My Greatest Concern Regarding DBS (the REAL issue)

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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My Greatest Concern Regarding DBS (the REAL issue)

Post by Kastex » Fri Jun 23, 2017 8:31 pm

This video pretty much explains everything (how do i display video streams in the thread?)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbRBHJuhRbE

honestly, this has been a problem for me since the starting of dragon ball super. i often tried to ignore it, which was stupid of me. i've always accepted it, since what's done is done, but it's nothing that should be ignored. to put it plainly, i've rarely been satisfied with any DBS animation and art style quality before episode 94. actually, i'm not sure if i was ever satisfied. one of the main reasons i decided to look past these issues is because the episodes were already put out. i think dragon ball super is an enjoyable anime with an incredible amount of potential, so seeing it get dragged through the mud by crap, lazy, uninterested artists made me feel a bit hopeless for it.

i know animation is hard work, but if you think about just how much money they are making, and the kind of animation quality that other studios can put out, it becomes reasonable to demand far more from dragon ball super. this legendary, iconic franchise that has touched over a billion lives since its inception. many of those lives lost long before dragon ball super was announced. what would they think seeing this kind of quality in 2015+? what of those who died after being exposed to the reveal of dragon ball super? what if they died in sorrow because all they wanted to do before death was watch dragon ball super. imagine how they would feel knowing that the source of their sorrow, their last dying wish, was drawn like this?

what is stated in that video is true. i don't know what the budget for dragon ball super is, but there is no excuse for the majority of the animation and art style quality being sub par relative to what we would expect from the revival of this iconic franchise. my greatest concern regarding dbs is toei. it is beyond a disgrace for even one viewer to be concerned with these matters.

that being said. i've definitely noticed the animation and art style quality since episode 94 has been getting much better relative to the rest of the series. this gives me hope from now on at least. that being said (again), the main reason this is a concern is because the animation and art style has been good for key areas of the series, but then got shit again soon after. they do this all of the time.

so what do you guys think? agree, disagree? got any concerns of your own?

__________________________________________________________

(a little off topic) i think this is the worst with one piece. sure, it's a long series, but it's complete garbage now. i have no idea why people keep on buying it. at least half of each arc since the time skip has been incredibly boring (story wise). the art style and animation in the anime just makes it much worse.

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Re: My Greatest Concern Regarding DBS (the REAL issue)

Post by Asura » Fri Jun 23, 2017 9:09 pm

I saw that video just yesterday I think, actually. I think he's a bit too harsh but I do agree with him. People have been trying to defend Super's art and animation since its conception, but there's really nothing worth defending. I think this new arc has done a very satisfactory job on both the art and animation front, so it seems like they're finally learning. However, the video brought up a good point. One Piece and Dragon Ball are the two most popular animes in the world/Japan. I believe they're also in the top 10 for most profitable animes. The fact that the art and animation is done so half-assed most of the time doesn't make any sense. It just seems very greedy to me that they would cut so much corners when it comes to One Piece and Super, which is arguably their biggest source of revenue.

When comparing Z and Super's art and animation, there is simply no comparison. Z beats Super 99.9% of the time. An anime from the 90s has better art and animation than one from 2015 - 2017. Kinda reminds me of another anime I know *cough* Berserk *cough* (but Super is absolutely nowhere near as bad as that).

People always make excuses for why Super can't look good, such as scheduling, overworked animators, etc. yet it seems like only Toei has this issue. Other companies are able to pump out some really nice stuff week to week, yet when you look at Super and One Piece... bleh. Like I said, I'm glad that Super is finally getting some nice art and animation this arc, but we're in the 90s now in terms of episode count. Why on Earth did it take this long for things to start changing?

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Re: My Greatest Concern Regarding DBS (the REAL issue)

Post by Cipher » Fri Jun 23, 2017 9:23 pm

The first and last word on Super's animation problems and why they exist.

(Have we transcended language to the point where we only communicate in YouTube links now? The talking has already been done for us.)

