My Greatest Concern Regarding DBS (the REAL issue)

[Boo Machine]

So when you tell me that the studio did not have enough time to schedule ahead so much that they could barely string 4 episodes together before airing - it doesn't mean shit.

It kinda does if someone is asking for the reasons the show the way it is or worse yet, spreading misinformation.
Can't ask for an explanation then brush it off like it doesn't matter when people are giving it.

From top to bottom the whole thing is just fucking garbage.

Ok. No one is saying you have to like it. But the whole point of this discussion wasn't to get you to like it. It was to explain why what's happening is happening because some people are missing some information. Now the information is out there. Whether you like the end product or not is a different conversation.

[PeanutSaiyan]

So when you tell me that the studio did not have enough time to schedule ahead so much that they could barely string 4 episodes together before airing - it doesn't mean shit.

It kinda does if someone is asking for the reasons the show the way it is or worse yet, spreading misinformation.
Can't ask for an explanation then brush it off like it doesn't matter when people are giving it.

From top to bottom the whole thing is just fucking garbage.

Ok. No one is saying you have to like it. But the whole point of this discussion wasn't to get you to like it. It was to explain why what's happening is happening because some people are missing some information. Now the information is out there. Whether you like the end product or not is a different conversation.

No, what you're offering is a very simple, cut and dry: Oh, it is the way it is because, well..xyz. What you're talking about is the technical aspect of planning and successfully executing a series on the animation side. My point is that the answer you are giving is very superficial and does not fully explain why the show looks like garbage most of the time. It's the idea that was behind the revival of the series (that clearly nobody gave two shits about DB, Z, or the fans), which contributed to the ridiculously understaffed, overworked, and lack of schedule when concerning the production.

[Boo Machine]

No, what you're offering is a very simple, cut and dry: Oh, it is the way it is because, well..xyz. What you're talking about is the technical aspect of planning and successfully executing a series on the animation side. My point is that the answer you are giving is very superficial and does not fully explain why the show looks like garbage most of the time.

What are you talking about? Ajay and plenty of others have given pretty much every possible detail both in this thread and others as to why it is the way it is. People asked why the animations is the way it is and they were given the answer and were even given some information to the anime industry as a whole. I'm not sure what further details you're looking for.

It's the idea that was behind the revival of the series (that clearly nobody gave two shits about DB, Z, or the fans except for their wallets), which contributed to the ridiculously understaffed, overworked, and lack of schedule when concerning the production.

Everyone knows DBS is a product used to sell merch. That's never been a secret. There's nothing to talk about there because it obvious.

[PeanutSaiyan]

No, what you're offering is a very simple, cut and dry: Oh, it is the way it is because, well..xyz. What you're talking about is the technical aspect of planning and successfully executing a series on the animation side. My point is that the answer you are giving is very superficial and does not fully explain why the show looks like garbage most of the time.

What are you talking about? Ajay and plenty of others have given pretty much every possible detail both in this thread and others as to why it is the way it is. People asked why the animations is the way it is and they were given the answer and were even given some information to the anime industry as a whole. I'm not sure what further details you're looking for.

It's the idea that was behind the revival of the series (that clearly nobody gave two shits about DB, Z, or the fans except for their wallets), which contributed to the ridiculously understaffed, overworked, and lack of schedule when concerning the production.

Everyone knows DBS is a product used to sell merch. That's never been a secret. There's nothing to talk about there because it obvious.

If you think there is nothing to talk about you can kindly go post somewhere else. I'm not even sure you are reading my posts at this point.

[Lord Beerus]

PeanutSaiyan, with all due respect, I think you should read the fantastic post from Ajay about the production state of Super. It's extremely detailed, well thought-out and very knowledgeable and I think you could do yourself a massive favor and read it from start to finish. Nobody is really making excuses. People are just using critical thinking to apply to a situation that really does require proper thought to give a concrete explanation for why certain things are happening/happened with Dragon Ball Super behind the scene. The quality of the writing is irrelevant to this scenario as that is purely subjective.

