Here are all the attributes exclusive to Super Saiyan God *Spoilers*

[Lord Beerus]

At this stage, the only reason I'd say that Super Saiyan God is being used again is because it's far less draining on stamina compared to Super Saiyan Blue. And I think the only reason it's being used now is because it took a long ass time for Goku to re-access the Super Saiyan God transformation in its fully capacity beyond using it in brief short bursts and using it as a bridge to go into Super Saiyan Blue.

[Yomi]

I think the getting stronger part, was just a Saiyan thing, but everything else is on point.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Vegeta says the SSB is a '' Saiyajin with the power of Super Saiyan God turning into SSJ ''

Goku says the same thing when he calls it, in no ambiguous terms, "the Super Saiyan form of a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God". But a "Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God" is hardly the same thing as Super Saiyan God itself, as numerous materials repeatedly demonstrate. I've spoken about that extensively here and here; in addition to stuff such as Goku's original description and Dokkan Battle, the RoF manga also quite plainly shows us what a "Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God" would look like -- it's just Goku with his base appearance.

Super Saiyan Blue was intended to be the Super Saiyan level of that, thus it's rather unlikely for Blue to be a direct continuation of Super Saiyan God itself. Even in the DBS manga, Zamasu infers a Super Saiyan's hair to change color after being powered up to the point of surpassing SSG which implies they're separate. Besides, if it was as simple as a Super Saiyan God turning Super Saiyan the term wouldn't have been "Suupaa Saiya-jin Goddo no pawaa wo motta Saiya-jin", which colloquially describes a normal Saiyan using SSG's power. They're clearly distinct forms just as their designs imply, even if SSB is the stronger of the two.

Moreover, here's some additional proof that Blue is the Super Saiyan form of Saiyans that learned to use the power of SSG without changing form:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

If you are bringing game descriptions, then I can also show you the description of Goku and Vegeta SSGSS

[spoiler][/spoiler]

It is being said that SSGSS is when an SSG is transformed into SSJ. So we can not say that the "power of the Super Saiyan God" is not referring to transformation, just because some materials imply something else.

About Toriyama's statement in "Volume F", it is not possible to know if this is still valid. After all, we never saw in the anime, Goku using the divine Ki without being transformed (as it seems to understand in this Volume).

Therefore, this talk of "Saiyajin with the power of the SSG transforming into SSJ" may be meaning "SSG becoming SSJ"

was he referring to the SSG level? Obviously he would be talking about the transformation, Vegeta would need it to gain the power of SSG

[Marlowe89]

If you are bringing game descriptions, then I can also show you the description of Goku and Vegeta SSGSS

I'm not just bringing game descriptions, I'm bringing the Japanese descriptions of numerous supplementary materials ranging from games to manga tie-ins to art pamphlets to the correct translation of Goku's dialogue in RoF/Super and what it insinuates.

The image you're posting looks like the Western version of the game. I'm gonna need the original Japanese text and its translation, not something that could have been erroneously localized.

After all, we never saw in the anime, Goku using the divine Ki without being transformed (as it seems to understand in this Volume).

But we explicitly saw exactly that in Episode 20 and 22. Plus, Goku's dialogue in Episode 25 confirms it -- "Suupaa Saiya-jin Goddo no pawaa wo motta Saiya-jin" describes a Saiyan tapping into the power of SSG, not the form itself.

Obviously he would be talking about the transformation, Vegeta would need it to gain the power of SSG

No, obviously he's just referring to its power because that's what Vegeta wants. He doesn't care about some temporary form, he cares about obtaining its strength for his own personal use. The dialogue there doesn't even remotely imply that "a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God" is the same as a Super Saiyan God -- they're two completely different things, as countless supplementary materials clearly and unambiguously demonstrate.

[ekrolo2]

I would like this proposed speed boost to be a thing that people are throwing around. It would make Vegeta's technique of flipping between God & Blue on the fly a lot more sensible if God, on top of better energy conservation, gave him better speed & reflexes with which to dodge blows with.