Super's real problem is its shitty, inconsistent approach to character-writing.

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Re: My Greatest Concern Regarding DBS (the REAL issue)

Post by Yomi » Fri Jun 23, 2017 9:27 pm

Kastex wrote: what if they died in sorrow because all they wanted to do before death was watch dragon ball super. imagine how they would feel knowing that the source of their sorrow, their last dying wish, was drawn like this?
Woah woah woah woah.... slow down there. It's a cartoon.
But yes, I too am disappointed by the quality of Super; but I don't agree with some of the points in this video though.

This Clyde fellow is riding on that Bleach phallus a bit too hard. Also I did watch Naruto Shippuden, and it did NOT look good most of the time.
It was also pretty disappointing, probably as much as DBS. The only reason I think this guy is defending perriot is because of bleach.

Although I agree with some points the HxH/OPM/Madhouse dyckriding gets unoriginal and repetitive sometimes if you frequent anime communities.

I think another point would be the character designs. Shows like HxH/OPM have pretty generic looking characters.
I'm not saying it's bad or not creative. I'm just saying it looks very "anime" in comparison to One Piece and Dragon Ball,
so the learning curve for animators might be a bit more steep.
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Re: My Greatest Concern Regarding DBS (the REAL issue)

Post by Ajay » Fri Jun 23, 2017 9:39 pm

That video is a terribly misinformed piece of rubbish that nobody should ever pay any attention to. Ever. It's an embarrassment to the absolute highest degree.

- Hiring second rate animators

No, they really don't. A large chunk of Toei Animation's in-house staff are actually rather talented, and some of their directors have great contacts with seriously talented inviduals outside of the company.

- Reusing sound effects from Dragon Ball in One Piece

Hironori Arai isn't from Toei, he's from Fizz Sound Creation. He's the guy who creates the sound effects for both Dragon Ball and One Piece. He has a certain style, and while he certainly reuses things here and there, he's created plenty of unique effects for One Piece.

Dragon Ball Super does not use Arai's work. It has its own sound artist from the same studio, Mutsuhiro Nishimura. There's no conflict here.

- One chapter per episode

One Piece is an ongoing series, just as One Piece is an ongoing anime. These shows run all year round because they're promotional material for the manga. It is not the product. It cannot just go off the air.

They drag things out so as to not catch up to the manga. If things begin to get too stretched, they create filler arcs. This is standard practise.

It is not done to "milk the series", it is simply the nature of the beast. There's no Toei boogeyman.

- Why don't they just extend the fight scenes instead of creating filler?!

Animation takes a heck of a lot of time. Extended fight scenes for episodes at a time are not possible under even the best of studios - even those who create series as short as 11 episodes many months in advance.

You have downtime episodes to allow time to be put into the action-orientated episodes that really count.

If you want action episode after action episode, you'll end up hitting Dragon Ball Super Episode 24 levels of awful pretty quickly, before eventually resorting to nothing but stills. It's impossible without building up an astronomical buffer of episodes in advance.

- Openings and recaps are so long!

One Piece does not have EDs. The actual episode time works out roughly the same, with some exceptions.

- Toei were too lazy to bring Cell back

Cell did not have his own movie because he was never even once considered. This guy is taking a comment made in jest by Z animators about how taxing it was to animate Cell's spots back in the day, and trying to twist into animators being lazy. That is totally disingenous and untrue.

- B-But Madhouse!!

Hunter x Hunter was a long show, but it was not a longrunning show like One Piece and Dragon Ball are. It has a finite number of episodes and was planned for accordingly. Totally different production model.

Studio Pierrot's success with Naruto and Bleach is due to a very healthy production and the directors having good contacts with very talented stuff. Many Toei shows have this, including One Piece. Dragon Ball Super has unfortunately had the short end of the stick in terms of its production time.

