What's up with Tenshinhan this arc?

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Re: What's up with Tenshinhan this arc?

Post by MainJPW » Sat Sep 09, 2017 10:21 pm

MaskedRider wrote:
Yes the video has been posted already, I seen it at least three times in this thread. Sorry if I sound rude but I see it going up like its the holy grail of what is wrong with Tenshinhan and while he isn't WRONG my issue is that he uses examples strictly from Super instead of Z as well. Heck, I don't know why he isn't complaining about him in Z too
He kinda did, didn't he? When he brought up Tenshinan only using one move and being swept away he was referring to Z as well, even had a screencap of Tenshinhan right before being one-shotted by disembodied Boo-legs.

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Re: What's up with Tenshinhan this arc?

Post by Timetraveller » Sun Sep 10, 2017 12:39 am

MaskedRider wrote:
DiegoBrando wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42HNvl0e26I

Not sure if this was posted already, but it's a pretty good video.
Yes the video has been posted already, I seen it at least three times in this thread. Sorry if I sound rude but I see it going up like its the holy grail of what is wrong with Tenshinhan and while he isn't WRONG my issue is that he uses examples strictly from Super instead of Z as well. Heck, I don't know why he isn't complaining about him in Z too, having to re-watch clips to refresh my memory, it seems all he knows how to do is the Tri Beam while being the guy to show how much stronger the bad guy is. I'm not saying Super should be scotch free now but I probably seen him do more in new material since Battle of Gods movie than what I remember in Z after the Saiyan saga. Actually scratch that, I would say from all that I seen and read on he in Z and Super are just about the same. I would argue Yamcha is more deserving of the "Now what the hell is going on with him?" discussion. But at least Z and Super did more with him than GT ever did.


GT:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ufoM8mNKGA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7v-hybUNUzM

At least in Z and Super he is SOMETHING than NOTHING. Although of course he could have been more, I get that he got more screen time in Z but I wish he could have had more like the new material...I mean look at how cool this is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65Zn1MPMzA4 this screams experienced martial artist
Because GT and Z tried to preserve the power scaling of Z. Tien in Z was fighting against an overwhelmingly stronger opponent and managed to buy the Z fighters some time. That to me is more impressive than fighting a few seconds against fodder level characters. Super takes liberties with power scaling and brought back Master Roshi meaning Tien could finally get the chance to do something but nope, he's even worse.

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Re: What's up with Tenshinhan this arc?

Post by HeroR » Sun Sep 10, 2017 1:29 am

Timetraveller wrote:
Because GT and Z tried to preserve the power scaling of Z. Tien in Z was fighting against an overwhelmingly stronger opponent and managed to buy the Z fighters some time. That to me is more impressive than fighting a few seconds against fodder level characters. Super takes liberties with power scaling and brought back Master Roshi meaning Tien could finally get the chance to do something but nope, he's even worse.
You do know how weird that sentence is, right? Z tried to preserve the power scaling of Z. And how did Super take liberties with power scaling when Roshi have also been fighting 'fodder'. It isn't like he has been fighting like Toppo or even people Piccolo's level.

Also, isn't GT the same show that also had base form Goku beat up someone as strong as Majin Buu and then beat up his two Super Saiyan sons and base form, and this is after a guide said Gohan didn't get weaker since the Buu Saga?
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: What's up with Tenshinhan this arc?

Post by Arugela » Sun Sep 10, 2017 2:04 am

But it's always possible they will make goku take in higher god forms into himself and make it reasonable to beat up buu. Super could be setting up GT. 8)
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Re: What's up with Tenshinhan this arc?

Post by Timetraveller » Sun Sep 10, 2017 2:25 am

HeroR wrote:
Timetraveller wrote:
Because GT and Z tried to preserve the power scaling of Z. Tien in Z was fighting against an overwhelmingly stronger opponent and managed to buy the Z fighters some time. That to me is more impressive than fighting a few seconds against fodder level characters. Super takes liberties with power scaling and brought back Master Roshi meaning Tien could finally get the chance to do something but nope, he's even worse.
You do know how weird that sentence is, right? Z tried to preserve the power scaling of Z. And how did Super take liberties with power scaling when Roshi have also been fighting 'fodder'. It isn't like he has been fighting like Toppo or even people Piccolo's level.

Also, isn't GT the same show that also had base form Goku beat up someone as strong as Majin Buu and then beat up his two Super Saiyan sons and base form, and this is after a guide said Gohan didn't get weaker since the Buu Saga?
Yeah meaning Z established power scaling early on and tried to keep it consistent all the way through. Everyone became stronger than Master Roshi and it stayed that way. So why couldn't they give Tien a proper fight instead of making him look like a fool? One where he does more than spam Tri-beams. Roshi beat Tien. You don't see that as taking liberties with power scaling?

