Super Episode 103 (13 August 2017)

[Cetra]

(unlike Goku and Vegeta who can't seem to get any stronger)

What? You know Goku is the guy with the weird spikey hair and Vegeta the one with the black flame hair? They get stronger all the time.

[Taidow]

I thought this episode was fine.

17 was such a troll and his current situation is similar to Goku's at the Zeno Exhibition Match. They both got amused by being considered evil. I like what a team player he is being with Goku. He's probably the closest thing he has as a friend which is weird when you think about 17's origin story.

U2's Yardrat is being used well and even got a knockout. It seems like Ribrianne and Rozie have crushes on him.

Piccolo got a knockout which was nice. He was the last one on U7 to get one.

Gohan got two knockouts which was also very much needed. I've seen a few people complain that Gohan didn't have an outburst at the Zenos after erasing U10. That would be a Kid Gohan thing to do, not Adult Gohan. He can't put himself in a situation like that because he has to fight for Videl and Pan. While it was a wake-up call when he saw the locket, U7's survival is more important to Gohan. Sacrifices have to be made and Gohan understands that. That's why I don't agree with the people who wanted a Gohan emotional breakdown or outburst to happen.

[KaioChris]

Really enjoyed this episode. The animation seemed a bit weird at times but wasn't nearly enough to room an episode.

1. I'm really liking the way they are going with 17. Glad to have him back.
2. Having teammates look out for each other is a really nice touch. Although does make me wonder what Goku was going to do had 17 not showed up.
3. Piccolo's fight didn't last too long but that's ok, it was great to see Hellzone Grenade again.
4.Obuni had a nice technique, wish that fight would have lasted longer and not felt so rushed. The scene with the locket was a great touch (I really can't see why people are complaining about it) they can't dedicate an entire episode to random members and giving them a backstory. That was perfect in my opinion.

On another note Gohan's reaction with the clenching fist really got me thinking... Ever since the end of the U6 tournament it seems like they have been building to a conflict between mortals and God's. One specific scene that sticks out to me is when Goku and Hit are fighting and Beerus and Champa start arguing. Hit says something to Goku along the lines of "I guess we are just pawns in their game" and Goku replies "For now.."

Maybe I'm looking too much into it but I just get the feeling that a conflict of that nature is coming.

[GodVegetto91]

(unlike Goku and Vegeta who can't seem to get any stronger)

What? You know Goku is the guy with the weird spikey hair and Vegeta the one with the black flame hair? They get stronger all the time.

Not in the way Gohan does. Goku and Vegeta rely on transformations and very long and special training sequences. They don't get stronger on the spot. In fact, they will tire out if they use their all in a battle. Gohan on the other hand trained for nearly a full day (which to me, normally seems to offer very few rest and very much training in a short time/1 day). Rather than becoming weaker near the end of the day, (losing all your energy/tiring out) Gohan actually became STRONGER! trainint for a full day made him GOD LEVEL he went from being an Ant to a Dinosaur in less than a day! He didn't get any weaker at all from using up all of his energy. Goku and Vegeta power up veeeerrryy slowlyyyy.

[Noah]

Do fans who enjoy these type of episodes just lower their standards that much?
Goku should've been able to take that magical girl out within seconds, similar to how he handles enemies in the movies. Did 17 really need to protect Goku from those weak Ki blasts (Copied Hellzone Grenade?) All to create stupid illogical tension?

Pretty much, for me it was a good episode but not impressive, I don't how they tend to portray Goku as a reckless person (more than usual) in this arc, it ruins his character.

How long do they plan on using this flaw? shouldn't he have learned from RF by now? Goku for some reason is being written like an amature who's never fought before.

So, we've been through 103 episodes and you only realized that now?

Finally, the best Goku form is back next episode

SSJ4 doesn't exist in Super continuity.

[Asura]

I can't believe Dyspo...

