Should Frieza have an heroic moment?

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Re: Should Frieza have an heroic moment?

Postby GodKaio-Ken » Mon Dec 25, 2017 7:11 am

SupremeKai25 wrote:
a villain who loses his cool in Dragon Ball is a villain whose significance to the plot begins to diminish (Cell is a complicated kinda-exception to this).


Zamasu is the exception. He won when the last fraction of his sanity was gone. Unlike most villains, who lose when they can no longer keep their composure.


He never won...what the heck are you talking about? He got sliced in half by Trunks and erased by Zeno. Combine that with the fact he got lucky Vegito defused while he was getting his ass handed to him.

Minus his immortality Zamasu was basically trash as a fighter.

Though in reality you're talking about merged Zamasu. The last thing that happened to future Zamasu was he turned into a little b***h after the Mafuba :lol: I don't even like Vegeta that much but at least he handled it like a man afterwards.
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Re: Should Frieza have an heroic moment?

Postby SupremeKai25 » Mon Dec 25, 2017 7:18 am

He never won

That explains why Trunks' timeline is gone and the people Trunks fought to protect have been erased along with Zamasu. That explains why Goku had to resort to calling the Omni-King to even have the hope to put an end to Infinite Zamasu.

He got sliced in half by Trunks


Who was empowered by all life on Earth and two Saiyans, plus Zamasu's immortality had been greatly weakened by Vegito and Goku (Gowasu himself states that was his only weakness, and they exploited the unstable balance between Zamasu's immortal soul and half-mortal body to succeed).

And actually, if you paid attention to ep. 67, you'll know Zamasu willingly casted down his form as a God to merge with the Universe, so Trunks didn't destroy him. That was impossible, half of Zamasu's body was still immortal.

and erased by Zeno


Along with the entire Future Multiverse and all mortal life in it.

Combine that with the fact he got lucky Vegito defused while he was getting his was handed to him.


He survived the Final Kamehameha and his body somehow regenerated even though Vegito's final punch had critically damaged Zamasu's face. Vegito himself changed his expression from his usual cocky one to a more desperate and frustrated one (even combining all his power into one attack to end Zamasu quickly ----> that's not Vegito's usual method).

I suggest we stop here, since it's off-topic. And yes, i was obviously talking about Fused/Merged/Infinite Zamasu. Call him however you want, they are the same being.
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Re: Should Frieza have an heroic moment?

Postby Hawk9211 » Mon Dec 25, 2017 7:25 am

SupremeKai25 wrote:
He never won

That explains why Trunks' timeline is gone and the people Trunks fought to protect have been erased along with Zamasu. That explains why Goku had to resort to calling the Omni-King to even have the hope to put an end to Infinite Zamasu.

He got sliced in half by Trunks


Who was empowered by all life on Earth and two Saiyans, plus Zamasu's immortality had been greatly weakened by Vegito and Goku (Gowasu himself states that was his only weakness, and they exploited the unstable balance between Zamasu's immortal soul and half-mortal body to succeed).

And actually, if you paid attention to ep. 67, you'll know Zamasu willingly casted down his form as a God to merge with the Universe, so Trunks didn't destroy him. That was impossible, half of Zamasu's body was still immortal.

and erased by Zeno


Along with the entire Future Multiverse and all mortal life in it.

Combine that with the fact he got lucky Vegito defused while he was getting his was handed to him.


He survived the Final Kamehameha and his body somehow regenerated even though Vegito's final punch had critically damaged Zamasu's face. Vegito himself changed his expression from his usual cocky one to a more desperate and frustrated one (even combining all his power into one attack to end Zamasu quickly ----> that's not Vegito's usual method).

I suggest we stop here, since it's off-topic. And yes, i was obviously talking about Fused/Merged/Infinite Zamasu. Call him however you want, they are the same being.

Zamasu wanted to purify the universe from ningens,only ningens.At the most,it was a draw.
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Re: Should Frieza have an heroic moment?

Postby Ki Breaker » Mon Dec 25, 2017 10:49 am

Image

Like, this is a good enough start, and it's still better than what Vegeta did in this situation..
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Re: Should Frieza have an heroic moment?

Postby MajinVegetaPD » Mon Dec 25, 2017 10:07 pm

It's not that far fetched. He has already done things out of character, ie. gave Goku energy, saved him from a ring out, teamed with the other fighters and so on. Yes, his reasons are selfish, but those seeds have been planted for a possible redemption.

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Re: Should Frieza have an heroic moment?

Postby Nickolaidas » Tue Dec 26, 2017 4:10 am

The first step towards Frieza's redemption is only one: A common foe. With the exception of Tien, that has always been the factor which forced the former big bad of teaming up with Goku and slowly change his alignment.

