What about Saiyan beyond god/2 base theory now?

[Kishido]

With the return of SSG it seems that the theories do not make sense now.

SSG just looks like Base with red hair so why should be there another god ki base as well?

And how the likes as Copy Vegeta could beat the shit out of SSJ3 Gotenks? Should we believe that base Vegeta is that much above a SSJ 3 fusion?

Same goes for Goku using transformations against other opponents. Are all of them above Final Form Freeza and Gotenks?

And I really want to know what they will do to the super natural healing powers and co now

[TheMikado]

So let me first explain once again what the two base theory is.

It is first and foremost a fan-made theory. Period.
I has no weight to the actual story or what is presented.
The two base theory ISN'T about what IS in the anime, but about what SHOULD be in the anime based on the narrative.

It was a theory which said their should be a certain specific progressions of forms. Base -> SSJ Yellow forms -> God form without SSJ (SbG or SSG) -> God form with SSJ (SSB)
In the anime there was a GIANT hole between SSJ3 and SSB. This is what people stated was the form Copy Vegeta and Goku used when they are able to withstand SSJ3 Gotenks with zero effort.

The out of universe explanation is that the writers did not know how strong Goku's base was supposed to be. Some assumed that when Toriyama submitted his outlines in some instances he would be talking about Base Goku and others the (SbG) God form. We do not know what happened or why. But the manga made a clear and decisive decision to make sure that Goku's base was well below SSJ3 Gotenks by a large margin, while the anime took the direction of making it much stronger.

Manga Goku base <<<< SSJ3 Gotenks <<<< Anime Goku base.
What happens logically is that the fighting format has been used as a comparison and gauge for future battles.
What this means is that in the anime

SSJ Goku/SSJ Gohan/Piccolo/SSJ Vegeta/Powered up Roshi/Tien/Krillin <<< SSJ3 Gotenks. Which all makes sense. Everyone stays in their consistent tiers.

Vs the anime where anyone stronger than base Goku would be stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks.

Looking at the list above, the idea that those characters could get such gains in such none specific means did not make sense even using the in-universe logic.
Thus it was thought that Goku must be using two different forms. One normal and one God infused but the anime was failing to show the difference.

The return of SSG only does exactly what fans have been stating all along. Goku MUST possess a form which uses God ki but does not utilize SSJ/SSB, and that Goku's real and true base/normal strength is only a bit stronger than his Buu saga self. So to answer your question. It proves what fans have been saying, there is gap in the progression in the anime and fans created the two base theory to fill the massive hole in writing from the writers. The inclusion of this only bolsters the idea that something went wrong in production as many people have theorized for a very long time now.

[ryan s]

always has been a terrible theory that everyone treated like a fact

[Kishido]

So why is there a Saiyan beyond god form in Heroes?

[ryan s]

hero's is not canon and has tons of whacky things like super mira using hero's as evidence is absurd

[Kishido]

hero's is not canon and has tons of whacky things like super mira using hero's as evidence is absurd

I know but why even using SSB all the time while you could have use SSG instead?

[ryan s]

Super is poorly written, it hurts to say it but it is so i think they got the idea from the manga and added it to the anime

i highly doubt they will explain why he has not used it

[DHM211]

Saiyan beyond god/2 base theory is only canon to Resurrection 'F'/Heros now I guess.

[pacz360]

How bout we wait until the episode drops to see to give us an ideas instead of making assumptions

[Kishido]

Saiyan beyond god/2 base theory is only canon to Resurrection 'F'/Heros now I guess.

So Gotenks <<<<everyone else

[DHM211]

Saiyan beyond god/2 base theory is only canon to Resurrection 'F'/Heros now I guess.

So Gotenks <<<<everyone else

Pretty much

[MKJ]

I'm curious to see how this is executed. It may end up explaining why Goku goes from blue to red in the opening. Can't wait to see the reaction if this version of red is beyond blue since they may go in a completely different direction with it than the manga.

[jplaya2023]

i never got on board with this 2 base theory. It's always been base - ssj - ssj2 - ssj3 - ssj red - ssj blue

[Ki Breaker]

Saiyan beyond god/2 base theory is only canon to Resurrection 'F'/Heros now I guess.

So Gotenks <<<<everyone else

If making this assumption sorts out everything else, then so be it..
Chalk it up to fusion having it's power deteriorate over time if fused being dosen't train

[TheMikado]

Saiyan beyond god/2 base theory is only canon to Resurrection 'F'/Heros now I guess.

So Gotenks <<<<everyone else

If making this assumption sorts out everything else, then so be it..
Chalk it up to fusion having it's power deteriorate over time if fused being dosen't train

The problem is it's SSJ3 Gotenks which also means Good Fat Buu must have got a lot stronger too, that or Roshi is now Super Buu tier...

