How strong could full-blooded Earthlings get?

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Lord Beerus
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Re: How strong could full-blooded Earthlings get?

Post by Lord Beerus » Mon Jul 10, 2017 6:38 pm

precita wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:and Roshi making ridiculous gains in strength from off-screen training.
Roshi really has't done anything so far to show much of an increase in strength. He took out some extremely weak Freeza henchmen that were probably barely above what he was in his prime, and we haven't seen him fight anyone in the tournament yet. I don't know where people seem to get the impression Roshi got so strong yet, it's not like he had an Android 17 moment.
He fought evenly with Base Goku, and he sure as hell ain't no chump.

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Re: How strong could full-blooded Earthlings get?

Post by Zagacious » Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:36 pm

Eternal Super Saiyan wrote:
Zagacious wrote:I think in an arc or two we'll see the humans or maybe Piccolo and Uub training with Whis, hopefully unlocking god ki.
Tien isn't a human but he doesn't seem to be that much stronger than Krillin or Roshi (he did seem way stronger in DBZ, but now he seems weaker than he was)
Not much stronger than Roshi? There is quite a gap between Krillin and Roshi.
Well in DBZ maybe, but I'm talking about how Dragon Ball Super has represented them being not that far apart. Realistically Tien and Krillin should be way above Master Roshi because they've fought much stronger enemies than he has, but in Super they've made it look like the humans are all pretty much weak and can't do anything. The Krillin sparring Goku SSB episode is the only episode where they made humans look kind of strong, but contrast that to a few episodes before where Krillin was exhausted after taking out ordinary human criminals. They've made their powers jump all over the place to the point it's impossible to really make an accurate prediction anyways.

If this was DBZ, Roshi would be physically blown away just by the magnitude of these other peoples' powers in the ToP, but Krillin and Tien would still be holding up. I like the character but it doesn't make sense for him to be on this level of power so I've kind of just accepted it. It does kind of annoy me how they've made Tien seem so weak now and hopefully they'll make proper use of his Tri beam cannon to knock people out, otherwise including him just for the hell of it is just damaging the character honestly.
Lord Beerus wrote:
precita wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:and Roshi making ridiculous gains in strength from off-screen training.
Roshi really has't done anything so far to show much of an increase in strength. He took out some extremely weak Freeza henchmen that were probably barely above what he was in his prime, and we haven't seen him fight anyone in the tournament yet. I don't know where people seem to get the impression Roshi got so strong yet, it's not like he had an Android 17 moment.
He fought evenly with Base Goku, and he sure as hell ain't no chump.
??.. you mean when Goku was a kid?

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Re: How strong could full-blooded Earthlings get?

Post by Eternal Super Saiyan » Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:54 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
precita wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:and Roshi making ridiculous gains in strength from off-screen training.
Roshi really has't done anything so far to show much of an increase in strength. He took out some extremely weak Freeza henchmen that were probably barely above what he was in his prime, and we haven't seen him fight anyone in the tournament yet. I don't know where people seem to get the impression Roshi got so strong yet, it's not like he had an Android 17 moment.
He fought evenly with Base Goku, and he sure as hell ain't no chump.
There is nothing to support Roshi being on equal footing with base Goku as evidence. There are a few times during the recruitment Goku was confirmed to be holding back. Kind of like how it's impossible for Krillin to force Goku to go SSJ and Blue... :roll:
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Re: How strong could full-blooded Earthlings get?

