What about Saiyan beyond god/2 base theory now?

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LowRyder2005
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Re: What about Saiyan beyond god/2 base theory now?

Post by LowRyder2005 » Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:35 am

Isn't sbg just a term from dbh that people use to describe Goku and be default Vegeta's base form during RoF being SSJG, but its not actually a separate form altogether. In that case why would Goku not be able to alter his power level at will in his base form then or is it something else where people pretend Goku and Vegeta can turn on and off god ki like a switch for their non-god forms?
A pamphlet from around the time ROF was released re-instates the concept that "if a Saiyan with a power of a Super Saiyan God turns Super Saiyan" the Saiyan will turn "Super Saiyan Blue", and not mere Super Saiyans anymore. The only logical implication, if you are to assume Goku can turn regular Super Saiyan, is ironically that Goku could turn his power on and off. I don't believe it's fair to use terms such as "pretending", since the theory has at least some ground in what was previously established. Arguing whether it's indirect relevancy to the current state of affairs was intended or not is another thing entirely, and I can understand the criticism in that case.
Actually, I would assume he can't
Then you should also have no issue with assuming the existence of a Saiyan Beyond God doesn't automatically break the narrative; when you reflect about it, the criticism is more or less the same. "It seems natural, it didn't happen in the story, is it broken?".
Could you actually give some examples and the context behind it that shows what you are suggesting and include Vegeta as well since he's in the same boat as Goku.
I believe every time Goku fights after he unlocks Super Saiyan and such could easily qualify. Perhaps I didn't explain myself adequately.

* Fights against Kid Buu: he admits he missed his window of opportunity because he took it too easy.
* Fights against Beerus. Starts with Super Saiyan instead of Super Saiyan 3.
* Fights against Freeza, Frost and Copy Vegeta. Starts in base instead of Blue.
* Fights against the copy villains: uses base, Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 3, instead of Blue.
* Fights against Bergamo, uses bases and Super Saiyan instead of Blue.
* Vegeta fights against Magetta, instead of turning Blue he tries to beat the opponent in Super Saiyan.

In general, Goku matches his opponent whenever possibile. It's become nothing short of his patented M.O; Super's especially making this a very pivotal thing whenever Goku fights, albeit I could agree on some point that it does constitute artificial drama.
Not that dbh has any bearing on canon, but I'm curious, do they ever explain why it boosts Goku's base over his SSJ form?
Not to my knowledge or, well, not in particular. It's just ROF's form treated like a transformation which yields a higher power-up than Super Saiyan 1/2/3; interestingly, it's slightly weaker than Super Saiyan God though.
I believe Freeza is outright stated to have gotten stronger due to his mental training in hell in conjunction with his perfect energy control skills.
I was not mentioning Freeza for any reason other than giving you a bit of food for thought. Do note that while possible this is still extrapolation, though. What's outright stated is only that Freeza had reached a serene mind through that training, which enabled him to overcome his stamina issues with the Golden form. Goku does refer to him as "stronger" after he's informed of this, but the "stronger" tidbit is most likely in reference to his additional stamina, given that it's, well, staying at 100% for as long as he wants instead of seconds is obviously gonna make him drastically "stronger", or "more powerful". While in Hell, Freeza could not move, and he had previously implied he needed to "train" like a normal person to get stronger. His "unmatched strength and perfect control" statement is in reference to the fact he can control his Golden form without issue now. It doesn't really come off as a natural conclusion to think he meant some "I can train while not moving" thing. Somewhat like the two-base affair's criticism, if you may.

And not only that. Even accepting that his meditation had some counter-intuitive effect (for the viewer) like increasing Freeza's available ki pool, which I'll stress is not what Freeza directly stated, it's also not said that this "mental training" made his native form stronger as well.
Isn't SBG just his base form at the same level or higher than SSJG and not actually a separate form? If so then why would that waste Goku's stamina. Now, if you're treating it as a separate form as in Goku is turning SSJG on and off like a switch in his base form then we need to clear up some things then.

What in the world is Goku's SSJ at the end of BoG then, Beeruz mentioned he fully merged SSJG itself into his being and made it his own when Goku questioned he hasn't gotten any weaker and is still at the same level despite losing the form itself. Since SSJ Goku = SSJG, did he lose this level considering his SSJ form from the end of BoGs and his base form from RoF are no where near that level post-RoF as shown by his base and SSJ identical in level to Gohan in his Saiyaman get up (Episode 75 I think, somewhere in the 70s since it takes place post Zamasu saga).

This same Gohan was shown stronger than the wolf brother he fought as a SSJ and his SSJ 1-2 forms are stated to be inferior in power to the level he had against Super Bui (Ultimate Gohan) during the Buu saga meaning Goku's base and SSJ 1-2 forms are also inferior to Ultimate Gohan as well. Goku and Vegeta's base are shown struggling Againdy the wolf brothers and having to turn SSJ and yet the wolf brothers are shown at time keeping pace with them so their SSJ is no stronger than Gohan's SSJ during the exhibition match which is inferior to his Ultimate form.

It appears Goku and Vegeta simply lost the level their base and SSJ forms were at during BoGs and RoF meaning Freeza has been retcon to a similar level then.
A lot of people will give you their take on what SBG is; however, the common denominator is just that the base Saiyans will be stronger than SS3 and weaker than Blue.

I think you are nevertheless completely correct in saying Goku's strength and Gohan's is portrayed as vastly different levels. You could simply see the two-base theory as some in-universe patchwork, entirely fanmade but with some root in the available material. Maybe this could help you understand at least part of the dynamic behind it, I suppose. Some people just like to rationalize things following that type of approach; others will simply not bother and say that the writer's hand mudded the waters.
In other words, I whole-heartedly agree with you when you say that a retcon certainly took place, but if I were to keep it in-universe I'd be kind of forced to say that the base form seen at some point is very different than what's shown at some other.

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Re: What about Saiyan beyond god/2 base theory now?

Post by ChiefWamsutta » Fri Aug 11, 2017 1:36 am

Lord Beerus wrote:A cool thought just came to my head.

