Goku and the "yes but no" responsibility for the ToP

[Amerigo]

Beerus: Don't open the lion cage! They have rabies and kill people.

Goku: I know that. *Opens cage full of lions*

Then a bunch of zombies run out of the woods, and the lions destroy them, and decide to become friends with people.

Fans: See! Goku actually saved them! If he didn't open the lion cage, the zombies would have killed everyone.

[Boo Machine]

But he is okay with it. Show me one scene of evidence that proves he regrets it or questions it or feels anything about it other than excitement. There is none. He was 100% on board with it and never once even thought about it. Beerus & Whis also warned him not to go, and he tricked Beerus and went anyway.

That's not entirely accurate though. You make is sound like Goku is totally up for murder and is ok with people dying. The look he had on his face when U9 got erased pretty much shows he is not OK with this. He is excited for the fight, but not for the killing. He isn't smiling from ear to ear when someone blows up like a kid watching fireworks.

Of course he is on board with the fighting. If he isn't they die. Same with the other members of the team. No one shows regret about knocking people off to their possible deaths. Krillin just helped do it to three people and he was super happy about it. He wasn't like "Dear god what have I done?". He was just "WHOOOOO Krillin is in top form! YAY!".

And it's kind of hard for Goku to feel regret when every other god keeps pointing out that his actions have given them a chance at survival. At this point it's really only U 11 that still see him as the bad guy. There are a few other gods that just don't like him for personal reasons, like speaking so casually to Zeno, like Ramush said.

The only thing Goku is guilty of is speeding up the date of death for everyone, and even then one gets to live. Assuming they don't magically wave all this away with a wish or something. You could argue that the tone of the arc isn't right or doesn't fit, but it's not all on Goku. Every character is looking out for themselves.

[emi_b7]

The problem is, as always, that people had spoilers about Goku being blamed by the other Universes weeks before it actually happened in te show so they started this whole "Goku is a villain" thing.

That's not the problem at all. I dunno why so many people think the reveal of Goku at least being able to save one universe completely validates how he was acting before that. Not only did we not know that information at first, but neither did Goku. He was acting with the intention of having the universes erased and couldn't give a fuck less about anyone in those universes. He wanted a martial arts tournament and if other people got erased from existence? Whatever. People keep bringing up the "But Goku at least made one universe survive!" line but completely forget about how he was acting before that.

Goku's shitty attitude accidentally leading to a good deed does not somehow excuse the fact that he had a shitty attitude where he didn't care at all about universes being destroyed. Not because he wanted to save his own universe, but just because he wanted a martial arts tournament. Goku was literally willing to let all the other universes be destroyed solely because he wanted a tournament, and not because he wanted to save his own universe. It's that ridiculous attitude that is incredibly out of character for Goku. He's selfish, but he's not a psychopath.

Oh no dude, you didn't understand what I said (which is not a hard thing to do because my English isn't that good ). I am talking about the whole "Toei or Toriyama takes a step backward" in the OP. A lot of people talk like DBS presented Goku as the bad guy and then went back and said Zeno was going to destroy those universes anyway just to make Goku look better when, in reality, all of those things were said in the same episode (universes getting destroyed, Goku wanting the tournament and Zeno wanting to destroy universes anyway). The problem was that by the time we watched the episode, people had already made their minds about this because of spoilers and didn't pay attention to that so it feels (to some people) like the whole thing about Zeno wanting to have less universes was made to make Goku not an asshole after the fact. I was just talking about that in that paragraph, the whole "damage control" thing in the OP.
I agree that the way Goku acted in those episodes where he barely even aknowledged the gravity of the situation (if at all) and was just saying "bring your strongest fighters" and stuff like that sucked. But I wasn't talking about that there.

[HeroR]

Beerus: Don't open the lion cage! They have rabies and kill people.

Goku: I know that. *Opens cage full of lions*

Then a bunch of zombies run out of the woods, and the lions destroy them, and decide to become friends with people.