For Yamcha it was Pilaf, for Tien it was Piccolo (though he was redeemed before that), for Piccolo it was Raditz (and by extension, Vegeta), for Vegeta it was Frieza, Cell and Boo. For Frieza it can be Jiren, then the Grand Priest or some other high-level mortal from the four uber-universes.

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Re: Should Frieza have an heroic moment?

Postby Bullza » Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:41 am

Finally, he had it. The heroic moment. That's basically what I had in my mind when I made this thread which I can't believe was all the way back in July.

He doesn't look like he's going to be betraying Goku, he actually saved him from elimination and will now team up with both him and Android 17 to take down Jiren.

He hasn't taken the fall for Goku, that could still happen but yeah I'm glad it ended up like this instead of him being a scumbag.

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Re: Should Frieza have an heroic moment?

Postby ToshioWrites » Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:09 am

Bullza wrote:Finally, he had it. The heroic moment. That's basically what I had in my mind when I made this thread which I can't believe was all the way back in July.

He doesn't look like he's going to be betraying Goku, he actually saved him from elimination and will now team up with both him and Android 17 to take down Jiren.

He hasn't taken the fall for Goku, that could still happen but yeah I'm glad it ended up like this instead of him being a scumbag.



He knows that goku will definitely keep his promise of reviving as the chances of him getting the SDB are pretty low at this moment, make the best of the situation !

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Re: Should Frieza have an heroic moment?

Postby kemuri07 » Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:46 am

Bullza wrote:Finally, he had it. The heroic moment. That's basically what I had in my mind when I made this thread which I can't believe was all the way back in July.

He doesn't look like he's going to be betraying Goku, he actually saved him from elimination and will now team up with both him and Android 17 to take down Jiren.

He hasn't taken the fall for Goku, that could still happen but yeah I'm glad it ended up like this instead of him being a scumbag.


Yeah because the guy personal responsible for the murder of millions of people--yeah god forbid they make him a scumbag.

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Re: Should Frieza have an heroic moment?

Postby Deathbeam » Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:01 am

If the producer made Frieza a fantastic tag team player, save Goku 2-3 times, save 17 and fight Jiren to the very end only for him to play his plan of "overthrowing" the gods (or trying to do it) it would be one of the lamest things of the entire franchise.

Not only it would be predictable, but it would also spoil a character that has evolved A LOT and finds his biggest attractive in ambiguity.

It would be fantastic if, by fighting alonside U7 team, he would slowly change his mind and become...different.

Maybe not a good guy, but neither the villain that goes back to hell or gets erased at the end.

U7 GoD candidate like Toppo in U11? Could be and might "save" the character somehow.

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Re: Should Frieza have an heroic moment?

Postby Bullza » Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:36 am

Yeah that's what I said. He should never be a good guy, but after all this struggle in this Tournament he should finally get over his anger with Goku, forgot about revenge and then just go off to do his own thing.

After all this I can't see why he'd still be so obsessed with killing him.

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Re: Should Frieza have an heroic moment?

Postby kemuri07 » Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:51 am

Again, Frieza is a mass murderer.
Again, he is responsible for the entire genocide of the Saiyan race.

He gets no redemption arc. He doesn't get to be an anti-villain. He is a monster. That is his character. Period.

But considering 17 not being dead, at this point why the fuck not? Let's just have Freeza and Goku be bros --because that's where we're at.

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Re: Should Frieza have an heroic moment?

Postby ToshioWrites » Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:09 pm

kemuri07 wrote:Again, Frieza is a mass murderer.
Again, he is responsible for the entire genocide of the Saiyan race.

He gets no redemption arc. He doesn't get to be an anti-villain. He is a monster. That is his character. Period.

But considering 17 not being dead, at this point why the fuck not? Let's just have Freeza and Goku be bros --because that's where we're at.


Again, Vegeta is a mass murderer.
Again, he is responsible for the death of millions of lives

I don't want him to be redeemed but its happened before and before you say its vegeta's early life under freeza. Vegeta in the buu arc killed tons of innocent people simply to provoke goku and this after he had had settled down with a wife and son and yet he's now a hero and considered pure of heart

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Re: Should Frieza have an heroic moment?

Postby kemuri07 » Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:28 pm

Here's the difference: Vegeta was always going to be the anti-villain, and the path towards redemption was pretty much evident as early as the Freeza saga.

That, and Vegeta softened because of his time with Goku and, like every other person in Goku's crew, is eventually won over by him.

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Re: Should Frieza have an heroic moment?