I don't know if this is a spoiler or if it's just your prediction for what will happen, but if it is a spoiler please refrain from talking about spoilers in the episode discussion threads in the future, thanks.

[Draconic]

Ok, time for some actual thoughts. On second viewing I enjoyed this episode a lot more than at first, but it's still a step down from last week. Luckly, a near perfect second half kept the streak of good episodes going, else this might have been the first stinker of the Tournament.

I was really expecting more out of the teased encounter between Goky and Jimizu. Would have hoped for an actual explanation about what an Yardratian is doing in U2, cause that is the only thing I find interesting about his inclusion. Them trying to make him look cool did nothing for me, especially at the expense of the one character from U10 I actually liked the design of and looked forward to see.

Gohan vs Botamo is a mixed bag. I quite like the idea of using uppercuts to lift him up in order for him to lose his ground and able to be pushed, but the way the scene was handled left a lot to be desired. The only good thing about it was the Goku/Piccolo interaction. Botmao really has plagued every fight he was in, outside of when he got to play off Magetta.

Another mediocre part was the Goku vs Rozie fight. The cut of her being knocked out is a highlight of the episode and one of the more creative pieces of action in this arc, but it couldn't save what is, otherwise, a bunch of reused footage and another well designed enemy with cool abillities getting pretty wasted by pitting her against Goku right of the bat.

It wasn't all bad, though, as Android 17 manages to entertain again this episode, showcasing his chill demeanor this time by being a bit more playful and not as stuck up. A nice change of pace and a continuation of the parody about Magical Girl tropes. The fight between him and Ribrianne is mediocre, but those interactions make up for it enough for me to say that it served as the saving grace of the first half.

The second half, however, is where this episode truly shines and provides the best piece of storytelling in this entire arc. Everything from the writing, animation, tone and atmosphere is top notch.

I'll preface everything with the Piccolo vs Rubalt stuff, which provides a great moment for the green man that was surely needed after all this time. It's not the main course, it's not long, but everything about it is very satisfying. Tate's art is beautiful and provided more great Piccolo shots in this one half than probably the whole show up to now, so when I have some time I really need to grab some screenshots.
While I dislike Rubalt's design (to put it mildly), I'm not going to lie, the movement and art made me appreciate it so much more. The dreadlocks flowing trough the air during the action cut and that shot of him kocked out after recieving Piccolo's attack in full were beautiful and I am glad he was the one chosen for elimination this episode.

However, the Obni vs Gohan stuff is the uncontestable high point of probably the whole tournament up to now.
Again, Obni's design is not one I'm fond of at all, but he makes up for it so much in personality and abillity that I can't help but love him. A true proof that you don't need to have ten episodes in advance to introduce someone, as his connection to Gohan was demonstrated superbly; his special technique was explaind concise then put to great use without much fanfare; and his character shined trough by being pitted against the right opponent. The only other time this even came close to being replicated was with Basil in episode 97. Seems this kind of quality is only reserved for characters who will quickly get eliminated after, at least until now, which is sad.

The fight itself is superb (it speaks for itself so I won't go into much detail) and Gohan also gets to shine and it truly feels like an earned win, again, due to how well his enemy was constructed.
His remorse at the erasure of U10 was amazingly handled, not just from the stand point of Gohan's character, but as a different way to look at such an event after the horror it was first met with at U9's time in order to keep it as something special and as a much needed piece of drama, as until now no character who eliminated someone was/would be able to deliver it.

Minor comments:
- Obni's family designs are kinda shit;
- Gohan's feelings for U10 are kinda like a stand in for the audience's towards Gowasu;
- I don't mind reusing the spectator reaction shots;

Next episode makes me feel so conflicted. On one hand there's Goku and Hit teaming up, my favorite form coming back and some interesting abillities will be showcased trough the two Pride Troopers; but on the other hand I hope Super Saiyan God's return is done justice, though I have the bad feeling it won't.

[TKA]

They re-used the same Helles animation. How weird.

