Should Frieza have an heroic moment?

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Re: Should Frieza have an heroic moment?

Postby precita » Sun Oct 08, 2017 4:26 pm

gohan_black wrote:
precita wrote:If Freeza turns good completely I'm burning all my DVDs of Dragonball and erasing all my files on the computer of anything Dragonball and quitting the franchise forever. And ever.


define ''turn good''? frieza is a psychopath. sadistic and all but why should he hate goku and the z fighters after this? they revived him. they gave him another chance and thats it. his revenge plans are over. dosent mean that he ''turn good'' just dosent have any motivation for revenge anymore


Freeza definitely does still want revenge and has a hatred for Goku. Freeza is not Vegeta or Piccolo, he's a 100% pure evil psychopath bent on destruction and conquest.

If Freeza becomes an ally it will be the biggest jump the shark moment in Dragonball history, the franchise will be ruined forever, and it will be the final straw that breaks the camels back. It's actually the only thing that would make me quit watching Super 100% and pretend it never existed, and I like Super so I hope it never comes to that.

Please god no. Just please god NO.

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Re: Should Frieza have an heroic moment?

Postby gohan_black » Sun Oct 08, 2017 5:56 pm

precita wrote:
gohan_black wrote:
precita wrote:If Freeza turns good completely I'm burning all my DVDs of Dragonball and erasing all my files on the computer of anything Dragonball and quitting the franchise forever. And ever.


define ''turn good''? frieza is a psychopath. sadistic and all but why should he hate goku and the z fighters after this? they revived him. they gave him another chance and thats it. his revenge plans are over. dosent mean that he ''turn good'' just dosent have any motivation for revenge anymore


Freeza definitely does still want revenge and has a hatred for Goku. Freeza is not Vegeta or Piccolo, he's a 100% pure evil psychopath bent on destruction and conquest.

If Freeza becomes an ally it will be the biggest jump the shark moment in Dragonball history, the franchise will be ruined forever, and it will be the final straw that breaks the camels back. It's actually the only thing that would make me quit watching Super 100% and pretend it never existed, and I like Super so I hope it never comes to that.

Please god no. Just please god NO.


as a long time dragon ball fan i hope that moment will come. i want frieza to turn good.

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Re: Should Frieza have an heroic moment?

Postby Benedetto12 » Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:27 pm

Freeza is obviously helping Universe 7 for his ulterior goals, he must ensure that his team wins, so he will get resurrected by Goku, he is not helping them because he likes them suddenly, they all have a common goal which is winning, he already helped and worked together with Gohan and now it seems he will help Goku by healing him, he knows that Gohan and Goku are some of the strongest members of his teams, along Vegeta (I don´t think he knows how powerful 17 is) so he is helping them because with them on the field winning is easier, he didn´t show to help Krillin, Tien or Roshi, because he thinks they are weaks

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Re: Should Frieza have an heroic moment?

Postby Bullza » Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:42 pm

Well that's kind of the thing, Frieza does want revenge on the Saiyans and everything he is doing is probably just in his own selfish interest working towards some sinister plot for later.

But I don't want that to happen, I also don't think the series really needs that to happen yet again either.

So yes I'm still hoping that it will come down to Goku and Frieza against Jiren. And it will be such a tough battle that there will be no other choice but for them to genuinely work together and help each other in order to win.

Then after such a tremendous struggle and an epic battle, the experience from it all will be enough for Goku and Frieza to finally come to terms with each other. They certainly wouldn't become friends or anything but Frieza would drop whatever plan he has to get revenge to move on with his life.

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Re: Should Frieza have an heroic moment?

Postby Lord Beerus » Mon Oct 09, 2017 12:09 pm

I think they're be building up to it. Freeza willingly giving energy to Goku to perform and attack that was used on him and openly stated that he didn't like seeing again, makes me think it could lead to anti-villain where he'll give energy to Goku ensure he survives, as the NEP for Episode 111 seems to imply.

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Re: Should Frieza have an heroic moment?

Postby precita » Mon Oct 09, 2017 6:09 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:I think they're be building up to it. Freeza willingly giving energy to Goku to perform and attack that was used on him and openly stated that he didn't like seeing again, makes me think it could lead to anti-villain where he'll give energy to Goku ensure he survives, as the NEP for Episode 111 seems to imply.


This is the same episode that ended with Freeza standing over a defeated Goku menacingly reminding him of Planet Namek. There's no doubt in my mind Freeza's only withstraining himself till the tournament ends, since he can't get himself disqualified by killing Goku

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Re: Should Frieza have an heroic moment?

Postby BlueBasilisk » Mon Oct 09, 2017 6:20 pm

precita wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:I think they're be building up to it. Freeza willingly giving energy to Goku to perform and attack that was used on him and openly stated that he didn't like seeing again, makes me think it could lead to anti-villain where he'll give energy to Goku ensure he survives, as the NEP for Episode 111 seems to imply.