Postby Lord Beerus » Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:37 pm

kemuri07 wrote:Here's the difference: Vegeta was always going to be the anti-villain, and the path towards redemption was pretty much evident as early as the Freeza saga.

That, and Vegeta softened because of his time with Goku and, like every other person in Goku's crew, is eventually won over by him.

Vegeta was not on the path to redemption at all until the last stages of the Majin Boo arc.

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Re: Should Frieza have an heroic moment?

Postby Deathbeam » Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:33 pm

I've seen (couldn't read because it is not yet translated) chapter 34 of the manga. Frieza has clearly been represented as a villain. He has condamned universe 9 to erasure while piccolo was hesitating before delivering the final blow. He betrayed Frost after having him eliminating almost all universe 9,crilin and tien. Especially letting Frost eliminate 2 of his teammates ke clearly a villainous act. Also the anime shows his bad attitude: he double crossed Frost, he tried to trick Dyspo, he explicitly plotted against the gods, ne repeatedly said that he "needs" Goku to work for him. He probably didn't save him repeatedly for team-play love. To sum it up: Frieza will meet the villain's fate. I still hope that he will become a sort of anti-hero like the first vegeta. It is unlikely though: Frieza has done terrible things in the past, has given many hints of evil nature in the Top and seems to be beyond any kind of redemption. Still I hope that Goku's redeeming power will affect also Frieza and make him give up his evil plans.

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Re: Should Frieza have an heroic moment?

Postby Bullza » Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:33 pm

I'm pretty sure, evil or not, if you were to spend a massively intense 58 minutes battling in a Tournament with team mates for the sake of your entire universe, that you would change to some extent.

It would actually have been really disappointing if after all of this, Frieza is still the same character with the same obsession with killing Goku.

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Re: Should Frieza have an heroic moment?

Postby Deathbeam » Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:56 pm

Bullza wrote:It would actually have been really disappointing if after all of this, Frieza is still the same character with the same obsession with killing Goku.

I agree. But everything points in that direction, including the manga.
Also, unless Frieza becomes the GoD candidate and goes to train with Beerus and Whis, so "disappearing" or decides to come back to space and live his life (VERY unlikely) it is very hard to imagine him training with Goku or Vegeta.
Where can you put Frieza as a good guy or even an antihero without generating the "out of place" feeling?

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Re: Should Frieza have an heroic moment?

Postby Bullza » Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:17 pm

Deathbeam wrote:I agree. But everything points in that direction, including the manga.
Also, unless Frieza becomes the GoD candidate and goes to train with Beerus and Whis, so "disappearing" or decides to come back to space and live his life (VERY unlikely) it is very hard to imagine him training with Goku or Vegeta.
Where can you put Frieza as a good guy or even an antihero without generating the "out of place" feeling?


Well I think they should probably do what you suggested. He should never become good guy as that would ruin the character but I would hope that after all this, he drops his grudge against the Saiyans, he does get revived as was promised and then he sets off on a new path.

Him becoming a God of Destruction candidate and going off with Beerus and Whis to train, that would be pretty interesting I think. That way it could keep him relevant power level wise and he could stay up there with the other top characters.

It would be an ideal way of getting a new of transformation out of him down the line as well, like they did with Toppo.

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Re: Should Frieza have an heroic moment?

Postby Nickolaidas » Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:35 pm

Deathbeam wrote:I've seen (couldn't read because it is not yet translated) chapter 34 of the manga. Frieza has clearly been represented as a villain. He has condamned universe 9 to erasure while piccolo was hesitating before delivering the final blow. He betrayed Frost after having him eliminating almost all universe 9,crilin and tien. Especially letting Frost eliminate 2 of his teammates ke clearly a villainous act. Also the anime shows his bad attitude: he double crossed Frost, he tried to trick Dyspo, he explicitly plotted against the gods, ne repeatedly said that he "needs" Goku to work for him. He probably didn't save him repeatedly for team-play love. To sum it up: Frieza will meet the villain's fate. I still hope that he will become a sort of anti-hero like the first vegeta. It is unlikely though: Frieza has done terrible things in the past, has given many hints of evil nature in the Top and seems to be beyond any kind of redemption. Still I hope that Goku's redeeming power will affect also Frieza and make him give up his evil plans.


Nah, I don't see him any more evil or scheming than he already is / was in the anime ToP. Also remember that it was only until UI Goku and Anilaza that Frieza displayed something other than pure malice. Manga has yet to go there.

We'll see. Frankly, as long as Frieza stays relevant, I don't really mind whether he becomes GoD candidate, an ally or an arch nemesis - I just don't want the guy to fade into obscurity as he did for so many years.

Guy has so much potential as a character - plot *and* development wise.


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