GT's the same show. Base Goku sparred against Majin Buu before the top but got into a short tussle with Master Roshi. Maybe Goku was holding back and gauging their strength so he could enjoy the fight? Isn't that the excuse we love to use for Goku in DBS?

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Re: What's up with Tenshinhan this arc?

Post by HeroR » Sun Sep 10, 2017 7:00 am

Timetraveller wrote:
Yeah meaning Z established power scaling early on and tried to keep it consistent all the way through. Everyone became stronger than Master Roshi and it stayed that way. So why couldn't they give Tien a proper fight instead of making him look like a fool? One where he does more than spam Tri-beams. Roshi beat Tien. You don't see that as taking liberties with power scaling?

GT's the same show. Base Goku sparred against Majin Buu before the top but got into a short tussle with Master Roshi. Maybe Goku was holding back and gauging their strength so he could enjoy the fight? Isn't that the excuse we love to use for Goku in DBS?
You mean like having people who can destroy planets, but the Earth always stands intact even when people directly hits it with energy blasts?

Because Tien is a fool. He always been. Roshi beat Tien because he has a better move set and Tien underestimated him.

If you think Goku was going all out against Roshi, there isn't much I can tell you. I guess Roshi can also no sell Piccolo's attacks. In either case, Goku sparring Buu and Roshi isn't the same as base form Goku shit stomping people who shit stomped Super Saiyan Gohan and Goten, and some times even Vegeta.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: What's up with Tenshinhan this arc?

Post by JazzMazz » Sun Sep 10, 2017 7:45 am

HeroR wrote:
Timetraveller wrote:
Yeah meaning Z established power scaling early on and tried to keep it consistent all the way through. Everyone became stronger than Master Roshi and it stayed that way. So why couldn't they give Tien a proper fight instead of making him look like a fool? One where he does more than spam Tri-beams. Roshi beat Tien. You don't see that as taking liberties with power scaling?

GT's the same show. Base Goku sparred against Majin Buu before the top but got into a short tussle with Master Roshi. Maybe Goku was holding back and gauging their strength so he could enjoy the fight? Isn't that the excuse we love to use for Goku in DBS?
You mean like having people who can destroy planets, but the Earth always stands intact even when people directly hits it with energy blasts?

Because Tien is a fool. He always been. Roshi beat Tien because he has a better move set and Tien underestimated him.

If you think Goku was going all out against Roshi, there isn't much I can tell you. I guess Roshi can also no sell Piccolo's attacks. In either case, Goku sparring Buu and Roshi isn't the same as base form Goku shit stomping people who shit stomped Super Saiyan Gohan and Goten, and some times even Vegeta.
That is completely false.

The people destroying planets thing is definitely a problem, espicially in the Buu arc. In the Cell, they at least tried to justify it.

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Re: What's up with Tenshinhan this arc?

Post by HeroR » Sun Sep 10, 2017 8:00 am

JazzMazz wrote: That is completely false.

The people destroying planets thing is definitely a problem, espicially in the Buu arc. In the Cell, they at least tried to justify it.
Please tell me how my statement about Tien being a fool is false instead of making a blank statement.

The Cell Saga didn't really justified it since Cell had no problem nearly destroying the planet several times, yet no was worried about him doing it except with a Kamehameha when logic said he could have just done a simple ki blast. He could have done what Freeza did on Namek, but for some reason Cell made a big show of destroying a planet even when he was desperate.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: What's up with Tenshinhan this arc?

Post by JazzMazz » Sun Sep 10, 2017 8:14 am

HeroR wrote:
JazzMazz wrote: That is completely false.

The people destroying planets thing is definitely a problem, espicially in the Buu arc. In the Cell, they at least tried to justify it.
Please tell me how my statement about Tien being a fool is false instead of making a blank statement.

The Cell Saga didn't really justified it since Cell had no problem nearly destroying the planet several times, yet no was worried about him doing it except with a Kamehameha when logic said he could have just done a simple ki blast. He could have done what Freeza did on Namek, but for some reason Cell made a big show of destroying a planet even when he was desperate.
Tien proved himself to be an extremely capable warrior in the 22 Tenkaichi Budokai and 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai. Suggesting that his always been incapable of handling himself is completely incorrect, if he hadn't been capable as a fighter, he wouldn't have been able fight on even grounds or take the advantage against Goku.