This is the same episode that ended with Freeza standing over a defeated Goku menacingly reminding him of Planet Namek. There's no doubt in my mind Freeza's only withstraining himself till the tournament ends, since he can't get himself disqualified by killing Goku

But what part of Namek does it remind him of? The last time they were in that position, Goku took mercy on him and gave him energy so he could survive. That looks to be what Frieza's doing here. He had a very calculating look on his face when he watched the gods reacting to Ultra Instinct.

I can't see Frieza really becoming *good* like Piccolo or Vegeta did. He's way too much of an asshole. But he could settle into some kind of "token evil teammate" role. They keep bringing him back so just keep him around instead of killing him off over and over.

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Re: Should Frieza have an heroic moment?

Postby Jigurashi » Mon Oct 09, 2017 6:42 pm

I'd love for the biggest fight to be Goku and Freeza teaming up to fight Jiren.

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Re: Should Frieza have an heroic moment?

Postby Nickolaidas » Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:17 am

What I’m about to say is clearly my opinion, and it isn’t a fact in any way - despite being written as such. Blame it on my pathos for the character and my fanboyism. Indulge me.

The way I see it, the writers and/or Toriyama changed their minds about what they wanted to do with Frieza. This ‘change’ seems to have occurred sometime between the RoF and the ToP arcs (possibly during Black). But what was the change?

Let’s take into account a couple of things.

Frieza has clearly evolved as a character ever since Goku found him in Hell and told him about the Tournament. All those years he was in hell, even in RoF, he was writhing, hissing and cursing his demise like a madman, spitting bile and anger towards everyone near him. He got resurrected only to growl and hiss once more and rushed to Goku to fight him after a hasty training session, planning be damned.

But when Goku finds him in Hell, he finds a different Frieza. A calm, collected Frieza. A Frieza who is bargaining and naming terms in order to help him with the Tournament.

And that’s where things are getting interesting.

In Dragon Ball tradition, when a villain is calm, he is in complete control of the situation. As long as the Big Bad is calm, the heroes are in trouble. Once the villain loses his cool, he loses his hype. Once he loses his hype, he’s game for Goku and co. While it’s not impossible to turn the tables for a while, a villain who loses his cool in Dragon Ball is a villain whose significance to the plot begins to diminish (Cell is a complicated kinda-exception to this).

So when Goku finds Frieza in Hell, we see a Frieza who wishes to redeem his hype in the eyes of the viewers. We see a Frieza who utterly crushes the assassins U9 sends to kill him, a Frieza who makes Goku gasp with the display of his power.

Frieza: Tranquility that cannot stir water ... combined with the ultimate intensity ... This is Golden Frieza!!
Goku: K-K-k!!!!

We see a Frieza who performs feats that Goku (seemingly) cannot. He broke out of the Hakai sphere while Goku (seemingly) couldn’t. The show is portraying Frieza as a superior to the Hero.

So obviously, the writers wish to make Frieza a legitimate threat again. Why would they want that? Why give a villain such a tremendous power-up if he’s not to do anything significant in the series?

Now let’s observe the tournament of Power. So far, during the Tournament, characters have lost their cool, had sweat running down their chins, got knocked out, got knocked down, lost their power, got panicked, got beaten, got afraid and became unsure of how to deal with a situation. Even Jiren, took a powerful hit from Ultra Goku and gasped in pain. All known characters shown in the tournament so far have experienced pain, fear and lost their cool at times.

All except one. (Jiren is also a lot of the things below, but it is to be expected since he’s the main Antagonist of this arc and his significance to the plot is still strong).

Frieza is portrayed as an incredibly powerful and scheming individual in the Tournament. He has yet to lose his cool. He has yet to be humbled by an opponent. He has yet to experience agony, fear or loss of composure. He has ridiculed every single fighter he tussled with so far.

In Dragon Ball terms, he is a character who is in complete control of the situation.

The mere fact that Goku constantly gulped whenever Jiren did anything on screen, while Frieza casually said that ‘Quite a monster is on the loose’, is really interesting. Frieza is no longer a creature who goes berserk whenever someone surpasses him in power. We see a Frieza who realizes the difference in power between him and Goku/Jiren, and actually smiles. This is a character who is cooking up Xanatos Gambits left and right. This is (seemingly) a character who wins, even if he loses. This is a character who the writers are taking great pains to ensure he remains cool and badass, despite two elephants in the room overpowering him a hundred times.

Why are the writers doing that? Why are they so protective of Frieza’s calm composure? Why do they ensure that he won’t lose hype, if they aren’t planning to do a major event with the character later on?

When Goku becomes Ultra, Frieza refuses to lose his cool, remains calm and collected when at the same time GODS ARE LOSING THEIR SHIT LEFT AND RIGHT.