When Vegeta turns into a SSJB in Episode 27, Goku comments that unlike himself who need the power of other Saiyans to obtain the power of Super Saiyan God, Vegeta did it on his own with his own power. That would imply Vegeta, at some point after Goku joined him to train with Whis, simply brute forced his way to becoming a Super Saiyan God. It would actually work in a thematic sense given Vegeta often brute forces his way to new levels of strength, despite the previously stated criteria need to achived that power in the first place. Like how he became a SSJ despite not have a pure heart.
The wording in the episode works beautifully with this idea. I had thought of this a while ago, and I came to the same conclusion that you did: Vegeta probably became an SSG on his own, then harnessed the power in order to achieve SSB. Goku just harnessed the power better and turned into SSBlue.
Marlowe89 wrote:I've sort of abandoned the mainstream version of the two base theory myself, i.e. that Goku has a God-powered base and a regular base that he can switch between at will. With the reintroduction of Super Saiyan God into the narrative, I just don't personally feel that there's any logical need to suppose it exists in Super's official continuity. For me, it's somewhat a matter of principle and somewhat a matter of authorial intent; if the writers didn't intend it, I'm not going to follow it.

That being said, I still believe that base Goku was obviously intended to be just as strong as Super Saiyan God at one point in the series, particularly during the RoF arc. There are countless instances and supplementary materials that confirm this to be true for the film, and there's no reason to believe the writers approached this differently for Super -- especially since Goku described Blue to be the Super Saiyan form of a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God, the underlined phrase being the key words in this situation. I'm not sure what they were going for during the U6 Tournament (perhaps they weren't entirely certain themselves seeing as the old Super Saiyan forms returned) but whatever occurred in the Copy Vegeta arc was either a continuation of that idea or an outlier altogether.

With base Goku now being portrayed to struggle with characters around Basil's level, being weaker than 18 in strength and fighting equally against a pre-Ultimate Gohan on a form-by-form basis with the dialogue implying he wasn't holding back much, I think it's all too clear that the writers are now attempting to be a lot more consistent with the manga's power scale. It's only natural that something like this would occur; there was implied to be increased communication between Toei and Toyotaro as recently as the Goku Black arc, not to mention the Dragon Ball Room initiative being announced to optimize content for the series as well as Toshio insinuating that Toei's writers normally try to adapt their perspective of power levels from the explicit views of Toriyama who also works closely with Toyotaro.

So if anything, I'm more inclined to subscribe to a version of the theory that would consist of "a super strong base, then a much weaker base overwriting the first", which seems rather consistent with the evidence presented thus far. In simpler terms, I'm pretty sure there was a quiet (but elaborate) retcon at some point.
Regarding the change of Goku and Vegeta's strong base into a weaker base, I recalled what Whis said during the Goku Black arc about gods time traveling. He said that it was forbidden for even higher-ranking gods to time travel. I had an idea that maybe time traveling affected Goku and Vegeta's power levels making them weaker. I know it sounds so random, but it could necessarily work as to why their bases are weaker than a few episodes before where Copy-Vegeta was so strong.

That or this strong base was the incomplete SSG until they properly learned to utilize it, thus resulting in SSG reappearing.

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Re: What about Saiyan beyond god/2 base theory now?

Post by lord turbo » Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:12 pm

LowRyder2005 wrote:A pamphlet from around the time ROF was released re-instates the concept that "if a Saiyan with a power of a Super Saiyan God turns Super Saiyan" the Saiyan will turn "Super Saiyan Blue", and not mere Super Saiyans anymore. The only logical implication, if you are to assume Goku can turn regular Super Saiyan, is ironically that Goku could turn his power on and off. I don't believe it's fair to use terms such as "pretending", since the theory has at least some ground in what was previously established. Arguing whether it's indirect relevancy to the current state of affairs was intended or not is another thing entirely, and I can understand the criticism in that case.
Yet in BoGs Goku was a Saiyan with the power of a SSJG while SSJ, then when he reverts to base, then back to SSJ he still does not turn SSJB so this out of universe pamphlet isn't exactly correct and such a thing is once again not hinted, implied, suggested, or even stated in the series proper itself so...
Then you should also have no issue with assuming the existence of a Saiyan Beyond God doesn't automatically break the narrative; when you reflect about it, the criticism is more or less the same. "It seems natural, it didn't happen in the story, is it broken?".
You lost me there, how does Goku's situation relate to Gohan's situation with Ultimate?
* Fights against Kid Buu: he admits he missed his window of opportunity because he took it too easy.
Did he? Did he not say he was going to go all out from the start? That's not the same as holding back.
* Fights against Beerus. Starts with Super Saiyan instead of Super Saiyan 3.
He does use SSJ3 in the movie, but I assume we are just discussing the manga/anime of Super? To be fair, Goku can't sense Beerus ki so he can't accurately gauge how strong he is so starting out as SSJ makes sense here, and even still he uses the full strength of SSJ, then SSJ2, then SSJ3, he doesn't sand bag in any of them forms (that's both manga and anime version).
* Fights against Freeza, Frost and Copy Vegeta. Starts in base instead of Blue.
Fight against Freeza makes sense since he was stronger than Freeza in his base, there was no need to go any further. Frost like Goku was hiding his real strength so Goku was forced to bring out SSJ to draw out Frost's true power since he was incapable of that in his base form. Copy Vegeta they were equal no matter what form they started in.
* Fights against the copy villains: uses base, Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 3, instead of Blue.
Thing is they weren't even real and just illusions.
* Fights against Bergamo, uses bases and Super Saiyan instead of Blue.
Again, nothing wrong with this since even Beerus established Goku was above them all individually in his base form, there's no need to go higher when its not necessary.
* Vegeta fights against Magetta, instead of turning Blue he tries to beat the opponent in Super Saiyan.
Yeah, that was definitely stupid on Vegeta's part since he got his ass beat silly and couldn't do jack to Magetta as a SSJ.
In general, Goku matches his opponent whenever possible. It's become nothing short of his patented M.O; Super's especially making this a very pivotal thing whenever Goku fights, albeit I could agree on some point that it does constitute artificial drama.
To be fair, I was more asking for examples pf Goku matching his level down to opponents far weaker than him for enjoyment, not him starting out comparable to opponents in base then raising his level further in accordance, that's standard MO for Goku, I was asking for the exact opposite really.
Not to my knowledge or, well, not in particular. It's just ROF's form treated like a transformation which yields a higher power-up than Super Saiyan 1/2/3; interestingly, it's slightly weaker than Super Saiyan God though.
I see, that's VGs for you.
I was not mentioning Freeza for any reason other than giving you a bit of food for thought. Do note that while possible this is still extrapolation, though. What's outright stated is only that Freeza had reached a serene mind through that training, which enabled him to overcome his stamina issues with the Golden form. Goku does refer to him as "stronger" after he's informed of this, but the "stronger" tidbit is most likely in reference to his additional stamina, given that it's, well, staying at 100% for as long as he wants instead of seconds is obviously gonna make him drastically "stronger", or "more powerful".
What you did above is head canon, you took a clear cut statement and turned it to mean something other than what is said. Freeza is stronger in general, not because of greater stamina, this is further reinforced after Golden Freeza and SSJB Goku collide Goku mentions you're not the only one that's gotten stronger, I've gotten stronger as well from fighting strong guys. Keep in mind Goku needed SSJB+KKx10 just to tangle with Hit, next rematch he's able to take him down this time with just SSJB meaning Goku has gotten over 10 times stronger than before, this Goku tied with Golden Freeza. Being able to stay at 100% indefinitely instead of a few minutes wouldn't make Freeza any stronger, it just means his strength doesn't decline rapidly from stamina burn out like beforehand.
While in Hell, Freeza could not move, and he had previously implied he needed to "train" like a normal person to get stronger. His "unmatched strength and perfect control" statement is in reference to the fact he can control his Golden form without issue now. It doesn't really come off as a natural conclusion to think he meant some "I can train while not moving" thing. Somewhat like the two-base affair's criticism, if you may.
Freeza never said or implied he needed to train like a normal person to get stronger. I don't know if you noticed or not, but mental training is also another form of training that increases the ki as shown in the series with Piccolo's constant meditating and the Super Exciting Guides do in fact mention Goku's mental training raises his overall ki level along with Gohan's mental training with Kuririn on their way to Namek also raised his level so yeah, its not impossible for Freeza to grow stronger purely through mental training and there's nothing in the series saying he can't improve strictly through that either and seeing as how he's stomping people in the ToP that give his SSJ form trouble when previous beforehand he was inferior to Goku's base back during RoF I'm going to disagree with you on Freeza not getting overall stronger.
A lot of people will give you their take on what SBG is; however, the common denominator is just that the base Saiyans will be stronger than SS3 and weaker than Blue.
So in the end there's nothing actually concrete from the series itself?
I think you are nevertheless completely correct in saying Goku's strength and Gohan's is portrayed as vastly different levels. You could simply see the two-base theory as some in-universe patchwork, entirely fanmade but with some root in the available material.
Thing is, there's no concrete proof or evidence of this two base theory in the series proper. Out of universe material that's never referenced in-universe at all at any point in the series is irrelevant. Same thing with theories and head canon. With SSJG itself coming back hopefully this will kill the two base theory for good.