However, neither Naruto or Bleach were as perfect as he is making them out to be, and he certainly doesn't help his case by cherrypicking zoomed-in longshots and inbetweens. That is asinine to the core.

- Budget Meme

That's not how animation works.

- Toei fucked up Dragon Ball!

Well... sort of, but not realy. You can hear more about that here. Thanks to Cipher for already linking it.
that being said. i've definitely noticed the animation and art style quality since episode 94 has been getting much better relative to the rest of the series. this gives me hope from now on at least. that being said (again), the main reason this is a concern is because the animation and art style has been good for key areas of the series, but then got shit again soon after. they do this all of the time.
The animation hasn't been a major concern since the Future Trunks arc ended, and even then, that arc was mostly fine. There are still issues here and there, and the animators are absolutely up against the clock at all times, but things are a lot better now.

The past two episodes of Super have been especially strong because they featured several of Toei's strongest animators. Episode quality can vary depending on the supervisor, the key animators, the time they have, and of course the content itself.

Things won't magically become consistently perfect. You'll see ups and downs like any show, but you most likely won't ever be seeing full on collapses like those found throughout Super's earliest arcs.

-

Please never pay attention to anything that person or anyone like him has to say. If you're interested in learning about the animation industry, I strongly recommend the wonderful work the folks over at Sakugablog have been doing.

If you're interested in Dragon Ball Super in particular, then be sure to check in on my own thread right here on this forum. Join us and don't be afraid to ask a million questions. I'd much rather people do that than blindly rant nonsense for 7 minutes like the video you linked.

Super's problematic, but uninformed hyperbolic rhetoric and memes are not the way to go about addressing it.
Follow me on Twitter for countless shitposts.

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Re: My Greatest Concern Regarding DBS (the REAL issue)

Post by ChaosLordBrandon » Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:00 pm

Ajay solo this thread. wonderful post friend!

How has the animation even looked remotely bad in this arc to? I have seen pretty much zero animations complaints since this arc began to. :?

maybe it's because I just go to a couple db places tho.

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Re: My Greatest Concern Regarding DBS (the REAL issue)

Post by The gr » Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:15 pm

ChaosLordBrandon wrote:Ajay solo this thread. wonderful post friend!

How has the animation even looked remotely bad in this arc to? I have seen pretty much zero animations complaints since this arc began to. :?

maybe it's because I just go to a couple db places tho.
Well there's one complaint, episode 82, I think people complained that episode animation for the wrong Reason,is really bad art by Kitano and not animation,I'm referring near at the end of the episode when Goku and Beerus is arguing other than that this arc have decent animation and I'm expecting great things for the
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Re: My Greatest Concern Regarding DBS (the REAL issue)

Post by Miracles » Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:20 pm

Without TOEI Dragonball Z really wouldn't be as great. The anime was top tier even when the episodes had low budget art.
Dragonball Super is good when TOEI is on it's game. Can you compare any other anime fight scene with Vegetto vs Zamasu?
Beerus blowing away Zamasu?
Talk about drag? One Piece is a bad manga. The manga itself drags and what do you expect TOEI to do? Especially when three chapter make up an episode.

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Re: My Greatest Concern Regarding DBS (the REAL issue)

Post by ChaosLordBrandon » Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:22 pm

The gr wrote:
ChaosLordBrandon wrote:Ajay solo this thread. wonderful post friend!

How has the animation even looked remotely bad in this arc to? I have seen pretty much zero animations complaints since this arc began to. :?

maybe it's because I just go to a couple db places tho.
Well there's one complaint, episode 82, I think people complained that episode animation for the wrong Reason,is really bad art by Kitano and not animation,I'm referring near at the end of the episode when Goku and Beerus is arguing other than that this arc have decent animation and I'm expecting great things for the Top
LMAO that one time when Beerus look like a dog, is one really the only time I saw people complained about the art.

And this arc has been 20 or 21 episodes so far? That's MUCH MUCH BETTER compared to the arcs before this one besides the Future Trunks where I saw people doing that every 3 to 2 episodes.