In a series where keeping your cool = hype and significance, in a plot point where Gods are losing their cool (thus, begin to have their hype diminished), Frieza keeps his cool. In hype terms, at that specific moment, the writers seem to want Frieza to look more badass than the Gods themselves.

And then we have the last 40 seconds of episode 110. Those two shots of Frieza. Seriously, tell me when there was another moment in Dragon Ball history where a villain looked more sinister, more creepy, more chilling-as-fuck as that final shot of Frieza.

This isn’t a character who came back just to come back. This isn’t a character the writers brought back for shits and giggles. This is a character who *matters* to the story. This is a character who *will* have impact, who is in complete control, has a plan, and when his plan comes into fruition, our heroes shall know true despair.

But above all, this is a character the writers are backing. And in Dragon Ball - heck, in almost every form of storytelling - you don’t get any stronger than that.

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Re: Should Frieza have an heroic moment?

Postby Kishido » Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:17 pm

Jigurashi wrote:I'd love for the biggest fight to be Goku and Freeza teaming up to fight Jiren.


Like in the Heroes trailer... I would love it... Freeza for sure has his own goals in mind but he is far too smart to not realize that only Goku can beat Jiren.

So maybe Freeza will stall some time ala Vegeta for Goku to power up while reminding him on their deal before being knocked out.

BUT there is still one main thing... Which Freeza himself doesn't know.

He himself ORDERED Goku to revive him with the EARTH DBs... Goku agreed... I know Goku is dumb... But he for sure knows of the Earth DBs that they can't revive the same person twice... So either he played Freeza and he will stay dead or he has to use the Super DBs or Namek ones.

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Re: Should Frieza have an heroic moment?

Postby Arugela » Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:38 pm

I thought the inability to bring someone back twice was changed with the new dragon balls dende made.

Thinking about it. What if freeza heard him and that is why he grabbed him and pointed the energy beam at him! Regardless of the answer to the above question. Freeza might not know of any changes since he's been dead along time. In fact would he?

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Re: Should Frieza have an heroic moment?

Postby Bullza » Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:41 pm

I really do hope it comes down to Goku and Frieza vs Jiren.

I actually think Frieza is going to outlast Vegeta and Gohan in this Tournament. Seeing Goku and Frieza and team up would be too fun of an idea for them to pass up.

And because Frieza would actually help Goku to win in the end, I think Goku really will revive him.

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Re: Should Frieza have an heroic moment?

Postby Kishido » Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:52 pm

Arugela wrote:I thought the inability to bring someone back twice was changed with the new dragon balls dende made.

Thinking about it. What if freeza heard him and that is why he grabbed him and pointed the energy beam at him! Regardless of the answer to the above question. Freeza might not know of any changes since he's been dead along time. In fact would he?


It never was said that the rule changed

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Re: Should Frieza have an heroic moment?

Postby Bullza » Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:00 pm

So he saved Goku in this episode from being eliminated.....so that's sort of a good deed he had.

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Re: Should Frieza have an heroic moment?

Postby majinwarman » Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:21 pm

Bullza wrote:So he saved Goku in this episode from being eliminated.....so that's sort of a good deed he had.

Not really, considering everyone on the team doesn't want Goku eliminated. I mean Freeza needs Goku to fight Jiren.
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Re: Should Frieza have an heroic moment?

Postby Bullza » Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:28 pm

majinwarman wrote:Not really, considering everyone on the team doesn't want Goku eliminated. I mean Freeza needs Goku to fight Jiren.


It was still a good guy thing that he did though, he did save Goku from elimination which is what I mentioned in the OP. Not quite what I had in mind, it might still happen though but the smallish things is what this thread is about sort of.

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Re: Should Frieza have an heroic moment?

Postby majinwarman » Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:31 pm

Bullza wrote:
majinwarman wrote:Not really, considering everyone on the team doesn't want Goku eliminated. I mean Freeza needs Goku to fight Jiren.


It was still a good guy thing that he did though, he did save Goku from elimination which is what I mentioned in the OP. Not quite what I had in mind, it might still happen though but the smallish things is what this thread is about sort of.

I guess we should define that moment as Freeza being helpful.
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Re: Should Frieza have an heroic moment?

Postby julianix » Mon Dec 25, 2017 3:12 am

Nickolaidas wrote:What I’m about to say is clearly my opinion, and it isn’t a fact in any way - despite being written as such. Blame it on my pathos for the character and my fanboyism. Indulge me.

The way I see it, the writers and/or Toriyama changed their minds about what they wanted to do with Frieza. This ‘change’ seems to have occurred sometime between the RoF and the ToP arcs (possibly during Black). But what was the change?

Let’s take into account a couple of things.