I do agree with you about the planet thing. Though I do think they tried handling it in the Cell arc by constantly mentioning it, that didn't stop it from being non-sensical. The Buu arc did a far worse job of handling it.

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Re: What's up with Tenshinhan this arc?

Post by HeroR » Sun Sep 10, 2017 8:43 am

JazzMazz wrote: Tien proved himself to be an extremely capable warrior in the 22 Tenkaichi Budokai and 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai. Suggesting that his always been incapable of handling himself is completely incorrect, if he hadn't been capable as a fighter, he wouldn't have been able fight on even grounds or take the advantage against Goku.

I do agree with you about the planet thing. Though I do think they tried handling it in the Cell arc by constantly mentioning it, that didn't stop it from being non-sensical. The Buu arc did a far worse job of handling it.
He showed some interesting stuff during the tournament, but was basically outplayed by Goku every step of the way, especially in the manga. The anime made the fight appear closer than it was and in the manga. Tien only really became even with Goku after Chiaotzu paralyzed him. After, he always came off as mediocre and a bit of an idiot.

I think the Buu Saga did a better since Buu was too busy enjoying the planet to destroy and the only reason he didn't was because he wanted to fight. When Buu decided the planet needed to go, it went. Cell has no such excuse since he nearly destroy the planet fighting Goku and attempted to rage quit twice.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: What's up with Tenshinhan this arc?

Post by JazzMazz » Sun Sep 10, 2017 8:50 am

HeroR wrote:
JazzMazz wrote: Tien proved himself to be an extremely capable warrior in the 22 Tenkaichi Budokai and 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai. Suggesting that his always been incapable of handling himself is completely incorrect, if he hadn't been capable as a fighter, he wouldn't have been able fight on even grounds or take the advantage against Goku.

I do agree with you about the planet thing. Though I do think they tried handling it in the Cell arc by constantly mentioning it, that didn't stop it from being non-sensical. The Buu arc did a far worse job of handling it.
He showed some interesting stuff during the tournament, but was basically outplayed by Goku every step of the way, especially in the manga. The anime made the fight appear closer than it was and in the manga. Tien only really became even with Goku after Chiaotzu paralyzed him. After, he always came off as mediocre and a bit of an idiot.

I think the Buu Saga did a better since Buu was too busy enjoying the planet to destroy and the only reason he didn't was because he wanted to fight. When Buu decided the planet needed to go, it went. Cell has no such excuse since he nearly destroy the planet fighting Goku and attempted to rage quit twice.
Thats still not suggesting his making a fool of himself.

I can see your point about the Buu arc. I simply think the Cell arc more directly addresses it.

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Re: What's up with Tenshinhan this arc?

Post by HeroR » Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:10 am

JazzMazz wrote: Thats still not suggesting his making a fool of himself.

I can see your point about the Buu arc. I simply think the Cell arc more directly addresses it.
When I called him a fool, I am talking about his actions after the tournament. He gave a good first impression, but then it was downhill from there. Just using Dragon Ball, he broke the rice cooker while practicing and didn't even realized it until he went to fight King Piccolo. He also tried to fight Drum in a straight brawl. He has techniques like the Solar Flare and After Image and used none of them. During the 23rd tournament, he didn't really realized the weakness in his multiform until Goku throw his butt out of the ring and he got blinded by his own technique. For the lack of better words, Tien being a skill marital artists kind of became an informed ability after his first showing.

I can see your point on that.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: What's up with Tenshinhan this arc?

Post by JazzMazz » Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:20 am

HeroR wrote:
JazzMazz wrote: Thats still not suggesting his making a fool of himself.

I can see your point about the Buu arc. I simply think the Cell arc more directly addresses it.
When I called him a fool, I am talking about his actions after the tournament. He gave a good first impression, but then it was downhill from there. Just using Dragon Ball, he broke the rice cooker while practicing and didn't even realized it until he went to fight King Piccolo. He also tried to fight Drum in a straight brawl. He has techniques like the Solar Flare and After Image and used none of them. During the 23rd tournament, he didn't really realized the weakness in his multiform until Goku throw his butt out of the ring and he got blinded by his own technique. For the lack of better words, Tien being a skill marital artists kind of became an informed ability after his first showing.

I can see your point on that.
I'll say that Ten became less and less relevant with less attention placed upon him as time went on, but even during the 23rd Budokai, he was still using a degree of strategy, and he obviously also realized the weakness of his technique(he shat himself when Goku charged at him), he simply didn't have time to act before he got knocked out.

I got into this exchage simply to say that Ten hadn't always been a fool.(Though you could definitely make that argument for him during Super)

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Re: What's up with Tenshinhan this arc?

