Does the Saiyan Beyond God exist?

[Potara_Vegetto]

Proofs of its existence?
Proofs of its non-existence?

[Lord Beerus]

Oh, Lord. This can of worms...

Some promotional material come out for the Resurrection F movie stating that Saiyans can gain control of God-like power without changing form. This naturally lead to the conclusion that in the events of Resurrection F and everything after that, Goku and Vegeta in their base form were as strong as Super Saiyan God, given the circumstances for how you transform into Super Saiyan Blue, include having the power of Super Saiyan God and the fact that Goku has absorbed the power of Super Saiyan at the end of Battle Of Gods.

However, Super, in both the anime and the manga, royally screwed the pooch by re-introducing original Super Saiyan forms and confusing the hell out a lot of fans as to determining whether Goku and Vegeta were using God ki, and by definition had their base form as strong as Super Saiyan God, prior to their transformation into Super Saiyan 1/2/3 or not. What we do know for a fact is that Goku and Vegeta in their bases form are really fucking strong. But are their base forms as strong as Super Saiyan God? That's still up in the air.

[Boo Machine]

Ever since the Ressurection F arc ended it would seem that the "Saiyan Beyond God" thing has either been forgotten about or ignored. Either way it doesn't seem to be a thing anymore except in the mini potafu arc. At the very least certain fights are a lot more believable if we just assume that the whole "Absorbed the power of a god and are now the level of Super Saiyan God because of it" thing has been forgotten or ignored.

[Xeztin]

It exists but was abandoned more than likely because of the tournament of the Champa arc. Everyone would have had to be on SSJB tier to put a scratch on Vegeta and Goku and if that was done the entire team of Universe 7 (Except Goku and Vegeta) would be useless and killed. They had to give Goku and Vegeta their weaker forms so that everyone had a chance to shine, just like how in the Universe Survival arc, there will be a lot of fighters on SSJ1-3 tier for the cast and people like Toppo, Hit, and Jiren for Goku and Vegeta. I think the original plan was Saiyan Beyond God>SSJB but because of tournaments it had to be thrown out. Throwing out that form was easier than coming up with a bunch of character designs or plot reasons as to how Kuririn and cast would survive Universe 6 if everyone was as strong as Hit and SSJB.

If you want a canonical way of looking at it, you could simply say it was abandoned by Goku and Vegeta just like the SSJ Grade forms were in favor of going straight to SSJB from SSJ instead.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I'd say that it's still a thing, as Goku and Vegeta are still considered really strong after absorbing SSG's being and being trained by an Angel, respectively.

SSB is still described as a Super Saiyan who is a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God, so they clearly still possess SSG's power to some degree.

It's my own personal headcanon that, in regular forms like base and SS(2/3), Goku and Vegeta do indeed have Saiyan Beyond God, it's just that it's their normal power after attaining the power of SSG and making it their own, not some separate power state. Doesn't mean they're as strong as SSG in base form, just that its power is their own and empowers them all the time.

I also believe that SSB is what happens when they can fully utilize that power and increase its threshold, done via keeping their Ki from leaking in the SS form, whether it be by stopping Ki leakage in base then turning SS, or turning SS then stopping Ki Ki leakage.

[BlueBasilisk]

Oh, Lord. This can of worms...

Some promotional material come out for the Resurrection F movie stating that Saiyans can gain control of God-like power without changing form. This naturally lead to the conclusion that in the events of Resurrection F and everything after that, Goku and Vegeta in their base form were as strong as Super Saiyan God, given the circumstances for how you transform into Super Saiyan Blue, include having the power of Super Saiyan God and the fact that Goku has absorbed the power of Super Saiyan at the end of Battle Of Gods.

However, Super, in both the anime and the manga, royally screwed the pooch by re-introducing original Super Saiyan forms and confusing the hell out a lot of fans as to determining whether Goku and Vegeta were using God ki, and by definition had their base form as strong as Super Saiyan God, prior to their transformation into Super Saiyan 1/2/3 or not. What we do know for a fact is that Goku and Vegeta in their bases form are really fucking strong. But are their base forms as strong as Super Saiyan God? That's still up in the air.

