Toei Incompetence: Revisiting the "Sword of Hope" Asspull

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Re: Toei Incompetence: Revisiting the "Sword of Hope" Asspull

Post by Will » Wed Jul 19, 2017 6:50 pm

TheMikado wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:The "Sword Of Hope" is certainly nonsensical, but in a thematic sense, it works extremely well. For the extreme misanthrope that Zamasu/Goku Black was, having being slain by the hands of Saiyans fueled with the energy that remained of Future Trunks world felt extremely cathartic. From the beginning of the end to the end of it Future Trunks was fighting valiantly for what remain of humanity in his world, every step of the way, the humans that remained on Earth supported him every time things looked grim and he was looked up as the hope bringer for the world. So I find the idea of the humans that were left urging Future Trunks on so much so that they innately gave him their power to slain Merged Zamasu very satisfying.
It really was and was perfect symbolism for Trunk representing and carrying the hope of everyone he was protecting. And then Zeno showed up and erased them all...
They were already dead when Zeno show up.
We saw Zamasu killed everyone left on earth when he became one with the universe.

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Re: Toei Incompetence: Revisiting the "Sword of Hope" Asspull

Post by Master Xar » Wed Jul 19, 2017 6:51 pm

I definitely agree that I would have accepted the Sword had they just had two minutes of build-up, or a foreshadow, an explanation ANYTHING. I honestly didn't even mind the Vegito thing too much at all if not a bit upset it's barely longer than the fusion dance. That arc's ending subsequently dragged it down to where people even nowadays think it's worse than Fairy Tail when during that arc Dragon Ball Super was the talk of the town and the absolute hype, albeit with a few flaws and detractors.

I want anyone who is reading this comment to go back to any review/rant on episode 66 and see just how many potential fans have dropped the show and probably won't come back, because someone was too lazy to give the Sword of Hope at least two seconds of thought. I want Dragon Ball Super to be the big comeback of Dragonball, I know it won't be as revolutionary as it's predecessors, but it would still hold up. I love Dragon Ball Super even with its flaws and I want people to enjoy it WITH me, and it's so aggravating that these are easily fixable complaints people have with the show that have been said for YEARS by Japanese and Worldwide fans alike, and I feel that SOMEONE behind the scenes isn't getting with the program here...

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Re: Toei Incompetence: Revisiting the "Sword of Hope" Asspull

Post by Will » Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:01 pm

The sword of Hope was really a memorable and great scene for me, it gives plenty of emotion.

It was awesome in Xenoverse 2 dlc too (spoilers) :
With english voice : https://youtu.be/3ZxnHs2drBs?t=3m56s
In japanese: https://youtu.be/mW689EBnZKI?t=46s

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Re: Toei Incompetence: Revisiting the "Sword of Hope" Asspull

Post by Bullza » Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:47 pm

PeanutSaiyan wrote:One was a supporting event which helped the plot move forward while the other was a no explanation, arc-ending finale that completely ended the fight.
They're the same, except the manga was inferior because all it allowed was for Trunks to put Goku back in the battle and leave Trunks to do the only thing he was good for in the whole saga, comment that on other people doing the work for him.
Keep your trivial bias out if the thread because you are clearly unable to give an objective opinion, thanks.
Compose yourself, there's no need for you to keep getting so irate.

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Re: Toei Incompetence: Revisiting the "Sword of Hope" Asspull

Post by Zephyr » Wed Jul 19, 2017 11:56 pm

Bullza wrote:Still better than the manga ass pull where Trunks could randomly heal people all of a sudden and didn't even know about it.
Its not random, though. He trained under someone whose apprentices can heal. It's literally explained in the work for you.

He never trained under Kaio in the anime, though, so it's odd that he can use his technique. The sword is incomparably less justified than the healing. It's baffling to even see the comparison.

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Re: Toei Incompetence: Revisiting the "Sword of Hope" Asspull

Post by Miracles » Thu Jul 20, 2017 12:24 am

Master Xar wrote:Well this has been boiling under the surface for a while from me, it's one of my biggest frustrations in not only DBS, but the franchise in general, I'm not gonna lie when I say the FT Arc had it's flaws even before episode 66, it felt absolutely FRUSTRATING seeing that asspull, it was cool, yet it was outweighed by the stupidity of it by leaps and bounds.