[MKJ]

If you are bringing game descriptions, then I can also show you the description of Goku and Vegeta SSGSS

I'm not just bringing game descriptions, I'm bringing the Japanese descriptions of numerous supplementary materials ranging from games to manga tie-ins to art pamphlets to the correct translation of Goku's dialogue in RoF/Super and what it insinuates.

The image you're posting looks like the Western version of the game. I'm gonna need the original Japanese text and its translation, not something that could have been erroneously localized.

After all, we never saw in the anime, Goku using the divine Ki without being transformed (as it seems to understand in this Volume).

But we explicitly saw exactly that in Episode 20 and 22. Plus, Goku's dialogue in Episode 25 confirms it -- "Suupaa Saiya-jin Goddo no pawaa wo motta Saiya-jin" describes a Saiyan tapping into the power of SSG, not the form itself.

Obviously he would be talking about the transformation, Vegeta would need it to gain the power of SSG

No, obviously he's just referring to its power because that's what Vegeta wants. He doesn't care about some temporary form, he cares about obtaining its strength for his own personal use. The dialogue there doesn't even remotely imply that "a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God" is the same as a Super Saiyan God -- they're two completely different things, as countless supplementary materials clearly and unambiguously demonstrate.

I like your line of thought. It will be interesting to see if this entire journey simply gets him back to ssg and ssb is no longer needed because ssg is the true form or at least the last stepping stone to the final form. I would love that. IMO there has been a gradual progression of tapping into the power a ssg that they can only best express through ssb. I think the BOG ssg was only a glimpse which is why up to this point we perceive ssb as being stronger. Just my thoughts. I could be way off.

[mikey4111]

I don't get how this can still be a from when Beerus already stated that the power was completely integrated into Goku after it wore off.

[MKJ]

I don't get how this can still be a from when Beerus already stated that the power was completely integrated into Goku after it wore off.

The key part of that statement is that the power was integrated. It doesn't necessarily mean the whole form. Plus I view that "integrated power" as a seed that has been planted, so that one day the true form will manifest. I don't think that he immediately had access and/or control of all of that power. It is a process of growth which is what we have been viewing this whole time without any real explanation. Hopefully we find out this week. I'm curious as to what Whis and/or Beerus have to say when they see it. They may provide the explanation.

[mikey4111]

I don't get how this can still be a from when Beerus already stated that the power was completely integrated into Goku after it wore off.

The key part of that statement is that the power was integrated. It doesn't necessarily mean the whole form. Plus I view that "integrated power" as a seed that has been planted, so that one day the true form will manifest. I don't think that he immediately had access and/or control of all of that power. It is a process of growth which is what we have been viewing this whole time without any real explanation. Hopefully we find out this week. I'm curious as to what Whis and/or Beerus have to say when they see it. They may provide the explanation.

Goku said, "I don't feel like I've gotten the least bit weaker". So he had all the power he had when he first went SSG.

[MKJ]

I don't get how this can still be a from when Beerus already stated that the power was completely integrated into Goku after it wore off.

The key part of that statement is that the power was integrated. It doesn't necessarily mean the whole form. Plus I view that "integrated power" as a seed that has been planted, so that one day the true form will manifest. I don't think that he immediately had access and/or control of all of that power. It is a process of growth which is what we have been viewing this whole time without any real explanation. Hopefully we find out this week. I'm curious as to what Whis and/or Beerus have to say when they see it. They may provide the explanation.

Goku said, "I don't feel like I've gotten the least bit weaker". So he had all the power he had when he first went SSG.

