Does the Saiyan Beyond God exist?

[MisteryOne]

However, Super, in both the anime and the manga, royally screwed the pooch by re-introducing original Super Saiyan forms and confusing the hell out a lot of fans as to determining whether Goku and Vegeta were using God ki, and by definition had their base form as strong as Super Saiyan God, prior to their transformation into Super Saiyan 1/2/3 or not. What we do know for a fact is that Goku and Vegeta in their bases form are really fucking strong. But are their base forms as strong as Super Saiyan God? That's still up in the air.

You forgot about the fact that in the manga, they transform into Super Saiyan God like nothing, which makes Saiyan Beyond God, kinda pointless.

Saiyan Beyond God doesn't exist in the manga at all...Haven't you read it?

[Lord Beerus]

However, Super, in both the anime and the manga, royally screwed the pooch by re-introducing original Super Saiyan forms and confusing the hell out a lot of fans as to determining whether Goku and Vegeta were using God ki, and by definition had their base form as strong as Super Saiyan God, prior to their transformation into Super Saiyan 1/2/3 or not. What we do know for a fact is that Goku and Vegeta in their bases form are really fucking strong. But are their base forms as strong as Super Saiyan God? That's still up in the air.

You forgot about the fact that in the manga, they transform into Super Saiyan God like nothing, which makes Saiyan Beyond God, kinda pointless.

Saiyan Beyond God doesn't exist in the manga at all...Haven't you read it?

I'm not so sure. In Chapter 5 of the Super manga, when Goku and Vegeta were sparing that Vegeta turned SSJB and blasted with a ki attack Base Goku at point blank range, and while Goku states that Vegeta's attack hurt him, Goku seemed more annoyed than anything else as he quickly recovered like nothing happened. I mean, his clothes weren't even damaged in the slightest! I understand that it was a sparring match, but given how much people were going on about the raw power of SSJB and just how strong is Goku is in his base form for an attack from SSJB Vegeta, even in the case of a sparring match, to be more of an mild annoyance to him than actually severally injuring him like it would given the supposed huge gap in strength from base to SSJB tier in the manga? Or maybe we go with the other option being that this support the notion that you can could lower the strength in SSJB to varying degrees. But even so, why on Earth would Vegeta need to use Super Saiyan Blue to catch Base Goku off guard in a sparring match? Vegeta could have used Super Saiyan God, too.

[Hit-Man]

It exists...I seen it with my own eyes.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

It exists...I seen it with my own eyes.

I know. We see it all the time. We see it EXTREMELY often.

It's just their normal base power, as far as I'm concerned.

[jplaya2023]

i always felt like saiyan beyond god is a hoax and that they weren't meant to absorb god ki. I always felt god forms were extensions of ssj forms anyway, that's how they can switch between them at will

[Dragon Ball Gus]

You forgot about the fact that in the manga, they transform into Super Saiyan God like nothing, which makes Saiyan Beyond God, kinda pointless.

Saiyan Beyond God doesn't exist in the manga at all...Haven't you read it?

I'm not so sure. In Chapter 5 of the Super manga, when Goku and Vegeta were sparing that Vegeta turned SSJB and blasted with a ki attack Base Goku at point blank range, and while Goku states that Vegeta's attack hurt him, Goku seemed more annoyed than anything else as he quickly recovered like nothing happened. I mean, his clothes weren't even damaged in the slightest! I understand that it was a sparring match, but given how much people were going on about the raw power of SSJB and just how strong is Goku is in his base form for an attack from SSJB Vegeta, even in the case of a sparring match, to be more of an mild annoyance to him than actually severally injuring him like it would given the supposed huge gap in strength from base to SSJB tier in the manga? Or maybe we go with the other option being that this support the notion that you can could lower the strength in SSJB to varying degrees. But even so, why on Earth would Vegeta need to use Super Saiyan Blue to catch Base Goku off guard in a sparring match? Vegeta could have used Super Saiyan God, too.

