Caulifla - Why her power ups are bad, but not as bad as you might think

[Bebi Hatchiyack]

I think they just need to mention in canon that Universe 6 Saiyans are just born extremely strong from the getgo. It's why Cabba was a match for base Vegeta at the U6 tournament. It's just that none of them ever knew about the legend of Super Saiyan.

There is no other logical explanation. U7 Saiyans were born extremely weak for whatever reason.

For the U7 Saiyans there is an explanation behind that and I have a theory on why they are "WEAKER" than U6 Saiyan.

I think this is all related to the history of the Super Saiyan vs Super Saiyan God, I think there is was a time in planet Sadala (U7) that Saiyan like their U6 counterpart thrived but one day a Saiyan ran out of control becoming the Super Saiyan, for battle it Saiyan gathered together and summoned the Super Saiyan God, a battle occur between the two and the planet got destroy living for the survivor just sorrow grief and perharps hatred, then those Saiyan landed on planet Plant inhabbited already by Plantian and Tsuful.

The rest is history they were forced to live in remote place their grieves towards Tsufurian grew, they decided to strike back wipping out perharps both Plantian and Tsufurian. Later they meet Frieza and his armies etc etc. Universe 7 Saiyan weren't weak but their history and their fate was made out of ordeal and hardness. Ultimately they were doomed by Frieza and their numbers became scarce.

If Frieza hadn't wipeout the Saiyan from U7 existence perharps they would have been as powerful as U6 perharps ?

Now since I say that about the tingling in the back that's not so dumb for me, I mean in a rationnal way the Back can potentialy be the place where the Ki is stored in the body, explaining that makes me kind of happy it's like the Midiclorians for Star Wars. Also Dragon Ball being a japanese show where we have Naruto and the Chakra, Hunter x Hunter with the Nen and Bleach with the Reitsu that's kind of makes sense, Japanese takes inspiration from Buddhism, Shintoism and Taoism.

speaking of which and since I saw MasakoX video about the Ki and Chakra it makes more sense now, hence the introduction of the God Ki, I wouldn't be surprise if we are introduce more type of Ki in the future. I Imagine well the body of your average Saiyan where the Back are filled with organic pocket where Ki is stored and in use those pocket deliver the Ki through certain type of ki canal. The tingle in the back kind of please the scientist within me who kinda likes Rationalized world.

[Asura]

If some of these new Saiyans end up getting SS3 then that'll be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

At this point, might as well. Plus it'll be funny since going SSJ3 in this tournament is basically a death sentence with the stamina drain. I'll be disappointed if Cabba doesn't at least unlock SSJ2. I feel like he deserves a bone thrown at him.

[Ki Breaker]

I feel like he deserves a bone thrown at him.

Why?

[TheZFighter]

Her powers-ups are no more or less "bullshit" than anything else that goes on in this fictional world.

[Avok]

I'll be disappointed if Cabba doesn't at least unlock SSJ2. I feel like he deserves a bone thrown at him.

I'll be disappointed if he does.

[Asura]

I feel like he deserves a bone thrown at him.

Why?

Because he has almost no character. There's nothing interesting about him, and he doesn't have much of a personality. At the very least a new transformation might be interesting for him and if Caulifla can do it I'm sure he could figure it out too.

I'll be disappointed if Cabba doesn't at least unlock SSJ2. I feel like he deserves a bone thrown at him.

I'll be disappointed if he does.

Even if the circumstances are right? What if it's something achieved out of desperation/anger instead of the tingly back shit that Caulifla and Kale have so much ease getting new transformations with?

[Lionel]

Caulifla, Kale and Cabba were all superior in power to their universe's creation deity before they ever transformed. It makes Tao surpassing the earthly god, Karin, through some nondescript black market cybernetics upgrading look tame by comparison. What would have been the stimuli for all of these characters rivaling the likes of Goku and Vegeta after being trained by Whis (barring SSJG and SSJB, of course)? So much had to be endured beforehand throughout the years before our Saiyan pair were elevated to the point where they are at now. Contrary to Universe 7, U6 appears to be relatively safe and stable. What's the worst menace they could have come across -- whatever hired armies Frost sent to play the facade so he could act as a planetary broker?

Prodigy or not, inflation of power levels was doubtlessly the cause behind these characters posing any kind of challenge.

