Toei Incompetence: Revisiting the "Sword of Hope" Asspull

[Zephyr]

people keep giving the anime shit for doing an ass pull when the manga did the exact same except it was more lame.

My entire point is that they aren't exactly the same, because Trunks never trained with Kaio. It's less of an "asspull" in the manga, to use obnoxious terminology, because he at least did training with someone new before showcasing a new ability. This wasnt pulled out of anyone's ass, it was pulled from the original series and prior chapters of Super. I don't even have a problem with the sword, it's not something I've ever been hung up on, but to think the healing is just as much of an out-of-nowhere plot convenience thing is to ignore a whole big bunch of really clear information.

1. Kibito is Kaioshin's apprentice
2. Kibito can heal
3. Trunks becomes Kaioshin's apprentice
4. Trunks can heal

vs

1. Goku is Kaio's student
2. Goku can use the Genki Dama
3. ???
4. Trunks can use the Genki Dama

Do you see how #3 is absent in the latter scenario? This is why they aren't exactly the same. I literally can't explain it anymore clearly than this.

And holy Christ, acknowledging that one is more out of nowhere doesn't mean that you suddenly have to start hating the sword scene in spite of how solid of an emotional and thematically appropriate moment it is for Trunks, or how much more exciting and adrenaline-pumping it was. Shit was fucking cash, dawg.

Also, I'm still completely bewildered as to why are they not allowed to be selective with which abilities come from where. Your standards for what a writer is allowed to do seem rigid and boring when you say that. There's no reason for a writer to not be allowed to elucidate the origin and source of techniques whose origin and source had previously been ambiguous. And when it had indeed been left ambiguous, then why not take advantage of that by having different techniques come from different places? Why put all of your eggs in one basket?

the explanation itself is stupid.

........because? Why are you here if you don't want to discuss things? If you've indeed already explained it, quote yourself or something.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Actually, isn't the whole point of the Spirit Bomb that it only works on 'EEEEEEEVIL' people? Or was that just in the dub?

The only thing ever established in that regard is that if a Genki Dama is targeting an evil person, someone who isn't evil can deflect it.

[GodKaio-Ken]

people keep giving the anime shit for doing an ass pull when the manga did the exact same except it was more lame.

My entire point is that they aren't exactly the same, because Trunks never trained with Kaio. It's less of an "asspull" in the manga, to use obnoxious terminology, because he at least did training with someone new before showcasing a new ability. This wasnt pulled out of anyone's ass, it was pulled from the original series and prior chapters of Super. I don't even have a problem with the sword, it's not something I've ever been hung up on, but to think the healing is just as much of an out-of-nowhere plot convenience thing is to ignore a whole big bunch of really clear information.

1. Kibito is Kaioshin's apprentice
2. Kibito can heal
3. Trunks becomes Kaioshin's apprentice
4. Trunks can heal

vs

1. Goku is Kaio's student
2. Goku can use the Genki Dama
3. ???
4. Trunks can use the Genki Dama

Do you see how #3 is absent in the latter scenario? This is why they aren't exactly the same. I literally can't explain it anymore clearly than this.

And holy Christ, acknowledging that one is more out of nowhere doesn't mean that you suddenly have to start hating the sword scene in spite of how solid of an emotional and thematically appropriate moment it is for Trunks, or how much more exciting and adrenaline-pumping it was. Shit was fucking cash, dawg.

Also, I'm still completely bewildered as to why are they not allowed to be selective with which abilities come from where. Your standards for what a writer is allowed to do seem rigid and boring when you say that. There's no reason for a writer to not be allowed to elucidate the origin and source of techniques whose origin and source had previously been ambiguous. And when it had indeed been left ambiguous, then why not take advantage of that by having different techniques come from different places? Why put all of your eggs in one basket?

the explanation itself is stupid.

........because? Why are you here if you don't want to discuss things? If you've indeed already explained it, quote yourself or something.

*Sigh*

My post was about logic and covered all I needed to say. A poor explanation doesnt make something well written. As in, you cant just say its a tiny bit explained so its all good.

[Cetra]

people keep giving the anime shit for doing an ass pull when the manga did the exact same except it was more lame.

My entire point is that they aren't exactly the same, because Trunks never trained with Kaio. It's less of an "asspull" in the manga, to use obnoxious terminology, because he at least did training with someone new before showcasing a new ability. This wasnt pulled out of anyone's ass, it was pulled from the original series and prior chapters of Super. I don't even have a problem with the sword, it's not something I've ever been hung up on, but to think the healing is just as much of an out-of-nowhere plot convenience thing is to ignore a whole big bunch of really clear information.

