What about Saiyan beyond god/2 base theory now?

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LowRyder2005
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Re: What about Saiyan beyond god/2 base theory now?

Post by LowRyder2005 » Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:19 am

Despite the fact Goku with the power of a SSJG transforms twice into SSJ and doesn't become SSJ you mean, whatever happen in-between BoG and RoF is irrelevant since its pure speculation you can't prove. Supplement material don't take precedence over the source material, its the other way around.
The burden of proof here is not on me. The material outright implies that in the ROF movie they couldn't transform into SSB unless they had their "god-like power"; that's a premise, not something I need to prove.

The supplement material doesn't necessarily bring up any blatant contradictions in relation to what we've seen in both anime and manga, still.
Arguments could be made that Super's retroactively changing what was stated back then or that Goku and Vegeta could turn their power on and off in both scenarios, and the pamphlet could/would fit regardless. Which brings me back to why I mentioned the article in the first place. Although completely unmentioned and not acknowledged, or better yet unintended, the idea of two different base forms can also be seen as a sort of potential, involuntary byproduct of the writing through both feats and statements -- which is basically why the theory has enjoyed more than a modicum of fortune in the fanbase, in the first place.
No problem, it was said in episode 95 right after Freeza escaped and contained Sidra's Hakai energy ball.
Well, what do you know, I had missed it. I convene with your interpretation, then.
Um...No, they are the same technique, Vados merely explains the mechanics behind Time-Skip (Its not called anything else and neither does Hit mention its different than his Time-Skip), something we didn't have back during the U6 saga and visually they are the same technique, the background of the time dimension of the time-skip is the exact same as always. However, what you are talking about is now them actively showing what it looks like outside the realm of time skip. That's not a difference in technique, that's a difference in PoV which they simply didn't show back during the U6 arc until now.
Eh, honestly I don't think this is really going anywhere. To me the techniques could differ like (say) a Final Flash and a Kamehameha/Kikoho/Kienzan do. All are ki attacks, but they have different properties or effects. In-universe, the Time Dimension used by Hit in the pseudo-filler arc looks more like Guldo's attack than Hit skipping seconds; while it's portrayed like an evolution of the technique, it might also not be as effective.

All in all, this is just speculation one could use to claim Goku may have gotten ten times stronger. Bear in mind that if you go farther than that, there's also stuff that could be as easily used against the claim (i.e. #18, who either barely trained with Krillin or not trained at all, is apparently portrayed as being physically much stronger than the base Goku seen in the U7 arc). I have an easier time reconciling Goku's feats against Hit than #18 getting such an incredible power-up or lifting Tupper through other, unmentioned, means.

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Re: What about Saiyan beyond god/2 base theory now?

Post by lord turbo » Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:56 am

LowRyder2005 wrote:The burden of proof here is not on me. The material outright implies that in the ROF movie they couldn't transform into SSB unless they had their "god-like power"; that's a premise, not something I need to prove.
Yes it is, you made the claim the pamphlet mentioned when a saiyan with the power of SSJG transforms into SSJ they turn SSJB. Goku contradicts this back in BoGs already, whatever speculation you have afterwards is just that, speculation which can't be proven.
Well, what do you know, I had missed it. I convene with your interpretation, then.
Cool beans.
Eh, honestly I don't think this is really going anywhere. To me the techniques could differ like (say) a Final Flash and a Kamehameha/Kikoho/Kienzan do. All are ki attacks, but they have different properties or effects. In-universe, the Time Dimension used by Hit in the pseudo-filler arc looks more like Guldo's attack than Hit skipping seconds; while it's portrayed like an evolution of the technique, it might also not be as effective.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree on the time-skip then, no biggie.
All in all, this is just speculation one could use to claim Goku may have gotten ten times stronger. Bear in mind that if you go farther than that, there's also stuff that could be as easily used against the claim (i.e. #18, who either barely trained with Krillin or not trained at all, is apparently portrayed as being physically much stronger than the base Goku seen in the U7 arc). I have an easier time reconciling Goku's feats against Hit than #18 getting such an incredible power-up or lifting Tupper through other, unmentioned, means.
I really don't see how you can consider it speculation when its blatantly shown on screen... Also, there's nothing wrong with 18 (she didn't barely train with Kuririn) training and getting stronger from it in a short time since that's happened multiple times already already in this series before. Gohan himself goes from his original Ultimate Gohan level against Super Buu to rivaling SSJB Goku with Kaioken in a few hours of training.

