My Greatest Concern Regarding DBS (the REAL issue)

[SansrivaaL]

It all depends on scheduling/how much time they have, tho it is also true that I have yet to see (in terms of animation) Toei reach the likes of KyoAni nor MadHouse when it comes to their best but thats mainly because Toei has a lot of on going anime's while MadHouse and KyoAni focuses on one to three anime's per season, but its not really much of a big thing for me as ever since Black arc started the animation really kicked it up a notch, now onto this arc and I have yet to see a bad animated episode (besides some derpy Kitano art like Beerus Scooby Doo but I can manage)
Well I'm not really sure if what I said and how I see it is right so if anything's wrong with how I see it then by all means please correct me

[Asura]

Also, for some reason people love rushing to Toei's defense as to why Super looks like garbage and make excuses concerning the production/budget/schedule but to be honest I simply don't give a fuck.

Yeah, that's kind of how I feel at times. I really could care less for all the excuses. I don't want to hear them and they don't even make sense to begin with. They were able to put out a consistently good (not great, not amazing, but good) product in the past in Z every week, and now we're lucky to get some decent Z quality art and animation once every two months (well, not now, but before this arc started). Then you'll hear the excuse of "Well the anime industry has changed a lot since then!" but the reality is that Toei has changed a lot since then, almost every other company has only gotten better.

[Boo Machine]

Yeah, that's kind of how I feel at times. I really could care less for all the excuses. I don't want to hear them and they don't even make sense to begin with. They were able to put out a consistently good (not great, not amazing, but good) product in the past in Z every week, and now we're lucky to get some decent Z quality art and animation once every two months (well, not now, but before this arc started). Then you'll hear the excuse of "Well the anime industry has changed a lot since then!" but the reality is that Toei has changed a lot since then, almost every other company has only gotten better.

It's a little bit different in Super's case. Super didn't have enough pre production and was rushed out the door way too soon which has caused massive problems that go on today. Not using that as an excuse or to defend anything as that shouldn't have happened in the first place. But it's not really like the staff just decided to half ass everything because laziness or whatever like some folks like to assume. At least when it comes to the animation or art.

[precita]

Guys, Super hasn't looked like garbage for the last 50+ episodes. The last episode I remember truly looking lackluster was during the Piccolo Vs. Frost fight...you know how long ago that was now? The animation improved tremendously towards the end of the Champa tournament, and then even more in the Zamasu arc, and now even more in the current saga.

Sure we'll still get the occasional off-model shots and scenes that look rushed, but that's to be expected. I literally don't know what people are expecting now, have you guys forgotten when Super really did look like trash during the Return of F episodes? Thank god we have the movies to watch the first two arcs of Super in so we don't have to deal with terrible animation when we want to rewatch those stories.

[sintzu]

Studio Pierrot's success with Naruto and Bleach is due to a very healthy production and the directors having good contacts with very talented stuff. Many Toei shows have this, including One Piece. Dragon Ball Super has unfortunately had the short end of the stick in terms of its production time.

Which is inexcusable at this point. Super is 2 years in and has proven to be a very financially successful show for the franchise so why is it till suffering from production issues ? Then you have the terrable writing, both in and outside of Toriyama's arcs which makes things even worse. Another issue is the pacing, One Piece following a manga has that as an excuse but what's Super's ?

I think the main difference between Toei and Pierrot's staff is that pierrot likes the stories their working on while Toei's staff look at DB as nothing more than a stupid kid's commercial that isn't worth their time.

[PeanutSaiyan]

Studio Pierrot's success with Naruto and Bleach is due to a very healthy production and the directors having good contacts with very talented stuff. Many Toei shows have this, including One Piece. Dragon Ball Super has unfortunately had the short end of the stick in terms of its production time.

I think the main difference between Toei and Pierrot's staff is that pierrot likes the stories their working on while Toei's staff look at DB as nothing more than a stupid kid's commercial that isn't worth their time.

That is the biggest difference in comparing the two studios. There is clearly a lack of enthusiasm for the series from a production standpoint.