They keep re-using the Android Barrier and expect us to be surprised when 17 does it. How weird.

I feel like the entirety of the first third of this episode could've been included in the last one had they cut down on the re-used animation, which ate up a lot of time. In terms of animation work and direction, this is the worst Super has been since it found its footing, I'm sure.

As an aside, this episode finally got 17's character right. It's the first time since he appeared in Super that they've gotten him right. Remember that 17 is the same guy that wanted to steal a van and drive to Goku because it'd be more fun than just flying there. Remember that even as a fully genocidal and evil monster, he's still the guy that walked around with a gun because shooting people with that is more fun. 17 isn't a "stoic badass" type, despite his design saying he should be. He's fun-loving and goofy.

------------------

Rest of the episode was meh, but at least they gave the Universe 10 guy a unique power. Part of the problem with this arc is how many characters look like they exist just to be knocked out as fodder, rather than being full-fledged, fully-realized characters. It seriously diminishes the drama when some characters' designs are super detailed (the ones that will stick around), and some look like the kind of shit you'd find on deviantart (the ones who won't stick around).

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If they're bringing back the original Super Saiyan God, then there's no excuse for them to not have done what the manga did with the form during the previous two arcs. I hate being "that" guy, but Anime Super is so wishy-washy in how it handles its writing. They can't even keep how SSGSS works consistent.

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Well that's enough complaining for one month.

[Asura]

In the manga, wasn't SSG used during Goku's fight against Hit because it took up a lot less stamina? Or he could move faster or something?

The anime and the manga are different, but would it really be too far-fetched to guess they might just take from the manga here and apply it to the form? There must be some unique reason as to why Goku is using that form that probably has something to do with a unique power that the enemy has.

Also got caught up reading the thread and was surprised at people's reactions towards two things:

1. A few people thought Gohan's reaction to Obuni's locket was not very good and would have preferred if he exploded in a fit of rage cursing all the gods and the Zenos.
2. A few people thought that Goku should have ended his fight early and effortlessly KOed Rozie and then probably Ribrianne

For #1: Why? Why would you want that? No offense but that sounds like a horrendous idea and I'm extremely glad they did not go this route. Gohan's silence and his reaction of what looks like anger, disturbance, and disgust is absolutely all you need in that scene. In my opinion it wasn't that powerful of a scene to begin with because Obuni was not all that fleshed out and as a result the locket didn't have as powerful as a reaction that it should have gotten from us, the audience. But the scene would have been 20x worse had Gohan exploded in a fit of rage and started screaming at the Zenos or something based off a guy he fought for what probably literally amounts to a minute.

For #2: Don't even need to say anything about this one. I think I'll just post this relevant-as-ever picture:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

It's like people completely forgot Goku's character and suddenly this whole "Goku having fun fighting people even in the most dire of situations" thing is brand new to them.

What does need to change though is that other universes need to start eliminating people, this is getting kind of ridiculous. I think Universe 7 is responsible for something like 90% of the eliminations thus far. If that number really stays that high throughout the entire tournament then that's going to be very disappointing. The only way they could sort of make up for this is by explaining the majority of those universes are weak compared to U6 and U7 and the other four remaining universes that aren't in the tournament are a lot stronger or on the same level as 6/7. But that's still lame because having a battle royale that's as insanely one sided as this one is sad.

Not that it's completely pointless to have a battle royale as I think the concept is still very cool and I like the idea of our split up heroes fighting on their own amongst the chaos, but some more shots of the other universes fighting would be nice. As some have pointed out it almost feels like the other universes aren't even fighting each other. Almost none of them have been able to get a single ring out. What the hell are they doing? Or are they really just that weak?

