movie was indeed canon, but it no longer is, because Super has superseded it. They can't both be canon at the same time because there are differences between them. One has to have precedence over the other. And as early as before the RoF fight, Goku says in Super that he's way inferior to Beerus, so it's too early for them to fight. In the movie on the other hand, Whis says that if Goku and Vegeta fought together, they'd have a chance against Beerus. So when looking at the greater picture, the anime is more in line with the direction of the series, so the anime takes precedence.

Besides, why would Goku fight with Frost using SbG if all he needs is SSJ1 ?

Because SSj1 is still a transformation, he could just as well modify his base powerlevel to match it and he'd be better off. He never does that. Food for thought.

[ekrolo2]

I don't think that the Base state and SbG is the same. I think it's siilar to Gohan's case, the base is just the base form, and Ultimate/SbG are separate forms.
In Gohan's case here the chain of the transformations: Base -> SSJ1 -> SSJ2 -> Mystic.
In Goku/Vegeta's case it would be something like this: SSJ1->SJJ2-> SSJ3/Mastered SSJ2-> SSJ God -> SbG -> SSJ Blue. Or SbG -> SSJGod, I dunno which would be stronger. Or they may be equal. The idea was changed/retconned but it doesn't mean the form doesnt exist in DB unvierse, cause it does, it was shown in both movie and manga which are official DBZ canon.
Besides, why would Goku fight with Frost using SbG if all he needs is SSJ1 ?

I don't care what the anime's moronic stance on Gohan's Ultimate form is so I don't take it into account for anything except as more proof that Ultimate, the simplest concept ever, WILL forever be fucked by stupid writers.

I already explained to you why it's retarded for Goku's BASE form, empowered by SSGod's strength to get brought down to being weaker then Frost only for Goku to power himself back up again with SS1. It's pointless, all he needs to do is power down his Base form and he can beat up Frost that way.

It's like if an olympic track runner races the fat bastard from Austin Powers by purposefully slowing himself down to an inert brick pace then using steroids to pump himself up again when his default speed lets him already outrun the fat bastard.

The movies and the anime also don't treat Saiyan Beyond God as a separate thing during the BoG or F arcs: that's just Goku & Vegeta's default Base until Toriyama's myriad of retcons appear in the U6 arc to mess with that assertion. You also keep ignoring the fact the manga's brought back SSGod which, by default, means Saiyan Beyond God can't exist there.

You are still confusing the BASE form and the SbG form. It's not the same. SbG is one of possible transformation from Base form. I'm not ignoring the fact that manga brought back SSJGod, I' saying that this is what the people call "RETCON". And yes, by the time of U6 Saga it might not exist anymore, due to the mentioned retcon. But by the time of RoF (movie/manga) events, it clearly does.

It's not a transformation, it's Goku & Vegeta's Base form with a fancy name attached to it just like how Ultimate Gohan is Gohan's Base with another fancy name attached to it, and those fancy names don't exist ANYWHERE in universe, they're either fan or video game terms people try to apply to stuff outside said games and suddenly assume they're entirely different forms.

Hell, Old Kai even says that transformations are fucking dumb and that his ritual is the proper way to power yourself up.