Guys, Super hasn't looked like garbage for the last 50+ episodes. The last episode I remember truly looking lackluster was during the Piccolo Vs. Frost fight...you know how long ago that was now? The animation improved tremendously towards the end of the Champa tournament, and then even more in the Zamasu arc, and now even more in the current saga.

Blind fanboyism is strong.

[Boo Machine]

Guys, Super hasn't looked like garbage for the last 50+ episodes. The last episode I remember truly looking lackluster was during the Piccolo Vs. Frost fight...you know how long ago that was now? The animation improved tremendously towards the end of the Champa tournament, and then even more in the Zamasu arc, and now even more in the current saga.

Blind fanboyism is strong.

Not really. Just pointing out that Super looks better now then it used to. Which is true, regardless how you feel about it. Also It's not necessary to be calling people fan boys to dismiss them. If you feel differently then you can just say so without insults.

[sintzu]

Super didn't have enough pre production and was rushed out the door way too soon which has caused massive problems that go on today.

Which was understandable during its first episodes but we're 100 in now. How long do they need to get things in order ?

That is the biggest difference in comparing the two studios. There is clearly a lack of enthusiasm for the series from a production standpoint.

There's no comparison between the 2. Shippuden's staff took 3 weeks to work on Naruto and Sasuke's final battle and even went as far as to bring on Boruto's movie staff (I think the director as well) to be in charge of the 2 episodes. That's something you'll never see Toei do today.

[Asura]

Guys, Super hasn't looked like garbage for the last 50+ episodes. The last episode I remember truly looking lackluster was during the Piccolo Vs. Frost fight...you know how long ago that was now? The animation improved tremendously towards the end of the Champa tournament, and then even more in the Zamasu arc, and now even more in the current saga.

Sure we'll still get the occasional off-model shots and scenes that look rushed, but that's to be expected. I literally don't know what people are expecting now, have you guys forgotten when Super really did look like trash during the Return of F episodes? Thank god we have the movies to watch the first two arcs of Super in so we don't have to deal with terrible animation when we want to rewatch those stories.

I don't think most people here believe the animation and art looks bad in this current arc, but it has certainly been extremely lackluster in the other arcs. The Future Trunks arc had some really nice moments (Black vs Trunks, Rose & Zamasu vs Trunks, Vegetto vs Zamasu, etc.) but also some really ugly moments. It was pretty inconsistent. I'm not satisfied with the Future Trunks arc as a whole from an art and animation standpoint. Just as the OP video says, a few great episodes isn't enough to make up for the majority being mediocre episodes. I'd rather consistently good animation than mostly mediocre/poor animation with a few great moments. (with fights that last 2 minutes because this is Super : /)

There's just no excuse, like sintzu was saying, as to why these issues are only finally starting to be ironed out 2 years later.

[Boo Machine]

Super didn't have enough pre production and was rushed out the door way too soon which has caused massive problems that go on today.

Which was understandable during its first episodes but we're 100 in now. How long do they need to get things in order ?

Do you think the staff wants to be in a shitty situation that puts strain on their work? If it was that simple it would be done by now. If Super was a seasonal anime, then you'd have a point. But it's not it's a constant stream of episodes that never stops except for the occasional break. All that time is spent just making the episodes with very little of it being used as breathing room to get things back in order.

And it obvious to see that they are making progress, but that doesn't mean it's in an ideal spot. Throwing money at it isn't going to fix it either. If someone really talented doesn't have time to produce something to the best of their abilities then they aren't going to produce something to the best of their abilities. These people aren't programs that need a patch to work better. The sad truth is that things may not be in an ideal spot any time soon if ever. Animation is a bitch and long running weekly animation even more so. Especially with a shitty start like the one Super got.

There's just no excuse, like sintzu was saying, as to why these issues are only finally starting to be ironed out 2 years later.

Things aren't JUST getting ironed out. It's a gradual thing. There is no instant fix to the cluster fuck that is Supers production. It's just something that needs to be worked on slowly.

[sintzu]

Another issue with the animation is how off everything seems when characters are walking, talking, etc. I can't put my finger on it but things look way more stiff than other shows.