Fans: See! Goku actually saved them! If he didn't open the lion cage, the zombies would have killed everyone.

That analog doesn't work because it isn't fans saying "Goku actually saved them!" it's the show itself. Those eight universes in the Tourument of Power were going to be erased from existence. It happening now or a million years down the road doesn't matter because this isn't death. It's complete non-existence. The tourument gives at least one doomed universe a chance to save itself.

Seriously, this was spelled out several times in the show, but fans can't let go of the "Goku started the tourument, so everything is his fault" narrative.

[Akyon]

Goku is pretty much responsible for the current mortals being erased. These specific lives are on his shoulders.

The GoDs and Kai's however would have been erased later down the line anyway when Zeno EVENTUALLY did it.

That's why I can fully understand the hatred the likes of Bergamo feels for Goku. He was going to die of old age long before Zeno would have offed him and could have lead a long and fulfilling life if not for Goku speeding up his demise.

Sidra and Roh though were doomed either way given their very long life spans.

Youre missing a huge point though.

Even if they die their souls would be be recycled/alive when the erasure happens. They would still experience being erased except they would be powerless.

I'm looking again, In-universe. Do Bergamo and the others know that?

As far as most mortals are concerned the only life they have is the one they're living.
I'd be bloody pissed off if the world ended tomorrow even if it turned out I'd been reincarnated repeatedly and thus it didn't matter when the world ended as I'd still be present for it.

[Lord Beerus]

But he is okay with it. Show me one scene of evidence that proves he regrets it or questions it or feels anything about it other than excitement. There is none. He was 100% on board with it and never once even thought about it. Beerus & Whis also warned him not to go, and he tricked Beerus and went anyway.

That's not entirely accurate though. You make is sound like Goku is totally up for murder and is ok with people dying. The look he had on his face when U9 got erased pretty much shows he is not OK with this. He is excited for the fight, but not for the killing. He isn't smiling from ear to ear when someone blows up like a kid watching fireworks.

Of course he is on board with the fighting. If he isn't they die. Same with the other members of the team. No one shows regret about knocking people off to their possible deaths. Krillin just helped do it to three people and he was super happy about it. He wasn't like "Dear god what have I done?". He was just "WHOOOOO Krillin is in top form! YAY!".

And it's kind of hard for Goku to feel regret when every other god keeps pointing out that his actions have given them a chance at survival. At this point it's really only U 11 that still see him as the bad guy. There are a few other gods that just don't like him for personal reasons, like speaking so casually to Zeno, like Ramush said.

The only thing Goku is guilty of is speeding up the date of death for everyone, and even then one gets to live. Assuming they don't magically wave all this away with a wish or something. You could argue that the tone of the arc isn't right or doesn't fit, but it's not all on Goku. Every character is looking out for themselves.

I definitely recall that Goku was just as shocked and horrified, like everyone else was, when he found out the circumstances of the Tournament of Power from Grand Priest. He couldn't believe that such a stipulation had been added and didn't expect it to happen. It's not as if Goku reacted stone faced to the whole scenario.

Goku even wanted to talk to Zeno to persuade him not to destroy any universes. So it's not as if Goku didn't take into consideration that several universes were going to be destroyed and didn't try to think of way to fix it, because he did. But Whis suggested him not to do that in fear that it would upset Zeno and he would kill Goku on the spot for making such a suggestion.

After Goku suggestion of persuading Zeno not destroy any of the universes was shot down, he was literally wondering what he could do to salvage this scenario. And came to the conclusion to focus and winning the Tournament of Power and saving his own universe because there was not much else Goku could could do at this stage. I mean, there's no guarantee that Goku would be able persuade Zeno to change such a stipulation without some strings attached. Zeno is a very capricious person. He may be friends with Goku, but there no guarantee he wouldn't wipe him out without a second thought if he annoyed him by trying to change his mind on something he's certain on. He's that kind of person.