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Re: What about Saiyan beyond god/2 base theory now?

Post by LowRyder2005 » Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:17 pm

Yes it is, you made the claim the pamphlet mentioned when a saiyan with the power of SSJG transforms into SSJ they turn SSJB. Goku contradicts this back in BoGs already, whatever speculation you have afterwards is just that, speculation which can't be proven.
... Which happens before ROF, before Goku trains with Whis, before Goku discovered Blue altogether, so no, I don't really get your point at all when you say I'm the one who needs to prove something.
There's literally a blank period between the movies and Goku is not shown as a Super Saiyan after he's demonstrated the capability of transforming into Blue in the movie continuity.

The only possibile inference is that, according to the pamphlet released in conjuction with the movie, x time after BOG, Goku can either turn into a Super Saiyan by turning his godly power off or he can't; the statement acting as a premise doesn't create contradictions. And if its only logical consequence is that something should've happened between the movies (or more precisely between the time Goku powers down from Super Saiyan and ROF), we do not have a "contradiction" either. Something not clarified is very obviously not one by default.

Even if we wanted to look at this in what's not necessarily a "literal logical implication" type of thing, do you deem realistical that whoever wrote the pamphlet forgot about Goku using Super Saiyan at the end of the previous movie? I'll also stress again that Goku states that Super Saiyan Blue is the end result of "going Super Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God", the pamphlet has no intention of being particularly original or informative as much as it wants to parrot his words.
I really don't see how you can consider it speculation when its blatantly shown on screen... Also, there's nothing wrong with 18 (she didn't barely train with Kuririn) training and getting stronger from it in a short time since that's happened multiple times already already in this series before.
I think I've already clarified my position: to me Hit's probably using a different technique, partly because I have a hard time thinking of #18 being intended to have that type of gains with her training with Krillin (in ROF she would have been most likely been treated as cannon fodder to First Form Freeza like everyone else). To you #18 becoming that much stronger looks believable because you evidently started off the premise Goku had to become over ten times stronger and it looked like other people did -- which is another way to look at it. I also heavily disagree on Gohan "rivaling" Super Saiyan Blue or similar contentions, like Roshi surpassing Mr. Buu (even if they're technically advertised or even hyped as such), for similar reasons.

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Re: What about Saiyan beyond god/2 base theory now?