The Arc itself before that episode at least to me was a 8/10 arc and topped most Dragonball Arcs for me, then that episode came... took it down to a 6/10, hell I even liked the bittersweet end it was an EASILY fixable solution by not gathering the energy and just having Vegito soften up Fused Zamasu. Defuse him before Vegito deals the final blow, have Zamasu nearly kill them like he did in the anime THEN have Trunks go in for the kill WITHOUT the Spirit Bomb rip-off, but the journey to it was just... ugh. I don't even feel like it's Toriyama's fault since it clearly wasn't in the outline revealed yesterday in the manga. It was just Toei being retards...

So the question remains for me here... do you think Toei truly deserves Dragonball? Do you think that they even remotely care about it as much as Toriyama or the fans do? Cuz honestly... the writers' quality varies from Toriyama-level at it's peak and at it's very worse Tite Kubo level...
Care to prove that "Trunks spirit bomb" wasn't in Toriyama's outline? Also, the franchise that pretty much made Dragonball Z a megastar is TOEI animation. They should keep it.
Kubo Tite's one saga in Soul Society arc of Bleach pretty much blows most manga stories outta the water really. So I wouldn't be quick to poke fun at him.
Saikyo no Senshi wrote:First, to address a pet peeve of mine. Toei is not a person. They're a production company where a lot of people work at. The entire company isn't involved with DBS. They have other projects as well. If you can't be bothered to look for the specific staff names of a specific episode, it'd be better to address them as the DBS staff or anime staff instead of blaming the whole studio.

Second, we have no evidence of what is present in Toriyama's outline. Hell, there's a possibility he came up with all of it. But, anyways let's go with the assumption that the staff came up with it.

So, to address the question about incompetence. I don't think Hatano Morio(series director during Trunks arc and episode director/storyboard artist of #66) and Tomioka Atsuhiro(script writer of #66) are incompetent. If you look at their careers they are far from incompetent. Its just they went with a different approach. They didn't prioritize what battle power fans thought they should've. They went with a cool, memorable and bombastic finale approach and I can't blame them for it. They succeeded at it as far as I'm concerned. It is one of the few memorable moments in an otherwise poor show.

And, lastly producers of Toei Animation and Fuji TV came up with the idea of DBS to begin with. DBS wouldn't exist if not for Toei Animation. I'd say they deserve it even if I'm not happy with it. They created it after all. Also, Kubo is awesome by the way.
Great post. Can you explain why you think Kuob is awesome?
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Re: Toei Incompetence: Revisiting the "Sword of Hope" Asspull

Post by Saikyo no Senshi » Thu Jul 20, 2017 12:47 am

Miracles wrote:Great post. Also do you mean Tite Kubo?
Can you explain why you think he is awesome?
Yes, I mean Kubo Tite. The author of popular series Bleach. I have been following his work as of recent and I'm super impressed. His style is my kind of thing. Absolute crazy and fast paced battle action. His angular drawings are awesome. And, not just Bleach, his other works like Zombiepowder are pretty kickass.

Kubo is probably my favorite battle mangaka when it comes to constructing action scenes. Sadly, he doesn't get enough credit for that from what I've seen.

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Re: Toei Incompetence: Revisiting the "Sword of Hope" Asspull

Post by Bullza » Thu Jul 20, 2017 1:37 am

Zephyr wrote:Its not random, though. He trained under someone whose apprentices can heal. It's literally explained in the work for you.
The random ass pull aspect of it is that Trunks didn't know of this ability. If it's something the Supreme Kai had specifically taught him while Trunks was training with him as an apprentice then that would be fine.

But no instead Trunks had no idea he could use such an ability and it turned out the only reason he could do it is because the Supreme Kai danced around him for an entire day. Apparently he never thought to ask him what the purpose of this dance was so that Supreme Kai could say "It'll allow you to restore people".

Then he heals Goku and just sits out and watches other people fight his battles, for like the third time.

At least the ass pulls in the anime lead to a few cool scenes and Trunks actually doing something besides twiddle his thumbs.

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Re: Toei Incompetence: Revisiting the "Sword of Hope" Asspull

Post by Basako » Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:31 am

Zephyr wrote:
Bullza wrote:Still better than the manga ass pull where Trunks could randomly heal people all of a sudden and didn't even know about it.
Its not random, though. He trained under someone whose apprentices can heal. It's literally explained in the work for you.