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Re: My Greatest Concern Regarding DBS (the REAL issue)

Post by Asura » Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:35 pm

Miracles wrote:Can you compare any other anime fight scene with Vegetto vs Zamasu?
Woah now, the fight scene was good, but you are giving it WAY too much praise. There are tons of incredible fight scenes from different animes that completely trump that scene. One Punch Man in particular has a fight every single episode I believe, and every single one of those fight scenes are 100x better than the Vegetto vs Zamasu scene. Obviously One Punch Man is given a lot more time to animate than Super is, but the point still stands.

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Re: My Greatest Concern Regarding DBS (the REAL issue)

Post by Yomi » Fri Jun 23, 2017 11:20 pm

Asura wrote:but you are giving it WAY too much praise.

Also
Asura wrote:every single one of those fight scenes are 100x better than the Vegetto vs Zamasu scene.


Don't be a hypocrite now. I've watched one punch man, and there's a lot of still frames and cutting corners in its animation.
Also these scenes are very short. Let's not deify one punch man. I thought the anime community as a whole was past that stage.
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Re: My Greatest Concern Regarding DBS (the REAL issue)

Post by Asura » Sat Jun 24, 2017 1:35 am

Yomi wrote:
Asura wrote:but you are giving it WAY too much praise.

Also
Asura wrote:every single one of those fight scenes are 100x better than the Vegetto vs Zamasu scene.


Don't be a hypocrite now. I've watched one punch man, and there's a lot of still frames and cutting corners in its animation.
Also these scenes are very short. Let's not deify one punch man. I thought the anime community as a whole was past that stage.
I'm not being a hypocrite at all. If you honestly think One Punch Man doesn't have incredible animation, then I'm not even sure what to tell you. Don't hate on something simply because it's popular. Also most fights are 3 and a half minutes, which is around the same time as the Vegetto vs Zamasu scene

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Re: My Greatest Concern Regarding DBS (the REAL issue)

Post by Yomi » Sat Jun 24, 2017 1:54 am

Asura wrote: I'm not being a hypocrite at all. If you honestly think One Punch Man doesn't have incredible animation, then I'm not even sure what to tell you. Don't hate on something simply because it's popular. Also most fights are 3 and a half minutes, which is around the same time as the Vegetto vs Zamasu scene
The animation can be incredible, and not 100x better than Vegito vs Zamasu in every scene. That's all I'm saying.
You're giving it way too much praise.
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Re: My Greatest Concern Regarding DBS (the REAL issue)

Post by Bansho64 » Sat Jun 24, 2017 3:30 am

Asura wrote: Woah now, the fight scene was good, but you are giving it WAY too much praise. There are tons of incredible fight scenes from different animes that completely trump that scene. One Punch Man in particular has a fight every single episode I believe, and every single one of those fight scenes are 100x better than the Vegetto vs Zamasu scene. Obviously One Punch Man is given a lot more time to animate than Super is, but the point still stands.
Agreed. Vegetto vs Zamasu was good, but there's still hundreds of other anime fights that top it. That's including some scenes from the previous Dragon Ball series. And, honestly, that fight isn't even Shida at his best IMO.

To add to the list, YuYu Hakusho has a lot of fights that trump Vegetto vs Zamasu as well. Especially scenes like this or this.

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Re: My Greatest Concern Regarding DBS (the REAL issue)

Post by avasatu » Sat Jun 24, 2017 3:50 am

My greatest concerns to date, in no particular order:

As you said, animation quality and consistency, for the most part.

The fact that SSB appears to be only marginally stronger than SS3 in fights, but feat/power-wise it has to be in a completely different league, as stated by the show multiple times. This has been a nightmare for me for a long time, and is perhaps my single greatest issue with the show.

The threats are either artificial/contrived or don't mean anything, except for the upcoming tournament. I like the show quite a lot at this point, so I'm going to only address my issues up until episode 90ish.

