Deconstructing Your Greatest Criticisms with Super

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Li'l Lemmy
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Re: Deconstructing Your Greatest Criticisms with Super

Post by Li'l Lemmy » Mon Jul 24, 2017 10:27 pm

The thing about the fanbase is that the original run of DragonBall and DragonBall Z did not take place is this digical media age where anyone and everyone could jump onto a forum and vent their opinions. I imagine that if it had we would be seeing a lot of the same discussions and differences in opinion that we see now. The original run actually benefits from taking place in a time before all that nonsense.
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Re: Deconstructing Your Greatest Criticisms with Super

Post by Lord Beerus » Tue Jul 25, 2017 8:56 pm

The general vague nature of the narrative. Dragon Ball's never had a detailed story, and the world building itself isn't all it's cracked up to be, but sometimes Super seemw more than often contempt to just take the option of not bothering to provide any kind of detail or background or tidbit for scenarios where really desperately needs it. Some situations are acceptably with keeping the nature of them vague if the context if appropriate, such a transformation occurring which the cast in-universe are unaware that could have even possibly exist. But you can't just introduce a concept like God ki, and have the main character training being centered around it, and not anything with the concept beyond stating that you have it prevent you ki from leaking out. What does that even mean?

That is the biggest issue I have with Super. Not taking the time to explain half of the shit that happens.
Li'l Lemmy wrote:The thing about the fanbase is that the original run of DragonBall and DragonBall Z did not take place is this digical media age where anyone and everyone could jump onto a forum and vent their opinions. I imagine that if it had we would be seeing a lot of the same discussions and differences in opinion that we see now. The original run actually benefits from taking place in a time before all that nonsense.
That is a really good point. You really have to wonder how some fans would react to watching Dragon Ball or Z on once-a-week basis much like audiences in Japan did.

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Re: Deconstructing Your Greatest Criticisms with Super

Post by BlueBasilisk » Tue Jul 25, 2017 9:05 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:The general vague nature of the narrative. Dragon Ball's never had a detailed story, and the world building itself isn't all it's cracked up to be, but sometimes Super seemw more than often contempt to just take the option of not bothering to provide any kind of detail or background or tidbit for scenarios where really desperately needs it. Some situations are acceptably with keeping the nature of them vague if the context if appropriate, such a transformation occurring which the cast in-universe are unaware that could have even possibly exist. But you can't just introduce a concept like God ki, and have the main character training being centered around it, and not anything with the concept beyond stating that you have it prevent you ki from leaking out. What does that even mean?

That is the biggest issue I have with Super. Not taking the time to explain half of the shit that happens.
Li'l Lemmy wrote:The thing about the fanbase is that the original run of DragonBall and DragonBall Z did not take place is this digical media age where anyone and everyone could jump onto a forum and vent their opinions. I imagine that if it had we would be seeing a lot of the same discussions and differences in opinion that we see now. The original run actually benefits from taking place in a time before all that nonsense.
That is a really good point. You really have to wonder how some fans would react to watching Dragon Ball or Z on once-a-week basis much like audiences in Japan did.
I can't remember if I saw it here or on the DBZ subreddit, but someone posted archived discussions from an old DBZ group on...I believe it was Usenet dating back to the mid 90s and the discussions really weren't all that different from the ones we've been having here.

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Re: Deconstructing Your Greatest Criticisms with Super

Post by Lord Beerus » Tue Jul 25, 2017 9:22 pm

BlueBasilisk wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:The general vague nature of the narrative. Dragon Ball's never had a detailed story, and the world building itself isn't all it's cracked up to be, but sometimes Super seemw more than often contempt to just take the option of not bothering to provide any kind of detail or background or tidbit for scenarios where really desperately needs it. Some situations are acceptably with keeping the nature of them vague if the context if appropriate, such a transformation occurring which the cast in-universe are unaware that could have even possibly exist. But you can't just introduce a concept like God ki, and have the main character training being centered around it, and not anything with the concept beyond stating that you have it prevent you ki from leaking out. What does that even mean?

That is the biggest issue I have with Super. Not taking the time to explain half of the shit that happens.
Li'l Lemmy wrote:The thing about the fanbase is that the original run of DragonBall and DragonBall Z did not take place is this digical media age where anyone and everyone could jump onto a forum and vent their opinions. I imagine that if it had we would be seeing a lot of the same discussions and differences in opinion that we see now. The original run actually benefits from taking place in a time before all that nonsense.
That is a really good point. You really have to wonder how some fans would react to watching Dragon Ball or Z on once-a-week basis much like audiences in Japan did.
I can't remember if I saw it here or on the DBZ subreddit, but someone posted archived discussions from an old DBZ group on...I believe it was Usenet dating back to the mid 90s and the discussions really weren't all that different from the ones we've been having here.
Really? I'd love to see that archive of discussions.

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Re: Deconstructing Your Greatest Criticisms with Super

Post by BlueBasilisk » Tue Jul 25, 2017 9:41 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:Really? I'd love to see that archive of discussions.