[Asura]

Caulifla, Kale and Cabba were all superior in power to their universe's creation deity before they ever transformed. It makes Tao surpassing the earthly god, Karin, through some nondescript black market cybernetics upgrading look tame by comparison. What would have been the stimuli for all of these characters rivaling the likes of Goku and Vegeta after being trained by Whis (barring SSJG and SSJB, of course)? So much had to be endured beforehand throughout the years before our Saiyan pair were elevated to the point where they are at now. Contrary to Universe 7, U6 appears to be relatively safe and stable. What's the worst menace they could have come across -- whatever hired armies Frost sent to play the facade so he could act as a planetary broker?

Prodigy or not, inflation of power levels was doubtlessly the cause behind these characters posing any kind of challenge.

I think you missed the entire point of my post. Or didn't read it. That's okay. Either way the point of my post was to bring up the fact that Caulifla is NOT rivaling the likes of Goku or Vegeta. I made this thread to point out the fact that if nothing else, Caulifla is at least written well in how her power scaling is handled. She's nowhere even near Goku or Vegeta's level, and that's a very good thing. Kale on the other hand... well everything you wrote is absolutely correct when applied to her.

[Lionel]

I did read it. If Cabba is able to trade fists with Vegeta in the U6 tournament then the implication I'm receiving is that he, and by extension Caulilfa and Kale, are within range of Goku and Vegeta, barring things such as god transformations or SSJ3. It's not just an interpretative rationalisation, limit the Saiyan duo to their base state and initial transformation and how likely do you feel it is for the U6 Saiyans to be comparable with them? They could still be moderately weaker while retaining a not so distant pace with them.

[pacz360]

I feel like he deserves a bone thrown at him.

Why?

Cause he's weaker than both his saiyans companions despite accomplishing ssj first it will be nice to see the dude get something especially if he wants to impress his master

[Asura]

I did read it. If Cabba is able to trade fists with Vegeta in the U6 tournament then the implication I'm receiving is that he, and by extension Caulilfa and Kale, are within range of Goku and Vegeta, barring things such as god transformations or SSJ3. It's not just an interpretative rationalisation, limit the Saiyan duo to their base state and initial transformation and how likely do you feel it is for the U6 Saiyans to be comparable with them? They could still be moderately weaker while retaining a not so distant pace with them.

As we've seen, Cabba SSJ barely measured up to Vegeta SSJ and Caulifla SSJ2 barely measured up to Goku SSJ2.

They're weaker than them and they can't keep up with them. The only one who can is Kale and that's bullshit that can't be explained. Unless you think even at their current level they're too strong, in which case I ask how weak do you want them to be? They're the big hyped up protagonists from U6, and I'm not just talking about them like they're Narirama's or something, U6 and U7 are both basically the protagonist universes at this point. They shouldn't be as weak as a Tien or a Krillin. They need to be strong, but not that strong, and so far that's been captured pretty good with the exception of Kale.

[Basako]

I'm fine with them. It's obviously a bit rushed, but what would be the fun in having them in base? I would totally like Cabba getting SS2 and Caulifla SS3 during the tounament. I see more problems for the god forms, not sure how they work yet.

[Lionel]

I did read it. If Cabba is able to trade fists with Vegeta in the U6 tournament then the implication I'm receiving is that he, and by extension Caulilfa and Kale, are within range of Goku and Vegeta, barring things such as god transformations or SSJ3. It's not just an interpretative rationalisation, limit the Saiyan duo to their base state and initial transformation and how likely do you feel it is for the U6 Saiyans to be comparable with them? They could still be moderately weaker while retaining a not so distant pace with them.

As we've seen, Cabba SSJ barely measured up to Vegeta SSJ and Caulifla SSJ2 barely measured up to Goku SSJ2.

They're weaker than them and they can't keep up with them. The only one who can is Kale and that's bullshit that can't be explained. Unless you think even at their current level they're too strong, in which case I ask how weak do you want them to be? They're the big hyped up protagonists from U6, and I'm not just talking about them like they're Narirama's or something, U6 and U7 are both basically the protagonist universes at this point. They shouldn't be as weak as a Tien or a Krillin. They need to be strong, but not that strong, and so far that's been captured pretty good with the exception of Kale.

"Barely" is still a more impressive demonstration of their power than being utterly helpless. It's what constitutes the difference between Vegeta feeling confident enough to challenge Freeza in his first form on Namek and quivering in terror some distance away when faced with the tyrant's second form.

Tenshihan and Krillin shouldn't be abased at all as some measuring stick of feeble power in the first place. I could think of several different logical tactics to elevate them to the same grade as the Saiyans -- the only problem lies in the studio and Toyotaro's willingness to give them a hand up. I can't argue the same for Caulifa and Cabba. They live in a well-to-do universe with no major threats prompting them to increase in strength so much. Evolution isn't enough justification for their being tens of billions more powerful than the Universe 7 Saiyans right out of the starting gate. Perhaps if Universe 6 was established as having fighters who are many, many times more powerful than the Universe 7 characters with a lot more internal threats, I could almost believe it, then. However, we know little about Caulifla and Cabba's routines except for the Saiyans in their universe being intergalactic heroes who fight nondescript enemies.