Look how everything is frozen except Goku's lips :

https://youtu.be/jyT8LaW3uIY?t=69

Would it have been so hard to have them blink or move around a bit ?

[Dbzfan94]

Another issue with the animation is how off everything seems when characters are walking, talking, etc. I can't put my finger on it but things look way more stiff than other shows.

Look how everything is frozen except Goku's lips :

https://youtu.be/jyT8LaW3uIY?t=69

Would it have been so hard to have them blink or move around a bit ?

Wow... Gohan especially looks like a robot. Though to be fair this was DBS at it's worst.

[Asura]

Super didn't have enough pre production and was rushed out the door way too soon which has caused massive problems that go on today.

Which was understandable during its first episodes but we're 100 in now. How long do they need to get things in order ?

Do you think the staff wants to be in a shitty situation that puts strain on their work? If it was that simple it would be done by now. If Super was a seasonal anime, then you'd have a point. But it's not it's a constant stream of episodes that never stops except for the occasional break. All that time is spent just making the episodes with very little of it being used as breathing room to get things back in order.

And it obvious to see that they are making progress, but that doesn't mean it's in an ideal spot. Throwing money at it isn't going to fix it either. If someone really talented doesn't have time to produce something to the best of their abilities then they aren't going to produce something to the best of their abilities. These people aren't programs that need a patch to work better. The sad truth is that things may not be in an ideal spot any time soon if ever. Animation is a bitch and long running weekly animation even more so. Especially with a shitty start like the one Super got.

But those are all just excuses. Things have gotten better, hell things are pretty damn good with this arc. Again the question is, why did it take so long? Sure they started off shitty and rushed, but why did it take a whopping two years to fix these problems? It should not have taken this long. I'm not blaming the animators for being lazy or half-assing it, I'm blaming TOEI as a whole for letting this shit go on for so long.

[sintzu]

If someone really talented doesn't have time to produce something to the best of their abilities then they aren't going to produce something to the best of their abilities. Animation is a bitch and long running weekly animation even more so. Especially with a shitty start like the one Super got.

In that case then Toei should have 2 teams, one for weeks 1&3 of the month another for 2&4. Toei's has the money and Super makes it and then some so they can afford it. If they're already doing that then they should add a 3rd or even 4th team, whatever it takes to get things where they need to be.

[Boo Machine]

Another issue with the animation is how off everything seems when characters are walking, talking, etc. I can't put my finger on it but things look way more stiff than other shows.

Look how everything is frozen except Goku's lips :

https://youtu.be/jyT8LaW3uIY?t=69

Would it have been so hard to have them blink or move around a bit ?

I'm pretty sure there is a more recent example that the ressurection F arc. Where everything looks like crap. but thats either just anime being anime, or it could be them saving a little time to fix the production.

Either way I don't think the problem with the particular moment is lack of movement. It's just a bad, uninteresting shot. Anime gets away with just mouth movement all the time, but usually makes it fun to look out with a good shot.

[sintzu]

Things have gotten better, hell things are pretty damn good with this arc. Again the question is, why did it take so long ?

Even with things improving, it's still not as good as it should be. Look at Gohan's hair when he went from Ssj to Mystic, it's like flash animation or something you'd do on Youtube for fun.

https://youtu.be/umWxg2lwRa4?t=34

Now look at this :

https://youtu.be/Wc7dENR8GHw?t=14

Why couldn't we get something like this ?

Thats either just anime being anime, or it could be them saving a little time to fix the production.

Would it have taken so much time to have someone turn their head and look at Goku ? I'm not expecting movie quality animation but small things like head turning and blinking eyes would go a long way to make things look more natural.

[Boo Machine]

But those are all just excuses. Things have gotten better, hell things are pretty damn good with this arc. Again the question is, why did it take so long? Sure they started off shitty and rushed, but why did it take a whopping two years to fix these problems? It should not have taken this long. I'm not blaming the animators for being lazy or half-assing it, I'm blaming TOEI as a whole for letting this shit go on for so long.