[Boo Machine]

If you think there is nothing to talk about you can kindly go post somewhere else. I'm not even sure you are reading my posts at this point.

Honestly, I wonder the same about you, but I assure you I am. I am just trying to explain to you that the reasons behind the production have been explained. Both in the technical aspect and the idea behind it. So it's odd for you to act like you haven't been given a proper explanation yet when it's in front of your face.

[PeanutSaiyan]

PeanutSaiyan, with all due respect, I think you should read the fantastic post from Ajay about the production state of Super. It's extremely detailed, well thought-out and very knowledgeable and I think you could do yourself a massive favor and read it from start to finish. Nobody is really making excuses. People are just using critical thinking to apply to a situation that really does require proper thought to give a concrete explanation for why certain things are happening/happened with Dragon Ball Super behind the scene. The quality of the writing is irrelevant to this scenario as that is purely subjective.

A) I have read it. And indeed, it is very detailed and well thought-out, and there is no part of my post that ignores anything that is said there. In fact, I used a lot of information from the post to make my point! I am only raising the the point that these are very technical things and to dismiss it as simply "Super looks like this because xyz" does not highlight the underlying reason as to why it looks and sounds the way it does. It is a very simple concept and perhaps if people weren't so quick to jump into arguments or to the defense of god knows who, there could be a discussion about it.

B) From my perspective, they are still excuses. I am not unreasonably pointing the finger solely on Toei OR the animation team. But animation is part of the recipe when making an anime and while you can outline the flaws in production that made it so, it was still made on the cheap. That implies a certain motive behind the production.

C) Good writing is not subjective. I'm sorry, you can get into all the "but art is art!" arguments all you want but the world simply does not agree with you. Good storytelling is an art form, one that is tried and true.

If you think there is nothing to talk about you can kindly go post somewhere else. I'm not even sure you are reading my posts at this point.

Honestly, I wonder the same about you, but I assure you I am. I am just trying to explain to you that the reasons behind the production have been explained. Both in the technical aspect and the idea behind it. So it's odd for you to act like you haven't been given a proper explanation yet when it's in front of your face.

Are you arguing for the sake of arguing? Very curious here.

[Boo Machine]

Are you arguing for the sake of arguing? Very curious here.

Again, I wonder the same about you, but I assure I am not. If anything I'm trying to do the opposite. Yes, I know I can just not respond, but I'm simply trying to talk to you and help with whatever information I can. Is that not the entire point of these forums? To talk?

[Jinzoningen MULE]

From my perspective, they are still excuses.

This statement doesn't make any sense. It's either an excuse with no substance, or it's an explanation, but it can only be one, and your point of view has no influence over which it happens to be. (Hint: It's an explanation)

[Lord Beerus]

PeanutSaiyan, with all due respect, I think you should read the fantastic post from Ajay about the production state of Super. It's extremely detailed, well thought-out and very knowledgeable and I think you could do yourself a massive favor and read it from start to finish. Nobody is really making excuses. People are just using critical thinking to apply to a situation that really does require proper thought to give a concrete explanation for why certain things are happening/happened with Dragon Ball Super behind the scene. The quality of the writing is irrelevant to this scenario as that is purely subjective.

A) I have read it. And indeed, it is very detailed and well thought-out, and there is no part of my post that ignores anything that is said there. In fact, I used a lot of information from the post to make my point! I am only raising the the point that these are very technical things and to dismiss it as simply "Super looks like this because xyz" does not highlight the underlying reason as to why it looks and sounds the way it does. It is a very simple concept and perhaps if people weren't so quick to jump into arguments or to the defense of god knows who, there could be a discussion about it.