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Re: What about Saiyan beyond god/2 base theory now?

Post by LowRyder2005 » Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:26 pm

This is becoming gigantic. I'll try to slim down the post a little.
Yet in BoGs Goku was a Saiyan with the power of a SSJG while SSJ, then when he reverts to base, then back to SSJ he still does not turn SSJB so this out of universe pamphlet isn't exactly correct and such a thing is once again not hinted, implied, suggested, or even stated in the series proper itself so...
I'm afraid your objection doesn't make much sense. The pamphlet is, first off, official material. It's also merely parroting Goku's words when he describes Blue for the first time. BOG doesn't contradict anything until proven otherwise, since it happens way before ROF takes place. We don't know what happened to that Super Saiyan in-between; it could've just become Blue for all we know.

Regarding Gohan, you were starting to theorize Goku could've turned "Super Saiyan Beyond God" or something like that -- which to me is basically the same idea behind thinking Gohan could turn "Super Ultimate". Again, until proven wrong, it's purely speculation on the possibility of a plothole, certainly not something that qualifies as a concrete "contradiction".

Regarding Kid Buu, Goku expressly says he underestimated his opponent and missed his window of opportunity to deal with Kid Buu at his maximum power and later both he and Vegeta agree Goku could defeat Kid Buu by gathering 100% his ki. Which means that if Goku did the same attack in the very beginning he would've disposed of Kid Buu. Instead, Goku takes his time fighting the opponent. If we don't want to be particularly critical, one may understand it might've been poor judgement or simply a bad call, though.

In every other case I don't really know what more to add, since I think they really speak for themselves: Goku could win much more easily with form x and yet fights prolongedly without using it. If Goku's rationally inclined to is save the planet/ win the fight and not "enjoying" the fight he would turn Blue and defeat everyone with ease -- he could've defeated in one punch Freeza, Frost, and everyone else with his best form, and yet he takes his sweet time exchanging fists with his current foe. It's nothing short of self-demonstrating; I don't really understand how else it's supposed to "makes sense" to you - in an "rational consumer" sense - in the slightest, since it's like going at the supermarket and choosing a longer waiting line.