1. Kibito is Kaioshin's apprentice
2. Kibito can heal
3. Trunks becomes Kaioshin's apprentice
4. Trunks can heal

vs

1. Goku is Kaio's student
2. Goku can use the Genki Dama
3. ???
4. Trunks can use the Genki Dama

Except Trunks does not do the Genkidama. He does an equivalent of that move and that is far from far-fetched because this whole "oh, hoo, let's unite our power to form some powerful move" is a popular thing in stories. It does not need to be the Genkidama from Kaiou. They basically could have done the same thing Goku did to defeat Broly by getting the power of the others. All similiar stuff with just another shape. Call it Genkidama, call it cliche friendship-love uniting power, call it whatever you want. It is a normal thing.

[Drellz26]

people keep giving the anime shit for doing an ass pull when the manga did the exact same except it was more lame.

My entire point is that they aren't exactly the same, because Trunks never trained with Kaio. It's less of an "asspull" in the manga, to use obnoxious terminology, because he at least did training with someone new before showcasing a new ability. This wasnt pulled out of anyone's ass, it was pulled from the original series and prior chapters of Super. I don't even have a problem with the sword, it's not something I've ever been hung up on, but to think the healing is just as much of an out-of-nowhere plot convenience thing is to ignore a whole big bunch of really clear information.

1. Kibito is Kaioshin's apprentice
2. Kibito can heal
3. Trunks becomes Kaioshin's apprentice
4. Trunks can heal

vs

1. Goku is Kaio's student
2. Goku can use the Genki Dama
3. ???
4. Trunks can use the Genki Dama

Except Trunks does not do the Genkidama. He does an equivalent of that move and that is far from far-fetched because this whole "oh, hoo, let's unite our power to form some powerful move" is a popular thing in stories. It does not need to be the Genkidama from Kaiou. They basically could have done the same thing Goku did to defeat Broly by getting the power of the others. All similiar stuff with just another shape. Call it Genkidama, call it cliche friendship-love uniting power, call it whatever you want. It is a normal thing.

Eh, I've always thought of those as two different situations. Giving ki to fight with doesn't come off the same as gathering energy for the Genki. What Trunks did was basically a perfect match to how it looks gathering for the Genki Dama as opposed to uniting their power. I'm sure it's the same if we research into it but I for one have always thought they were different.

The saddest part is this thread doesn't happen if we get one or two minutes more of explanation or plot setting throughout The arc. That's a general Super issue though.

[Cetra]

My entire point is that they aren't exactly the same, because Trunks never trained with Kaio. It's less of an "asspull" in the manga, to use obnoxious terminology, because he at least did training with someone new before showcasing a new ability. This wasnt pulled out of anyone's ass, it was pulled from the original series and prior chapters of Super. I don't even have a problem with the sword, it's not something I've ever been hung up on, but to think the healing is just as much of an out-of-nowhere plot convenience thing is to ignore a whole big bunch of really clear information.

1. Kibito is Kaioshin's apprentice
2. Kibito can heal
3. Trunks becomes Kaioshin's apprentice
4. Trunks can heal

vs

1. Goku is Kaio's student
2. Goku can use the Genki Dama
3. ???
4. Trunks can use the Genki Dama

Except Trunks does not do the Genkidama. He does an equivalent of that move and that is far from far-fetched because this whole "oh, hoo, let's unite our power to form some powerful move" is a popular thing in stories. It does not need to be the Genkidama from Kaiou. They basically could have done the same thing Goku did to defeat Broly by getting the power of the others. All similiar stuff with just another shape. Call it Genkidama, call it cliche friendship-love uniting power, call it whatever you want. It is a normal thing.

Eh, I've always thought of those as two different situations. Giving ki to fight with doesn't come off the same as gathering energy for the Genki. What Trunks did was basically a perfect match to how it looks gathering for the Genki Dama as opposed to uniting their power. I'm sure it's the same if we research into it but I for one have always thought they were different.

The saddest part is this thread doesn't happen if we get one or two minutes more of explanation or plot setting throughout The arc. That's a general Super issue though.

Even if they actually provide Genki for one thing and entire Ki for another thing (or whatever they would say), it still does not change the fact that it is the same "united we stand/my love/positive emotions for others will give me the power to overcome my enemy" cliche power to overwhelm the final boss that is typical for stories. And it is also something that very often in one shape or another was also used in Dragon Ball. People just try to find their excused for these other situations when in reality it is all the same thing chewed up again and again. And I personally am fine with it. "power of good will somehow destroy evil" is just a normal fairytale thing that I am used to and have no problem with.