Post by lord turbo » Sat Aug 19, 2017 4:24 pm

LowRyder2005 wrote:
Yes it is, you made the claim the pamphlet mentioned when a saiyan with the power of SSJG transforms into SSJ they turn SSJB. Goku contradicts this back in BoGs already, whatever speculation you have afterwards is just that, speculation which can't be proven.
... Which happens before ROF, before Goku trains with Whis, before Goku discovered Blue altogether, so no, I don't really get your point at all when you say I'm the one who needs to prove something.
Okay...and? The whole point of that pamphlet is it claiming "A Saiyan that has absorbed and contains the power of SSJG turns SSJ he automatically becomes Blue. That's exactly what it is saying and that's exactly what Goku did and had in BoGs, twice, yet he did not turn Blue, therefore, the pamphlet is meaningless not only to the movies, but to Super which shows a different process of attaining Blue.
Even if we wanted to look at this in what's not necessarily a "literal logical implication" type of thing, do you deem realistical that whoever wrote the pamphlet forgot about Goku using Super Saiyan at the end of the previous movie?
Considering these people are not hardcore fans like that analzye this series like a specimen under a microscope? Sure, its quite possible and has happened before with the whole "Hey you guys, Gohan not suppose to be SSJ in the BoGs movie, fix it".
I'll also stress again that Goku states that Super Saiyan Blue is the end result of "going Super Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God", the pamphlet has no intention of being particularly original or informative as much as it wants to parrot his words.
Which doesn't even make sense since taking it at face value he already went SSJ when he had the power of SSJG in BoGs/Super. Toriyama doesn't even check or remember his own lore which causes him to trip over his own feet from time to time.
I think I've already clarified my position: to me Hit's probably using a different technique
Lets agree to disagree with that since the technique itself is irrelevant to what I'm trying to get at since SSJB Goku exceeds the KKx10 level he was at back then against a stronger Hit. That's all the proof I need for a massive increase.
partly because I have a hard time thinking of #18 being intended to have that type of gains with her training with Krillin (in ROF she would have been most likely been treated as cannon fodder to First Form Freeza like everyone else).
I think everyone would have been treated as fodder against Freeza if they weren't Goku/Vegeta, even still, that doesn't prevent them from training and getting stronger like they've always done in this series.
To you #18 becoming that much stronger looks believable because you evidently started off the premise Goku had to become over ten times stronger and it looked like other people did -- which is another way to look at it.
Actually, I was working off the premise 18 was a lowly SSJ tier during the Buu Saga by being far weaker than kids in their SSJ states. Skip forward training with Kuririn and now she's far far stronger than base Goku who clowns Piccolo who earlier clowned SSJ2 Gohan and this is all from simply training/sparring with Kuririn it seems. Kind of the same silly premise of Roshi secretly training allowing him the strength to fight near equal to base Goku. Considering DBS doesn't give a flying squirrel about how increases are logically (not that they were ever particular logical to begin with in the whole Dragon Ball series) attained it doesn't bother me 18 sky rocketed from lowly Earth training. This is the same gal that dropped kicking SSJB Kamehameha out of Goku's hands not to long ago.
I also heavily disagree on Gohan "rivaling" Super Saiyan Blue or similar contentions, like Roshi surpassing Mr. Buu (even if they're technically advertised or even hyped as such), for similar reasons.
https://i.gyazo.com/168b103d0a6bee474f4 ... d49a6e.gif

I rest my case.

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Re: What about Saiyan beyond god/2 base theory now?

Post by LowRyder2005 » Sat Aug 19, 2017 5:24 pm

Okay...and? The whole point of that pamphlet is it claiming "A Saiyan that has absorbed and contains the power of SSJG turns SSJ he automatically becomes Blue. That's exactly what it is saying and that's exactly what Goku did and had in BoGs, twice, yet he did not turn Blue, therefore, the pamphlet is meaningless not only to the movies, but to Super which shows a different process of attaining Blue.
Like I said, the excerpt applies for sure to the Saiyans you see in ROF -- which are the Saiyans described as individuals who truly, undoubtedly "wield the power of a Super Saiyan God" and who, obviously, "can go Super Saiyan Blue".
Starting off the premise of what the pamphlet and ROF both state, the "Super Saiyan Goku with the power of a God" and the "Super Saiyan Goku with the power of a God (SSB)" you see in ROF cannot be logical equivalents. After all, it already makes sense when you think Goku can't even go Super Saiyan Blue in the movie.

Now, I can't really tell what kind of difference there is if not venturing through further speculation (probably something like Goku needing to fully master the power), but as I pointed out it's not something I need to prove. The pamphlet itself addressed it in claryfing they cannot be the same -- same arguably goes for the ROF movie. In short, Goku doesn't truly "have" the power of a god in BOG in the same capacity he does in ROF, where can therefore go Super Saiyan Blue.
SSJB Goku exceeds the KKx10 level he was at back then against a stronger Hit. That's all the proof I need for a massive increase.
... No, that's something you were aiming to prove, if anything. If your argument is that Goku escaped a technique with 1/10 of the power but you can't realistically prove that the variables here are the same it's nothing more than your conjecture, and you should really present it as your opinion.
I rest my case.
The narrator does say that. Then again, though, it's already not intended to be taken literally: when you stop and think about it, Goku and Gohan should not be truly "rivals" in power, as Goku's full power is enough to one-shot Gohan effortlessly. If the narrator doesn't intend they are "literal" rivals in power, it means Gohan matches some suppressed level of Goku -- which could or could not be inferior to his Super Saiyan Blue, for all we know.