Music isn't Faulconer (lol, but half serious).

Goku's Japanese voice sucks to me. Always has.

Frieza's resurrection was insanely stupid, as was the Gohan/Piccolo/Tagoma power scaling debacle, Goku powering down enough to be hit by a laser, and several other things.

Black arc was dope for the most part I think, and then that awful ending. The manga is doing a much better job with it, but it's still going to end with "Zeno hax." Zamasu should have just won, driven himself mad with boredom after he executed his plan due to have Goku's cells, then had Zeno execute him after admitting he was wrong. That would have been legendary.

KKx10 Goku not obliterating Hit makes no sense. He was stated to be weaker than SSB even post-improvement, then Goku gets 10x stronger, punches him square in the face, and he's fine. Killed the moment.

Power-scaling is tougher than it should be, and we're given less info than we could be about some pretty important ki/power concepts. On top of that suppression is running wild in this show without being mentioned, and some of the power statements we do get are totally incomplete or could be interpreted in too many ways. It's too cryptic.

Roshi/Tien/Yamcha suck.

Forgetting the Mafuba seal? What?

Bad sound effects for exchanges of blows; the show doesn't make me feel those insanely hard punches. Devastating attacks are often poorly animated and shown to have some of the worst area of effect ever. No wonder people wank Saitama, OPM actually animates attack damage. Yea, yea Goku and co. have insanely good control over their ki, I know. *yawn.*

U6 Saiyans drive me nuts for so many reasons that I won't even get into it.

Gohan power asspull, provided he is in fact near SSB Goku, which I still doubt.

Mortal being stronger than a GoD stronger than Beerus, provided said mortal is in the tournament. Ruins the forecasted rematch between Goku and Beerus, philosophically.

Much more, bored of typing. Still hyped on the show big time.

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Re: My Greatest Concern Regarding DBS (the REAL issue)

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Sat Jun 24, 2017 10:35 am

Miracles wrote:Without TOEI Dragonball Z really wouldn't be as great. The anime was top tier even when the episodes had low budget art.
Dragonball Super is good when TOEI is on it's game. Can you compare any other anime fight scene with Vegetto vs Zamasu?
Beerus blowing away Zamasu?
Talk about drag? One Piece is a bad manga. The manga itself drags and what do you expect TOEI to do? Especially when three chapter make up an episode.
I think DBS has animation that is on point with and better than Z in some cases. Z was it's worst during the Freeza arc and the strongest during the Buu arc and DBS is following a similar path with this current arc, it is the most consistent good looking one we have had so far.

At this point I am astounded that animation in DBS is a still complaint.

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Re: My Greatest Concern Regarding DBS (the REAL issue)

Post by Yomi » Sat Jun 24, 2017 10:49 am

Bansho64 wrote: To add to the list, YuYu Hakusho has a lot of fights that trump Vegetto vs Zamasu as well. Especially scenes like this or this.
Really? Do you really think so? I don't think these scenes top Vegito vs Zamasu, but I do know some Yu Yu Hakusho Scenes that do. Like Hiei vs Zeru
or maybe Yusuke vs Yomi <- maybe I'm biased because I really love Yomi. Heck even Yusuke vs Sensui when he transforms into Mazoku looks better.

I'm just saying these cuts in particular don't really convince me that it's better than Vegito vs Zamasu.
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Re: My Greatest Concern Regarding DBS (the REAL issue)

Post by Bansho64 » Sat Jun 24, 2017 12:59 pm

Yomi wrote: Really? Do you really think so? I don't think these scenes top Vegito vs Zamasu, but I do know some Yu Yu Hakusho Scenes that do. Like Hiei vs Zeru
or maybe Yusuke vs Yomi <- maybe I'm biased because I really love Yomi. Heck even Yusuke vs Sensui when he transforms into Mazoku looks better.

I'm just saying these cuts in particular don't really convince me that it's better than Vegito vs Zamasu.
Yeah. Yeah, I really do think so.