[Asura]

I did read it. If Cabba is able to trade fists with Vegeta in the U6 tournament then the implication I'm receiving is that he, and by extension Caulilfa and Kale, are within range of Goku and Vegeta, barring things such as god transformations or SSJ3. It's not just an interpretative rationalisation, limit the Saiyan duo to their base state and initial transformation and how likely do you feel it is for the U6 Saiyans to be comparable with them? They could still be moderately weaker while retaining a not so distant pace with them.

As we've seen, Cabba SSJ barely measured up to Vegeta SSJ and Caulifla SSJ2 barely measured up to Goku SSJ2.

They're weaker than them and they can't keep up with them. The only one who can is Kale and that's bullshit that can't be explained. Unless you think even at their current level they're too strong, in which case I ask how weak do you want them to be? They're the big hyped up protagonists from U6, and I'm not just talking about them like they're Narirama's or something, U6 and U7 are both basically the protagonist universes at this point. They shouldn't be as weak as a Tien or a Krillin. They need to be strong, but not that strong, and so far that's been captured pretty good with the exception of Kale.

"Barely" is still a more impressive demonstration of their power than being utterly helpless. It's what constitutes the difference between Vegeta feeling confident enough to challenge Freeza in his first form on Namek and quivering in terror some distance away when faced with the tyrant's second form.

Tenshihan and Krillin shouldn't be abased at all as some measuring stick of feeble power in the first place. I could think of several different logical tactics to elevate them to the same grade as the Saiyans -- the only problem lies in the studio and Toyotaro's willingness to give them a hand up. I can't argue the same for Caulifa and Cabba. They live in a well-to-do universe with no major threats prompting them to increase in strength so much. Evolution isn't enough justification for their being tens of billions more powerful than the Universe 7 Saiyans right out of the starting gate. Perhaps if Universe 6 was established as having fighters who are many, many times more powerful than the Universe 7 characters with a lot more internal threats, I could almost believe it, then. However, we know little about Caulifla and Cabba's routines except for the Saiyans in their universe being intergalactic heroes who fight nondescript enemies.

So then are you saying you want them to be utterly helpless? To be extremely weak and meek? What's the point of that? Caulifla and Cabba aren't just side characters. They're from a different universe, but they're as much protagonists as Goku and Vegeta are right now. Same goes for Hit. U7 is technically "our universe" with all the characters we grew up with and know, but U6 is still very much a universe to root for with likeable characters that are also connected to the U7 characters. U6 and U7 are our protagonist universes.

So with that out of the way, if members of U6 like Hit, Cabba, Kale, and Caulifla are also our protagonists, then why should they be made completely useless and weak? Why would you want Caulifla and Cabba, arguably the Goku and Vegeta of Universe 6, to be weak? They're protagonists, they can't be weak. But their power should still be kept in check within reason and aside from Kale they pretty much are. They're strong, but most of U7 is probably stronger than them (with the exception of Hit and Kale) and I don't see a problem with that.

They're protagonists and they need to be some degree of powerful. Making them weaker than most of U7 but strong in their own right is the perfect route.

[Lionel]

As we've seen, Cabba SSJ barely measured up to Vegeta SSJ and Caulifla SSJ2 barely measured up to Goku SSJ2.

They're weaker than them and they can't keep up with them. The only one who can is Kale and that's bullshit that can't be explained. Unless you think even at their current level they're too strong, in which case I ask how weak do you want them to be? They're the big hyped up protagonists from U6, and I'm not just talking about them like they're Narirama's or something, U6 and U7 are both basically the protagonist universes at this point. They shouldn't be as weak as a Tien or a Krillin. They need to be strong, but not that strong, and so far that's been captured pretty good with the exception of Kale.

"Barely" is still a more impressive demonstration of their power than being utterly helpless. It's what constitutes the difference between Vegeta feeling confident enough to challenge Freeza in his first form on Namek and quivering in terror some distance away when faced with the tyrant's second form.