Goku is the same character which at some point didn't want to rely on Fusion because he would've totally outmatched the opponent and he thought it was "unfair". He'll clearly follow some particular set of self-imposed rules that are not always rational, including handicapping himself, getting as close as possible to his opponent's strength unless pushed to hit a new level of strength and so on. Again, I feel like this is so self-demonstrating and so much of a character trait that I'm kind of lost as to why there should be a need to have a lengthy explanation.
He does use SSJ3 in the movie, but I assume we are just discussing the manga/anime of Super?
He uses Super Saiyan 1/2/3 versus Beerus in the anime. In the movie he just goes straight to SS3, which doesn't actually qualify as the kind of Goku's m.o. I had in mind.
To be fair, I was more asking for examples pf Goku matching his level down to opponents far weaker than him for enjoyment, not him starting out comparable to opponents in base then raising his level further in accordance, that's standard MO for Goku, I was asking for the exact opposite really.
The point is, why should that be all that much different? What should be considered Goku's full power under normal condition is his at bare minimum SSB (I'll leave aside SSB + KK since it appears like it has serious drawbacks). Goku could win most of his 1 on 1 fights using Blue and yet doesn't; it could exactly be considered the same as "matching his level down to opponents far weaker". This looks more like an "half-full or half-empty" type of deal, but the matter of fact is that Goku does tend to match his level to opponents who are overall weaker than he is.
What you did above is head canon, you took a clear cut statement and turned it to mean something other than what is said. Freeza is stronger in general, not because of greater stamina
Having more stamina is plenty enough to warrant a general "he's stronger", since Freeza's power level would take a horrible hit after mere minutes. Besides, the entire context of Freeza's exchange is him going at length with how his control of his stamina improved. If after rewatching that scene you'd conclude that meditating made him that much stronger is a natural deduction and that the statement is "clear", good for you, I disagree. I don't feel like I'm twisting the scene in the slightest and - honestly - I don't believe you should think I am either.
Keep in mind Goku needed SSJB+KKx10 just to tangle with Hit, next rematch he's able to take him down this time with just SSJB meaning Goku has gotten over 10 times stronger than before, this Goku tied with Golden Freeza. Being able to stay at 100% indefinitely instead of a few minutes wouldn't make Freeza any stronger, it just means his strength doesn't decline rapidly from stamina burn out like beforehand.
Same as above. This is nothing more than an inference of yours. Firstly, it's not even established that the techniques are the same (one is a Time Skip, the other one is a Time Zone containment-field-type); secondly, whichever the case, it could also be Goku's understanding of the technique and not making it work twice more than anything else. You'd need a clear statement about how Goku got "over ten times stronger", not your personal deductions on how the technique supposedly compares to Goku's PL.
Freeza never said or implied he needed to train like a normal person to get stronger. I don't know if you noticed or not, but mental training is also another form of training that increases the ki as shown in the series with Piccolo's constant meditating and the Super Exciting Guides do in fact mention Goku's mental training raises his overall ki level along with Gohan's mental training with Kuririn on their way to Namek also raised his level so yeah, its not impossible for Freeza to grow stronger purely through mental training and there's nothing in the series saying he can't improve strictly through that either and seeing as how he's stomping people in the ToP that give his SSJ form trouble when previous beforehand he was inferior to Goku's base back during RoF I'm going to disagree with you on Freeza not getting overall stronger.
Perhaps you're misunderstanding. I never said I'm against the notion in absolute terms per se, I'm just stating that given the context of the scene I feel like it looks like a nearly absurd contention, especially if you label as something intended on the writer's part. Starting from the fact that Freeza doesn't say a plain "I'm stronger" anywhere and yet he stresses on how his control improved, or to how would the average viewer inclined to think he got stronger through meditating. It could be possible, this much is obvious, I just doubt it's intended.
Thing is, there's no concrete proof or evidence of this two base theory in the series proper.
While true, if you've been following every power-related connotation or little statement, the "series" arguably starts plainly contradicting itself the moment Gohan is brought back in the picture, which is reflective of what's most likely a retcon; it's slightly understandable some fans would make theories to solve it from an in-universe perspective by thinking outside the box. It's not everyone's proverbial cup of tea, but you should realize that in most cases it depends on whether you more are inclined to wear your Watsonian or Doylist hat -- as someone else here on Kanzenshuu wittily said in our "Strength Thread".

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Re: What about Saiyan beyond god/2 base theory now?

Post by Tectorman » Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:54 am

LowRyder2005 wrote:He uses Super Saiyan 1/2/3 versus Beerus in the anime. In the movie he just goes straight to SS3, which doesn't actually qualify as the kind of Goku's m.o. I had in mind.
Remember the full context, though. He goes to SSJ3 to show off the form; he does not have any intention of fighting with that form and offers to drop down to SSJ2 for the actual sparring match. It's only after Beerus tells him he need not bother powering down that he sticks with SSJ3.

Unless I'm misunderstanding what you were saying about Goku's usual SOP.
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Re: What about Saiyan beyond god/2 base theory now?

Post by LowRyder2005 » Sat Aug 12, 2017 2:11 am

Tectorman wrote:
LowRyder2005 wrote:He uses Super Saiyan 1/2/3 versus Beerus in the anime. In the movie he just goes straight to SS3, which doesn't actually qualify as the kind of Goku's m.o. I had in mind.
Remember the full context, though. He goes to SSJ3 to show off the form; he does not have any intention of fighting with that form and offers to drop down to SSJ2 for the actual sparring match. It's only after Beerus tells him he need not bother powering down that he sticks with SSJ3.

Unless I'm misunderstanding what you were saying about Goku's usual SOP.
No, you're not misunderstanding at all. I stand corrected, since the detail in question had kind of slipped my mind (in fact, I feel like it greatly helps me make my point). Much appreciated. :)

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Re: What about Saiyan beyond god/2 base theory now?

Post by ChiefWamsutta » Sat Aug 12, 2017 2:13 am

This is my theory on how Super Saiyan God is returning, along with Goku's limit breaker form. I believe this explains the presence of Saiyan Beyond God, Super Saiyan God, and the newly-hinted orange form from the Japanese chocolate box.



Image

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Re: What about Saiyan beyond god/2 base theory now?

Post by LowRyder2005 » Sat Aug 12, 2017 2:38 am

This is my theory on how Super Saiyan God is returning, along with Goku's limit breaker form. I believe this explains the presence of Saiyan Beyond God, Super Saiyan God, and the newly-hinted orange form from the Japanese chocolate box.

[snip]
From an in-universe perspective, I agree, also feel like it's the best way to rationalize things.

It will be interesting to see how deep they'll go with the supposed explanation of "why does SS God re-appear only now". What's easily deducible is that they'll have to tackle the topic with at least some bare-bone exposition, but it would definitely be cool on their part if they take at least some time to connect God to this new form. I could see them having Goku state he's only recently reclaimed mastery of the full Super Saiyan God's form, which would act as a springboard for something else.

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Re: What about Saiyan beyond god/2 base theory now?

Post by Kishido » Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:42 am

ChiefWamsutta wrote:This is my theory on how Super Saiyan God is returning, along with Goku's limit breaker form. I believe this explains the presence of Saiyan Beyond God, Super Saiyan God, and the newly-hinted orange form from the Japanese chocolate box.



Image
That's what I think too.

Nice chart

Edit
I really want to see Vegeta's reaction to it

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Re: What about Saiyan beyond god/2 base theory now?

Post by superfan2024 » Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:57 pm

We still don't know what that steamy aura around Goku is though. In the opening, we see a base Goku (with steamy aura) go head to head against Jiren.

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Re: What about Saiyan beyond god/2 base theory now?