B) From my perspective, they are still excuses. I am not unreasonably pointing the finger solely on Toei OR the animation team. But animation is part of the recipe when making an anime and while you can outline the flaws in production that made it so, it was still made on the cheap. That implies a certain motive behind the production.

C) Good writing is not subjective. I'm sorry, you can get into all the "but art is art!" arguments all you want but the world simply does not agree with you. Good storytelling is an art form, one that is tried and true.

I'm genuinely unsure as to whether you really read the post from Ajay because he actually goes into detail about why Super looked the way it did and how things got even worse the longer the show went one:

Jumping into a longrunning series requires an immense amount of preparation and planning before things begin to ensure a smooth running series. Super, unfortunately wasn't granted this necessity.

These types of series are governed by production committees, which include the top series rights holders like Shuiesha, the merchandisers like Bandai Namco, and the TV channels like Fuji TV. While Toei are on this committee too, they're at the behest of everyone involved. Due to the success of Resurrection 'F' and Kai coming to an end, there was not only a demand for more Dragon Ball, but a TV slot to be filled by July. This is ultimately what lead to the overwhelming pressure to create Dragon Ball Super then and there. Not only could the committee ride the wave of the incredibly popular movie, but they could grab Kai fans, and fling them right into a brand new series. While I'm sure everyone involved on the ground was screaming "Good god, this is an awful idea!", you have the business-driven folks like Mr. Kōzō Morishita thinking to themselves, "Well, it's not impossible if we retell the movies... A lot of the work is already done. I guess we can keep the committee happy." And so they tried it, and as we saw, it didn't exactly hold together.

This is a stark contrast to how Dragon Ball began. Dr Slump's anime had already been running from 1981 through to 1986. It had its own healthy pre-production, a solid schedule, and this simply continued into Dragon Ball and Z, only improving as supervisors were added, inbetweeners were promoted, etc, etc. That's not to say that those shows were at all perfect or consistent in how much time and/or talent was put into each episode, but it was at least a functionally sound production from the ground up. Like a proper longrunning series, the staff are supposed to be split up into teams who all have their own rotation times. Team A does episode 1, Team B does episode 2, Team C for 3, etc. When one team finishes their episode, they begin working on their next one which is many weeks ahead, while the other teams handle their own episodes in the mean time. It's a sound operation that allows these types of shows to run for years without collapsing. It does, however, require a good number of staff, or if that isn't possible, it requires a great deal of time and an adequate episode buffer to compensate.

Unfortunately, Dragon Ball Super didn't (and to an extent, still doesn't) have that type of production. When Super was announced, we had absolutely nothing to see until about a week before the show began. This was worrying at the time, but looking back, it should have been a horrifying alarm bell for everyone about what was about to come. Looking back at the PV they released, we can see about clips from episodes 1-4, alongside some tiny scenes animated exclusively for the preview. Four episodes at or nearing completion before a series like this begins is bad news. Not only is it woefully under a more reasonable buffer like 6 - 8 episodes, it doesn't provide any sort of safety net. What made things even worse was that despite the animation supervisors having regular rotation times, they didn't have exclusive teams of animators under them, working at the same schedule. Folks who worked on episode 1 popped up on episode 4. Even supervisors were doing work on episodes outside of their own. It was a total mess, and only got worse.

As we hit the main part of the Resurrection 'F' arc (around episode 22/23), Super hit its lowest point. We can actually see the specifics of the damage, too. A third party studio that Toei often use, Studio Wanpack, list their production details on their website. Episode 23 aired on December 13th, and began production in December, too. Their work on the second half of that episode had at most 11 days, but likely far less. It was absolutely catastrophic. The only reason it even managed to hit the air was because of the involvement of five other studios helping out. This is ultimately the theme for the next few episodes. In contrast, Fairy Tail, another longrunning show that uses Wanpack, had work for #276 that began in December, but didn't air until January 16th. Quite the difference!

So yes, while Dragon Ball Super runs in the same format as its predecessors, its production environment is totally incomparable.