Post by Eternal Super Saiyan » Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:56 pm

Zagacious wrote:
Eternal Super Saiyan wrote:
Zagacious wrote:I think in an arc or two we'll see the humans or maybe Piccolo and Uub training with Whis, hopefully unlocking god ki.
Tien isn't a human but he doesn't seem to be that much stronger than Krillin or Roshi (he did seem way stronger in DBZ, but now he seems weaker than he was)
Not much stronger than Roshi? There is quite a gap between Krillin and Roshi.
Well in DBZ maybe, but I'm talking about how Dragon Ball Super has represented them being not that far apart. Realistically Tien and Krillin should be way above Master Roshi because they've fought much stronger enemies than he has, but in Super they've made it look like the humans are all pretty much weak and can't do anything. The Krillin sparring Goku SSB episode is the only episode where they made humans look kind of strong, but contrast that to a few episodes before where Krillin was exhausted after taking out ordinary human criminals. They've made their powers jump all over the place to the point it's impossible to really make an accurate prediction anyways.

If this was DBZ, Roshi would be physically blown away just by the magnitude of these other peoples' powers in the ToP, but Krillin and Tien would still be holding up. I like the character but it doesn't make sense for him to be on this level of power so I've kind of just accepted it. It does kind of annoy me how they've made Tien seem so weak now and hopefully they'll make proper use of his Tri beam cannon to knock people out, otherwise including him just for the hell of it is just damaging the character honestly.
This is all still speculation. We do not really know how strong Roshi is. He could still be only 10,000 or 50,000. I'm being generous with those numbers also in my opinion.
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Re: How strong could full-blooded Earthlings get?

Post by Zagacious » Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:09 pm

Eternal Super Saiyan wrote:
Zagacious wrote:
Eternal Super Saiyan wrote:
Not much stronger than Roshi? There is quite a gap between Krillin and Roshi.
Well in DBZ maybe, but I'm talking about how Dragon Ball Super has represented them being not that far apart. Realistically Tien and Krillin should be way above Master Roshi because they've fought much stronger enemies than he has, but in Super they've made it look like the humans are all pretty much weak and can't do anything. The Krillin sparring Goku SSB episode is the only episode where they made humans look kind of strong, but contrast that to a few episodes before where Krillin was exhausted after taking out ordinary human criminals. They've made their powers jump all over the place to the point it's impossible to really make an accurate prediction anyways.

If this was DBZ, Roshi would be physically blown away just by the magnitude of these other peoples' powers in the ToP, but Krillin and Tien would still be holding up. I like the character but it doesn't make sense for him to be on this level of power so I've kind of just accepted it. It does kind of annoy me how they've made Tien seem so weak now and hopefully they'll make proper use of his Tri beam cannon to knock people out, otherwise including him just for the hell of it is just damaging the character honestly.
This is all still speculation. We do not really know how strong Roshi is. He could still be only 10,000 or 50,000. I'm being generous with those numbers also in my opinion.
Okay well if you look at that way then any conversation about the series is entirely speculation, because all the things I stated actually happened. I wasn't even saying Roshi is strong, just that Tien should be stronger than him and Krillin, so I'm not sure why you quoted me in the first place. Pulling numbers of out nowhere is far more speculation than basing things on events that actually happened.

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Re: How strong could full-blooded Earthlings get?

Post by Eternal Super Saiyan » Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:14 pm

Zagacious wrote:
Eternal Super Saiyan wrote:
Zagacious wrote:
Well in DBZ maybe, but I'm talking about how Dragon Ball Super has represented them being not that far apart. Realistically Tien and Krillin should be way above Master Roshi because they've fought much stronger enemies than he has, but in Super they've made it look like the humans are all pretty much weak and can't do anything. The Krillin sparring Goku SSB episode is the only episode where they made humans look kind of strong, but contrast that to a few episodes before where Krillin was exhausted after taking out ordinary human criminals. They've made their powers jump all over the place to the point it's impossible to really make an accurate prediction anyways.