[The gr]

What does need to change though is that other universes need to start eliminating people, this is getting kind of ridiculous. I think Universe 7 is responsible for something like 90% of the eliminations thus far. If that number really stays that high throughout the entire tournament then that's going to be very disappointing. The only way they could sort of make up for this is by explaining the majority of those universes are weak compared to U6 and U7 and the other four remaining universes that aren't in the tournament are a lot stronger or on the same level as 6/7. But that's still lame because having a battle royale that's as insanely one sided as this one is sad.

Not that it's completely pointless to have a battle royale as I think the concept is still very cool and I like the idea of our split up heroes fighting on their own amongst the chaos, but some more shots of the other universes fighting would be nice. As some have pointed out it almost feels like the other universes aren't even fighting each other. Almost none of them have been able to get a single ring out. What the hell are they doing? Or are they really just that weak?

Ugh tell me about it,I really want someone to tell me how can the 80 man battle royale work

[Drellz26]

Why is so much emphasis still being placed onto "letting his guard down"? It's now clear that not only does Goku want to enjoy these fights but he also wants to learn about and from other fighters, it's not as if he's just not aware of his surroundings. Plus, the gods are saying that anytime ANYONE looks to be in trouble, not just him. The fighters say it to each other, mostly to Goku, but that seems like more of a reminder of the battle royal. Our fighters are used to 1 v 1 fights, it's a good thing they continue to remind each other so no one loses focus. Goku hasn't come close to elimination since the very start, I don't think he's really just messing up when he finds himself in a sticky situation, just testing the grounds. Still only 10 minutes gone by, I'm sure when all the fodders gone he will become super serious.



I was so excited at watching the NEP with Hit vs Dyspo, wish we could get an entire Universe 7less episode

[Username2016]

I mean, there was emotion, but it felt forced and empty, kind of like they're telling you, "hey, this scene is sad; look, you know that guy that was just introduced in this episode and had no backstory? He had a family. Please, feel bad for him." There's a lot more impact when you're actually emotionally invested in a character, even if they're just introduced for one or two episodes. It's hard to make anyone care for a character that was just introduced, but if this guy had a family, they could have used him as a parallel/foil for Gohan to remind him of the gravity of the overall situation WHILE they fought, developing Gohan's character in the process. Also, there's the fact that Gowasu was a part of this, but the guy was basically a background still for the whole arc, despite his relevance in the previous storyline.

I'm not sure what you're expecting then, the emotion worked just fine for me. You're right that we don't know these other fighters enough to care about them as individual characters, but the fact that we know they're fighting for their loved ones and their very existence is enough in itself. Many of them have families and kids, which is something people forget given most of these fighters look like animals or monsters or creatures or whatever.

Episode had rather lackluster animation for the last half of the episode.


But forget about this episode, the next episode is where the fun will finally begin (or at least the quality will go up). WILL THE NEP HAVE GOOD WRITING AND GOOD ANIMATION? I can not wait for the next episode. We. Need. Answers.

The animation in the second half of the episode looked fantastic. You guys are asking for GOOD animation? I can't see anything about the later half of this episode especially that looked bad especially in motion.

Yeah we're asking for good animation because looking at the Future Trunks Arc the team IS capable of providing us with that kind of quality.

And no, the later half of the episode had shit animation

https://imgur.com/LtWlf19
https://imgur.com/vPM5bYF

[Username2016]

Goku hasn't come close to elimination since the very start,

He has
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGTVt6uSbYY

[fadeddreams5]

So apparently characters reusing the same attacks suddenly became such a huge problem now?

-Having two different characters using that scatter shot technique seemed lazy. Both cases were rip-offs of Piccolo's original battle with Android 17, only with little emotion attached. You can call this a homage, but Super has been doing stuff like this so much, I'm convinced the creators have no imagination and are just reusing scenes from the superior show to compensate.

Goku and Gohan end numerous battles with a Kamehameha, it's all good. Piccolo uses the Hellzone Grenade more than once, everyone loses their shit

You guys missed the point. Reusing attacks isn't the issue; directly borrowing from past scenes in which those attacks were used is.
>Piccolo aimlessly throws energy balls
>Opponent comments on how he's missing
>Opponent becomes surprised when he's surrounded.