It's not just an excuse though. Lack of time isn't " just an excuse". It's just the reality of the situation. They aren't letting it go on for this long because anyone can see that every arc is an improvement over the last. At least after the Ressuresction F arc. If Super was on hold for 2 years, then you'd have a point. But it's been going constantly for 2 years with little breaks. That isn't enough time to fix something that needs months of time WITHOUT it being on air.

In that case then Toei should have 2 teams, one for weeks 1&3 of the month another for 2&4. Toei's has the money and Super makes it and then some so they can afford it. If they're already doing that then they should add a 3rd or even 4th team, whatever it takes to get things where they need to be.

You don't think if that were an option they would? Like I asked, do you think they WANT to be in a shitty situation? That would just be throwing money at the problem. Which isn't the problem. It's time. They need time to make Super to the best of their abilities, and with the shitty schedule they have there aren't many people who WANT to work on it because it's just too much. Plus Super isn't Toei's only project. There isn't an infinite amount of staff to use even if everyone was willing to work on it.

Thats either just anime being anime, or it could be them saving a little time to fix the production.

Would it have taken so much time to have someone turn their head and look at Goku ? I'm not expecting movie quality animation but small things like head turning and blinking eyes would go a long way to make things look more natural.

Maybe. We don't know the situation behind this, but since the entire arc was really shitty, then the production was probably already at it's worst, or they just chose to sacrifice it to do better with the future arc. But, Again, it's not the lack of movement that's the problem in this scene. Goku could have moved his head and did a little dance for all it mattered, it's still would have just been a bad shot and looked like crap.

[sintzu]

Goku could have moved his head and did a little dance for all it mattered, it's still would have just been a bad shot and looked like crap.

It would've looked worse, Goku dancing like an idiot during a life or death battle while everyone just stands there and acts like it's normal.

[PeanutSaiyan]

But those are all just excuses. Things have gotten better, hell things are pretty damn good with this arc. Again the question is, why did it take so long? Sure they started off shitty and rushed, but why did it take a whopping two years to fix these problems? It should not have taken this long. I'm not blaming the animators for being lazy or half-assing it, I'm blaming TOEI as a whole for letting this shit go on for so long.

It's not just an excuse though. Lack of time isn't " just an excuse". It's just the reality of the situation. They aren't letting it go on for this long because anyone can see that every arc is an improvement over the last. At least after the Ressuresction F arc. If Super was on hold for 2 years, then you'd have a point. But it's been going constantly for 2 years with little breaks. That isn't enough time to fix something that needs months of time WITHOUT it being on air.

In that case then Toei should have 2 teams, one for weeks 1&3 of the month another for 2&4. Toei's has the money and Super makes it and then some so they can afford it. If they're already doing that then they should add a 3rd or even 4th team, whatever it takes to get things where they need to be.

You don't think if that were an option they would? Like I asked, do you think they WANT to be in a shitty situation? That would just be throwing money at the problem. Which isn't the problem. It's time. They need time to make Super to the best of their abilities, and with the shitty schedule they have there aren't many people who WANT to work on it because it's just too much. Plus Super isn't Toei's only project. There isn't an infinite amount of staff to use even if everyone was willing to work on it.

Thats either just anime being anime, or it could be them saving a little time to fix the production.

Would it have taken so much time to have someone turn their head and look at Goku ? I'm not expecting movie quality animation but small things like head turning and blinking eyes would go a long way to make things look more natural.

Maybe. We don't know the situation behind this, but since the entire arc was really shitty, then the production was probably already at it's worst, or they just chose to sacrifice it to do better with the future arc. But, Again, it's not the lack of movement that's the problem in this scene. Goku could have moved his head and did a little dance for all it mattered, it's still would have just been a bad shot and looked like crap.

These all sound like excuses to me.

[Boo Machine]

These all sound like excuses to me.

Cool, you can believe that if you want. They aren't though. It's just how things are and no amount of reducing them to "Just excuses" is going to make the problem magically go away. Because it isn't an issue of "Well why don't they just do better?!"

It would've looked worse, Goku dancing like an idiot during a life or death battle while everyone just stands there and acts like it's normal.

I'd take it. Would have improved the scene. I would have actually been entertained.