[MagmonKai]

I'd like to point out that Goku had to remind Zeno of his promise for a multiverse tournament, meaning Zeno is entirely capable of saying one thing then totally forgetting about it.

This adds another layer to how much at fault Goku really is, did he really give one universe a chance or did he truly screw them over by reminding Zeno of his one time idea to cull the multiverse.

I feel like the Great Priest would have reminded him. He seems to be in charge of things anyway. Hell, I have sneaking suspicion that he orchestrated this whole tournament idea after witnessing the U6 vs U7 competition which excited Zeno. His job seems to satisfy him, keep the Zeno pacified as much as possible to quell that unreasonable monster.

[Boo Machine]

In the U6 arc Zeno went to check up on beerus and Champa. I believe it was because they were slacking off, and he joked about replacing them. Whether it's because of the Grand priest or not, Zeno does check up on how the universes are doing from time to time. Even if Goku never reminded him it's not out there to think that he would have remembered eventually.

Even if it was to say, visit Goku or the earth, like Whis suggested the grand priest do. Some one would have remembered the tournament or the destruction at some point. Remember, even if Zeno forgot, at this point in the story, he was already getting bored just playing with himself. (Pfft)

[FoolsGil]

I have went from saying the tournament is completely Goku's fault, to Goku deserving some of the blame. Everyone goes on and on about Zeno was going to wipe out the universes anyways. But no one can say when? At least from the timeline with the Double Future Trunks' he hasn't done it yet. Far as I'm concerned if he's ever going to do it, it's very likely it won't be centuries, even millenias later (if that wasn't the case, then the Double Future Trunks have their work cut out for them, and I doubt Super will repeat their plotlines). Goku's partial fault comes in that he effectively took time away from those universes. Instead of the centuries or millenias they had to exist, they now had their remaining time all taken away so Goku can get a good fight. Toei can use the Kais and Angels as mouthpieces all they want, doesn't mean Goku is completely absolved.

[GodKaio-Ken]

Goku basically explained it this episode. He said Zeno gon do what Zeno gon do. Paraphrased lol

That is why hes focused on surviving.

[Majin Jator]

This didn't happen. The Grand Priest telling everyone the concequences of the ToP, Goku being blamed by other Universes and the reveal that Zeno was thinking about destroying those universes anyway ALL happened in the same episode (ep 80, and continued in ep 81 after Bergamo gives his speech). There was no step backward and no damage control, the information was all given at the same time. The problem is, as always, that people had spoilers about Goku being blamed by the other Universes weeks before it actually happened in te show so they started this whole "Goku is a villain" thing.

You're right about the other universes getting all the information at the same time. That was not the case for us, the viewers.
It was at the beginning of episode 78 when the Grand Priest told Goku, Beerus and the kais that the universes defeated would be eliminated. Only a few episodes later they tell us it was going to happen anyway. I think it could be seen as a step backward.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that just after ep. 78 Toei got nervous and improvise an explanation to absolve Goku. But maybe while they were developing the new arc someone thought that Goku being responsible for the erasure of the universes was too much. Or maybe it was always the plan that he was actually saving one of the universes condemned to oblivion.

My point is that you either go full "Blame is on Goku", or just skip that plot point entirely. Depending of your standpoint, this middle ground just ruins a bold idea or still taints Goku enough to be irking.

[Asura]

But he is okay with it. Show me one scene of evidence that proves he regrets it or questions it or feels anything about it other than excitement. There is none. He was 100% on board with it and never once even thought about it. Beerus & Whis also warned him not to go, and he tricked Beerus and went anyway.

That's not entirely accurate though. You make is sound like Goku is totally up for murder and is ok with people dying. The look he had on his face when U9 got erased pretty much shows he is not OK with this. He is excited for the fight, but not for the killing. He isn't smiling from ear to ear when someone blows up like a kid watching fireworks.

Of course he is on board with the fighting. If he isn't they die. Same with the other members of the team. No one shows regret about knocking people off to their possible deaths. Krillin just helped do it to three people and he was super happy about it. He wasn't like "Dear god what have I done?". He was just "WHOOOOO Krillin is in top form! YAY!".