Let's cover how the series recovered, then. One of the reasons why Toei were so up against it during those early arcs, aside from the aforementioned issues of time, was the lack of staff. Toei make a heck of a lot of shows, and Dragon Ball Super began airing during a very busy time for the company. One Piece had a special in the works, World Trigger was ramping up, PreCure was deep in production - the list goes on. The anime industry as a whole is sorely lacking in staff, too. Super couldn't immediately alleviate its issues by bringing in a load of staff - they just didn't exist at the time.

Ajay sums it up perfectly:

Frankly, I have no qualms with blaming Toei's upper management, to an extent, but they're not solely at fault, here. In my eyes, if you're going to direct your frustrations at someone, then it needs to be at the collective group who forced this series into production, and not just the company who mistakenly bent the knee, and have spent two years amending that mistake. By all means complain about Toei if you want to, but I expect just as much whining about Shueisha, Bandai Namco, and Fuji TV for getting greedy, and not using sense when looking to launch a new product. It made sense from a business perspective on paper, but the reality bit them in the ass.

[Asura]

I think Ajay has gone through great lengths and has done very well to answer my questions and disprove some of the assumptions I had about the production of Super. I'm sorry that some of my earlier posts may have come off as unknowledgeable rambling, but I still don't think the answers to these questions are as cut and dry as some people made them out to be. A few people early on here were basically saying that there is no discussion to be had, the topic is closed, etc. and that's exactly the type of attitude which annoys people and causes them to see things as excuses. You may have read the 600 page long Animation thread in its entirety, but others have not. It seemed that some were being attacked for not properly understanding how everything behind the scenes works, yet those people also didn't have the answers to people's questions.

I do still see excuses being made. I see them being made in this thread too. It's absolutely annoying and it drives me mad. I disagree with a lot of what PeanutSaiyan has to say, and I disagree with a lot of what that video in the OP had to say, but one area where I agree with them both on is that people are just too quick to defend TOEI whenever a decent episode or bit of animation comes along. When someone has to point that out and hype it up over and over, it feels like they're basically saying "HEY! LOOK HOW INCREDIBLE SUPER LOOKS! THERE'S NO REASON TO EVER BE COMPLAINING!" as if it somehow invalidates the majority of episodes and animation that looks incredibly mediocre or just downright bad. This then falls down into the excuses territory for why Super isn't as bad as it seems and why TOEI is never to blame and etc. Still, I appreciate the responses from people like Ajay and Boo Machine who were thorough in their explanations, and didn't try to defend or make excuses for why things look the way they do, but just to simply explain it without any kind of bias for or against TOEI.

[PeanutSaiyan]

I am not sure I am communicating correctly, because I am basically agreeing with what Ajay said? except that I am highlighting the fundamental difference between just pointing the finger at (or explaining away) Toei's staff and the underlying problem that the majority owners of the franchise rushed into this with only dollar signs in mind?

[neolux]

When someone has to point that out and hype it up over and over, it feels like they're basically saying "HEY! LOOK HOW INCREDIBLE SUPER LOOKS! THERE'S NO REASON TO EVER BE COMPLAINING!" as if it somehow invalidates the majority of episodes and animation that looks incredibly mediocre or just downright bad. This then falls down into the excuses territory for why Super isn't as bad as it seems and why TOEI is never to blame and etc.

I believe that people hype up a great cut or a good looking episode for the same reason other people complain non-stop everywhere (youtube comment section, facebook comment section, twitter, even here in this forum, etc,) about Super's animation, still complaining about ep. 5, saying that animators are lazy or unexperienced, believing false information, etc. It gets annoying too.

It's this negativity that makes people genuinely react in a positive way whenever we get a beautiful piece of animation, why wouldn't people be happy and hyped about it?

I understand where you're coming from: You've seen people hyping up over and over (which is normal in my opinion) Shida's cut and how good that episode looked overall.