If you want my personal opinion, I also believe it's the type of grandiose prose that doesn't aim as being completely accurate as much as it wants to engross the viewer, making it not necessarily reflective of true authorial intent. The narrator states, for one, that the team heading to the planet where the Tournament of Power will take place is comprised of the strongest in the universe: taken literally it would make Roshi stronger than Mr. Buu -- something which, like I pointed out before, sounds even more improbable to me and entirely unintended.
Goku also neglects to mention Gohan when he states that "he or Vegeta would stop Freeza" if necessary, when following off the statement Gohan should most likely be equal or superior to Vegeta. It might've slipped his mind, of course, but combined with the nature of his fight against Goku, it leads me to think he's really supposed to belong to an inferior tier, closer to the regular Super Saiyans whom Golden Freeza can easily dispose of.

I am a Type-Moon fan, and in one of the recent character polls the flagship character Saber is reported to be "the strongest Servant", when she's not even the "strongest" in terms of pure strength in her own visual novel according to the author. The "strongest" is basically a poetic licence, or not intended literally. Narration, or in general out-of-universe sources, are the biggest help when establishing things through a third, super partes, entity. It's not like they can't be purely ornamental or not necessarily literal ("the greatest battle", "the most fearsome foe", etc.) from time to time.

Again, those are nothing more than my two cents; there's definitely enough to make a case in favor of Gohan being stronger than, say, a Super Saiyan God.

P.S. By the way, I understand you might be prompted to focus on each of the statements to send your point across, but try to avoid that and limit yourself to a handful of relevant parts to elaborate upon your points; first off, it makes your post much bigger than necessary, and the community guidelines do not exactly welcome the one-lines back-n-forth as well (http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum-rules/).
Last edited by LowRyder2005 on Sat Aug 19, 2017 6:23 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: What about Saiyan beyond god/2 base theory now?

Post by Marlowe89 » Sat Aug 19, 2017 6:05 pm

Just going to chime in for a moment and say that Hit's parallel world ability isn't his Time-Skip at all (or at least it's not the same application that was used in their first battle). It's a completely separate technique that incorporates Hit's stored time accumulated from his own usage of the Time-Skip, as Vados clearly explains. We know this because the dialogue repeatedly outright states that they're separate abilities in Episode 71 -- Goku himself says that Hit's intangibility is something entirely different from what was used during the tournament.

Furthermore, there's absolutely no dialogue in either of these two episodes that states, implies, hints or remotely suggests that Goku explicitly grew ten times stronger since their last encounter. All he said was that the standard Time-Skip wouldn't work on him, a statement that Hit openly acknowledges despite not really knowing how much stronger Goku became. We already know he can use the ability on stronger opponents in the anime, so the common argument that Goku must have increased his natural power multiple times over really is nothing more than baseless speculation at its core and something I'm going to assume is derived primarily from wishful thinking on behalf of those who espouse the idea so insistently.

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Re: What about Saiyan beyond god/2 base theory now?