And it's kind of hard for Goku to feel regret when every other god keeps pointing out that his actions have given them a chance at survival. At this point it's really only U 11 that still see him as the bad guy. There are a few other gods that just don't like him for personal reasons, like speaking so casually to Zeno, like Ramush said.

The only thing Goku is guilty of is speeding up the date of death for everyone, and even then one gets to live. Assuming they don't magically wave all this away with a wish or something. You could argue that the tone of the arc isn't right or doesn't fit, but it's not all on Goku. Every character is looking out for themselves.

But everything you just told me about has happened during the tournament. I'm talking about how he was acting during/before the exhibition matches. The way Goku is acting right now during the tournament is fine, it's how he acted with the circumstances that lead us to this point that is the problem and that is what I'm talking about.

I definitely recall that Goku was just as shocked and horrified, like everyone else was, when he found out the circumstances of the Tournament of Power from Grand Priest. He couldn't believe that such a stipulation had been added and didn't expect it to happen. It's not as if Goku reacted stone faced to the whole scenario.

Goku even wanted to talk to Zeno to persuade him not to destroy any universes. So it's not as if Goku didn't take into consideration that several universes were going to be destroyed and didn't try to think of way to fix it, because he did. But Whis suggested him not to do that in fear that it would upset Zeno and he would kill Goku on the spot for making such a suggestion.

After Goku suggestion of persuading Zeno not destroy any of the universes was shot down, he was literally wondering what he could do to salvage this scenario. And came to the conclusion to focus and winning the Tournament of Power and saving his own universe because there was not much else Goku could could do at this stage. I mean, there's no guarantee that Goku would be able persuade Zeno to change such a stipulation without some strings attached. Zeno is a very capricious person. He may be friends with Goku, but there no guarantee he wouldn't wipe him out without a second thought if he annoyed him by trying to change his mind on something he's certain on. He's that kind of person.

He acted surprised for about two seconds, then immediately started smiling and acting carefree while everyone else's jaw was still on the floor. He didn't seem to give it much thought or contemplation as to what he had just done. It was all just "Oh well, at least I get to fight strong people!" - There was no regret, there was no thought process, nothing. It went straight from surprise to pretty much not caring. Beerus (who is the voice of reason for this entire arc) even asks Goku afterwards if he has any idea what he has just done in regards to all of the universes and the only thing Goku can say is "Huh?" with an eyebrow raised, as if he doesn't even understand the gravity of the situation. Goku doesn't even think about asking Zeno to forget about the universe erasing thing until the Supreme Kai chimes in saying he'd be ashamed as a god if his universe was erased. Goku then says "So do you want me to try asking Zeno to forget about the erasin' thing?" to the Supreme Kai as if he's doing it for him, and not because, you know, it's something he should have immediately thought of.

Goku was heavily out of character in the beginning of this arc, all for the sake of starting this plot point I'm willing to bet, because for some reason they couldn't have written it in any other way. Goku starting this whole mess and getting every universe to hate him isn't the problem, it's just how he goes about it afterwards, to where he's literally taunting all the universes in the exhibition matches. Even after beating Bergamo he basically laughs in his face and calls him weak, as opposed to doing the typical Goku thing and offering a handshake and saying it was a good fight or something. Nope, he's just a complete asshole instead.

[GodKaio-Ken]

I have went from saying the tournament is completely Goku's fault, to Goku deserving some of the blame. Everyone goes on and on about Zeno was going to wipe out the universes anyways. But no one can say when? At least from the timeline with the Double Future Trunks' he hasn't done it yet. Far as I'm concerned if he's ever going to do it, it's very likely it won't be centuries, even millenias later (if that wasn't the case, then the Double Future Trunks have their work cut out for them, and I doubt Super will repeat their plotlines). Goku's partial fault comes in that he effectively took time away from those universes. Instead of the centuries or millenias they had to exist, they now had their remaining time all taken away so Goku can get a good fight. Toei can use the Kais and Angels as mouthpieces all they want, doesn't mean Goku is completely absolved.