Was that the US dub or on crunchyroll with the sub titles? I do not remember that statement at all although it has been a while since I have seen any of that. I never viewed Goku as having the full power of ssg vs beerus once it wore off. Obviously this is all up to interpretation based on translation from one language to another which is not always easy. A correct translation which we consistently get from the translators (thanks by the way for all that you do if you read this) does not always hold all of the meaning implied by the original language no matter how perfectly it is translated. I can see why you view it the way that you do and you may be right. My view is that there was part of the ssg flame left in him still burning for the rest of that fight and when that fight was over he had established a relationship with that power which at some point burned out. However he could now fan the flame for lack of a better term until it once again burns full time which would mark the return of ssg. Just my head cannon.

[mikey4111]

The key part of that statement is that the power was integrated. It doesn't necessarily mean the whole form. Plus I view that "integrated power" as a seed that has been planted, so that one day the true form will manifest. I don't think that he immediately had access and/or control of all of that power. It is a process of growth which is what we have been viewing this whole time without any real explanation. Hopefully we find out this week. I'm curious as to what Whis and/or Beerus have to say when they see it. They may provide the explanation.

Goku said, "I don't feel like I've gotten the least bit weaker". So he had all the power he had when he first went SSG.

Was that the US dub or on crunchyroll with the sub titles? I do not remember that statement at all although it has been a while since I have seen any of that. I never viewed Goku as having the full power of ssg vs beerus once it wore off. Obviously this is all up to interpretation based on translation from one language to another which is not always easy. A correct translation which we consistently get from the translators (thanks by the way for all that you do if you read this) does not always hold all of the meaning implied by the original language no matter how perfectly it is translated. I can see why you view it the way that you do and you may be right. My view is that there was part of the ssg flame left in him still burning for the rest of that fight and when that fight was over he had established a relationship with that power which at some point burned out. However he could now fan the flame for lack of a better term until it once again burns full time which would mark the return of ssg. Just my head cannon.

Simmons translations.

[TheSaiyanGod]

If you are bringing game descriptions, then I can also show you the description of Goku and Vegeta SSGSS

I'm not just bringing game descriptions, I'm bringing the Japanese descriptions of numerous supplementary materials ranging from games to manga tie-ins to art pamphlets to the correct translation of Goku's dialogue in RoF/Super and what it insinuates.

The image you're posting looks like the Western version of the game. I'm gonna need the original Japanese text and its translation, not something that could have been erroneously localized.

After all, we never saw in the anime, Goku using the divine Ki without being transformed (as it seems to understand in this Volume).

But we explicitly saw exactly that in Episode 20 and 22. Plus, Goku's dialogue in Episode 25 confirms it -- "Suupaa Saiya-jin Goddo no pawaa wo motta Saiya-jin" describes a Saiyan tapping into the power of SSG, not the form itself.

Obviously he would be talking about the transformation, Vegeta would need it to gain the power of SSG

No, obviously he's just referring to its power because that's what Vegeta wants. He doesn't care about some temporary form, he cares about obtaining its strength for his own personal use. The dialogue there doesn't even remotely imply that "a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God" is the same as a Super Saiyan God -- they're two completely different things, as countless supplementary materials clearly and unambiguously demonstrate.

And several of these '' numerous complementary materials '' are not explicit.
We can not say that this '' Saiyajin with SSG power '' is not referring to the SSG transformation itself.

How would Goku and Vegeta use the power of the SSG without using this transformation?

In episode 98, the narrator refers to Super Saiyajin Blue as '' Buru no Chikara ''.

Since Goku literally used the transformation to escape Nink from U4.

Why could not this "Saiyajin with SSG power" be the transformation?

And when Goku freely uses the divine Ki without becoming?
Is your Ki not felt by humans doing this?

It would be the same as considering the theory of '' Beyond God ''

[TheSaiyanGod]

If you are bringing game descriptions, then I can also show you the description of Goku and Vegeta SSGSS

I'm not just bringing game descriptions, I'm bringing the Japanese descriptions of numerous supplementary materials ranging from games to manga tie-ins to art pamphlets to the correct translation of Goku's dialogue in RoF/Super and what it insinuates.