Post by lord turbo » Fri Sep 15, 2017 3:54 pm

Sorry for the long delay in response, this topic slipped my mind.
LowRyder2005 wrote:Like I said, the excerpt applies for sure to the Saiyans you see in ROF -- which are the Saiyans described as individuals who truly, undoubtedly "wield the power of a Super Saiyan God" and who, obviously, "can go Super Saiyan Blue".
Starting off the premise of what the pamphlet and ROF both state, the "Super Saiyan Goku with the power of a God" and the "Super Saiyan Goku with the power of a God (SSB)" you see in ROF cannot be logical equivalents. After all, it already makes sense when you think Goku can't even go Super Saiyan Blue in the movie.
Examing just the lines of the pamphlet itself, Goku is stated and shown to already be just this in BoGs so its either and inconsistency or oversight on their part, point remains the same though.
... No, that's something you were aiming to prove, if anything. If your argument is that Goku escaped a technique with 1/10 of the power but you can't realistically prove that the variables here are the same it's nothing more than your conjecture, and you should really present it as your opinion.
My point is that Goku fought on par with and overpowered a stronger Hit that he struggled against with SSJB+KKx10 during the U6 tournament, therefore, SSJB Goku > SSJB=KKx10 Goku from back then.
The narrator does say that. Then again, though, it's already not intended to be taken literally: when you stop and think about it, Goku and Gohan should not be truly "rivals" in power, as Goku's full power is enough to one-shot Gohan effortlessly. If the narrator doesn't intend they are "literal" rivals in power, it means Gohan matches some suppressed level of Goku -- which could or could not be inferior to his Super Saiyan Blue, for all we know.
I think context is the key here when looking at these things case by case. When they fought Goku was shown consistently as the inferior on all the way up until he used SSJB+KK. This seems evident by the fact Gohan is outright disappointed in Goku and tells him to get serious and use his full power after countering and punching SSJB Goku away like he's a mere nuisance. Him getting KOed doesn't contradict that anymore than Freeza being KOed by SSJB Goku prevents him from being equal to Goku which is stated in the episode (Even though Goku has Kaioken). Official supplement also mentions Freeza = Goku in power with DBS super writer mentioning that Goku, Gohan, 17, and Freeza are in the same tier with each other even though Goku technically has Kaioken to fall back on when these comparisons are made.

Also, rival does not necessary meant same level, it can also mean almost at that level or close enough to be a challenge/hold your own. Personally, It looks like Gohan is above SSJB Goku, but somewhat inferior to SSJB Kaioken Goku and the range between SSJB Goku and non-Kaioken SSJB Goku is only 2x so there's enough room in there to put Gohan in the middle.
P.S. By the way, I understand you might be prompted to focus on each of the statements to send your point across, but try to avoid that and limit yourself to a handful of relevant parts to elaborate upon your points; first off, it makes your post much bigger than necessary, and the community guidelines do not exactly welcome the one-lines back-n-forth as well (http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum-rules/).
No problem, will take it into consideration in the future.
Marlowe89 wrote:Just going to chime in for a moment and say that Hit's parallel world ability isn't his Time-Skip at all (or at least it's not the same application that was used in their first battle). It's a completely separate technique that incorporates Hit's stored time accumulated from his own usage of the Time-Skip, as Vados clearly explains. We know this because the dialogue repeatedly outright states that they're separate abilities in Episode 71 -- Goku himself says that Hit's intangibility is something entirely different from what was used during the tournament.
The only thing Vados explains is the mechanics behind time-skip (something we never got in the U6 tournament), not that his usage of it (storing time) is different than what it was before, that's speculation on your part. Also, his phasing ability is something separate from his time-skip ability which is not what I'm arguing about.
Furthermore, there's absolutely no dialogue in either of these two episodes that states, implies, hints or remotely suggests that Goku explicitly grew ten times stronger since their last encounter.
Besides the simple fact Goku is keeping up, fighting on par with, and eventually overpowers a stronger Hit that SSJB=KKx10 Goku struggled against back then during the U6 tournament? I'm going to respectfully disagree with you on that.

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Re: What about Saiyan beyond god/2 base theory now?

Post by ankokudaishogun » Fri Sep 15, 2017 4:56 pm

Kishido wrote:So why is there a Saiyan beyond god form in Heroes?
There is not.