Tenshihan and Krillin shouldn't be abased at all as some measuring stick of feeble power in the first place. I could think of several different logical tactics to elevate them to the same grade as the Saiyans -- the only problem lies in the studio and Toyotaro's willingness to give them a hand up. I can't argue the same for Caulifa and Cabba. They live in a well-to-do universe with no major threats prompting them to increase in strength so much. Evolution isn't enough justification for their being tens of billions more powerful than the Universe 7 Saiyans right out of the starting gate. Perhaps if Universe 6 was established as having fighters who are many, many times more powerful than the Universe 7 characters with a lot more internal threats, I could almost believe it, then. However, we know little about Caulifla and Cabba's routines except for the Saiyans in their universe being intergalactic heroes who fight nondescript enemies.

So then are you saying you want them to be utterly helpless? To be extremely weak and meek? What's the point of that? Caulifla and Cabba aren't just side characters. They're from a different universe, but they're as much protagonists as Goku and Vegeta are right now. Same goes for Hit. U7 is technically "our universe" with all the characters we grew up with and know, but U6 is still very much a universe to root for with likeable characters that are also connected to the U7 characters. U6 and U7 are our protagonist universes.

So with that out of the way, if members of U6 like Hit, Cabba, Kale, and Caulifla are also our protagonists, then why should they be made completely useless and weak? Why would you want Caulifla and Cabba, arguably the Goku and Vegeta of Universe 6, to be weak? They're protagonists, they can't be weak. But their power should still be kept in check within reason and aside from Kale they pretty much are. They're strong, but most of U7 is probably stronger than them (with the exception of Hit and Kale) and I don't see a problem with that.

They're protagonists and they need to be some degree of powerful. Making them weaker than most of U7 but strong in their own right is the perfect route.

It's not as though their power will be integral to the ultimate winner of the tournament. In theory, they could still eliminate the vast majority of the competition without power inflation elevating them to impossible heights. I'm perfectly willing to support Cabba maintaining his ground for as long as possible without ballooning him up to Goku and Vegeta's level. In Hit's situation, he could be made perfectly viable as a contestant if the studio actually knew how to apply the "genius" element of his character in a substantive way that doesn't entail being super powerful. Put those fabled "martial arts skills" to use.

[Asura]

It's not as though their power will be integral to the ultimate winner of the tournament. In theory, they could still eliminate the vast majority of the competition without power inflation elevating them to impossible heights. I'm perfectly willing to support Cabba maintaining his ground for as long as possible without ballooning him up to Goku and Vegeta's level.

Okay so if you're saying this then what's the problem exactly? Cabba hasn't been ballooned up to Goku or Vegeta's level and neither has Caulifla. None of them have been elevated to impossible heights. That's exactly what I'm trying to say. That the way they are now is good. They aren't on Goku or Vegeta's level, and their power won't factor in at the end of the tournament. So aren't we in agreement?

In Hit's situation, he could be made perfectly viable as a contestant if the studio actually knew how to apply the "genius" element of his character in a substantive way that doesn't entail being super powerful. Put those fabled "martial arts skills" to use.

What's wrong with how Hit has been portrayed thus far? I think he's been portrayed REALLY good in the tournament. His "genius" element is in full effect. He's sticking by his teammates and using his abilities in a defensive way to support them. We saw him staying near Botamo, and then recently staying near (and saving) Caulifla and then Kale, as well as being smart and bailing with Caulifla and Kale when they had the chance instead of staying there and fighting, despite him probably wanting to fight Goku. His leadership and defensive strategies don't show off a "super powerful" side to him, but instead they show a very smart, tactical side to him. He hasn't been on the offense too much.

[Lionel]

The problem lies in Cabba and Caulifla being spoken in the same breath as the U7 Saiyan duo at all. Why else would they be classified as fighters on the upper echelons of this tournament if inflation of their respective powers wasn't in effect? There is no foundation to it. What we should be witnessing is their dimensions being wholly separate from one another, not Goku and Vegeta finding partakable challenges through which to enjoy themselves. No amount of compromising their position with monikers like "prodigy" or being "evolved" should justify the astronomical disparity in power between commonplace U7 Saiyans and the U6 variety.

I'm speaking in terms of efforts to eliminate or compete with powerful foes, which happens to be the crux of this discussion; finding alternative means for gaining significance besides just having the heaviest hitting punch. Your argument stemmed from the implication that Universe 6 would be haplessly ineffective without having inexplicably large amounts of power that see their characters hovering around the same spectrum as U7's characters. I'm challenging this argument with the proposal of Hit using what he knows about technical martial arts to compensate for the power disparity.

[TheMikado]

The problem lies in Cabba and Caulifla being spoken in the same breath as the U7 Saiyan duo at all. Why else would they be classified as fighters on the upper echelons of this tournament if inflation of their respective powers wasn't in effect? There is no foundation to it. What we should be witnessing is their dimensions being wholly separate from one another, not Goku and Vegeta finding partakable challenges through which to enjoy themselves. No amount of compromising their position with monikers like "prodigy" or being "evolved" should justify the astronomical disparity in power between commonplace U7 Saiyans and the U6 variety.