He never trained under Kaio in the anime, though, so it's odd that he can use his technique. The sword is incomparably less justified than the healing. It's baffling to even see the comparison.
Totally, Trunks curing was unexpected, but it's explained in relation to the previous established story and rules, without falling in contradictions. A comparison maybe could be him using the Mafuba, it's hard to swallow he could learn it that fast, but no plothole there, it's explained. Unlike the spirit sword, it just happens randomly and doesn't fit with anything we knew before.
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Re: Toei Incompetence: Revisiting the "Sword of Hope" Asspull

Post by Zephyr » Thu Jul 20, 2017 8:23 am

Bullza wrote:
Zephyr wrote:Its not random, though. He trained under someone whose apprentices can heal. It's literally explained in the work for you.
The random ass pull aspect of it is that Trunks didn't know of this ability. If it's something the Supreme Kai had specifically taught him while Trunks was training with him as an apprentice then that would be fine.

But no instead Trunks had no idea he could use such an ability and it turned out the only reason he could do it is because the Supreme Kai danced around him for an entire day. Apparently he never thought to ask him what the purpose of this dance was so that Supreme Kai could say "It'll allow you to restore people".
Can we seriously stop with this and voice our concerns using real words already? Why does that make it an "ass pull"? What makes something an "ass pull"? What are the conditions? These vague weasel words are tiring, because they're impossible to reason with, because they're not given any meaning. The complaint is devoid of semantic value. I can't interact with it on any reasonable or meaningful level, unless I take the time to do your job for you and attempt to define your own undefined terms.

I get that the consequence of one leads to Trunks being more of a focus in combat than the consequence of the other. And as far as I can tell, thats what your preference boils down to. That's silly to me, but that's your preference. I can agree to disagree there. It certainly got my blood pumping more than the healing did. But regardless of how much less "epic" it is for Trunks, it isn't as random as the Genki Sama Sword. Describing the circumstances surrounding his acquisition of the healing ability and throwing in a vapid buzzword like "ass pull" here and there isn't sufficient to challenge that assertion.

The purpose of the dance was to make him an apprentice. Being able to heal is a secondary effect. This is, once again, explained in the work for you, if not heavily implied. There aren't any questions that this raises that you can't explain yourself with mere seconds of thought and functioning long term memory:

"Why bother with the dance at all then?"
Likely so he could be allowed to go and train in the Kaioshin Realm. Remember how apprehensive Kibito was about Gohan being there?

"Why didn't he dance around Gohan in the Buu arc?"
Buu was already out and rampaging, time was more of a factor in comparison to a scenario where Babidi hadn't even gone to Earth yet.

"Why didn't Kaioshin tell Trunks?"
Because gaining that ability wasn't the point. Kibito is there. They have a healer. They didn't know about Dabura. It is in character for Shin to withhold information which could be important later on down the line.

What other questions does it honestly raise? None of my answers above are "head canon" or whatever, either. It took me no time at all to remember stuff from the Buu arc and say "oh, that makes sense, then".

Does it feeling like Buu arc writing (at worst) make it an ass pull? I suppose I can see that. The Buu arc was Toriyama running on fumes, after all. But if that's the condition, then nah, they're not comparable in terms of "asspullery". You have to literally fabricate problems out of thin air in order to place them on equal footing in that regard.

You can still prefer the sword due to the surrounding emotion and combat focus it gives Trunks. I'm not contesting that idea at all. It's just utterly insane to argue that they're equally random and devoid of a reasonable explanation within the work itself, especially when one is actually foreshadowed. There's a whole flashback where Trunks trains with Kaioshin and everything! A literal single line of dialog at some point earlier in the arc in the anime implying Trunks went to meet Kaio at some point after killing Cell would be sufficient, but we're not even given something that simple.

To be honest, had Trunks used the sword in the manga, with said throw away line, I'm sure we'd be seeing just as much anti-manga shitposting like this from largely the same crowd. There's some obnoxious fucking tribalism at play there, and I don't know where on Earth the hate boner stems from. The constant cherry picking, selective interpretational charity, selective skepticism, and selective loss of memory is absolutely beyond unreal.

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Re: Toei Incompetence: Revisiting the "Sword of Hope" Asspull

Post by Super_Divine_Genki » Thu Jul 20, 2017 1:11 pm

I really liked the "Sword of Hope", or whatever the official name is. However, I felt that there should've been more build-up for it going into the moment. For example, the genki mysteriously begins covering the area towards the end of the previous episode, and F.Trunks and his group become aware of this presence in the air (F.Trunks feels peace and warmth for unknown reasons)/cut to Ending. It then plays out the same way that it originally did in DBS #66, but throughout its entirety. It's revealed that the genki had been subconsciously pulled into a concentrated area by all of those fighting/hoping in earnest for their world, particularly F.Trunks. It wouldn't require the learning of Kaio's technique which enabled Goku to consciously draw genki from. It would be a flip-side subconscious variant, presented under extremely rare world-ending/purifying conditions.