Youre making a baseless assumption about when it would have been to justify your view point. There is no more evidence it would have been far away vs the next day.

[Asura]

Beerus: Don't open the lion cage! They have rabies and kill people.

Goku: I know that. *Opens cage full of lions*

Then a bunch of zombies run out of the woods, and the lions destroy them, and decide to become friends with people.

Fans: See! Goku actually saved them! If he didn't open the lion cage, the zombies would have killed everyone.

That analog doesn't work because it isn't fans saying "Goku actually saved them!" it's the show itself. Those eight universes in the Tourument of Power were going to be erased from existence. It happening now or a million years down the road doesn't matter because this isn't death. It's complete non-existence. The tourument gives at least one doomed universe a chance to save itself.

Seriously, this was spelled out several times in the show, but fans can't let go of the "Goku started the tourument, so everything is his fault" narrative.

Both the fans and the show are saying it. Hell, you go on to say that it isn't the fans saying it, then you basically say it yourself. You're exactly the type of person he was referring to in his analogy (which is a very apt analogy, by the way), where thinking that because Goku accidentally found out he gave one universe the chance to survive, that somehow immediately excuses everything he did before that (while having no knowledge of the fact that he would have saved at least one universe)

[Boo Machine]

But everything you just told me about has happened during the tournament. I'm talking about how he was acting during/before the exhibition matches. The way Goku is acting right now during the tournament is fine, it's how he acted with the circumstances that lead us to this point that is the problem and that is what I'm talking about.

Gokus attitude may not have been ideal at the start, that's true, But it's not like he acted like he didn't care or that he enjoys the destruction. Which I suppose was my main point. That Goku doesn't want people dead nor is he on board with it.

[TheMikado]

This is 100% damage control, just look at the tone and they way it was played previously versus now. This is almost definitely a back track. Anyway the whole scenario is basically the "baby hitler" argument.

Let's say the universes would have been destroyed a million years from now. Given. That it's based on the AML level it's quite possible that Goku could hve doomed universes that wouldn't have been on the chopping block or saved some universes that should have been obliterated. It why the Zen'o was going to do it anyway argument is bogus, because in a million years the situation and landscape for the universes could have been completely different. In a million years after Goku was long dead maybe his universe may have been completely exempt. Who knows.

Anyway the point is just because you already "know" the outcome doesn't give you the right to speed the natural process along. But that's more of a personal moral issue. I personally don't believe in things like capital punishment so the idea of "speeding up the process" for someone serving life in prison is BS to me.

[FoolsGil]

I have went from saying the tournament is completely Goku's fault, to Goku deserving some of the blame. Everyone goes on and on about Zeno was going to wipe out the universes anyways. But no one can say when? At least from the timeline with the Double Future Trunks' he hasn't done it yet. Far as I'm concerned if he's ever going to do it, it's very likely it won't be centuries, even millenias later (if that wasn't the case, then the Double Future Trunks have their work cut out for them, and I doubt Super will repeat their plotlines). Goku's partial fault comes in that he effectively took time away from those universes. Instead of the centuries or millenias they had to exist, they now had their remaining time all taken away so Goku can get a good fight. Toei can use the Kais and Angels as mouthpieces all they want, doesn't mean Goku is completely absolved.

Youre making a baseless assumption about when it would have been to justify your view point. There is no more evidence it would have been far away vs the next day.

I use facts in the series itself to justify my viewpoint:

Double Future Trunks' Timeline is 16 years in the future. That is 16 more years U9 has had in that timeline, then they do in the current, and every day that the Double Future Trunks' Timeline exists, is one more day Goku stole from U9 in this timeline.

