Goku needs to step up his game

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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emperior
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Goku needs to step up his game

Post by emperior » Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:45 pm

Goku, our beloved main character, has been losing too many of battles in Super. He still hasn't beaten a main villain/rival in 100 episodes of Super.
Now many people expect him to lose once again (to Jiren) so I ask you, should Goku win the tournament this time?

I personally want Goku to win this. I don't want to see a tie or some bullshit like Freezer catching Goku off-guard again to ring him out.
Just give me a hard, awesome battle between Goku and Jiren similar to that between Goku and Piccolo at the 23rd Budokai Tenkaichi.
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Re: Goku needs to step up his game

Post by precita » Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:48 pm

Goku lost every fight he was in during DBZ too except a few:

Radditz: He basically lost and sacrificed himself to stop Radditz

Vegeta: He lost. Gohan, Krillin and Yajirobe defeat Vegeta

Captain Ginyu: He loses when he gets his body stolen

Freeza: His one win in the entire first half of the show

Android 19: He loses because of the heart virus

Cell: He stops fighting because he realizes he can't win

Cell Jr's: Gets his ass kicked

Yakon: His one other win since Freeza

Majin Vegeta: He loses, or rather Vegeta takes him out by surprise

Kid Buu: He wins, but only because of the Spirit Bomb and help from everyone else


So for the entire span of DBZ, Goku wins....twice? His only wins are against Freeza and Yakon. Maybe Kid Buu if you count it. So how is this any different than DBZ?

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Re: Goku needs to step up his game

Post by emperior » Wed Jul 19, 2017 3:30 pm

precita wrote:Goku lost every fight he was in during DBZ too except a few:

Radditz: He basically lost and sacrificed himself to stop Radditz

Vegeta: He lost. Gohan, Krillin and Yajirobe defeat Vegeta

Captain Ginyu: He loses when he gets his body stolen

Freeza: His one win in the entire first half of the show

Android 19: He loses because of the heart virus

Cell: He stops fighting because he realizes he can't win

Cell Jr's: Gets his ass kicked

Yakon: His one other win since Freeza

Majin Vegeta: He loses, or rather Vegeta takes him out by surprise

Kid Buu: He wins, but only because of the Spirit Bomb and help from everyone else


So for the entire span of DBZ, Goku wins....twice? His only wins are against Freeza and Yakon. Maybe Kid Buu if you count it. So how is this any different than DBZ?
I also wanted to mention how much Goku lost in DBZ but I mainly wanted to talk about Super.
So the odds Goku loses are very high. That's why I hope Goku finally starts to win a few main battles in a row so as to subvert expectations. Because if Goku beats Jiren, then everyone will expect him to lose next.
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Re: Goku needs to step up his game

Post by SansrivaaL » Wed Jul 19, 2017 4:08 pm

For me no he doesnt necessary needs a win on his card to be awesome/badass, his character for some reason was built in a way that even when he loses it feels like he's won.
Especially in this arc, he doesnt need a clean final win and be the last man standing, rather he needs to be the MVP to get a wish, give that last man standing to Jiren,Freeza,Gohan,Vegeta or hell even Roshi or Tien, just give Goku the fucking "MVP" best fighter of the universe, he technically started this whole tournament so in a way its his responsibility, tho Vados and the slim kai already said its thanks to Goku that a universe gets to survive, I want him to leave no doubts to anyone with what he started made him look like an antagonist to some (honestly I wouldnt mind anti hero/blood knight Goku, but what he's done this arc rubs some people the wrong way)

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Re: Goku needs to step up his game

Post by Akyon » Wed Jul 19, 2017 4:35 pm

precita wrote:Goku lost every fight he was in during DBZ too except a few:

Radditz: He basically lost and sacrificed himself to stop Radditz

Vegeta: He lost. Gohan, Krillin and Yajirobe defeat Vegeta

Captain Ginyu: He loses when he gets his body stolen

Freeza: His one win in the entire first half of the show

Android 19: He loses because of the heart virus

Cell: He stops fighting because he realizes he can't win

Cell Jr's: Gets his ass kicked

Yakon: His one other win since Freeza

Majin Vegeta: He loses, or rather Vegeta takes him out by surprise

Kid Buu: He wins, but only because of the Spirit Bomb and help from everyone else


So for the entire span of DBZ, Goku wins....twice? His only wins are against Freeza and Yakon. Maybe Kid Buu if you count it. So how is this any different than DBZ?
Goku beat Nappa who was responsible for everyone's deaths in the Saiyan saga. Does that not count?

He also beat Recoome in one punch who was man handling Vegeta, Krillin and Gohan solo, as well as Burter and I'm not even sure if I'd count Ginyu as a loss since it was his quick thinking that ended getting Ginyu to be a frog until Super. Technical win?

Not sure what Fat Buu counts as. A draw?

Goku in Super has beaten Bergamo and Botamo, he technically gets the win on Golden Frieza too since he kills him. He's also responsible for defeating half Universe 9. If we count the filler he beat Copy Vegeta.

Goku defeating Jiren still feels likes a foregone conclusion tbh. I'll still be more shocked if he loses than if he wins.
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Re: Goku needs to step up his game

Post by Lord Beerus » Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:16 pm

It's never really been a big issue for me as to how many wins Goku notches under his belt. I personally get more enjoyment of the spectacle of the battles that Goku partakes in and not really whether he wins them or not.

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Re: Goku needs to step up his game

Post by Yedis » Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:34 pm

Canon wise,

Goku hasn't beaten anyone stronger than Namek saga Frieza using his own power?

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Re: Goku needs to step up his game

Post by GodKaio-Ken » Wed Jul 19, 2017 6:48 pm

His power or not he beat Kid Buu. That means in 2/3 major Arcs he succeeded. 2 > 0

I dont see Buu as similar to ROF either.