Or, Goku could've attempted to charge a genki-dama which F.Trunks would absorb, but I don't see how that could've fit unless these events were spread over 2-3 episodes. Not only that, but the theme was for F.Trunks to be the primary savior of his timeline, with everyone playing assist to the final blow. The episode sacrificed quantity to deliver a visual quality finale, and that's what hurts it, imo. It became a ToeiPunch!! moment of plot convenience. And yet, if that's how the physical fight was going to end, I'm glad that the "Sword of Hope" happened -- F.Trunks took the lead instead of bystander to Goku and Vegeta. It's one of the series most memorable moments, and Super has consistently shown that this is how it rolls (which has been a massive problem,imo). I've mentioned before that I'd be so curious to see how this arc and moment would've played out in full-swing 90's presentation. It had great concept, but fell short on execution for various reasons.

Super says: We don't have the resources/budget/staff,etc. that we need, so get to the point already. :p

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Re: Toei Incompetence: Revisiting the "Sword of Hope" Asspull

Post by GodKaio-Ken » Thu Jul 20, 2017 1:43 pm

Basako wrote:
Zephyr wrote:
Bullza wrote:Still better than the manga ass pull where Trunks could randomly heal people all of a sudden and didn't even know about it.
Its not random, though. He trained under someone whose apprentices can heal. It's literally explained in the work for you.

He never trained under Kaio in the anime, though, so it's odd that he can use his technique. The sword is incomparably less justified than the healing. It's baffling to even see the comparison.
Totally, Trunks curing was unexpected, but it's explained in relation to the previous established story and rules, without falling in contradictions. A comparison maybe could be him using the Mafuba, it's hard to swallow he could learn it that fast, but no plothole there, it's explained. Unlike the spirit sword, it just happens randomly and doesn't fit with anything we knew before.
An explanation doesnt make something better if the explanation itself is ridiculous.
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Re: Toei Incompetence: Revisiting the "Sword of Hope" Asspull

Post by Basako » Thu Jul 20, 2017 1:54 pm

GodKaio-Ken wrote: An explanation doesnt make something better if the explanation itself is ridiculous.
Right, it's not just the explanation, it's also the relation and the coherency with the pre established story and rules and a Kaioshin's attendant curing does keep this. People randomly raising hands and an energy ball appearing because yes does not. The Genkidama is a technique that Goku uses, it doesn't happen alone.
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Re: Toei Incompetence: Revisiting the "Sword of Hope" Asspull

Post by Doctor. » Thu Jul 20, 2017 1:58 pm

Saikyo no Senshi wrote: Sadly, he doesn't get enough credit for that from what I've seen.
Because his action setpieces are repetitive and his writing is terrible.

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Re: Toei Incompetence: Revisiting the "Sword of Hope" Asspull

Post by GodKaio-Ken » Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:31 pm

Basako wrote:
GodKaio-Ken wrote: An explanation doesnt make something better if the explanation itself is ridiculous.
Right, it's not just the explanation, it's also the relation and the coherency with the pre established story and rules and a Kaioshin's attendant curing does keep this. People randomly raising hands and an energy ball appearing because yes does not. The Genkidama is a technique that Goku uses, it doesn't happen alone.
I agree that was terrible. I just think the manga does this too is all.

I mean it made Trunks look like an idiot in the manga honestly.
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Re: Toei Incompetence: Revisiting the "Sword of Hope" Asspull

Post by Bullza » Thu Jul 20, 2017 3:39 pm

Zephyr wrote:Why does that make it an "ass pull"? What makes something an "ass pull"?
Because he pulled that ability out of his ass for plot convenience.

So what the story is trying to tell us is that back when Trunks was on the Sacred World of the Kai's, Shin spent the whole day dancing around him performing the "ritual".

Then because of that ritual Trunks can now suddenly heal people. Yet Trunks is not aware that he can do this meaning Shin danced around him the whole day and never thought to actually tell him what the purpose of all that was. Trunks never thought to ask Shin what there was to gain from any of that.

Trunks now having the ability to heal people was some big secret that required Shin withholding that information from him? Why? It's just an healing ability why wouldn't he be told something so simple?