Frieza has clearly evolved as a character ever since Goku found him in Hell and told him about the Tournament. All those years he was in hell, even in RoF, he was writhing, hissing and cursing his demise like a madman, spitting bile and anger towards everyone near him. He got resurrected only to growl and hiss once more and rushed to Goku to fight him after a hasty training session, planning be damned.

But when Goku finds him in Hell, he finds a different Frieza. A calm, collected Frieza. A Frieza who is bargaining and naming terms in order to help him with the Tournament.

And that’s where things are getting interesting.

In Dragon Ball tradition, when a villain is calm, he is in complete control of the situation. As long as the Big Bad is calm, the heroes are in trouble. Once the villain loses his cool, he loses his hype. Once he loses his hype, he’s game for Goku and co. While it’s not impossible to turn the tables for a while, a villain who loses his cool in Dragon Ball is a villain whose significance to the plot begins to diminish (Cell is a complicated kinda-exception to this).

So when Goku finds Frieza in Hell, we see a Frieza who wishes to redeem his hype in the eyes of the viewers. We see a Frieza who utterly crushes the assassins U9 sends to kill him, a Frieza who makes Goku gasp with the display of his power.

Frieza: Tranquility that cannot stir water ... combined with the ultimate intensity ... This is Golden Frieza!!
Goku: K-K-k!!!!

We see a Frieza who performs feats that Goku (seemingly) cannot. He broke out of the Hakai sphere while Goku (seemingly) couldn’t. The show is portraying Frieza as a superior to the Hero.

So obviously, the writers wish to make Frieza a legitimate threat again. Why would they want that? Why give a villain such a tremendous power-up if he’s not to do anything significant in the series?

Now let’s observe the tournament of Power. So far, during the Tournament, characters have lost their cool, had sweat running down their chins, got knocked out, got knocked down, lost their power, got panicked, got beaten, got afraid and became unsure of how to deal with a situation. Even Jiren, took a powerful hit from Ultra Goku and gasped in pain. All known characters shown in the tournament so far have experienced pain, fear and lost their cool at times.

All except one. (Jiren is also a lot of the things below, but it is to be expected since he’s the main Antagonist of this arc and his significance to the plot is still strong).

Frieza is portrayed as an incredibly powerful and scheming individual in the Tournament. He has yet to lose his cool. He has yet to be humbled by an opponent. He has yet to experience agony, fear or loss of composure. He has ridiculed every single fighter he tussled with so far.

In Dragon Ball terms, he is a character who is in complete control of the situation.

The mere fact that Goku constantly gulped whenever Jiren did anything on screen, while Frieza casually said that ‘Quite a monster is on the loose’, is really interesting. Frieza is no longer a creature who goes berserk whenever someone surpasses him in power. We see a Frieza who realizes the difference in power between him and Goku/Jiren, and actually smiles. This is a character who is cooking up Xanatos Gambits left and right. This is (seemingly) a character who wins, even if he loses. This is a character who the writers are taking great pains to ensure he remains cool and badass, despite two elephants in the room overpowering him a hundred times.

Why are the writers doing that? Why are they so protective of Frieza’s calm composure? Why do they ensure that he won’t lose hype, if they aren’t planning to do a major event with the character later on?

When Goku becomes Ultra, Frieza refuses to lose his cool, remains calm and collected when at the same time GODS ARE LOSING THEIR SHIT LEFT AND RIGHT.

In a series where keeping your cool = hype and significance, in a plot point where Gods are losing their cool (thus, begin to have their hype diminished), Frieza keeps his cool. In hype terms, at that specific moment, the writers seem to want Frieza to look more badass than the Gods themselves.

And then we have the last 40 seconds of episode 110. Those two shots of Frieza. Seriously, tell me when there was another moment in Dragon Ball history where a villain looked more sinister, more creepy, more chilling-as-fuck as that final shot of Frieza.

This isn’t a character who came back just to come back. This isn’t a character the writers brought back for shits and giggles. This is a character who *matters* to the story. This is a character who *will* have impact, who is in complete control, has a plan, and when his plan comes into fruition, our heroes shall know true despair.

But above all, this is a character the writers are backing. And in Dragon Ball - heck, in almost every form of storytelling - you don’t get any stronger than that.

:clap: well said sir.

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Re: Should Frieza have an heroic moment?

Postby Potanical Pardon » Mon Dec 25, 2017 5:08 am

Sure. He's both the hero that we deserve and the hero that we need.

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Re: Should Frieza have an heroic moment?

Postby SupremeKai25 » Mon Dec 25, 2017 5:28 am

a villain who loses his cool in Dragon Ball is a villain whose significance to the plot begins to diminish (Cell is a complicated kinda-exception to this).


Zamasu is the exception. He won when the last fraction of his sanity was gone. Unlike most villains, who lose when they can no longer keep their composure.
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