[Grimlock]

hero's is not canon and has tons of whacky things like super mira using hero's as evidence is absurd

You do know that "Super Mira" is his Super Saiyan form, right? So what's so "whacky" about it?

[Ki Breaker]

So Gotenks <<<<everyone else

If making this assumption sorts out everything else, then so be it..
Chalk it up to fusion having it's power deteriorate over time if fused being dosen't train

The problem is it's SSJ3 Gotenks which also means Good Fat Buu must have got a lot stronger too, that or Roshi is now Super Buu tier...

We can theoretically have buu become much stonger as well, it's not impossible for him, guy gets skinny in hours, if he was training he must have done that before and knows it will give him results..
We don't see him on screen almost all the time, it's possible he was training off screen or ranging a park when nobody is looking

[TheMikado]

If making this assumption sorts out everything else, then so be it..
Chalk it up to fusion having it's power deteriorate over time if fused being dosen't train

The problem is it's SSJ3 Gotenks which also means Good Fat Buu must have got a lot stronger too, that or Roshi is now Super Buu tier...

We can theoretically have buu become much stonger as well, it's not impossible for him, guy gets skinny in hours, if he was training he must have done that before and knows it will give him results..
We don't see him on screen almost all the time, it's possible he was training off screen or ranging a park when nobody is looking

I have no problem with Buu getting stronger, he's pure magic. I'm looking at the old turtle hermit in particular.

Basically SSJ3 Gotenks is stronger than Buu Z. If Base Goku is now stronger by a large margin such that a SSJ3 Gotenks can't even hurt an equal base copy Vegeta who isnt even attempting to block his attacks. Then anyone who give base Goku trouble would need to be considerably stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks, and by extension Super Buu. Yet the only match up we see is base Goku and buff Buu, and base Goku and possessed Roshi. So who is stronger? Possessed Roshi or Buff Buu and what is the measurement for this, because right now the best constant we have is them both fighting base Goku. Again this is where having two separate bases with two different power levels would clear up the power scaling. We can always use the "holding back take" but we basically might as well have two different bases of different power levels at that point anyway. It's basically the same as the two base theory.

[ryan s]

hero's is not canon and has tons of whacky things like super mira using hero's as evidence is absurd

You do know that "Super Mira" is his Super Saiyan form, right? So what's so "whacky" about it?

everything is wacky about hero's from ssj4 broly to daubura kid buu and mira and super mira disagree? well deal with it. it's called an opinion and wow do you feel big for correcting whack just shows how much of a #### you are really

TheMikado i could argue the same with basil and lavenda, base Gohan was beating lavenda yet SSJ Vegeta was having trouble and UT Gohan was struggling with SSJ2 Goku and mystic is a 400x boost or more it's just simple inconsistency

[ChiefWamsutta]

The problem is it's SSJ3 Gotenks which also means Good Fat Buu must have got a lot stronger too, that or Roshi is now Super Buu tier...

We can theoretically have buu become much stonger as well, it's not impossible for him, guy gets skinny in hours, if he was training he must have done that before and knows it will give him results..
We don't see him on screen almost all the time, it's possible he was training off screen or ranging a park when nobody is looking

I have no problem with Buu getting stronger, he's pure magic. I'm looking at the old turtle hermit in particular.

Basically SSJ3 Gotenks is stronger than Buu Z. If Base Goku is now stronger by a large margin such that a SSJ3 Gotenks can't even hurt an equal base copy Vegeta who isnt even attempting to block his attacks. Then anyone who give base Goku trouble would need to be considerably stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks, and by extension Super Buu. Yet the only match up we see is base Goku and buff Buu, and base Goku and possessed Roshi. So who is stronger? Possessed Roshi or Buff Buu and what is the measurement for this, because right now the best constant we have is them both fighting base Goku. Again this is where having two separate bases with two different power levels would clear up the power scaling. We can always use the "holding back take" but we basically might as well have two different bases of different power levels at that point anyway. It's basically the same as the two base theory.

@TheMikado, I genuinely do appreciate your approach towards all of this. Your first post on this thread was very well put -- I think you have a great grasp of what the intention of Saiyan Beyond God is.

If you recall in one of our last correspondences, we were discussing how Saiyan Beyond God could fit into DBSuper after the Copy-Vegeta and Monaka-Beerus scenes. I genuinely do feel it is interesting that Super Saiyan God is confirmed to return by Toshio to Ken Xyro. This could either solve some of the problems surrounding Goku's Base or make it more difficult.

I am starting to believe it is safe to go with: Base -> SS1 -> SS2 -> SS3 -> SBG -> SSG -> SSB -> SSB KK