"Saiyan Beyond God" is not the FORM. It's the ABILITY NAME.
When activated, the ability "Saiyan Beyond God" transforms Goku in Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku.
More specifically: the card shows Goku in normal form, as specified by the back of the card

So, at best, the Saiyan Beyond God is the Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.

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Re: What about Saiyan beyond god/2 base theory now?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Fri Sep 15, 2017 5:46 pm

ankokudaishogun wrote:
Kishido wrote:So why is there a Saiyan beyond god form in Heroes?
There is not.

"Saiyan Beyond God" is not the FORM. It's the ABILITY NAME.
When activated, the ability "Saiyan Beyond God" transforms Goku in Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku.
More specifically: the card shows Goku in normal form, as specified by the back of the card

So, at best, the Saiyan Beyond God is the Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.
Wrong. Base Goku literally transforms into base Goku, with literally no change to his appearance, an he was described as a "Saiyan who has surpassed God", which is where the "Saiyan beyond God" name comes from. Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is a different thing.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: What about Saiyan beyond god/2 base theory now?

Post by ankokudaishogun » Fri Sep 15, 2017 8:03 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
ankokudaishogun wrote:
Kishido wrote:So why is there a Saiyan beyond god form in Heroes?
There is not.

"Saiyan Beyond God" is not the FORM. It's the ABILITY NAME.
When activated, the ability "Saiyan Beyond God" transforms Goku in Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku.
More specifically: the card shows Goku in normal form, as specified by the back of the card

So, at best, the Saiyan Beyond God is the Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.
Wrong. Base Goku literally transforms into base Goku, with literally no change to his appearance, an he was described as a "Saiyan who has surpassed God", which is where the "Saiyan beyond God" name comes from. Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is a different thing.
in DBHeroes, you mean?

GDPJ-01, which has the Saiyan Beyond God skill, has Normal Goku transforming into Super Saiyan Blue.
https://youtu.be/uAvZAu2giDs?t=286

Also, in the DBH cardlist on the official website ALL the "Saiyan Beyond God" cards have the added description "劇場版『ドラゴンボールZ 復活の「F」』で覚醒した超サイヤ人ゴッド超サイヤ人の姿に変身するぞ!!" which translated in "Transform in the Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan from the Movie 『Dragon Ball Z Resurrection 「F」』"

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Re: What about Saiyan beyond god/2 base theory now?

Post by JazzMazz » Sat Sep 16, 2017 12:52 am

lord turbo wrote: Besides the simple fact Goku is keeping up, fighting on par with, and eventually overpowers a stronger Hit that SSJB=KKx10 Goku struggled against back then during the U6 tournament? I'm going to respectfully disagree with you on that.
Hit was inferior to regular SSB Goku in a straight fight.

In the universe 6 tournament, he only improved his time-skip, not his physical power. Even when Goku gets hit by the improved time-skip, is referring to how powered up that technique was, not exactly how much more powerful Hit was, this is evident when .

Hit was only able to fight Goku when he went SSBKKx10 because of his time-skip's constant improvement, which allowed him to deal more damage to vital areas.


Hit did get stronger by the second confrontation, as he was now Goku's physical equal in SSB.

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Re: What about Saiyan beyond god/2 base theory now?

Post by lord turbo » Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:21 am

JazzMazz wrote:
lord turbo wrote: In the universe 6 tournament, he only improved his time-skip, not his physical power. Even when Goku gets hit by the improved time-skip, is referring to how powered up that technique was, not exactly how much more powerful Hit was, this is evident when .

Hit was only able to fight Goku when he went SSBKKx10 because of his time-skip's constant improvement, which allowed him to deal more damage to vital areas.