You didn't reply to my response, Lord Beerus.

[Bullza]

I really don't know.

On the one hand there has been absolutely nothing said in the show about it being a thing they can turn on and off. It'd take them a whole 30 seconds to explain and yet in 95 episodes they've said nothing on it.

On the other hand the manga has made it clear that the regular Super Saiyan forms are below God. You'd think that would be true for the anime too and in part it does look that way considering we've seen SSJ Goku fight evenly with SSJ Gohan and SSJ2 Goku get pushed back by SSJ2 Trunks.

Then there's that Zamasu said Goku got tens of times stronger as a SSJ. If he's constantly in Saiyan Beyond God form then he'd be tens of times stronger than SSJG as a SSJ? Hundreds of times stronger as SSJ3? Thousands of times stronger with Blue Kaioken? And yet Beerus is still stronger than him even though he said he briefly regretted seeking SSJG Goku out?

That makes no sense.

Between SSJ Goku being weaker than SSJG or SSJ Goku being 50 times stronger than SSJG you'd obviously have to go with the former which does make me think that yes Saiyan Beyond God being turned on and off is a thing.

[MisteryOne]

You forgot about the fact that in the manga, they transform into Super Saiyan God like nothing, which makes Saiyan Beyond God, kinda pointless.

Saiyan Beyond God doesn't exist in the manga at all...Haven't you read it?

I'm not so sure. In Chapter 5 of the Super manga, when Goku and Vegeta were sparing that Vegeta turned SSJB and blasted with a ki attack Base Goku at point blank range, and while Goku states that Vegeta's attack hurt him, Goku seemed more annoyed than anything else as he quickly recovered like nothing happened. I mean, his clothes weren't even damaged in the slightest! I understand that it was a sparring match, but given how much people were going on about the raw power of SSJB and just how strong is Goku is in his base form for an attack from SSJB Vegeta, even in the case of a sparring match, to be more of an mild annoyance to him than actually severally injuring him like it would given the supposed huge gap in strength from base to SSJB tier in the manga? Or maybe we go with the other option being that this support the notion that you can could lower the strength in SSJB to varying degrees. But even so, why on Earth would Vegeta need to use Super Saiyan Blue to catch Base Goku off guard in a sparring match? Vegeta could have used Super Saiyan God, too.

That doesn't work at all for various reasons:

- It was before they went into the ROSAT. Since it serves no other purpouse in a narrative way, I'm sure they going there was an excuse for them to later use thw old SS forms. I seriously doubt it's a coincidence than they don't turn golden SS at all in any media before going there.
-Vegeta didn't have SSG before his rematch with Black. I dunno why you're saying that.
- You are completely ignoring the context here. Unlike the anime version, where Vegeta just pulls the name "Super Saiyan Blue" in the tournament out of nothing, in the manga it was explained why it was changed from SSGSS to SSBlue. In order to that, the gag scene needed them to actually transform into the form. Not to mention it's a callback to a scene of the Toyble's AF where Goku transforms as well.
- Unlike in the anime, there is nothing suggesting Goku and Vegeta have a second, stronger base form after a scene that, again, was needed for a gag and for Whis to make the heavy outfitd for Goku and Vegeta (which clearly was part of Toriyama's outline, since it appears in the anime as well and makes Champa think Goku and Vegeta are weaklings). In the anime there are multiple scenarios where Goku shows a extremely strong base form, yet in the manga it doesn't happen. Toyotaro himself draw the RoF manga where Goku does indeed use Saiyan Beyond God, but that is not part of the manga continuity. It's pretty clear (And in fact I recall we discussed this already) Toriyama retconned at some point that Goku and Vegeta had a strong base and SSGSS as a substitute to normal SS forms. It's possible Toyotaro didn't know about that change when he did Chapter 5. And even if he knew, point still stands:
+ It was a gag scene needed to explain the naming "Super Saiyan Blue" and for Whis to force the heavy suits on then. It was also a reference to DBAF. There isn't any more effective way to do it considering the limited number of pages and the fact that Goku going SSG in that fight would destroy the final plot twist of the tournament itself.
+Unlike in the anime, at any moment Goku or Vegeta have showed a base-like form stronger than the gold SS ones, let alone at God level. Toei on the other hand has showed multiple times the opposite.