Post by HeroR » Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:27 am

JazzMazz wrote: I'll say that Ten became less and less relevant with less attention placed upon him as time went on, but even during the 23rd Budokai, he was still using a degree of strategy, and he obviously also realized the weakness of his technique(he shat himself when Goku charged at him), he simply didn't have time to act before he got knocked out.

I got into this exchage simply to say that Ten hadn't always been a fool.(Though you could definitely make that argument for him during Super)
Even with less relevant, fighters don't tend to become more foolish. Look at Piccolo who actually got smarter after his battle with Goku. And Tien's strategy boils down to Goku being the same speed he was three years ago. He basically admitted that. From the way Tien acted afterwards, I don't think he really knew about the weakness or knew how bad it was. Otherwise, he's also an idiot if he thought combat genius like Goku wouldn't noticed the giant flaw in the technique.

My point was that Tien has aways been a fool, or least after his first fight with Goku. It wasn't something Super invented. It's just far more noticeable since everyone else is far smarter.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: What's up with Tenshinhan this arc?

Post by JazzMazz » Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:37 am

HeroR wrote:
JazzMazz wrote: I'll say that Ten became less and less relevant with less attention placed upon him as time went on, but even during the 23rd Budokai, he was still using a degree of strategy, and he obviously also realized the weakness of his technique(he shat himself when Goku charged at him), he simply didn't have time to act before he got knocked out.

I got into this exchage simply to say that Ten hadn't always been a fool.(Though you could definitely make that argument for him during Super)
Even with less relevant, fighters don't tend to become more foolish. Look at Piccolo who actually got smarter after his battle with Goku. And Tien's strategy boils down to Goku being the same speed he was three years ago. He basically admitted that. From the way Tien acted afterwards, I don't think he really knew about the weakness or knew how bad it was. Otherwise, he's also an idiot if he thought combat genius like Goku wouldn't noticed the giant flaw in the technique.

My point was that Tien has aways been a fool, or least after his first fight with Goku. It wasn't something Super invented. It's just far more noticeable since everyone else is far smarter.
You've still not proven your point.

Making strategic errors or assumptions doesn't make someone a fool, it just shows that they have under or over estimated their opponent or made unsound judgment(by that notion you could call everyone in the series a fool).

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Re: What's up with Tenshinhan this arc?

Post by HeroR » Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:41 am

JazzMazz wrote: You've still not proven your point.

Making strategic errors or assumptions doesn't make someone a fool, it just shows that they have under or over estimated their opponent or made unsound judgment(by that notion you could everyone in the series is a fool).
I have already elaborated on how Tien was an idiot after his first battle with Goku. There isn't too may other ways I can explain it.

Making some errors sure. But makes them in every battle he has engaged in and a lot of them are major errors. And everyone in the series have been foolish or is a fool. Tien is just constantly is one and Super didn't changed anything. The reason why Tien looks like a bigger idiot than usual is because Roshi is back to where he was in Dragon Ball and not the clown he was in Z, Krillin is about where he was at during the Namek Saga despite his short fight time, and several other characters are just fighting smarter while Tien stood the same.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: What's up with Tenshinhan this arc?

Post by JazzMazz » Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:43 am

HeroR wrote:
JazzMazz wrote: You've still not proven your point.

Making strategic errors or assumptions doesn't make someone a fool, it just shows that they have under or over estimated their opponent or made unsound judgment(by that notion you could everyone in the series is a fool).
I have already elaborated on how Tien was an idiot after his first battle with Goku. There isn't too may other ways I can explain it.

Making some errors sure. But makes them in every battle he has engaged in and a lot of them are major errors. And everyone in the series have been foolish or is a fool. Tien is just constantly is one and Super didn't changed anything. The reason why Tien looks like a bigger idiot than usual is because Roshi is back to where he was in Dragon Ball and not the clown he was in Z, Krillin is about where he was at during the Namek Saga despite his short fight time, and several other characters are just fighting smarter while Tien stood the same.
In other words, everyone but Tien got a Toriyama hand-job. :lol:

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Re: What's up with Tenshinhan this arc?

Post by HeroR » Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:53 am

JazzMazz wrote:
HeroR wrote:
JazzMazz wrote: You've still not proven your point.

Making strategic errors or assumptions doesn't make someone a fool, it just shows that they have under or over estimated their opponent or made unsound judgment(by that notion you could everyone in the series is a fool).
I have already elaborated on how Tien was an idiot after his first battle with Goku. There isn't too may other ways I can explain it.