The image you're posting looks like the Western version of the game. I'm gonna need the original Japanese text and its translation, not something that could have been erroneously localized.

After all, we never saw in the anime, Goku using the divine Ki without being transformed (as it seems to understand in this Volume).

But we explicitly saw exactly that in Episode 20 and 22. Plus, Goku's dialogue in Episode 25 confirms it -- "Suupaa Saiya-jin Goddo no pawaa wo motta Saiya-jin" describes a Saiyan tapping into the power of SSG, not the form itself.

Obviously he would be talking about the transformation, Vegeta would need it to gain the power of SSG

No, obviously he's just referring to its power because that's what Vegeta wants. He doesn't care about some temporary form, he cares about obtaining its strength for his own personal use. The dialogue there doesn't even remotely imply that "a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God" is the same as a Super Saiyan God -- they're two completely different things, as countless supplementary materials clearly and unambiguously demonstrate.

I like your line of thought. It will be interesting to see if this entire journey simply gets him back to ssg and ssb is no longer needed because ssg is the true form or at least the last stepping stone to the final form. I would love that. IMO there has been a gradual progression of tapping into the power a ssg that they can only best express through ssb. I think the BOG ssg was only a glimpse which is why up to this point we perceive ssb as being stronger. Just my thoughts. I could be way off.

The power of Super Saiyajin God is the same as the Super Saiyan Blue.

Why would this "new form" use SSG, which is weaker?
Like I said, SSB has the same Ki.

I do not understand who thinks that SSB is weaker than SSG, this has already been clarified in all possible media

[Marlowe89]

And several of these '' numerous complementary materials '' are not explicit.
We can not say that this '' Saiyajin with SSG power '' is not referring to the SSG transformation itself.

They're as explicit as explicit can get, and yes, we can in fact say that because that's exactly what the materials plainly show. There's no need to be in denial over this.

If you were to argue that Blue is stronger than God, I'd agree with that, but nothing in the franchise suggests those two forms are connected in the way you're suggesting them to be. That's really all there is to it.

[BWri]

Just look at how cool this shot is of him.



It truly is a God.

Needs aura. That's the only thing I dislike about the new forms, without the aura they look kinda goofy. But SSG has grown on me. Absence makes the heart grow fonder, I suppose.

[TheSaiyanGod]

And several of these '' numerous complementary materials '' are not explicit.
We can not say that this '' Saiyajin with SSG power '' is not referring to the SSG transformation itself.

They're as explicit as explicit can get, and yes, we can in fact say that because that's exactly what the materials plainly show. There's no need to be in denial over this.

If you were to argue that Blue is stronger than God, I'd agree with that, but nothing in the franchise suggests those two forms are connected in the way you're suggesting them to be. That's really all there is to it.

This is explicitly stated only in Volume F.

And we do not even know if this is still being taken into account (or do you believe in the two-base theory or Saiyan Beyond God?)

There is nothing to prevent this '' Saiyan with the power of an SSG '' from being SSG transformation.

In the case of the power of SSG and SSB, this is a fact that should not even be disputed, since the launch of RoF in 2015 this has already become clear

[Marlowe89]

This is explicitly stated only in Volume F.

It's explicitly stated in the art pamphlet, explcitly shown in the RoF tie-in manga by Toyotaro, explicitly stated and shown in Dokkan Battle, and frequently alluded to in Super.

My whole original point here is that Blue being stronger than God (which, again, I agree with) doesn't presuppose that God is beholden to Blue, especially considering the facts at hand. Whether you like it or not, the writers absolutely have the creative freedom to bestow Super Saiyan God with unique traits/benefits/advantages that Super Saiyan Blue might not have if they want. There's nothing wrong with that, and if they chose to implement it into the story there's certainly nothing contradicting it because they're distinct forms anyway.

(or do you believe in the two-base theory or Saiyan Beyond God?)