You're also proving my point. Why would they, specially Goku during his fight with Hit, and Vegeta against his fight with Black, transform at all if they can just use Beyong God? It makes zero sense, and Toyotaro unlike the anime staff has been very specific when explaining all the SS forms, including Rosé. If they had Beyond God, Toyotaro would have explained it already.

[Marlowe89]

On the one hand there has been absolutely nothing said in the show about it being a thing they can turn on and off. It'd take them a whole 30 seconds to explain and yet in 95 episodes they've said nothing on it.

To be fair, we didn't know that Ultimate Gohan was a distinct transformation either until recently, and even then it still wasn't specifically explained to us and had to be concluded solely from visual cues.

As for the topic, I think it's all too obvious at this point that Goku and Vegeta can toggle their Godly power on-and-off in base, with Super Saiyan Blue being an offshoot of the Godly base and yellow being an offshoot of the non-Godly one. That's what the RoF pamphlet implies, and it's also what the anime implies when Goku calls Super Saiyan Blue the Super Saiyan form of a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God (which would implicitly suggest that yellow would have to be the Super Saiyan form of something else). There's also the narrator describing Blue to have surpassed even Super Saiyan God as well as Goku being stated to have reached "God level" only upon transforming into Blue.

[Whatever]

On the one hand there has been absolutely nothing said in the show about it being a thing they can turn on and off. It'd take them a whole 30 seconds to explain and yet in 95 episodes they've said nothing on it.

To be fair, we didn't know that Ultimate Gohan was a distinct transformation either until recently, and even then it still wasn't specifically explained to us and had to be concluded solely from visual cues.

As for the topic, I think it's all too obvious at this point that Goku and Vegeta can toggle their Godly power on-and-off in base, with Super Saiyan Blue being an offshoot of the Godly base and yellow being an offshoot of the non-Godly one. That's what the RoF pamphlet implies, and it's also what the anime implies when Goku calls Super Saiyan Blue the Super Saiyan form of a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God (which would implicitly suggest that yellow would have to be the Super Saiyan form of something else). There's also the narrator describing Blue to have surpassed even Super Saiyan God as well as Goku being stated to have reached "God level" only upon transforming into Blue.

Goku and Vegeta never had god kii in their base form to begin with,so needless to say there are not 2 base forms.Not only such a thing was never stated,its obvious the 2 base form thing does not exist.The only forms that have god kii is super saiyan god and super saiyan blue.
In bog and rof Gohan could sense Goku while he was fighting Beerus and Frieza in his base form but could not when he went super saiyan god or super saiyan blue.

[Marlowe89]

...I didn't say anything about God ki.

We know that Goku and Vegeta can use "Godly power" in base because it was outright stated in the movie, the anime and even supplementary material.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

We know that Goku and Vegeta can use "Godly power" in base because it was outright stated in the movie, the anime and even supplementary material.

*Citation needed

I've watched RoF more times that I'd like to admit, and I'm 99% positive that was never alluded to.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I think the biggest hurdle with regards to understanding Saiyan Beyond God is the naming and implications.

People believe it's supposed to be a base Saiyan being as strong or stronger than SSG, but that's never been the case in the anime. The anime fuddled it up in BoG, but this was later corrected afterwards by not making abundantly clear comparisons of their normal power to their godly power.

The name merely means that it's a Saiyan who's made the power of SSG his own. That's it.

What's factual is that Goku did so via absorbing SSG's power into himself, whilst Vegeta did so via training under Whis. Nothing about this being a separate power or being exactly as strong as or stronger than SSG. Also, people keep forgetting that the anime made an important distinction with regards to SSB in its adaptation of RoF; mainly, SSB being achieved when a Saiyan learns to prevent his Ki from leaking out, later referenced when Goku states that the form has great Ki control.