Id love to see Goku win.
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Re: Goku needs to step up his game

Post by Akyon » Wed Jul 19, 2017 6:54 pm

Yedis wrote:Canon wise,

Goku hasn't beaten anyone stronger than Namek saga Frieza using his own power?
What counts as canon within Super incidentally?

If the anime; Surely Bergamo counts? His ability pushes him to match Goku's many forms, all of which should be many times stronger than Namek arc Frieza.

Alternatively he defeats Zamasu in a duel in both the anime and the manga, whom is considered a genius amongst Kaioshins. Shin is said to be able to fell Namek Frieza in a single blow, and he's far below Zamasu's power.
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Re: Goku needs to step up his game

Post by Lord Frieza » Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:12 pm

He beats people who are weaker then him from the get go unless something gets in the way. Yakon, Botamo, Zamasu and half of Team U9. But when it comes down to the big threats Goku's ending up in worse and worse situations.

As I've said before, in general...

In the DB era Goku was always stronger then the main threat and lose/started losing due to cheating or bad luck.

In the Z era Goku is faced with foes stronger them himself, forcing him to rely tactic, planning and teamwork to beat them. This is also when the power up ping-pong games started were everyone was outdoing each-other with transformations and fusion.

The Super ear......Its pure luck that Goku and Co are not dead already. Not only are the threats stronger but more often then not they are horrifically stronger, have hax abilities that put the heroes to shame or funniest of all use their own tactic against them. Beerus completely outclasses everything when he shows up SS dont work, the old fusion trick would not work and even SSG dose not cut it, they only survive because deep down Beerus is not a total dick. Frieza dose the very thing Goku has always done, he trains and because he's a true monster with tons of untapped potential he makes gains in power that put Goku to shame. Hit can improve in seconds were it would take Goku hours, days or even months and to top it off Goku's SSBKKx10 is not enough to beat him, worse we find out that Hit true abilities are being held back by the rules. Zamasu turns everything the heroes have relied upon in the past against them, abusing Time Travel, the Dragon Balls, Zenkai, New Transformations, Goku's Power and Fusion. It gets so bad that it takes Zen-Oh destroy a universe to finally stop him.

Basically Goku has needed a god or someone elses good will to bail him out in Super. His protects against Jiren look grim.

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Re: Goku needs to step up his game

Post by Jigurashi » Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:36 pm

Yedis wrote:Canon wise,

Goku hasn't beaten anyone stronger than Namek saga Frieza using his own power?
He beat Mirai Trunks and Bergamo both with his own power. Unless you're talking about main antagonists.

It wouldn't really bother me whether Goku wins or loses here. Though, I would prefer if he won in this saga. Won't lose sleep if he didn't. Wasn't there like a post from Toyo sometime back saying that Goku wouldn't win this tournament? Didn't he say something like that?
Lord Frieza wrote:He beats people who are weaker then him from the get go unless something gets in the way. Yakon, Botamo, Zamasu and half of Team U9. But when it comes down to the big threats Goku's ending up in worse and worse situations.

As I've said before, in general...

In the DB era Goku was always stronger then the main threat and lose/started losing due to cheating or bad luck.

In the Z era Goku is faced with foes stronger them himself, forcing him to rely tactic, planning and teamwork to beat them. This is also when the power up ping-pong games started were everyone was outdoing each-other with transformations and fusion.

The Super ear......Its pure luck that Goku and Co are not dead already. Not only are the threats stronger but more often then not they are horrifically stronger, have hax abilities that put the heroes to shame or funniest of all use their own tactic against them. Beerus completely outclasses everything when he shows up SS dont work, the old fusion trick would not work and even SSG dose not cut it, they only survive because deep down Beerus is not a total dick. Frieza dose the very thing Goku has always done, he trains and because he's a true monster with tons of untapped potential he makes gains in power that put Goku to shame. Hit can improve in seconds were it would take Goku hours, days or even months and to top it off Goku's SSBKKx10 is not enough to beat him, worse we find out that Hit true abilities are being held back by the rules. Zamasu turns everything the heroes have relied upon in the past against them, abusing Time Travel, the Dragon Balls, Zenkai, New Transformations, Goku's Power and Fusion. It gets so bad that it takes Zen-Oh destroy a universe to finally stop him.

Basically Goku has needed a god or someone elses good will to bail him out in Super. His protects against Jiren look grim.
Yeah, U7 hasn't had a clean win on a major antagonist since Boo. If Goku really is getting a new form/ascending to a new level, I'd love to see him pull out the win (in the fight), doesn't mean he has to win the tournament though.

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Re: Goku needs to step up his game

Post by HybridSaiyan » Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:08 pm

He needs to step up his fighting game, yeah.
There's a difference in his martial arts, hand to hand combat, strategizing and tactics.

Maybe It's just Toei who've forgotten his fighting style. So far It's just been too repetitive.

I've not seen him do his trademark hands on the ground, booting his opponent upwards into the air yet or giving a serious injury.


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Re: Goku needs to step up his game

Post by Jigurashi » Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:57 pm

HybridSaiyan wrote:He needs to step up his fighting game, yeah.
There's a difference in his martial arts, hand to hand combat, strategizing and tactics.

Maybe It's just Toei who've forgotten his fighting style. So far It's just been too repetitive.

I've not seen him do his trademark hands on the ground, booting his opponent upwards into the air yet or giving a serious injury.


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I feel like we saw Goku like things in his fights with Gohan, Toppo, and Hitto. Hell, that pirouette we saw him use on Basil was very Goku like too. I agree we need to see more of the Goku like things he does in a fight more often, but I feel we do see it.

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