If this was DBZ, Roshi would be physically blown away just by the magnitude of these other peoples' powers in the ToP, but Krillin and Tien would still be holding up. I like the character but it doesn't make sense for him to be on this level of power so I've kind of just accepted it. It does kind of annoy me how they've made Tien seem so weak now and hopefully they'll make proper use of his Tri beam cannon to knock people out, otherwise including him just for the hell of it is just damaging the character honestly.
This is all still speculation. We do not really know how strong Roshi is. He could still be only 10,000 or 50,000. I'm being generous with those numbers also in my opinion.
Okay well if you look at that way then any conversation about the series is entirely speculation, because all the things I stated actually happened. I wasn't even saying Roshi is strong, just that Tien should be stronger than him and Krillin, so I'm not sure why you quoted me in the first place. Pulling numbers of out nowhere is far more speculation than basing things on events that actually happened.
This, here for starters.
Zagacious wrote: but I'm talking about how Dragon Ball Super has represented them being not that far apart.
They still should be far apart. Roshi even today should be leagues below Tien and Krillin.
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Re: How strong could full-blooded Earthlings get?

Post by Zagacious » Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:19 pm

Eternal Super Saiyan wrote:
Zagacious wrote:
Eternal Super Saiyan wrote:
This is all still speculation. We do not really know how strong Roshi is. He could still be only 10,000 or 50,000. I'm being generous with those numbers also in my opinion.
Okay well if you look at that way then any conversation about the series is entirely speculation, because all the things I stated actually happened. I wasn't even saying Roshi is strong, just that Tien should be stronger than him and Krillin, so I'm not sure why you quoted me in the first place. Pulling numbers of out nowhere is far more speculation than basing things on events that actually happened.
This, here for starters.
Zagacious wrote: but I'm talking about how Dragon Ball Super has represented them being not that far apart.
They still should be far apart. Roshi even today should be leagues below Tien and Krillin.
I agreed he should be based on DBZ, but Super has shown the power levels jumping all over the place in just a couple examples I gave. The Tien and Roshi episode especially made it seem like Tien and Roshi are relatively close when they shouldn't be. I'm not sure what you're even trying to argue because I'm agreeing with you that they should be far apart, but Super has made it seem otherwise. You can't say those episodes don't count either because there are only a few episodes where they are actually in action and it's the only thing you can base their power on.

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Re: How strong could full-blooded Earthlings get?

Post by Gray Riders » Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:03 pm

Lord Beerus wrote: Honestly, I think they they could. Whis took Vegeta from SSJ2 to SSJB tier in six months, so anything can really happen. And before people say, "Saiyans have more potential than Earthlings." No. I don't but that any more. I used to, but when you see the likes of Android 17 and Roshi making ridiculous gains in strength from off-screen training, and lets not even get into all the nonsense boosts in strength that Piccolo gets in the manga, you realize "potential" is such a crapshoot in Dragon Ball. It's plot device that can be handed to anyone at any given time to suit the circumstances of the narrative. It's a literal roulette wheel when it comes to how much dormant power a certain character can tap into through specific circumstances. We've had zero hints that guys like Krillin, Tien and Roshi could make massive gains through something like Whis training, but if the plot needs a character to be relevant, their strength will bloat like nothing before it.
I really think the best example of how weird power gain was, even in the manga, was the training for Nappa and Vegeta.
Three years with Kami plus whatever he did between the 23rd and Raditz put Goku at just above 400. Less than a full year with Kami put Kuririn from 206 to probably being able to destroy five Saibamen above 1,200 (going by the assumption the Saibaman that dodged would have died if he didn't, and that the blast that hit Nappa and Vegeta had at least as much power as the rest). That's insane. So much for Saiyan potential! It makes it look like Goku was only the strongest because he had a head-start as a Saiyan than stayed one training method ahead of everyone else. Apparently, if Kami had nabbed Yamcha for the three years instead of Goku he'd have one-shotted Piccolo Junior.

Dragon Ball never cared that much for strength gains being consistent. If Super had said "after Freeza came back Kuririn and the others all went into the Room of Spirit and Time and got Bulma to whip up a new gravity room for them to use while they were in there, and now they're all Super Saiyan tier" it would not be any weirder than some of the manga's power jumps.