Kibito can heal people so I suppose that means he underwent some ritual but Kibito can also teleport so why can't Trunks? It's conveniently selective too.

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Re: Toei Incompetence: Revisiting the "Sword of Hope" Asspull

Post by VegettoEX » Thu Jul 20, 2017 3:45 pm

Bullza wrote:Then because of that ritual Trunks can now suddenly heal people. Yet Trunks is not aware that he can do this meaning Shin danced around him the whole day and never thought to actually tell him what the purpose of all that was. Trunks never thought to ask Shin what there was to gain from any of that.
Isn't the main purpose to bring out someone's power? I don't see how this is a question. They needed power, they danced... and then Trunks stood up to and defeated Dabra, just we're explicitly shown in the manga. They went off to fight Dabra, and Kaioshin died. No real opportunity to get into the minutia of "oh hey and by the way maybe you also got some healing powers now".

We've been over this elsewhere in relation to Gohan, where we're presuming he didn't get the extra benefits (i.e., the healing power) because Kibito was already still alive and active; in this case, perhaps Gohan didn't inherit the "apprentice" traits the same way Trunks did.

I'm not really going out of my way to explain these things, and it seems really simple to me.

If you're reduced to legitimately describing something as an "asspull", as Zephyr's so perfectly summed up, you probably don't really have an analysis worth reading. Strive for something better.
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Re: Toei Incompetence: Revisiting the "Sword of Hope" Asspull

Post by Nero<>Akira » Thu Jul 20, 2017 3:48 pm

Everyone knows its an asspull. But, it was obviously put there for narrative purposes and is quite genius along with all the other issues regarding Trunks. I've mentioned it several times in other posts. It was complete subversion of PIS, plot devices, etc. once Zeno erased not just Zamasu, but the entire universe. Trunks not only had his own power, but got the power of convenience and still wasn't able to save his world and was left to live in a world living with people he failed and having to look at himself, literally, the failure as with Mai. It was an absolute condemnation of what other shounen's like Fairy Tail do in order to further their narrative and also very dark and tragic. Sometimes we won't succeed. It's a fact of life. But despite that, he and the others around him continue to have hope which is the primary theme of the entire arc and continuation of the entire android arc. Without hope, we can't achieve greatness.
Zamasu is the best DB villain besides Freeza (and this is only the case because the current Super arc elevated Freeza to be that good).

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Re: Toei Incompetence: Revisiting the "Sword of Hope" Asspull

Post by Zagacious » Thu Jul 20, 2017 3:59 pm

There have been plenty of 'asspulls' in DBZ where people got huge power boosts and such to further the plot, but they all had a least somewhat legitimate explanations. What makes FT's Spirit Sword an actual bad asspull is when there is literally zero explanation for how it happened aside from headcanon reasons, not even some sort of foreshadowing showing that he was planning to use it or knew about Spirit bomb, absolutely nothing. It doesn't help that the rest of the ending of Black Arc was rushed as hell so it made the moment even more ridiculous.

Them adding thematic epic music to Trunks ending it honestly made me kind of laugh out loud because the second I hear it I'm literally thinking "They're going to make Trunks whos been struggling the most fighting Black just suddenly end it, really? I could tell it was going to be an asspull the moment they played that music and Trunks was using the sword, it made no sense whatsoever based on the fights we'd seen between Black Goku and Zamasu the few previous episodes.
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Re: Toei Incompetence: Revisiting the "Sword of Hope" Asspull

Post by Bullza » Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:04 pm

VegettoEX wrote:Isn't the main purpose to bring out someone's power? I don't see how this is a question. They needed power, they danced... and then Trunks stood up to and defeated Dabra, just we're explicitly shown in the manga. They went off to fight Dabra, and Kaioshin died. No real opportunity to get into the minutia of "oh hey and by the way maybe you also got some healing powers now".
But it didn't happen all that immediately like you would suggest.

At the start of the chapter Trunks said he had been training in preparation for Babidi's arrival. Who knows how long that preparation was. The chapter then shows the end of Trunks' training where he's swinging around the Z sword and then Dabura and Babidi show up and they suddenly have to rush off to fight them.

Obviously this ritual happened before all this. It apparently took all day to do and at no point before, during or after this ritual did Supreme Kai say "So by doing this you'll get the ability to heal people". There was every opportunity to tell Trunks he had healing powers.

If Elder Kai can tell Gohan what he was getting when Buu was already on the planet killing people then Shin could have told Trunks what he was getting before his enemies had even appeared.

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