Hit did get stronger by the second confrontation, as he was now Goku's physical equal in SSB.
He improved all stats, not just time-skip considering with just regular Kaioken Goku was too fast for Hit to follow, even when Goku ramped it up to 5x that (KKx10) he decimated Hit while already using time-skip (According to the manga it doesn't work on people stronger than Hit). When hit caught Goku in time-skip he yelled my time-skip is already ahead of you, this would make no sense if he was weaker than KKx10 (As Time-skip doesn't work on stronger people), nor would it magically allow Hit himself to move faster than people 10x his own speed, nor harm people 10x his own level, or take minor damage from people 10x his own level either. Also, during this same tournament Goku's KKx10's Kamehameha was stopped by Hit's Time-skip, while it was unable to stop and was overwhelmed by regular SSJB Goku's Kamehameha. Please keep in mind Hit adapted to the level of KKx10 SSJB Goku, yet regular SSJB Goku improved in mid battle to fight on par with Hit that was stronger than his U6 tournament self that adapt to the level of KKx10 SSJB Goku.

This would make sense if SSJB Goku wasn't at a similar level or above it to face this new and improved Hit.

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Re: What about Saiyan beyond god/2 base theory now?

Post by JazzMazz » Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:26 am

lord turbo wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:
lord turbo wrote: In the universe 6 tournament, he only improved his time-skip, not his physical power. Even when Goku gets hit by the improved time-skip, is referring to how powered up that technique was, not exactly how much more powerful Hit was, this is evident when .

Hit was only able to fight Goku when he went SSBKKx10 because of his time-skip's constant improvement, which allowed him to deal more damage to vital areas.


Hit did get stronger by the second confrontation, as he was now Goku's physical equal in SSB.
He improved all stats, not just time-skip considering with just regular Kaioken Goku was too fast for Hit to follow, even when Goku ramped it up to 5x that (KKx10) he decimated Hit while already using time-skip (According to the manga it doesn't work on people stronger than Hit). When hit caught Goku in time-skip he yelled my time-skip is already ahead of you, this would make no sense if he was weaker than KKx10 (As Time-skip doesn't work on stronger people), nor would it magically allow Hit himself to move faster than people 10x his own speed, nor harm people 10x his own level, or take minor damage from people 10x his own level either. Also, during this same tournament Goku's KKx10's Kamehameha was stopped by Hit's Time-skip, while it was unable to stop and was overwhelmed by regular SSJB Goku's Kamehameha.
The time-skip only working on stronger people is something you extrapolated from the manga, it doesn't apply to the anime and that still remains a plot hole in the anime because Goku's SSB was stronger than Hit at the start of the fight, yet the time-skip still worked then. Hit's able to hurt stronger opponents due to his time-skip allowing him to land blows in vital areas, it doesn't necessarily matter how strong they are, as long as he can land blows in those areas, he'll be able to do serious damage.

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Re: What about Saiyan beyond god/2 base theory now?

Post by lord turbo » Sat Sep 16, 2017 1:15 pm

JazzMazz wrote:The time-skip only working on stronger people is something you extrapolated from the manga, it doesn't apply to the anime and that still remains a plot hole in the anime because Goku's SSB was stronger than Hit at the start of the fight, yet the time-skip still worked then. Hit's able to hurt stronger opponents due to his time-skip allowing him to land blows in vital areas, it doesn't necessarily matter how strong they are, as long as he can land blows in those areas, he'll be able to do serious damage.
Which makes perfect sense, improving the duration of the time-skip would not prevent Goku from kicking the dog piss out of Hit like before unless Hit improved his own stats to make it possible to freeze Goku again. I can extrapolate because time-skip worked fined on Goku until he increased his power level, increasing his power level made the technique itself worthless until Hit improved himself to a level near Goku to make it valid again therefore we can conclude power level difference directly affect the effectiveness of time-skip. If Goku was stronger than Hit then time-skip wouldn't have worked on him, the only time time-skip stopped working was when Goku increased his power level above Hit's own level.