Both the original BoG movie and the arc left it really unclear whether Goku has the power of Super Saiyan God in his Super Saiyan form or in his base form. He hangs with Beerus about the same in his normal form for a bit, powers up into Super Saiyan...and still does about as well.

[BlueBasilisk]

Oh, Lord. This can of worms...

Some promotional material come out for the Resurrection F movie stating that Saiyans can gain control of God-like power without changing form. This naturally lead to the conclusion that in the events of Resurrection F and everything after that, Goku and Vegeta in their base form were as strong as Super Saiyan God, given the circumstances for how you transform into Super Saiyan Blue, include having the power of Super Saiyan God and the fact that Goku has absorbed the power of Super Saiyan at the end of Battle Of Gods.

However, Super, in both the anime and the manga, royally screwed the pooch by re-introducing original Super Saiyan forms and confusing the hell out a lot of fans as to determining whether Goku and Vegeta were using God ki, and by definition had their base form as strong as Super Saiyan God, prior to their transformation into Super Saiyan 1/2/3 or not. What we do know for a fact is that Goku and Vegeta in their bases form are really fucking strong. But are their base forms as strong as Super Saiyan God? That's still up in the air.

Both the original BoG movie and the arc left it really unclear whether Goku has the power of Super Saiyan God in his Super Saiyan form or in his base form. He hangs with Beerus about the same in his normal form for a bit, powers up into Super Saiyan...and still does about as well.

It exists but was abandoned more than likely because of the tournament of the Champa arc.

It's come up in other arcs too. In the FT arc, Gowasu is floored by Goku's SS2 and compares it to a God of Destruction. Then in the recent arc you have Goku holding off Ultimate Gohan just as SS2, blocking an attack from powered-up Piccolo who was able to beat SS2 Gohan in his base form, and now he's trading blows with Frieza again.

[Marlowe89]

In the FT arc, Gowasu is floored by Goku's SS2 and compares it to a God of Destruction.

People take that line out of context. Gowasu simply said "Who is this man that's not even a god but as strong as the God of Destruction?" which was a continuation of his previous line, "That man fought with Beerus sama before? Then how come... how come that man is still alive?" -- it wasn't a direct comparison between Super Saiyan 2 and a God of Destruction, but rather something Gowasu inferred from being told Goku fought Beerus and survived.

[Dragon Ball Gus]

However, Super, in both the anime and the manga, royally screwed the pooch by re-introducing original Super Saiyan forms and confusing the hell out a lot of fans as to determining whether Goku and Vegeta were using God ki, and by definition had their base form as strong as Super Saiyan God, prior to their transformation into Super Saiyan 1/2/3 or not. What we do know for a fact is that Goku and Vegeta in their bases form are really fucking strong. But are their base forms as strong as Super Saiyan God? That's still up in the air.

You forgot about the fact that in the manga, they transform into Super Saiyan God like nothing, which makes Saiyan Beyond God, kinda pointless.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

It was more of a speculation than it ever was an official form. What prompted the assumption was Goku's unprecedented base power against RoF Freeza, who himself had powered up so much that no one could even touch him in his first form, much less his final transformation. If you believe in some base god power, that story is where it lived and died, because come next arc, that power is gone without a trace, and using the Super Saiyan transformations are once again necessary to climb the ladder of power.

[ChiefWamsutta]

I basically think of it like this:



Goku loses his Super Saiyan God and goes yellow hair. Beerus says the power (NOT ki) have merged with him. I would propose Beerus was wrong, as it only partially merged with Goku until he turned into Base against the sun ball attack.

I call the yellow hair during this period: Semi-merged Super Saiyan God.

The black hair would be: Merged Super Saiyan God.

He then achieves Super Saiyan Blue and soon this form was discarded like Super Saiyan 3, haha.

[avasatu]

It exists as of episode 95, because Goku was portrayed to be capable of battling Golden Frieza in his base form and "tanking" energy of destruction.

If Goku goes SS1, it means he was in his "normal" (super strong) base.
If Goku goes SSB straight out of base, it means he was in his god essence base.