From what I understand you get mad because you interpret people's happiness over Super's current state of production as to them saying and I quote: "HEY! LOOK HOW INCREDIBLE SUPER LOOKS! THERE'S NO REASON TO EVER BE COMPLAINING!"

I mean in my case I also get happy and hyped when we get beautiful cuts or a good looking episode, but at least I don't think any of these good or decent looking episodes we are having excuse the atrocious animation we've had before. Why would I think that? Those were bad looking episodes and that will never change. It wouldn't matter that TOEI from now on would produce magnificent looking episodes without flaws.

Now, what would be the correct reaction from people for you? That whenever we get a great cut or a very good looking episode people said: "This episode looked excellent, Shida's cut was impressive as always, oh but let's not forget about that horrendous ep. 5 or ep. 23, THAT was atrocious" ?

It would be the equivalent in real life if you do something to be proud of and people say "yes, you achieved this goal but lets remember when you screwed up, so don't get too happy boy"

I mean, would that reaction be something that wouldn't make you mad? I'm genuinely curious as to why people's reaction make you mad. Unless someone said directly: "Super is awesome and these episodes have made up for the horrendous looking ones." I don't see why you get mad when people hype up a good looking episode or a cut.

I apologize in advance if I misinterpreted you. I am open to debate and to accept if I misinterpreted something you said.

[JazzMazz]

I have a questions about the production myself.
How much control do the staff(animators, storyboarders, series directors etc) in anime studios have over which shows they work on? What draws and pushes away staff from working on shows, specifically Super for example. Why do staff stick or leave shows, specifically Super?
I think I have some basic answers to these questions, but I would like someone with far more in-depth knowledge to clarify the real answers.

[Saikyo no Senshi]

There's no one right answer, so it is hard to give an in-depth answer. It varies from series to series and depends on the nature of the production.

For the most part though, series director is the highest authority making all the creative decisions according to his/her vision. Episode directors(enshutsu) are also important and have more control over a particular episode from what I've seen. So, on an episode direction level they shape up the series as a whole. There are exceptions like mangakas/authors with a much more active role in the anime who don't give the anime staff much freedom, but they are exceptions and we do know Toriyama isn't like that.

As for what draws good staff, it is mostly connections. A director with contacts will attract good staff. We have seen that happen many times. Natsume Shingo in One Punch Man for example. Since most of the industry consists of freelancers and freelance workers will show up if they're acquainted with the main staff. Whether its the director or the production assistant or a fellow animator, they will come to help. That's how the industry at large functions.

In DBS' case, its hard to give in-depth answers unless someone has inside sources. Take Hatano and Chioka situation. Both left the show and one can only make educated guesses as to why they did. There's no proof. Some reasons you might have already guessed are cause they moved to better managed series or probably found work on a new project where they can implement their vision much better. The poor schedule and management of DBS definitely made things worse for them and was probably the deciding factor of their departure.

The nature of production of DBS is also a factor. It is a long running series and long running series are more team based and rotation focused. No long running has a consistent great team and a drop in quality is inevitable. The good staff are saved for the important moments and good freelancers if acquainted with the staff are brought on board to deliver. Wakabayashi episodes in NARUTO for example.

That's how I see it. Someone more knowledgeable might know more about this, so if I said something wrong, correct me.

[Asura]

When someone has to point that out and hype it up over and over, it feels like they're basically saying "HEY! LOOK HOW INCREDIBLE SUPER LOOKS! THERE'S NO REASON TO EVER BE COMPLAINING!" as if it somehow invalidates the majority of episodes and animation that looks incredibly mediocre or just downright bad. This then falls down into the excuses territory for why Super isn't as bad as it seems and why TOEI is never to blame and etc.

I believe that people hype up a great cut or a good looking episode for the same reason other people complain non-stop everywhere (youtube comment section, facebook comment section, twitter, even here in this forum, etc,) about Super's animation, still complaining about ep. 5, saying that animators are lazy or unexperienced, believing false information, etc. It gets annoying too.