I'm speaking in terms of efforts to eliminate or compete with powerful foes, which happens to be the crux of this discussion; finding alternative means for gaining significance besides just having the heaviest hitting punch. Your argument stemmed from the implication that Universe 6 would be haplessly ineffective without having inexplicably large amounts of power that see their characters hovering around the same spectrum as U7's characters. I'm challenging this argument with the proposal of Hit using what he knows about technical martial arts to compensate for the power disparity.

I'd take it a step further. We know exactly why Goku is special, and originally he was ANYTHING but special. He was literally the most common place, low class saiyan. No special circumstances surround his birth, nothing. The circumstances surrounding the Goku's rise in power were what was wholely exceptional. There's even multiple manga which do what if scenarios placing Vegeta or even Yamcha in Goku's place. The problem is Cabba and Caulifa do not seem to be that much more special then any other garden variety saiyan, let alone Kale. Yet someone these three are the only in U6 history to ever achieve the SSJ form ever, even by accident. But there is nothing special about them other than literally being told they are special, or in Kale's case, not being told anything at all. Its is bad because its like taking some random person on the street and saying they are a fighting genius and they are suddenly going toe to toe with the heavyweight champion of the world. ANYONE would have a few questions for that person. There's nothing special about this saiyans for them to have achieved this form other than being told they are so special that they can.

Goku on the other hand has shown that he unto himself is really not that special and that others can follow in his footsteps and achieve and surpass him. (Except if your name is Vegeta)

[RedHeat]

The problem lies in Cabba and Caulifla being spoken in the same breath as the U7 Saiyan duo at all. Why else would they be classified as fighters on the upper echelons of this tournament if inflation of their respective powers wasn't in effect? There is no foundation to it. What we should be witnessing is their dimensions being wholly separate from one another, not Goku and Vegeta finding partakable challenges through which to enjoy themselves. No amount of compromising their position with monikers like "prodigy" or being "evolved" should justify the astronomical disparity in power between commonplace U7 Saiyans and the U6 variety.

I'm speaking in terms of efforts to eliminate or compete with powerful foes, which happens to be the crux of this discussion; finding alternative means for gaining significance besides just having the heaviest hitting punch. Your argument stemmed from the implication that Universe 6 would be haplessly ineffective without having inexplicably large amounts of power that see their characters hovering around the same spectrum as U7's characters. I'm challenging this argument with the proposal of Hit using what he knows about technical martial arts to compensate for the power disparity.

I don't have much of an horse in the race, but Hit also has his ability to grow stronger to adapt to his foes. Sure he has an millennia worth of experience and technique, but that wouldn't be enough to beat Goku who could multiple his already immense power by several factors.

[Asura]

The problem lies in Cabba and Caulifla being spoken in the same breath as the U7 Saiyan duo at all. Why else would they be classified as fighters on the upper echelons of this tournament if inflation of their respective powers wasn't in effect? There is no foundation to it. What we should be witnessing is their dimensions being wholly separate from one another, not Goku and Vegeta finding partakable challenges through which to enjoy themselves. No amount of compromising their position with monikers like "prodigy" or being "evolved" should justify the astronomical disparity in power between commonplace U7 Saiyans and the U6 variety.

I'm speaking in terms of efforts to eliminate or compete with powerful foes, which happens to be the crux of this discussion; finding alternative means for gaining significance besides just having the heaviest hitting punch. Your argument stemmed from the implication that Universe 6 would be haplessly ineffective without having inexplicably large amounts of power that see their characters hovering around the same spectrum as U7's characters. I'm challenging this argument with the proposal of Hit using what he knows about technical martial arts to compensate for the power disparity.

I still don't understand what you're trying to say. No one is classifying them as fighters on the upper echelons of the tournament to begin with. No one seriously believes they're somehow going to make it to the end with the likes of Hit and Jiren. And what exactly do you want to see in regards to them? An entire arc focused on them beforehand? Does there really need to be an explicit reason as to why U6 Saiyans are stronger than "commonplace" U7 Saiyans? The universes aren't exact copies of each other, and having them on like, Nappa level wouldn't make any sense for this tournament.

My argument never had a single thing to do with U6 being ineffective without having large amounts of power with characters near the same strength as U7 ones. My argument was literally the opposite, that characters like Caulifla and Cabba are grounded with their power. They don't have large amounts of power, they aren't on the same level as most of the U7 characters.