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Re: How strong could full-blooded Earthlings get?

Post by Lord Beerus » Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:16 pm

Zagacious wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:
precita wrote:
Roshi really has't done anything so far to show much of an increase in strength. He took out some extremely weak Freeza henchmen that were probably barely above what he was in his prime, and we haven't seen him fight anyone in the tournament yet. I don't know where people seem to get the impression Roshi got so strong yet, it's not like he had an Android 17 moment.
He fought evenly with Base Goku, and he sure as hell ain't no chump.
??.. you mean when Goku was a kid?
Nope. I meant in Episode 89 of Super.

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Re: How strong could full-blooded Earthlings get?

Post by TheOne » Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:55 pm

Eternal Super Saiyan wrote:
Zagacious wrote:
Eternal Super Saiyan wrote:
Not much stronger than Roshi? There is quite a gap between Krillin and Roshi.
Well in DBZ maybe, but I'm talking about how Dragon Ball Super has represented them being not that far apart. Realistically Tien and Krillin should be way above Master Roshi because they've fought much stronger enemies than he has, but in Super they've made it look like the humans are all pretty much weak and can't do anything. The Krillin sparring Goku SSB episode is the only episode where they made humans look kind of strong, but contrast that to a few episodes before where Krillin was exhausted after taking out ordinary human criminals. They've made their powers jump all over the place to the point it's impossible to really make an accurate prediction anyways.

If this was DBZ, Roshi would be physically blown away just by the magnitude of these other peoples' powers in the ToP, but Krillin and Tien would still be holding up. I like the character but it doesn't make sense for him to be on this level of power so I've kind of just accepted it. It does kind of annoy me how they've made Tien seem so weak now and hopefully they'll make proper use of his Tri beam cannon to knock people out, otherwise including him just for the hell of it is just damaging the character honestly.
This is all still speculation. We do not really know how strong Roshi is. He could still be only 10,000 or 50,000. I'm being generous with those numbers also in my opinion.
Those numbers are wayyyy too extreme for roshi.... there's no way he'd be able to take on Raditz, nappa or Saiyan saga Vegeta.
How i predict the tournament will end:

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Re: How strong could full-blooded Earthlings get?

Post by Lionel » Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:16 am

Muscled Roshi was capable of going toe to toe with Goku emitting an aura. It's arguably a more impressive demonstration of his power than when Goku sparred with Mr Buu. Of course, I doubt anyone believes for one minute that Roshi of all people could be stronger than Buu and on-par with the Base Saiyans. The concept is downright laughable, to be honest.

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Re: How strong could full-blooded Earthlings get?

Post by TheOne » Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:42 am

Lionel wrote:Muscled Roshi was capable of going toe to toe with Goku emitting an aura. It's arguably a more impressive demonstration of his power than when Goku sparred with Mr Buu. Of course, I doubt anyone believes for one minute that Roshi of all people could be stronger than Buu and on-par with the Base Saiyans. The concept is downright laughable, to be honest.
You overestimate the intelligence of some of of the people here...

Roshi got passed up at the end/mid dragon ball. Z he was completely outclassed by everyone at this point. I don't buy the whole "he's been training off screen" crap. Even if he was, there's no way he'd pass up raditz or nappa.

Guys who go with this power boost and say Roshi is on par with base Goku or even tien are simply making up excuses for terrible writing and consistency.
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Re: How strong could full-blooded Earthlings get?

Post by TekTheNinja » Wed Jul 12, 2017 3:22 pm

The real answer is that they can reach whatever power the writers want them to reach which sadly the writers don't seem to care about them much.

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Re: How strong could full-blooded Earthlings get?

Post by Toonami1998 » Tue Jul 18, 2017 1:50 am

We'll Uub is technically a human so......Its already been stated and he has been brought up in super to poses unbelievable martial arts capabilities but he's still a child. They will touch on him more after this arc, I can see there being a time warp, prob a few years after the ToP.

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