Also, the rule in DB is it doesn't matter where you land blows on someone if they are far beyond your level and 2x is the bare minimum to brick wall effect a weaker character, Hit is not damaging someone over 10 his own level just cause. Besides, this does not change the fact once Hit improved himself to KKx10 Goku he was able to stop Goku's Kamehameha and freeza it in place while SSJB Goku during his second rematch with a stronger Hit was too strong and outright overwhelmed and broke timeskip with a Kamehameha, something KKx10 Goku's Kamehameha could not do.

Dragon Ball follows simple abc logic, SSJB Goku during his rematch with a stronger Hit > Hit (U6 tournament) > or = KKx10 SSJB Goku.

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Re: What about Saiyan beyond god/2 base theory now?

Post by Tectorman » Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:32 pm

Hold on. IIRC, in the anime, Hit acted like he was powering up just to turn around and explicitly reveal that he doesn't have the ability to power up in that fashion, which I took to mean that improving the duration of his time-skip was the one single change Hit was able to make in the U6 fight, leaving all of his other stats the same from start to finish.

Yes, in the manga, he explicitly DOES power up (and this isn't later revealed to be fake-powering-up like in the anime), but that's not the anime.
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Re: What about Saiyan beyond god/2 base theory now?

Post by ankokudaishogun » Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:26 pm

IIRC Hit also improved his fighting technique over the battle

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Re: What about Saiyan beyond god/2 base theory now?

Post by TheMikado » Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:35 pm

ankokudaishogun wrote:IIRC Hit also improved his fighting technique over the battle
Technique, not power.

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Re: What about Saiyan beyond god/2 base theory now?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:08 pm

ankokudaishogun wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
ankokudaishogun wrote: There is not.

"Saiyan Beyond God" is not the FORM. It's the ABILITY NAME.
When activated, the ability "Saiyan Beyond God" transforms Goku in Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku.
More specifically: the card shows Goku in normal form, as specified by the back of the card

So, at best, the Saiyan Beyond God is the Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.
Wrong. Base Goku literally transforms into base Goku, with literally no change to his appearance, an he was described as a "Saiyan who has surpassed God", which is where the "Saiyan beyond God" name comes from. Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is a different thing.
in DBHeroes, you mean?

GDPJ-01, which has the Saiyan Beyond God skill, has Normal Goku transforming into Super Saiyan Blue.
https://youtu.be/uAvZAu2giDs?t=286

Also, in the DBH cardlist on the official website ALL the "Saiyan Beyond God" cards have the added description "劇場版『ドラゴンボールZ 復活の「F」』で覚醒した超サイヤ人ゴッド超サイヤ人の姿に変身するぞ!!" which translated in "Transform in the Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan from the Movie 『Dragon Ball Z Resurrection 「F」』"
The card has a special transformation mechanic. Before the release of the movie, and before the reveal of Super Saiyan Blue, base Goku was transforming into Saiyan beyond God Goku, which is base Goku with the power of God. After the release of the movie, base Goku transforms into Super Saiyan Blue. The SbG form was exclusive to this card, and it is now no longer available to the game.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: What about Saiyan beyond god/2 base theory now?

Post by ankokudaishogun » Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:47 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote: The card has a special transformation mechanic. Before the release of the movie, and before the reveal of Super Saiyan Blue, base Goku was transforming into Saiyan beyond God Goku, which is base Goku with the power of God. After the release of the movie, base Goku transforms into Super Saiyan Blue. The SbG form was exclusive to this card, and it is now no longer available to the game.
Can you point me a source about this?

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Re: What about Saiyan beyond god/2 base theory now?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Mon Sep 25, 2017 5:45 pm

ankokudaishogun wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote: The card has a special transformation mechanic. Before the release of the movie, and before the reveal of Super Saiyan Blue, base Goku was transforming into Saiyan beyond God Goku, which is base Goku with the power of God. After the release of the movie, base Goku transforms into Super Saiyan Blue. The SbG form was exclusive to this card, and it is now no longer available to the game.
Can you point me a source about this?
There was a YouTube video of base Goku transforming into base Goku, but I think it's gone now, so all I have is this. The base Goku in the picture is the transformed Goku.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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