I'll poke around and see if I can find the thread!
Last edited by BlueBasilisk on Tue Jul 25, 2017 9:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Deconstructing Your Greatest Criticisms with Super

Post by Lord Beerus » Tue Jul 25, 2017 9:42 pm

BlueBasilisk wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:Really? I'd love to see that archive of discussions.

I'll poke around and see if I can find the thread!
That would be great. Thanks :thumbup:

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Re: Deconstructing Your Greatest Criticisms with Super

Post by BlueBasilisk » Tue Jul 25, 2017 9:45 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
BlueBasilisk wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:Really? I'd love to see that archive of discussions.

I'll poke around and see if I can find the thread!
That would be great. Thanks :thumbup:
Hey, that was easy. here it is: https://www.reddit.com/r/dbz/comments/5 ... m_the_90s/

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Re: Deconstructing Your Greatest Criticisms with Super

Post by Lord Beerus » Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:07 pm

BlueBasilisk wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:
BlueBasilisk wrote:
I'll poke around and see if I can find the thread!
That would be great. Thanks :thumbup:
Hey, that was easy. here it is: https://www.reddit.com/r/dbz/comments/5 ... m_the_90s/
OH. MY. GOD. What a gold mine.

And it really put's into perspective the Dragon Ball fandom:
I have a question! I haven't been keeping up-to-date with Dragonball Z lately, so I don't know who that purple-haired guy is. And how could there be anyone who is more powerful than Freeza???
Irregardless of what era, the Dragon Ball fandom, with use the internet, to vented their frustration and anger at Dragon Ball's bullshit. Nothing has changed.
Vejita creates a little full moon and turns into a were-monkey Gokuu realizes that he'd been a were-monkey once himself, many years ago, and had killed his beloved granfather by accident Gohan turns into a were-monkey
"were-monkey". :P
I'm not totally sure what race Furiiza/Freeza was from, or if 2 or 3 people is a race at all, but it probrobally would have something to do with temperature.
More than 20 years later and we still have no idea what Freeza's race is. It was just as much of an issue back than as it is now. :D
I haven't seen/read much at all of the Majin section (I am trying to avoid it, it is looking kinda bad compared to the rest)
Wow. The fandom really jumped on the anti-Majin Boo arc bandwagon much quicker than we thought. :)

But this is my favorite post:
Frankly, I can't exactly call Chaozu normal either. Not to get off topic, but has anyone ever wondered about Ten-san and Chaozu's, um, relationship? They seem to be...(voice mode: sukebe) special friends (voice mode: default)
:lol: :clap: :lol:

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Re: Deconstructing Your Greatest Criticisms with Super

Post by Esfír Dedragón » Wed Jul 26, 2017 3:12 pm

sintzu wrote:I'd say the thing that triggers me the most is bad writing (characters acting out of character, exaggerated charactaristics, ruining the lore, etc) and bad choreographed fights.
I concur.

I also have several specific things about the show that just bring out the worst in me that would be considered "petty" by other people.

Apparently, most people this forum don't understand or sympathize with my metaphorical "Universe-destroying" hatred of the TrunksxMai relationship (and the Pilaf Gang), the Super Saiyan God concept & subsequent transformations, time-travel shenanigans made by Zamasu, Goku Black, Frieza coming back, and the inclusion of Jaco and Tights into Dragon Ball.
DRAGON BALL IS THE KING OF (Fighting) ANIME!!!!!!! In my opinion, at least... :think:

My reaction to anything about Dragon Ball post-2013 that I don't like and/or is stupid. :P
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Re: Deconstructing Your Greatest Criticisms with Super

Post by Shaqazooloo » Sat Aug 05, 2017 9:57 am

Akyon wrote:I certainly lost my rag when we heard of the spoilers for this week's episodes.

I am a HUGE fan of the Z fighters in general and Krillin being the stand out. When I heard he was out already I became rather irritable. At first I thought it was just because "mah boy" was already out and frankly I find his fights tend to be some of the more creative.

But then I realised it wasn't just that. Certainly a factor, but I'd have been just as mad had 17 been kicked out first and that is due to build up.

I was fuming when Buu was announced to drop out AGAIN to be replaced by Frieza and I far prefer Frieza to Buu as a character.

My biggest issue is the lack of payoff for character build up overall.

Krillin goes through three episodes of 'getting his fighting spirit back' and there is plenty of 'we need Krillin's quick thinking fighting style' and even 'Krillin, survive til the end! That is an order!" and then after an admittedly decent showing he's KO'd in such a simple way that makes him look like a novice. First out. Disappointing. Feels like he only got hyped to make it seem shocking when he went out first.

Buu trains and trains and trains. Gets involved in the prelim fights and shows he's a useful asset...then immediately is removed from the competition because it's a running gag. Never mind that Buu is pumped up for a fight for once. Never mind that Satan is now removed from even witnessing the tournament despite being one of the few people in the know...nothing. Seemed like we were going somewhere and then we weren't.