Post by lord turbo » Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:19 pm

LowRyder2005 wrote:I'm afraid your objection doesn't make much sense. The pamphlet is, first off, official material. It's also merely parroting Goku's words when he describes Blue for the first time. BOG doesn't contradict anything until proven otherwise, since it happens way before ROF takes place. We don't know what happened to that Super Saiyan in-between; it could've just become Blue for all we know.
The Daizenshuu/Perfect Files are also official material, yet they still have information in it that outright contradicts the source material so that stuff isn't exactly infallible. The anime/manga takes precedence over secondary supplement material. BoGs and Toriyama (BoGs interview) literally contradicts this pamphlet as Goku has already absorbed the power of SSJG yet turns SSJ twice, yet never once goes blue thus contradicting the pamphlet. It happening before RoF changes nothing since the pamphlet made a claim that is not only contradicted in the source material, its not even acknowledged either.
Regarding Gohan, you were starting to theorize Goku could've turned "Super Saiyan Beyond God" or something like that -- which to me is basically the same idea behind thinking Gohan could turn "Super Ultimate". Again, until proven wrong, it's purely speculation on the possibility of a plothole, certainly not something that qualifies as a concrete "contradiction".
Yet Gohan can't turn Super Ultimate and if he could he would have already done so, there's nothing in the series at this current point in time that says that's possible, instead it points out its a separate transformation, not something that can be combined or stacked together like SSJB and Kaioken and until such a thing happens its just that, a theory/speculation with zero basis behind it.
Regarding Kid Buu, Goku expressly says he underestimated his opponent and missed his window of opportunity to deal with Kid Buu at his maximum power and later both he and Vegeta agree Goku could defeat Kid Buu by gathering 100% his ki.
Context, Goku explicitly states he's been going all out from the start, what you're talking about is literally gathering ki for an attack which is different. Goku is not holding back anything less than full power from the start. However, he's unable to gather the necessary ki for a minute for the attack because Kid Buu isn't going to sit still and wait for Goku to do so, that's different. That's like saying Piccolo didn't use max power against Raditz because he didn't get a chance to charge his DBC (Demonic Beam Cannon) for 5 minutes during the middle of fighting him.
In every other case I don't really know what more to add, since I think they really speak for themselves: Goku could win much more easily with form x and yet fights prolongedly without using it. If Goku's rationally inclined to is save the planet/ win the fight and not "enjoying" the fight he would turn Blue and defeat everyone with ease -- he could've defeated in one punch Freeza, Frost, and everyone else with his best form, and yet he takes his sweet time exchanging fists with his current foe.
I'm asking when has Goku ever irrationally refrained from using more power when he was getting his ass handed to by an opponent much weaker than him in DB/Z like he's constantly portrayed for some reason in Super? There's a difference between holding back and having fun, but still in control and not having fun and getting overwhelmed and not in control.
Goku is the same character which at some point didn't want to rely on Fusion because he would've totally outmatched the opponent and he thought it was "unfair".
Goku's reason for that was Kid Buu was no longer fused with anyone and just using his own power so he should use his own as well in conjunction thinking he was weak enough for him to beat, turns out his wrong and under estimated Kid Buu and regreted destroying the potara.
He'll clearly follow some particular set of self-imposed rules that are not always rational, including handicapping himself, getting as close as possible to his opponent's strength unless pushed to hit a new level of strength and so on.
Consistency is the key here, Goku is too inconsistent in Super's anime compared to back during DB/Z.
He uses Super Saiyan 1/2/3 versus Beerus in the anime. In the movie he just goes straight to SS3, which doesn't actually qualify as the kind of Goku's m.o. I had in mind.
To be fair Goku can't sense Beerus' ki to gauge the strength to use against him so it actually makes sense to start off at lower levels, if anything the movie is weird for not doing it (Guess runtime reasons for a movie format) so it makes sense for Goku to do it in that context.
The point is, why should that be all that much different?
Because context is important, what Goku does against his opponents from db/z is different than how he's inconsistently portrayed in the DBS anime by Toei here and there.
What should be considered Goku's full power under normal condition is his at bare minimum SSB (I'll leave aside SSB + KK since it appears like it has serious drawbacks). Goku could win most of his 1 on 1 fights using Blue and yet doesn't; it could exactly be considered the same as "matching his level down to opponents far weaker". This looks more like an "half-full or half-empty" type of deal, but the matter of fact is that Goku does tend to match his level to opponents who are overall weaker than he is.
Same as above, I'm not talking about the character fighting smarter, I'm more concerned about the inconsistent portrayal in Goku's characterization that doesn't match his standard MO. Goku didn't match his level down to final form Freeza when he was kicking his ass in base form for a good fight, same thing for Frost when he was beating the hell out Frost as a SSJ. Goku tends to quickly take down characters (Ginyu Force) much weaker than him rather than play down to their level for his own enjoyment like you claimed he did earlier. Goku is interested in fighting strong opponents, not opponents much weaker than him.

Another issue is that DBZ movie syndrome where characters refuse to use their true power and get the shit kicked out for long periods of time before remembering they can transform into a higher form. Vegeta did this against Mageta when he had zero chance against him as a SSJ, Goku initially did this against Black when he beat up Base Goku (which is strange since Goku already had a good measurement to start out from sparring with Trunks earlier about Black's level) or Goku against Toppo the first time around, clearly Goku can sense Toppo in his current state is a match for his SSJB so why get the crap beat out of him in his SSJ when he should have known this beforehand. There's too many moments where Goku forgets he has abilities and how to be a veteran fighter, Vegeta sometimes too.

Stuff like that abandons the character's natural traits and personality.
Having more stamina is plenty enough to warrant a general "he's stronger", since Freeza's power level would take a horrible hit after mere minutes.
Even if that was so what difference does it make? Being stronger is being stronger, Freeza currently now is way stronger than he was during RoF saga, Goku mentions he's increased his power since then more than once, 3 times actually, what more than you need?
Besides, the entire context of Freeza's exchange is him going at length with how his control of his stamina improved. If after rewatching that scene you'd conclude that meditating made him that much stronger is a natural deduction and that the statement is "clear", good for you, I disagree.
Its clear because that's exactly what is said.

Goku: Wow, you've gotten stronger even though you couldn't move your body.

That's a clear cut statement, you ignoring or confusing it doesn't change that. I don't see how you can twist a clear cut statement into something else.
Same as above. This is nothing more than an inference of yours.
How so, at this point you're denying increases in power from the characters.
Firstly, it's not even established that the techniques are the same (one is a Time Skip, the other one is a Time Zone containment-field-type); secondly, whichever the case, it could also be Goku's understanding of the technique and not making it work twice more than anything else. You'd need a clear statement about how Goku got "over ten times stronger", not your personal deductions on how the technique supposedly compares to Goku's PL.
Firstly, it is the same technique, Vados describes in-depth what goes on when Hit uses TS, a detail that was not revealed during U6 saga.,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqISFkM6C6k

Also, I don't need a clear statement when its blatantly shown on screen. Last time we saw Hit he was slightly above SSJB+KKx10 Goku in speed, durability and strength. This was a Hit restricted by the tournament rules. SSJB Goku+KKx10 = Hit. During the rematch Hit is stated to be at his best (so he's stronger here than at the tournament meaning Hit > SSJB+KKx10), so you can't claim he's holding back here), yet he's having trouble against SSJB Goku (Non-Kaioken) who's matching his speed, strength, and attacks so much that when he uses his full power he breaks Hit's TIme-Skip (something Goku couldn't do as SSJB+KKx10).