People that separate Saiyan Beyond God unintentionally (or sometimes even intentionally) support arbitrary power levels determined solely by instances of when this idea of a separate Saiyan Beyond God is arbitrarily used or not. Occam's Razor tells us that Goku and Vegeta are super strong, as are people fighting directly on their level in pure slugfests. That's it.

[Marlowe89]

*Citation needed

I've watched RoF more times that I'd like to admit, and I'm 99% positive that was never alluded to.

I've already cited it in my initial post. In the Japanese version of RoF, Goku calls Blue the "Super Saiyan of a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God" -- obviously there would have to be a "Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God" for that statement to hold true. The anime states the same thing.

There's also the supplementary art pamphlet that was included in an issue of V Jump that states Goku and Vegeta can "gain control of God-like power without changing form" and one of the special scenarios in Dokkan Battle where Whis instructs Goku to utilize the power of a Super Saiyan God and then transform into a Super Saiyan to become a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.

SSB being achieved when a Saiyan learns to prevent his Ki from leaking out

Actually, that was never said in the anime at any point. Just because Goku and Vegeta learned to prevent their ki from leaking doesn't necessarily mean that was explicitly how they achieved Blue, otherwise we wouldn't have seen them doing it in base. For all we're aware of, it simply could have been how they obtained Godly power for their own personal use. All that was said about Blue in the anime is that it's the Super Saiyan form of a Saiyan with Super Saiyan God's power, which, again, intrinsically suggests the yellow forms to offshoot from a different state of power.

[Hugo Boss]

There's also the supplementary art pamphlet that was included in an issue of V Jump that states Goku and Vegeta can "gain control of God-like power without changing form" and one of the special scenarios in Dokkan Battle where Whis instructs Goku to utilize the power of a Super Saiyan God and then transform into a Super Saiyan to become a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.

Interesting. Is there a publication in English where I can find this information? It would be useful.

Base form with god-like power was something I was fine with until Champa Arc came. Now, the anime seems to be under the idea that Goku only has god-like power starting with Super Saiyan Blue.

[Lord Beerus]

Saiyan Beyond God doesn't exist in the manga at all...Haven't you read it?

I'm not so sure. In Chapter 5 of the Super manga, when Goku and Vegeta were sparing that Vegeta turned SSJB and blasted with a ki attack Base Goku at point blank range, and while Goku states that Vegeta's attack hurt him, Goku seemed more annoyed than anything else as he quickly recovered like nothing happened. I mean, his clothes weren't even damaged in the slightest! I understand that it was a sparring match, but given how much people were going on about the raw power of SSJB and just how strong is Goku is in his base form for an attack from SSJB Vegeta, even in the case of a sparring match, to be more of an mild annoyance to him than actually severally injuring him like it would given the supposed huge gap in strength from base to SSJB tier in the manga? Or maybe we go with the other option being that this support the notion that you can could lower the strength in SSJB to varying degrees. But even so, why on Earth would Vegeta need to use Super Saiyan Blue to catch Base Goku off guard in a sparring match? Vegeta could have used Super Saiyan God, too.

That doesn't work at all for various reasons:

- It was before they went into the ROSAT. Since it serves no other purpouse in a narrative way, I'm sure they going there was an excuse for them to later use thw old SS forms. I seriously doubt it's a coincidence than they don't turn golden SS at all in any media before going there.
-Vegeta didn't have SSG before his rematch with Black. I dunno why you're saying that.
- You are completely ignoring the context here. Unlike the anime version, where Vegeta just pulls the name "Super Saiyan Blue" in the tournament out of nothing, in the manga it was explained why it was changed from SSGSS to SSBlue. In order to that, the gag scene needed them to actually transform into the form. Not to mention it's a callback to a scene of the Toyble's AF where Goku transforms as well.
- Unlike in the anime, there is nothing suggesting Goku and Vegeta have a second, stronger base form after a scene that, again, was needed for a gag and for Whis to make the heavy outfitd for Goku and Vegeta (which clearly was part of Toriyama's outline, since it appears in the anime as well and makes Champa think Goku and Vegeta are weaklings). In the anime there are multiple scenarios where Goku shows a extremely strong base form, yet in the manga it doesn't happen. Toyotaro himself draw the RoF manga where Goku does indeed use Saiyan Beyond God, but that is not part of the manga continuity. It's pretty clear (And in fact I recall we discussed this already) Toriyama retconned at some point that Goku and Vegeta had a strong base and SSGSS as a substitute to normal SS forms. It's possible Toyotaro didn't know about that change when he did Chapter 5. And even if he knew, point still stands:
+ It was a gag scene needed to explain the naming "Super Saiyan Blue" and for Whis to force the heavy suits on then. It was also a reference to DBAF. There isn't any more effective way to do it considering the limited number of pages and the fact that Goku going SSG in that fight would destroy the final plot twist of the tournament itself.
+Unlike in the anime, at any moment Goku or Vegeta have showed a base-like form stronger than the gold SS ones, let alone at God level. Toei on the other hand has showed multiple times the opposite.

You're also proving my point. Why would they, specially Goku during his fight with Hit, and Vegeta against his fight with Black, transform at all if they can just use Beyong God? It makes zero sense, and Toyotaro unlike the anime staff has been very specific when explaining all the SS forms, including Rosé. If they had Beyond God, Toyotaro would have explained it already.

What does it matter if they went into the ROSAT of time or not? They had already become strong enough to tap harness God ki and turn into Super Saiyan Blue at will through Whis' training. So the gains they made by that time were already substantial.

Also, nothing implies he suddenly gained the the form off screen after getting his ass kicked by Goku Black. The only reason he used the form when he came to fight Goku Black the second time was the minimize the issue of Super Saiyan Blue so that he could fight Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black. Besides, you have to do the ritual to gain the form. You can't train to gain it. Besides, he couldn't have become a Super Saiyan Blue if he wasn't already exposed to Godly ki and had gained the power of Super Saiyan God to unlock the form. He definitely became a Super Saiyan God at some point after Battle Of Gods and before Resurrection F in the manga.

Does the change in name (From Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan to Super Saiyan Blue) have any bearing whatsoever to the fact that Base Goku tanked an attack at point blank range from SSJB Vegeta? No. The change in the name of the form is absolutely inconsequential to the events that transpire before it. That's like saying that the battle between SSJ3 Goku and Majin Boo is a gag because of heavy the comical undertones were before Goku became a SSJ3, and after he gained the form and started beating up Majin Boo in a comical fashion. Majin Boo may have been a gag heavy character, but his strength and abilities were still taken seriously in-universe. Dragon Ball is not like Dr Slump were some feats in strengths can be disregarded because it lead to a gag. And kind of comedy that Dragon Ball has is usually play straight with the weaker opponent being on the receiving of the "gag" in question. It's never the other away around. Sweeping the scenerio of Goku being unharmed from an attack at point blank range from SSJB Vegeta under the pretenses of, "It lead to a gag so it doesn't count/matter", quite frankly, is faulty logic. Perhaps Goku and Vegeta know just how incredibly strong their base forms are and still transformed because, why the hell not? It's just a game and sport for them. Besides, they've done far more ridiculous things for shits and giggles in fights that had much bigger stakes than what was presented in the Champa arc tournament.

Plus, do you think anybody would give any kind of notice to what happened in AF? What happened in AF has no significant bearing to what happens in the manga.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

I've already cited it in my initial post. In the Japanese version of RoF, Goku calls Blue the "Super Saiyan of a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God" -- obviously there would have to be a "Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God" for that statement to hold true.

Simmons disagrees.