Goku is told not to let his guard down. He ignores this and apparently learns how important it is every arc but still does the same stupid mistake.

Gohan swears to get serious about training after Piccolo dies in RoF. Doesn't bother coming to the U6 tournament. Claims it's because of work. Later quits his job to spend more time with Pan. Doesn't do any training on the side til this arc.

Yamcha kept getting cut away to for the whole ToP as if it was leading up to one big gag where he finds out they picked Frieza over him and he's broken up, but hey; no pay off even for the cruel joke at Yamcha's expense.

I'm half expecting Frieza to forget he's teamed up with Frost by episode 102 going by the previous examples and thus any time we get these weird ass build ups with no payoff they feel like total wastes of the audience, and animators time.

Payoff! It's important! (To me anyway)
I have the same issue with the show. It really rustles my jimmies when the character build up or foreshadowing goes nowhere. The past couple of episodes have really irritated me because characters that were given screen-time turned out to be nothing more than fodder, it makes me feel like the shows is going out of it's way to retroactively waste my time. I would really like some payoff for the build up writers!

The lack of payoff leads into my major problem with the show, its lack of consistency and direction. I'm not just talking about inconsistency with power scaling (Goku Black arc), i'm talking about the show overall (atleast lately) has no consistency with character development, personalities, build up, foreshadowing, fights, and what they establish or imply.

For example the show went out of its way to point out that the arena is made out of the hardest alloy of all universes then proceeded to have Gods of Destruction fight on it leading one to believe that only God tier characters could make a dent in it, yet a couple episodes later the arena is completely trashed with no explanation as to why or how it happened and then we see ssj1 characters destroy bits of the ring as if its wet tissue paper.

As Aykon said the show tends to have Goku learn not to drop his guard only to have him drop his guard in the next encounter.

18 and Vegeta's personalities seem to be completely different depending on episodes, especially 18. At one point she seemed to have absolute faith in her husbands abilities and looked at him with adoration, however later she seems mildly surprised if he does something even remotely impressive and is one to employ a little tough love towards him. Later she is seen as having no faith in her husbands abilities and being openly vocal about it, at times she seems cold and indifferent to him, to loving and vengeful for any wrong doing towards her lover.

Fights start or are hinted at only to be stopped with no conclusion or never begin in the first place. A big example of that would be Vegeta vs Botamo and Megetta. The fight just ends when Vegeta jumps away, Botamo and Megetta don't even bother given pursuit, then incomes Cabba out of nowhere to (uncharacteristically) challenge Vegeta, However, after that, Cabba disappears for the rest of the episode and the ones following it.

*sigh* Krillin... episode 99 feels like it was written by someone that lives on a different planet if you view it immediately after episodes 75,76 and/or 84. What we were shown in those episodes were Krillin being competent, being taken seriously, overcoming himself and getting his groove back, being shown to be stronger than we think, using new and interesting strategies, being made to look like he matters and being respected by the writers. Episode 99 more or less treated him like a gag character, made it look like he didn't matter in the slightest, he looked like a complete amateur, he came off as about as strong or weaker than we thought he was and nothing really new was used with him despite it being hinted at in earlier episodes. It really pissed me off too because prior episodes with the character were actually taken very seriously and they imply that he is gonna train to become crazy strong like a Saiyan character. Was I expecting him to be taking down guys like Hit? No. I was atleast expecting something that was consistent with the character push at the very least.

The consistency, lack of direction and payoff issues with Dragon Ball Super lately have been the bane of my existence and I can only hope that the writers get their crap together and fix it, but I don't think the writers even want to improve the show, I mean, they make money either way, so why bother. :(
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Re: Deconstructing Your Greatest Criticisms with Super

Post by TheZFighter » Sat Aug 05, 2017 12:09 pm

OLKv3 wrote:I hate the fanbase way more than the show
Nailed it.
Z-Fighters fan.

Goku, Yamcha, Krillin, Tien, Chiaotzu, Yajirobe, Gohan, Piccolo, Vegeta, Future Trunks, Android 18, Goten, Trunks and Majin Buu.

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Re: Deconstructing Your Greatest Criticisms with Super

Post by perucho1990 » Sat Aug 05, 2017 12:23 pm

SaiyanGod117 wrote:Super is shit and when all it's all said and done it will be looked backed on and viewed as shit, because it is shit. The series is nothing more then a market ploy, to generate more cash for the company that owns it. With no type of vitality, force, or convinction edged into the writing, production, concepts, themes, or show as a whole. The only department in the show with a sprinkle of that is the animation and unfortunately that is few and far between; the art is off model 95% percent of the time and the shit character designs and schedule doesn't help.
I dont want to sound rude but this kind of post looks like it belongs to MAL, Gamefaqs or 4chan.

Of course Super isnt perfect, the main flaws the series currently has in my opinion is the lack of explanation for certain powerups and how they are handling Non U6/U7 people(see Nigrisshi, Murichim).

Animation looks better than the Black Arc(which was saved by Nozawa and Miki performance).

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