I really shouldn't have to explain this, this is standard battle shonen Dragon Ball 101.
Perhaps you're misunderstanding. I never said I'm against the notion in absolute terms per se, I'm just stating that given the context of the scene I feel like it looks like a nearly absurd contention, especially if you label as something intended on the writer's part. Starting from the fact that Freeza doesn't say a plain "I'm stronger" anywhere and yet he stresses on how his control improved, or to how would the average viewer inclined to think he got stronger through meditating. It could be possible, this much is obvious, I just doubt it's intended.
There you go again focusing on only one thing and ignoring the rest, its outright stated by Goku multiple times Freeza's power got stronger, why must Freeza stress this when Goku is the one doing it?
While true, if you've been following every power-related connotation or little statement, the "series" arguably starts plainly contradicting itself the moment Gohan is brought back in the picture, which is reflective of what's most likely a retcon; it's slightly understandable some fans would make theories to solve it from an in-universe perspective by thinking outside the box. It's not everyone's proverbial cup of tea, but you should realize that in most cases it depends on whether you more are inclined to wear your Watsonian or Doylist hat -- as someone else here on Kanzenshuu wittily said in our "Strength Thread".
No doubt, the series has been straight up contradicting itself left and right as far as the anime is concerned, I'm just saying theories don't make the series better, its still flawed and wrong here and there, doing a bunch of mental gymnastics doesn't change that which is fine to me. I don't know about everyone else but constant retcons doesn't bother me since I've been a fan of Marvel/DC comics for over a decade so retro-active continuity is no stranger to me to the point I don't see the need to do head-canon to make sense of things, it just is and I roll with it.

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Re: What about Saiyan beyond god/2 base theory now?

Post by Miracles » Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:44 pm

jplaya2023 wrote:i never got on board with this 2 base theory. It's always been base - ssj - ssj2 - ssj3 - ssj red - ssj blue
WE HAVE A WINNER!
Someone actually following the canon instead of throwing their own wild theories in the facts.
Not to mention all those modes are powered up due to Goku absorbing god powers!
It's not hard people. Just stick with the story and you'll have no problems.
So yes, due to the previous, copy Vegeta > SSJ3 Gotenks

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Re: What about Saiyan beyond god/2 base theory now?

Post by ChiefWamsutta » Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:36 pm

Miracles wrote:
jplaya2023 wrote:i never got on board with this 2 base theory. It's always been base - ssj - ssj2 - ssj3 - ssj red - ssj blue
WE HAVE A WINNER!
Someone actually following the canon instead of throwing their own wild theories in the facts.
Not to mention all those modes are powered up due to Goku absorbing god powers!
It's not hard people. Just stick with the story and you'll have no problems.
So yes, due to the previous, copy Vegeta > SSJ3 Gotenks
I'm going to have to respectfully disagree. None of those forms seem to be powered-up because of absorbing God power. Goku's SS3 is not greater than Battle of God's SSGod Goku. As of right now, it is implied that Goku's DBZ forms are around their Buu saga power level.

"Sticking to the story" is hard when it is a rather inconsistent show, sorry.

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Re: What about Saiyan beyond god/2 base theory now?

Post by Whatever » Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:29 pm

ChiefWamsutta wrote:
Miracles wrote:
jplaya2023 wrote:i never got on board with this 2 base theory. It's always been base - ssj - ssj2 - ssj3 - ssj red - ssj blue
WE HAVE A WINNER!
Someone actually following the canon instead of throwing their own wild theories in the facts.
Not to mention all those modes are powered up due to Goku absorbing god powers!
It's not hard people. Just stick with the story and you'll have no problems.
So yes, due to the previous, copy Vegeta > SSJ3 Gotenks
I'm going to have to respectfully disagree. None of those forms seem to be powered-up because of absorbing God power. Goku's SS3 is not greater than Battle of God's SSGod Goku. As of right now, it is implied that Goku's DBZ forms are around their Buu saga power level.

"Sticking to the story" is hard when it is a rather inconsistent show, sorry.
Around their Buu saga power level so Goku in base is weaker than Namek Freeza?
The theory is more incosistent than the show itself.

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Re: What about Saiyan beyond god/2 base theory now?

Post by Miracles » Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:34 pm

ChiefWamsutta wrote:
Miracles wrote:
jplaya2023 wrote:i never got on board with this 2 base theory. It's always been base - ssj - ssj2 - ssj3 - ssj red - ssj blue
WE HAVE A WINNER!
Someone actually following the canon instead of throwing their own wild theories in the facts.
Not to mention all those modes are powered up due to Goku absorbing god powers!
It's not hard people. Just stick with the story and you'll have no problems.
So yes, due to the previous, copy Vegeta > SSJ3 Gotenks
I'm going to have to respectfully disagree. None of those forms seem to be powered-up because of absorbing God power. Goku's SS3 is not greater than Battle of God's SSGod Goku. As of right now, it is implied that Goku's DBZ forms are around their Buu saga power level.

"Sticking to the story" is hard when it is a rather inconsistent show, sorry.
Base Vegeta bodied SSJ3 Gotenks. The story is telling the audience. Just gotta accept it.

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Re: What about Saiyan beyond god/2 base theory now?