Most of the time, however, it's the former, and most of the time, Goku goes normal base -> SS1 -> SSB.

[Saturnine]

I think SBG was very quickly retired because from a narrative perspective it served better as a destination, a goal, than a midpoint for a journey. It would really strip the show of all drama if Goku and Vegeta always ran around being as strong as they were then, so SSj and SSj2 had to be reintroduced with a weaker base power to create more drama and suspense. Not to mention it's more interesting to the viewers - otherwise Goku and Vegeta would pretty much be in base all the time and handle all but the strongest opponents.

SBG > SSjB as originally intended would have been much more tidy and logical, but oh well - can't do much about it now. At least Toyotaro proposed a good solution to this mess in the manga by reintroducing Super Saiyan God. That way we're sure that their bases aren't SSjG level. I believe it's the same way in the anime, though there is that missing link of SSj God. I'm not sure if this all can be satisfactorily explained in-universe though. Only out of universe explanations seem to work, such as them wanting to preserve the old SSj forms for nostalgia (no idea why, they could have just left them for the other Saiyans anyway), and goals of drama preservation.

[Misirius]

I follow the Manga canon, and in the manga, Goku achieves SS God with the ritual and retains the ability to achieve the form, without absorbing anything in base form. He only fough Beerus as a SS God.

So, no, in the Manga, Saiyan beyond God doesn't exist.

It goes: Base < SS < SS God < SS Blue < Perfected SS Blue.

[szopman]

I follow the Manga canon, and in the manga, Goku achieves SS God with the ritual and retains the ability to achieve the form, without absorbing anything in base form. He only fough Beerus as a SS God.

So, no, in the Manga, Saiyan beyond God doesn't exist.

It goes: Base < SS < SS God < SS Blue < Perfected SS Blue.

If you only follow the manga canon, how would you explain the fact that Goku uses SbG in RoF manga ?

[DHM211]

I like to think it does. It certainly gives logic to the fact that Base Goku was able to overpower 4th form Frieza in Resurrection F(movie), and was able to fight evenly with 4th form Frieza in the Super Resurrection F, and that base copy Vegeta was able to overpower SSJ3 Gotenks. The way I look at it is God ki is like a switch, that is turned on and off. If a Saiyan turned on God ki in their base form, when they power up to SSJ, they turn Blue. If didn't turn on God ki in their base form, when they power up to SSJ, they just turn to regular SSJs.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I like to think it does. It certainly gives logic to the fact that Base Goku was able to overpower 4th form Frieza in Resurrection F(movie), and was able to fight evenly with 4th form Frieza in the Super Resurrection F, and that base copy Vegeta was able to overpower SSJ3 Gotenks. The way I look at it is God ki is like a switch, that is turned on and off. If a Saiyan turned on God ki in their base form, when they power up to SSJ, they turn Blue. If didn't turn on God ki in their base form, when they power up to SSJ, they just turn to regular SSJs.

I sorta see it the same way, except that I don't think that Saiyan Beyond God is a separate state of power from their normal base form, I just think it IS their base form and has been quietly retconned to not be at the level of SSG.

Also, I personally believe that they turn their Ki godly by keeping it from leaking in the SS form, but only then, which is why they don't have a God Ki base form and only a God Ki SS form.

[szopman]

If Ultimate Gohan state is a separate form than his normal base, why couldn't SbG state exist on the same conditions ?

[DHM211]

If Ultimate Gohan state is a separate form than his normal base, why couldn't SbG state exist on the same conditions ?

Exactly. When Gohan stated that Mystic/Ultimate was a separate form, I saw that as a way to justify the existence of Saiyan beyond God.

[MisteryOne]

I follow the Manga canon, and in the manga, Goku achieves SS God with the ritual and retains the ability to achieve the form, without absorbing anything in base form. He only fough Beerus as a SS God.

So, no, in the Manga, Saiyan beyond God doesn't exist.

It goes: Base < SS < SS God < SS Blue < Perfected SS Blue.

If you only follow the manga canon, how would you explain the fact that Goku uses SbG in RoF manga ?

That is not even part of the Super's manga...