Nothing about this directly implies a "Saiyan Beyond God". It still could exist, but there's no proof.

There's also the supplementary art pamphlet that was included in an issue of V Jump that states Goku and Vegeta can "gain control of God-like power without changing form" and one of the special scenarios in Dokkan Battle where Whis instructs Goku to utilize the power of a Super Saiyan God and then transform into a Super Saiyan to become a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.

I don't put stock in promotional lines, they've been deceitful before. Remember the "Super Saiyan Rose is Goku Black's version of Super Saiyan" debacle?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

SSB being achieved when a Saiyan learns to prevent his Ki from leaking out

Actually, that was never said in the anime at any point. Just because Goku and Vegeta learned to prevent their ki from leaking doesn't necessarily mean that was explicitly how they achieved Blue, otherwise we wouldn't have seen them doing it in base. For all we're aware of, it simply could have been how they obtained Godly power for their own personal use. All that was said about Blue in the anime is that it's the Super Saiyan form of a Saiyan with Super Saiyan God's power, which, again, intrinsically suggests the yellow forms to offshoot from a different state of power.

We know it has SOMETHING to do with it, because it lead to them directly experiencing blue godly power, and was the key to their training in Whis's staff dimension, which is directly implied to be when they learned to utilize SSB. We see them do it in base, but we never see them do it in SS, now do we? Unlike Separate Saiyan Beyond God, this interpretation has direct evidence taken from the anime that's exclusive to the medium and not drawn from some outdated guidebook to the original movie.

As well, by that point, Goku and Vegeta were definitively god-powered by that point, Goku via absorbing SSG and Vegeta via 6 months of training under Whis. The idea that it was how they got godly power in the first place doesn't necessarily work, because they explicitly already had it at that point.

As well, people keep interpreting the wording of "a Super Saiyan who is a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God" as "a Super Saiyan who is a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God", and ignore the other interpretation of "a Super Saiyan who is a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God". The exact same wording, but entirely different context. The latter is likely the more accurate interpretation, as it's supported numerous times by Vegeta and Goku specifically transforming from regular SS to SSB.

[Marlowe89]

Simmons disagrees.

Okay? Herms disagrees with Simmons then:

In Japanese it's:

超サイヤ人ゴッドのパワーを持ったサイヤ人の超サイヤ人
Suupaa Saiya-jin Goddo no pawaa wo motta Saiya-jin no Suupaa Saiya-jin

At root it's the word "Super Saiyan" modified by the preceding clause "Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God". In other words, the Super Saiyan (form) of a Saiyan-with-the-power-of-Super-Saiyan-God.

I don't put stock in promotional lines, they've been deceitful before. Remember the "Super Saiyan Rose is Goku Black's version of Super Saiyan" debacle.

Super Saiyan Blue is also just an alternate version of Super Saiyan, so that's not technically inaccurate really.

The latter is likely the more accurate interpretation

No, the former is. See above.

We know it has SOMETHING to do with it, because it lead to them directly experiencing blue godly power, and was the key to their training in Whis's staff dimension, which is directly implied to be when they learned to utilize SSB.

Again, though, simply because it shares a causal relation with it does not automatically presuppose it to be the direct cause. It's not like that exercise specifically triggered the transformation since we distinctly see them utilizing that aura in their base forms. It could have just been Godly power, which would be further consistent with the dialogue in Episode 22 when they were taining in Whis' staff dimension.

Interesting. Is there a publication in English where I can find this information? It would be useful.

Sure, but keep in mind that this is RoF material.

[Misirius]

If you only follow the manga canon, how would you explain the fact that Goku uses SbG in RoF manga ?

That manga was a movie promotional material, it wasn't even a complete arc.

Since DBS started, Toyotaro's manga is his view of Toriyama's story. If he redid the arc, we would probably have some more answers. Since he didn't, we don't know. I like to thing it doesn't, because according to the manga, Goku goes SS God when he wants to use God Ki. Imo, much more logical.