Post by LowRyder2005 » Sun Aug 13, 2017 3:29 am

The Daizenshuu/Perfect Files are also official material, yet they still have information in it that outright contradicts the source material so that stuff isn't exactly infallible. The anime/manga takes precedence over secondary supplement material. BoGs and Toriyama (BoGs interview) literally contradicts this pamphlet as Goku has already absorbed the power of SSJG yet turns SSJ twice, yet never once goes blue thus contradicting the pamphlet. It happening before RoF changes nothing since the pamphlet made a claim that is not only contradicted in the source material, its not even acknowledged either.
And there's still literally no contradiction to be found, because you don't know a thing about what happened in-between BOG and ROF. Like I said, Goku doesn't use Super Saiyan in the ROF movie, so the argument he can by default is, well, pointless. I also stress again that the pamphlet is just paraphrasing Goku when Goku says that Blue is "Super Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God"; the only thing that changes is that instead of Goku's POV it becomes the guide's POV.
Yet Gohan can't turn Super Ultimate and if he could he would have already done so.
You're missing the point: your idea that "it's a contradiction because wouldn't Goku be able to turn Super Saiyan Beyond God" would read exactly like "it could be a contradiction because Gohan could be able to go Super Ultimate". Goku turns Super Saiyan, but he has not a single feat in which he displays power which can be deduced as unambiguously superior - in the order of many tens of times, like Super's description of the Super Saiyan power-up - to Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks.
Context, Goku explicitly states he's been going all out from the start, what you're talking about is literally gathering ki for an attack which is different. Goku is not holding back anything less than full power from the start. However, he's unable to gather the necessary ki for a minute for the attack because Kid Buu isn't going to sit still and wait for Goku to do so, that's different. That's like saying Piccolo didn't use max power against Raditz because he didn't get a chance to charge his DBC (Demonic Beam Cannon) for 5 minutes during the middle of fighting him.
All right.
I'm asking when has Goku ever irrationally refrained from using more power when he was getting his ass handed to by an opponent much weaker than him in DB/Z like he's constantly portrayed for some reason in Super? There's a difference between holding back and having fun, but still in control and not having fun and getting overwhelmed and not in control.
I feel like we're getting astray from your original argument. I was hardly including DB and DBZ. Goku unlocks his Super Saiyan forms quite far in the game and every other time preceeding Namek, like against Raditz/ Nappa/ Vegeta/ Freeza his other power-ups either have important drawbacks or he's fighting strong foes that don't really make him hold back.
Super is the main offender for me, since it's clear Goku's superior to the vast majority of the people he fought. You're already saying Goku does hold back, which means he could simply hold back the form and/or skip it. It doesn't really change much from what you've already seen every time Goku fought in Super if Goku has a form in-between SS3 and God (in fact, it would only solve other crass contradictions made by the writing team).
Consistency is the key here, Goku is too inconsistent in Super's anime compared to back during DB/Z.
I'm practically saying the same, so yes, I agree.
Even if that was so what difference does it make? Being stronger is being stronger, Freeza currently now is way stronger than he was during RoF saga, Goku mentions he's increased his power since then more than once, 3 times actually, what more than you need?
I only remember Goku saying "you're not the only one who got stronger". Unless there was something more compelling, I'm not really convinced at all for the reasons I've stated. I'm very inclined to think the scene wouldn't have been written with Freeza being confined in a cocoon and Freeza's dialogue would've mentioned how he reached new heights of power, not a dialogue that sums up as "You think I won't be able to keep this up for the tournament? Don't worry, I don't have my stamina issues anymore" and nothing else. I don't think anyone would write such a scene with people in the audience reaching the conclusion Freeza got stronger. If there's something else, I'd be happy if you could provide it.
Wow, you've gotten stronger even though you couldn't move your body.
I have no knowledge of this statement. Has this been really said or are you paraphrasing? Although, as I told you, I have a realy hard time taking Goku's "stronger" (in the context of their exchange) for anything other that "you are stronger = since you have higher stamina, you can finally use the Golden form properly". To be appeased I'd really need to witness someone spectating a Freeza's strength feat in the TOP who thereby added a "wow, he's stronger".
I really shouldn't have to explain this, this is standard battle shonen Dragon Ball 101.
Firstly, there's again nothing stating that the techniques are the same: the video if anything leaves plenty of room to consider them different, since the Time Skip may just store the time Hit "skips" (which has the effect of the Time Skip seen in the U6 arc) within the Time Dimension he later uses against Goku. The techniques aren't visually the exact same, also, hence there's absolutely no means to deduce whether one is a powered up version of the other or if it works on some basic different principle other than the fact it has to do with time.
Other than that, we'd be also going off the assumption that Goku's ki or strength plays a part in this and that it's not his understanding of the technique or something less concrete at work.
I'm just saying theories don't make the series better, its still flawed and wrong here and there, doing a bunch of mental gymnastics doesn't change that which is fine to me. I don't know about everyone else but constant retcons doesn't bother me since I've been a fan of Marvel/DC comics for over a decade so retro-active continuity is no stranger to me to the point I don't see the need to do head-canon to make sense of things, it just is and I roll with it.
I've been a Marvel fan for what's basically twenty years; I wager that if Dragon Ball wasn't as self-contained and streamlined as something as big as a Marvel continuity, people would probably just disregard this or that author's doing. Here we have something which is much more progressive, though, limited in scope, with the author of the original, limited series' supposed "quality check" and with a clear "end" in sight. It's obvious they'll be naturally inclined to make the pieces fit.

You may see them as mental gymnastics (it's not much different than that) but it doesn't mean they are completely devoid of any worth; it's the principle behind many "ascended fanon" mechanics, which isn't really unheard of in fiction and something which authors occasionally end up relying on when the need arises (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... endedFanon).
Base Vegeta bodied SSJ3 Gotenks.
Base Gohan, who following that reasoning is equal to base Goku, is stated multiple times to be around some hundreds times weaker -- since he's stated, and reported as someone who can't even reach the power he had in the Buu arc by every single source that tackles or describes his power or character arc in general. This idea that the story makes sense only works on a feeble surface level, it doesn't the moment you put everything that's said in context and not on a more general, sparse outline.

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Re: What about Saiyan beyond god/2 base theory now?

Post by lord turbo » Wed Aug 16, 2017 10:01 pm

LowRyder2005 wrote:And there's still literally no contradiction to be found, because you don't know a thing about what happened in-between BOG and ROF. Like I said, Goku doesn't use Super Saiyan in the ROF movie, so the argument he can by default is, well, pointless. I also stress again that the pamphlet is just paraphrasing Goku when Goku says that Blue is "Super Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God"; the only thing that changes is that instead of Goku's POV it becomes the guide's POV.
Despite the fact Goku with the power of a SSJG transforms twice into SSJ and doesn't become SSJ you mean, whatever happen in-between BoG and RoF is irrelevant since its pure speculation you can't prove. Supplement material don't take precedence over the source material, its the other way around.
I only remember Goku saying "you're not the only one who got stronger". Unless there was something more compelling, I'm not really convinced at all for the reasons I've stated. I'm very inclined to think the scene wouldn't have been written with Freeza being confined in a cocoon and Freeza's dialogue would've mentioned how he reached new heights of power, not a dialogue that sums up as "You think I won't be able to keep this up for the tournament? Don't worry, I don't have my stamina issues anymore" and nothing else. I don't think anyone would write such a scene with people in the audience reaching the conclusion Freeza got stronger. If there's something else, I'd be happy if you could provide it.
Freeza mentions his energy control skills have dramatically improved. Anytime that has happened in the series the character's overall power level increased from what it was before as shown with training the strain and energy consumption that comes from using SSJ during the Cell Saga to Goku mastering SSJB in the DBS manga so that's one part that proves Freeza got stronger.