Like you said, there are better cuts than the ones I posted, but those are just the bare minimum. Some of the really good ones in the show actually are 100x better than the Vegetto vs Zamasu fight, just like someone stated earlier.

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Re: My Greatest Concern Regarding DBS (the REAL issue)

Post by Asura » Sat Jun 24, 2017 4:03 pm

Yomi wrote:
Asura wrote: I'm not being a hypocrite at all. If you honestly think One Punch Man doesn't have incredible animation, then I'm not even sure what to tell you. Don't hate on something simply because it's popular. Also most fights are 3 and a half minutes, which is around the same time as the Vegetto vs Zamasu scene
The animation can be incredible, and not 100x better than Vegito vs Zamasu in every scene. That's all I'm saying.
You're giving it way too much praise.
I'm not giving it way too much praise at all. The fight scenes simply look way better. They're given way more time to look better. There's no way an anime like Super on its weekly schedule would ever be able to compare.

Speaking of comparisons, here's an excerpt from the Vegetto vs Zamasu fight in 60fps:
[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

Here's an excerpt from the Saitama vs Boros fight in 60fps, which I don't think is the best animated fight in OPM, but still very good:
[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

Now, do you actually think that the Vegetto vs Zamasu fight is even remotely on the same level? There's no way it could be. Even the parts of the fight that rival some of the Saitama vs Boros fight in animation only last a few quick seconds. The Vegetto vs Zamasu fight is very well animated, but it can never beat an anime like OPM that's only 12 episodes and doesn't have to crank an episode out every single week.

And before someone accuses me of it, I'm definitely not expecting that kind of animation quality from OPM in Super. There's just no way it can happen. The point is, which is basically the main point of OPs video, is that One Piece and Super have these episodes like Vegetto vs Zamasu where it looks great, and almost every other fight will just be incredibly mediocre or poor. The quality is wildly inconsistent, and we get much more mediocrity/poorness than we do something like a Vegetto vs Zamasu fight. However, so far the fights in the Universal Survival Arc have been ranging anywhere from decent to fantastic. I suspect we'll eventually see animation on par with Vegetto vs Zamasu or better once we enter the tournament tonight, which they've had a long while to work on. Hell, the art and animation last week was basically on par with it too.

I love the fact that they're finally getting their shit together, but the question remains as to why it's taken this long for them to start getting it together.

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Re: My Greatest Concern Regarding DBS (the REAL issue)

Post by PeanutSaiyan » Sat Jun 24, 2017 4:15 pm

Yomi wrote:
Bansho64 wrote: To add to the list, YuYu Hakusho has a lot of fights that trump Vegetto vs Zamasu as well. Especially scenes like this or this.
Really? Do you really think so? I don't think these scenes top Vegito vs Zamasu, but I do know some Yu Yu Hakusho Scenes that do. Like Hiei vs Zeru
or maybe Yusuke vs Yomi <- maybe I'm biased because I really love Yomi. Heck even Yusuke vs Sensui when he transforms into Mazoku looks better.

I'm just saying these cuts in particular don't really convince me that it's better than Vegito vs Zamasu.
I don't even know why you're giving the Vegito vs Zamasu fight so much praise in the first place. The fight choreography is weak and the scene really fails to display any sort of sense of power from what are supposed to be 2 near omnipotent beings in the Dragonball universe, and stylistically it was pretty cookie cutter type of stuff. It's pretty weak and I hate to pull the "it's better in Z" card but there are a few fights in Z that easily trump Vegito vs Zamasu. It just kind of looks pretty and that's even more highlighted by the fact that the series looks like shit for the most part.

Also, for some reason people love rushing to Toei's defense as to why Super looks like garbage and make excuses concerning the production/budget/schedule but to be honest I simply don't give a fuck. If anything it's more evidence that Toei is cutting more corners which speaks volumes about where they stand with the franchise.
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