I've clarified my thoughts on that here. If you take issue with that viewpoint, I suggest you take it to the relevant thread instead of this one.

[TheSaiyanGod]

This is explicitly stated only in Volume F.

It's explicitly stated in the art pamphlet, explcitly shown in the RoF tie-in manga by Toyotaro, explicitly stated and shown in Dokkan Battle, and frequently alluded to in Super.

My whole original point here is that Blue being stronger than God (which, again, I agree with) doesn't presuppose that God is beholden to Blue, especially considering the facts at hand. Whether you like it or not, the writers absolutely have the creative freedom to bestow Super Saiyan God with unique traits/benefits/advantages that Super Saiyan Blue might not have if they want. There's nothing wrong with that, and if they chose to implement it into the story there's certainly nothing contradicting it because they're distinct forms anyway.

(or do you believe in the two-base theory or Saiyan Beyond God?)

I've clarified my thoughts on that here. If you take issue with that viewpoint, I suggest you take it to the relevant thread instead of this one.

Considering the DBS manga, you really CAN NOT mention that the SSG has no connection with the SSB, since Goku himself claimed to be a predecessor of Blue.
If Goku and Vegeta can turn into SSG in manga, then what is the logic of SSB being a form of a Saiyan with SSG power (but still in base form)?

I again say that these old and official statements are not necessarily valid now (Toriyama already said that Goku would no longer use SSJ2 and 3, he said that he would not need to become SSG again, for example), so Anime has nothing explicit about SSG not being the basis of SSB.
Maybe we'll know on EP 104.

And just for you would be logical if the writers implemented unique abilities to the SSG, after all, for you this is not a form connected to the SSB (even though the SSB also uses the power of the SSG and also has to have the same characteristics).
But yes, they could add if they wished.

[GodVegetto91]

Regarding Goku's new Form..

There are two ways Goku can take:
1. Either he mixes SSJ Blue with Kaioken to take on a new Form (either Purple or Red).

2. Or Goku leaves Kaioken and SSJ Blue behind and focuses on Super Saiyan God instead. In order to become a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. (No not the blue one, but the red one). I.e. The Super Saiyan Version of Super Saiyan God! (Remember that the Super Saiyan God state was just Base Goku). If he becomes a Super Saiyan while already transformed as a Super Saiyan God then we can finally get a True Super Saiyan God this time, i.e. a RED Super Saiyan! And then have him gain a 50 times multiplier over the current Super Saiyan God.

[Marlowe89]

Considering the DBS manga, you really CAN NOT mention that the SSG has no connection with the SSB, since Goku himself claimed to be a predecessor of Blue.
If Goku and Vegeta can turn into SSG in manga, then what is the logic of SSB being a form of a Saiyan with SSG power (but still in base form)?

I never said that the forms have no connection at all. Obviously, God is a predecessor in the sense that its power leads to unlocking Blue. It's a level between SS3 and SSB, but not necessarily by manner of forms stacking on top of each other like in the traditional way. That was never implied to be the case for either of those forms.

If anything, the DBS manga is perfectly consistent with the fact that they're not directly connected in the way you're making them out to be. Black powered up in his ordinary Super Saiyan state and then Zamasu specifically mentioned that his hair color changed because he surpassed Super Saiyan God in that form (with yellow changing to blue for mortals and to pink for gods) which in turn would suggest Blue to be an alternate, "godly" version of the first Super Saiyan stage. Additionally in Episode 20, both Goku and Vegeta were shown being exposed to the aura of Blue while in their base forms -- Goku was also briefly shown with his golden Super Saiyan aura just before transforming into Blue for the first time in Episode 25.

SSB was stated to have the power (i.e. strength) of SSG, but at absolutely no point was it ever mentioned to possess all the same qualities and attributes SSG was said/shown to have. You're the only one claiming that the writers suddenly changed the nature of Blue without clarifying how or why, but that idea hasn't been substantiated in the slightest.