I also use logic to justify my viewpoint:

There's no way that Toei is going to repeat this story with Future Trunks, so as far as I'm concerned, they are safe from destruction and reinforces they longer that Double Future Trunks' timeline gets to live, the more time Goku stole.

Nothing baseless here.

[GodKaio-Ken]

Beerus: Don't open the lion cage! They have rabies and kill people.

Goku: I know that. *Opens cage full of lions*

Then a bunch of zombies run out of the woods, and the lions destroy them, and decide to become friends with people.

Fans: See! Goku actually saved them! If he didn't open the lion cage, the zombies would have killed everyone.

That analog doesn't work because it isn't fans saying "Goku actually saved them!" it's the show itself. Those eight universes in the Tourument of Power were going to be erased from existence. It happening now or a million years down the road doesn't matter because this isn't death. It's complete non-existence. The tourument gives at least one doomed universe a chance to save itself.

Seriously, this was spelled out several times in the show, but fans can't let go of the "Goku started the tourument, so everything is his fault" narrative.

Both the fans and the show are saying it. Hell, you go on to say that it isn't the fans saying it, then you basically say it yourself. You're exactly the type of person he was referring to in his analogy (which is a very apt analogy, by the way), where thinking that because Goku accidentally found out he gave one universe the chance to survive, that somehow immediately excuses everything he did before that (while having no knowledge of the fact that he would have saved at least one universe)

I'm not sure you actually understand the situation the show is portraying.

Its like Dennis Rodman goes to North Korea and asks for a checkers tournament.

Okay yeah...the guy is crazy...but Zeno isnt portrayed as "evil" just quick with the trigger finger so lets remember that.

Now Dear Leader tells Dennis he must compete against 7 other NBA players for survival.

Was it a bas idea from the start? Yeah maybe...but the consequences are so arbitrary they couldnt be anticipated.

[Asura]

But everything you just told me about has happened during the tournament. I'm talking about how he was acting during/before the exhibition matches. The way Goku is acting right now during the tournament is fine, it's how he acted with the circumstances that lead us to this point that is the problem and that is what I'm talking about.

Gokus attitude may not have been ideal at the start, that's true, But it's not like he acted like he didn't care or that he enjoys the destruction. Which I suppose was my main point. That Goku doesn't want people dead nor is he on board with it.

His indifference is the problem, which shows that he doesn't care about people dying. It's not like he's maliciously over the top evil where he wants people to die, he just gives off the impression that he absolutely does not care whether they live or die, and that's the fucked up part.

[GodKaio-Ken]

I have went from saying the tournament is completely Goku's fault, to Goku deserving some of the blame. Everyone goes on and on about Zeno was going to wipe out the universes anyways. But no one can say when? At least from the timeline with the Double Future Trunks' he hasn't done it yet. Far as I'm concerned if he's ever going to do it, it's very likely it won't be centuries, even millenias later (if that wasn't the case, then the Double Future Trunks have their work cut out for them, and I doubt Super will repeat their plotlines). Goku's partial fault comes in that he effectively took time away from those universes. Instead of the centuries or millenias they had to exist, they now had their remaining time all taken away so Goku can get a good fight. Toei can use the Kais and Angels as mouthpieces all they want, doesn't mean Goku is completely absolved.

Youre making a baseless assumption about when it would have been to justify your view point. There is no more evidence it would have been far away vs the next day.

I use facts in the series itself to justify my viewpoint:

Double Future Trunks' Timeline is 16 years in the future. That is 16 more years U9 has had in that timeline, then they do in the current, and every day that the Double Future Trunks' Timeline exists, is one more day Goku stole from U9 in this timeline.

I also use logic to justify my viewpoint:

There's no way that Toei is going to repeat this story with Future Trunks, so as far as I'm concerned, they are safe from destruction and reinforces they longer that Double Future Trunks' timeline gets to live, the more time Goku stole.

Nothing baseless here.

You somehow came up with millenia using the Future Trunks timeline?

How do you know in that timeline Zeno didnt destroy 2-3 already for fun in that timeline?