[Dragonballgod19]

The manga was worse because they made trunks useless in his own arc

[BlueBasilisk]

I think my real problem with this moment is that anyone thought it would work. HE'S IMMORTAL, WHAT THE FUCK IS SLICING HIM IN HALF GONNA DO!?

Didn't they say that Zamasu wasn't immortal anymore because he had fused with the mortal Black? I'm pretty sure Vegito said something to that effect.

[Cetra]

I think my real problem with this moment is that anyone thought it would work. HE'S IMMORTAL, WHAT THE FUCK IS SLICING HIM IN HALF GONNA DO!?

Didn't they say that Zamasu wasn't immortal anymore because he had fused with the mortal Black? I'm pretty sure Vegito said something to that effect.

And Gattai Zamasu himself multiple times says that he indeed was immortal. His body began to become this weirdly looking mutation but he had some powers nonetheless. How much it was just regeneration or not was never said.

[The gr]

The manga was worse because they made trunks useless in his own arc

What does this have to do with the topic,and once again people are confusing memes with the manga ,the word your looking is secondary and hes far from useless which is strange goku barely had focus up until mssb so i dont understand this complaint

I'm not in the mood of talking about this scene,is cool,stupid and cheesy at the same time

[GodKaio-Ken]

I think my real problem with this moment is that anyone thought it would work. HE'S IMMORTAL, WHAT THE FUCK IS SLICING HIM IN HALF GONNA DO!?

Didn't they say that Zamasu wasn't immortal anymore because he had fused with the mortal Black? I'm pretty sure Vegito said something to that effect.

His body was no longer immortal but I guess his soul was.

[Bullza]

This wasnt pulled out of anyone's ass, it was pulled from the original series and prior chapters of Super.

This was never alluded to before. Kibito could use restoration powers, they never said it was because he was an attendant. He was never the only character to have such abilities because Dende could do it so naturally you assumed it was an ability he just had.

Then they just suddenly threw at us this idea that all Kaioshin attendants gain the ability to heal. That came out of nowhere. What we're also told is that Supreme Kai had this ability at one point but for some unexplained reason lost that ability when he became a Supreme Kai. So what? He put an earring on and now all of a sudden he can't heal people no more? That's even more plot convenience.

And as I said Trunks not knowing about this ability until the convenient time. Trunks just having enough power to conveniently heal Goku to full strength before being tired and again being unable to fight.

It was all just lousy convenience and was not done well at all nor it was that interesting. The Spirit Bomb came out of nowhere too but yeah that was an exciting and memorable moment.

It's sort of like that whole Potara Fusion only lasting one hour debacle where people kept complaining about that endlessly except that actually was alluded to because they never really knew why exactly they defused.

[Asura]

Your brain has a switch. We all turn it off and on from time to time and there's nothing wrong with that. When you switch your brain off, god damn does that Sword of Hope look so cool. The way he sliced Zamasu in half? Fuck yeah. But now when you turn the switch back on it doesn't look as cool, and it's just another thing to add to the list of "Things that make no fucking sense whatsoever: Future Trunks Arc edition"

But if I'm being honest, the Sword of Hope nonsense could easily be left in exactly as is if they had just cleaned up some of the other inconsistencies and problems with the arc (Like Vegetto's 5min fusion timer, or SSJ Rage, or most important of all the garbage that is Episode 67). There are much bigger fish to fry than the Sword of Hope IMO.

[PeanutSaiyan]

This wasnt pulled out of anyone's ass, it was pulled from the original series and prior chapters of Super.

This was never alluded to before. Kibito could use restoration powers, they never said it was because he was an attendant. He was never the only character to have such abilities because Dende could do it so naturally you assumed it was an ability he just had.

Then they just suddenly threw at us this idea that all Kaioshin attendants gain the ability to heal. That came out of nowhere. What we're also told is that Supreme Kai had this ability at one point but for some unexplained reason lost that ability when he became a Supreme Kai. So what? He put an earring on and now all of a sudden he can't heal people no more? That's even more plot convenience.

And as I said Trunks not knowing about this ability until the convenient time. Trunks just having enough power to conveniently heal Goku to full strength before being tired and again being unable to fight.

It was all just lousy convenience and was not done well at all nor it was that interesting. The Spirit Bomb came out of nowhere too but yeah that was an exciting and memorable moment.