Making some errors sure. But makes them in every battle he has engaged in and a lot of them are major errors. And everyone in the series have been foolish or is a fool. Tien is just constantly is one and Super didn't changed anything. The reason why Tien looks like a bigger idiot than usual is because Roshi is back to where he was in Dragon Ball and not the clown he was in Z, Krillin is about where he was at during the Namek Saga despite his short fight time, and several other characters are just fighting smarter while Tien stood the same.
In other words, everyone but Tien got a Toriyama hand-job. :lol:
Personally when I hear "Toriyama hand-job", people usually are talking about battle power. In my case, I am talking about the character in Super are generally smarter than they were in Z or where they are when the peaked in Z. Roshi in this arc is 21st tournament Jackie Chun and Krillin is where he was at in the Namek Saga. Gohan finally gets a kick in the fighting IQ department after being a raging bull for over twenty years, Piccolo really shows his fighting smart by pointed out all of Gohan's flaws, and Freeze even gets some genre savvy, although he's apparently still an idiot of we believe the summaries for Episode 108.

Tien is Tien and comes off as really stupid when everyone else made noticeable gains in the IQ department when he hasn't. Now why didn't Tien get any of these developments, it could be a mixed of the director didn't care, the writers didn't care, most fans didn't care, and Toriyama didn't care. I guess you could say that Tien was the victim of indifferent and no one cared to smarting him up.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: What's up with Tenshinhan this arc?

Post by JazzMazz » Sun Sep 10, 2017 10:00 am

HeroR wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:
HeroR wrote:
I have already elaborated on how Tien was an idiot after his first battle with Goku. There isn't too may other ways I can explain it.

Making some errors sure. But makes them in every battle he has engaged in and a lot of them are major errors. And everyone in the series have been foolish or is a fool. Tien is just constantly is one and Super didn't changed anything. The reason why Tien looks like a bigger idiot than usual is because Roshi is back to where he was in Dragon Ball and not the clown he was in Z, Krillin is about where he was at during the Namek Saga despite his short fight time, and several other characters are just fighting smarter while Tien stood the same.
In other words, everyone but Tien got a Toriyama hand-job. :lol:
Personally when I hear "Toriyama hand-job", people usually are talking about battle power. In my case, I am talking about the character in Super are generally smarter than they were in Z or where they are when the peaked in Z. Roshi in this arc is 21st tournament Jackie Chun and Krillin is where he was at in the Namek Saga. Gohan finally gets a kick in the fighting IQ department after being a raging bull for over twenty years, Piccolo really shows his fighting smart by pointed out all of Gohan's flaws, and Freeze even gets some genre savvy, although he's apparently still an idiot of we believe the summaries for Episode 108.

Tien is Tien and comes off as really stupid when everyone else made noticeable gains in the IQ department when he hasn't. Now why didn't Tien get any of these developments, it could be a mixed of the director didn't care, the writers didn't care, most fans didn't care, and Toriyama didn't care. I guess you could say that Tien was the victim of indifferent and no one cared to smarting him up.
Tien only got significantly dumber in Z, in Dragonball, he at least attempted to make some form of coherent strategy, but by the android saga, Tien was doing nothing but pointing out how out of his league everyone is.

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Re: What's up with Tenshinhan this arc?

Post by HeroR » Sun Sep 10, 2017 10:14 am

JazzMazz wrote:
HeroR wrote:
JazzMazz wrote: In other words, everyone but Tien got a Toriyama hand-job. :lol:
Personally when I hear "Toriyama hand-job", people usually are talking about battle power. In my case, I am talking about the character in Super are generally smarter than they were in Z or where they are when the peaked in Z. Roshi in this arc is 21st tournament Jackie Chun and Krillin is where he was at in the Namek Saga. Gohan finally gets a kick in the fighting IQ department after being a raging bull for over twenty years, Piccolo really shows his fighting smart by pointed out all of Gohan's flaws, and Freeze even gets some genre savvy, although he's apparently still an idiot of we believe the summaries for Episode 108.

Tien is Tien and comes off as really stupid when everyone else made noticeable gains in the IQ department when he hasn't. Now why didn't Tien get any of these developments, it could be a mixed of the director didn't care, the writers didn't care, most fans didn't care, and Toriyama didn't care. I guess you could say that Tien was the victim of indifferent and no one cared to smarting him up.
Tien only got significantly dumber in Z, in Dragonball, he at least attempted to make some form of coherent strategy, but by the android saga, Tien was doing nothing but pointing out how out of his league everyone is.
I think we can agree on that. Z Tien does no justice to how he was in Dragon Ball, yet people point to his stall of Semi-Perfect Cell as his best moment. Best and real moment in Z, perhaps, but he had better in Dragon Ball imo.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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