It's this negativity that makes people genuinely react in a positive way whenever we get a beautiful piece of animation, why wouldn't people be happy and hyped about it?

I understand where you're coming from: You've seen people hyping up over and over (which is normal in my opinion) Shida's cut and how good that episode looked overall.

From what I understand you get mad because you interpret people's happiness over Super's current state of production as to them saying and I quote: "HEY! LOOK HOW INCREDIBLE SUPER LOOKS! THERE'S NO REASON TO EVER BE COMPLAINING!"

I mean in my case I also get happy and hyped when we get beautiful cuts or a good looking episode, but at least I don't think any of these good or decent looking episodes we are having excuse the atrocious animation we've had before. Why would I think that? Those were bad looking episodes and that will never change. It wouldn't matter that TOEI from now on would produce magnificent looking episodes without flaws.

Now, what would be the correct reaction from people for you? That whenever we get a great cut or a very good looking episode people said: "This episode looked excellent, Shida's cut was impressive as always, oh but let's not forget about that horrendous ep. 5 or ep. 23, THAT was atrocious" ?

It would be the equivalent in real life if you do something to be proud of and people say "yes, you achieved this goal but lets remember when you screwed up, so don't get too happy boy"

I mean, would that reaction be something that wouldn't make you mad? I'm genuinely curious as to why people's reaction make you mad. Unless someone said directly: "Super is awesome and these episodes have made up for the horrendous looking ones." I don't see why you get mad when people hype up a good looking episode or a cut.

I apologize in advance if I misinterpreted you. I am open to debate and to accept if I misinterpreted something you said.

I understand the point you're making, but I'm not referring to just the people who say "Wow! That looked good!" but rather the people who I've seen say things like "Super doesn't have animation issues anymore just look at the Vegetto vs Zamasu fight". That's the type of stuff that's just incredibly annoying, using one or two good examples of animation hyped up over and over again (hell someone here was claiming it was possibly the best cut in ALL of anime) which is then sometimes accompanied by "And that's why none of this stuff is an issue anymore!" when yes, it is still an issue. Episode 96 proved that it's still an issue. Certainly not as big as an issue as it used to be, there's no denying that. But for some to wave their hand like all problems have been solved because of the examples of a few scenes, c'mon now.

[Zagacious]

I understand the point you're making, but I'm not referring to just the people who say "Wow! That looked good!" but rather the people who I've seen say things like "Super doesn't have animation issues anymore just look at the Vegetto vs Zamasu fight". That's the type of stuff that's just incredibly annoying, using one or two good examples of animation hyped up over and over again (hell someone here was claiming it was possibly the best cut in ALL of anime) which is then sometimes accompanied by "And that's why none of this stuff is an issue anymore!" when yes, it is still an issue. Episode 96 proved that it's still an issue. Certainly not as big as an issue as it used to be, there's no denying that. But for some to wave their hand like all problems have been solved because of the examples of a few scenes, c'mon now.

It actually does really annoy me when I talk about how great the recent episodes animation/art have been, and then tons of people come in and say "What are you talking about it's always looked great??!" .. like come on now we're not just saying these things out of nowhere, there is an OBVIOUS difference in quality in the last few episodes in comparison to early DBS and Black Goku. I don't understand why those type of people even participate in discussions honestly if they're not going to analyze the series even for one second then why discuss it.

I also kind of find it humorous the Zamasu vs Vegetto reference.. yes the art and animation was 'okay' for that battle, but that doesn't mean the rest of the Black Goku arc had good animation, in fact the rest of it was pretty terrible IMO, and I'm not even one to usually criticize animation.

Now episode 96 was slightly worse than the ones before it, but it still has a higher standard and consistency that we didn't really see in the two areas of DBS I mentioned previously.