It's sort of like that whole Potara Fusion only lasting one hour debacle where people kept complaining about that endlessly except that actually was alluded to because they never really knew why exactly they defused.

bruh. one used and expanded on current lore and the other one was "well, it looks cool." You even highlight this in your own argument.

One moved the plot forward a bit (conveniently? sure.) while the other one was an arc ending climax.

all i'm hearing from you is that you didn't get enough trunks fan service in the manga so you're going to argue an objective point to justify your rage. hey man, i wanted more trunks in the manga too. but if we're talking about nonsensical ass pulls you have to really step away from your bias here and look at this with a clear head.

[Bullza]

bruh. one used and expanded on current lore and the other one was "well, it looks cool." You even highlight this in your own argument.

One moved the plot forward a bit (conveniently? sure.) while the other one was an arc ending climax.

all i'm hearing from you is that you didn't get enough trunks fan service in the manga so you're going to argue an objective point to justify your rage. hey man, i wanted more trunks in the manga too. but if we're talking about nonsensical ass pulls you have to really step away from your bias here and look at this with a clear head.

There is no bias, why is it that when ever anyone argues towards one point against the other it's a bias thing on here?

It didn't expand on the lore, like Dende, Kibito just so happened to be able to use healing powers. Then in a very quick revelation, it turns out all Kaioshin attendants gain the ability to heal (but not the ability to teleport) but bizarrely lose the ability when they put on a certain earring and so that's why Trunks could heal people now even though nobody told him.

That in itself has nothing to do with Trunks impact on the saga, it was just a lousy plot device in general that just so happens to continue to propel other characters forward.

That it was a nonsensical ass pull makes it no different that the nonsensical ass pulls in the anime, that was the point, hence the thread. Not whatever you're rambling about with fan service.

[dbs fanboy]

(they could have stated Zamasu lost A LOT of energy)

I think that was the case, Kaioshin stated that Zamasu was falling apart and after getting bulky, Vegetto stated that he was slower and couldn't keep up with him and after that Zamasu was hit with a final Kamehameha.

I think the problem is the fact that Trunks suddenly was able to be powered up by everyone and not that he could deliver such a strong move.

[Marlowe89]

Except Trunks does not do the Genkidama.

Except it's flat-out called the Genki-Dama (元気玉) Sword in official concept art.

I hesitate to call it an "asspull" because there have been plenty of situations where characters learned something entirely on their own through sheer combat ingenuity (or maybe Trunks was just informed about it at some point in his lifetime) but it was definitely a variation of the real Genki-Dama.

[Akyon]

DB never relied on the cheesy "Power of friendship conquers all" moment that other Shounen uses, and this now ruined that forever.

How is the Spirit Bomb Goku uses to defeat Kid Buu any less "friendship conquers all" than Trunks doing the same thing?

What about that time all the saiyans stood in a friendship circle holding hands to give Goku a power up in the Beerus arc?

[Jinzoningen MULE]

DB never relied on the cheesy "Power of friendship conquers all" moment that other Shounen uses, and this now ruined that forever.

How is the Spirit Bomb Goku uses to defeat Kid Buu any less "friendship conquers all" than Trunks doing the same thing?

What about that time all the saiyans stood in a friendship circle holding hands to give Goku a power up in the Beerus arc?

The Genki Dama has internally consistent principles that make it work, and moreover, has nothing to do with "friendship conquers all" in the slightest. You really can't even ask why it isn't in the same category, because there's nothing that it is.

I think everyone would agree about the SSG transformation, it's pretty dumb.

[Akyon]

DB never relied on the cheesy "Power of friendship conquers all" moment that other Shounen uses, and this now ruined that forever.

How is the Spirit Bomb Goku uses to defeat Kid Buu any less "friendship conquers all" than Trunks doing the same thing?

What about that time all the saiyans stood in a friendship circle holding hands to give Goku a power up in the Beerus arc?

The Genki Dama has internally consistent principles that make it work, and moreover, has nothing to do with "friendship conquers all" in the slightest. You really can't even ask why it isn't in the same category, because there's nothing that it is.

I mean it IS literally a move that required people to volunteer a little bit of their energy up to work. By our powers combined, etc. That's pretty 'power of friendship' in my books, especially since Mr. Satan's relationship with the people of Earth is the only reason it worked in the first place. Had Mr. Satan not been such an endearing individual to the people of Earth, it wouldn't have been enough to beat Kid Buu at all.

Semantics aside; is this the first time in canon we've seen people involuntarily using their energy to power another up? Genuine question. I can think of a few Toei movies where energy has been transferred to power someone up, but can't think of canon examples.