Freeza also mentions after slaughtering the assassins "How do you like the new and improved me?" Again, that same phrase has been used constantly in DB and has always consistently shown the character in question is more powerful than they previously were beforehand. That's a second statement that proves Freeza got stronger compared to back in RoF.

"You weren't able to move (Reference to Freeza in hell), but your power has really increased." In reference to Goku struggling in the Hakai energy Freeza mentions "Perhaps I've become too strong." Again, another reference to a strength increase and the last one ás you mentioned yourself "you're not the only one who got stronger". Once again reconfirming Freeza's power level has increased higher than what it was back in RoF, Dragon Ball is very straight forward and simple with that kind of stuff. At the end of the day current Freeza is much stronger than he was back during RoF saga.
I have no knowledge of this statement. Has this been really said or are you paraphrasing?
No problem, it was said in episode 95 right after Freeza escaped and contained Sidra's Hakai energy ball.
Although, as I told you, I have a realy hard time taking Goku's "stronger" (in the context of their exchange) for anything other that "you are stronger = since you have higher stamina, you can finally use the Golden form properly".
Again, even if that was true that still changes nothing, all it would mean is that Freeza's level of strength currently is much higher than what he could ever use during the RoF saga. A power up is a power up, don't over complicate it.
Firstly, there's again nothing stating that the techniques are the same: the video if anything leaves plenty of room to consider them different, since the Time Skip may just store the time Hit "skips" (which has the effect of the Time Skip seen in the U6 arc) within the Time Dimension he later uses against Goku. The techniques aren't visually the exact same, also, hence there's absolutely no means to deduce whether one is a powered up version of the other or if it works on some basic different principle other than the fact it has to do with time.
Um...No, they are the same technique, Vados merely explains the mechanics behind Time-Skip (Its not called anything else and neither does Hit mention its different than his Time-Skip), something we didn't have back during the U6 saga and visually they are the same technique, the background of the time dimension of the time-skip is the exact same as always. However, what you are talking about is now them actively showing what it looks like outside the realm of time skip. That's not a difference in technique, that's a difference in PoV which they simply didn't show back during the U6 arc until now.
Other than that, we'd be also going off the assumption that Goku's ki or strength plays a part in this and that it's not his understanding of the technique or something less concrete at work.
I was going more off on the fact that SSJB Goku was keeping pace and trading blows back and forth evenly with a stronger Hit when he could barely keep up and match blows with a weaker Hit with SSJB+KKx10, there's also the fact the sheer power radiating from SSJB Goku is enough to shatter time-skip when the sheer power radiating from SSJB+KKx10 didn't come close to the same. Current SSJB Goku > SSJB+KKx10 Goku > SSJB Goku (U6 tournament).
I've been a Marvel fan for what's basically twenty years; I wager that if Dragon Ball wasn't as self-contained and streamlined as something as big as a Marvel continuity, people would probably just disregard this or that author's doing. Here we have something which is much more progressive, though, limited in scope, with the author of the original, limited series' supposed "quality check" and with a clear "end" in sight. It's obvious they'll be naturally inclined to make the pieces fit.

You may see them as mental gymnastics (it's not much different than that) but it doesn't mean they are completely devoid of any worth; it's the principle behind many "ascended fanon" mechanics, which isn't really unheard of in fiction and something which authors occasionally end up relying on when the need arises (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... endedFanon).
Its easy to say that when it was solely Toriyama writing the series, nowadays is a joint effort by multiple people working on the same series so obviously not everything is going to fit all neat and perfect, the manga and anime have serious notable difference despite adapting the same thing. Sometimes an inconsistency is just that, an inconsistency, I feel no reason to do serious mental gymnastics to make everything fit flawlessly in the series, I ain't a writer or editor of the series so not really my job to do so for them.

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Re: What about Saiyan beyond god/2 base theory now?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:02 am

The anime stated that SS Goku was exactly as strong as SSG in BoG arc, and the scene was shown again in a flashback during the U6 arc. The whole situation has been a mess, since at some points base Goku & Vegeta appeared to be at god level, while at other points they appeared to be at regular level & transformed into SS/2/3, and then there was Goku Black, who reached god level in base while rivaling SSB Goku & Vegeta with his SSR. With the return of Super Saiyan God, they'll have to explain why the form returned and they could potentially explain the whole situation about its power being absorbed into base & SS. After this episode, either everything will make sense, or everything will fall apart.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: What about Saiyan beyond god/2 base theory now?

Post by emperior » Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:59 am

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:The anime stated that SS Goku was exactly as strong as SSG in BoG arc, and the scene was shown again in a flashback during the U6 arc. The whole situation has been a mess, since at some points base Goku & Vegeta appeared to be at god level, while at other points they appeared to be at regular level & transformed into SS/2/3, and then there was Goku Black, who reached god level in base while rivaling SSB Goku & Vegeta with his SSR. With the return of Super Saiyan God, they'll have to explain why the form returned and they could potentially explain the whole situation about its power being absorbed into base & SS. After this episode, either everything will make sense, or everything will fall apart.
I feel like they won't explain anything at all like usual. Goku will just go SSG without explanation.
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Re: What about Saiyan beyond god/2 base theory now?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:38 am

emperior wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:The anime stated that SS Goku was exactly as strong as SSG in BoG arc, and the scene was shown again in a flashback during the U6 arc. The whole situation has been a mess, since at some points base Goku & Vegeta appeared to be at god level, while at other points they appeared to be at regular level & transformed into SS/2/3, and then there was Goku Black, who reached god level in base while rivaling SSB Goku & Vegeta with his SSR. With the return of Super Saiyan God, they'll have to explain why the form returned and they could potentially explain the whole situation about its power being absorbed into base & SS. After this episode, either everything will make sense, or everything will fall apart.
I feel like they won't explain anything at all like usual. Goku will just go SSG without explanation.
That would be the worst case scenario. Why would Goku go SSG when his SS form is stated (twice) to be as strong as SSG? They have to give an answer to that.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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