This happened already. First time something like this occurred in Super was when Vegeta used his final flash against Magetta, but I thought that was a cool homage. Afterwards, these callbacks have been happening more frequently. We never really get anything new or wild; I feel these guys don't have a creative bone in their bodies for this sort of stuff, which is kind of the point of the series...

Huh? It was made obvious enough that Gohan transformed into his Ultimate Form. Not every transformation needs to follow the same pattern of dramatic atmosphere and music. The fight between Gohan and Obuni was well choreographed enough with Tate's fluid expressions and Obuni's ability to create feints of himself.

I mean, they didn't need to give him a cool transformation sequence, but it would have made the scene that much better if they did, considering we hadn't seen Ultimate Gohan since the recruitment episodes. That, and every other character seems to get their own.

Likewise, this scene didn't need to happen in the past:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxfY1LcXOb8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpRysAo5pU0

We already saw SSJ Goku before, multiple times. But that didn't stop them from making that scene dramatic (albeit, not over-the-top). It's just so...cool!

I'd say this is by far one of the most powerful scenes in Super. Not just because of Gowasu's depressing tone and the entire team accepting their erasure, but how much weight Onpi's locket held with it containing a picture of him and his wife and child.

Just the depressing music along with the sorrowful expression on Gohan's face upon laying his eyes on the locket belonging to the person he eliminated himself and seeing it then vanish out of existence. It's definitely something Gohan connects and sympathizes with considering he entered the tournament for the sole purpose of protecting not only his universe, but his family as well. Seeing another person sharing that same fiery determination and momentum to protect their dear ones just downright fail to keep said promise would definitely hit a nerve.

Everything you mentioned was hamfisted to make the scene sad. It was supposed to be one of the most powerful scenes, but it was flawed in so many ways that it ended up feeling hollow instead. For one, we don't know who that Opni guy is. The connection was supposed to be made before his demise. Secondly, we shouldn't need something as cliche as a locket to remind us that some of these guys have families. Opni isn't special, and him and Gohan don't automatically have a special connection because he has a family; MANY of these characters do. There are others ways to convey this. Third, Gowasu just died in such an anti-climactic way; this arc treated him as though we were never introduced to him before, which was weird.

Case in point, the scene is bad because there were so, so, sooooo many ways to make it better. Nothing complicated either. Compare it to any sad scene from the past, be it Planet Vegeta's destruction, Future Gohan's death, Krillin's death against Tambourine, Goku's death against Cell, Kid Buu's destruction of Earth, Majin Vegeta's self-sacrifice, Vegeta's death on Namek, Piccolo's original sacrifice for Gohan, and so on. In those, we are emotionally invested in the characters that die, there's build up leading to this, and the show takes itself serious enough that you know they are dead (i.e. they don't just "ZOOM" vanish). The scenes are so much more powerful as a result.

[Asura]

What does need to change though is that other universes need to start eliminating people, this is getting kind of ridiculous. I think Universe 7 is responsible for something like 90% of the eliminations thus far. If that number really stays that high throughout the entire tournament then that's going to be very disappointing. The only way they could sort of make up for this is by explaining the majority of those universes are weak compared to U6 and U7 and the other four remaining universes that aren't in the tournament are a lot stronger or on the same level as 6/7. But that's still lame because having a battle royale that's as insanely one sided as this one is sad.

Not that it's completely pointless to have a battle royale as I think the concept is still very cool and I like the idea of our split up heroes fighting on their own amongst the chaos, but some more shots of the other universes fighting would be nice. As some have pointed out it almost feels like the other universes aren't even fighting each other. Almost none of them have been able to get a single ring out. What the hell are they doing? Or are they really just that weak?

Ugh tell me about it,I really want someone to tell me how can the 80 man battle royale work

Well for starters people shouldn't be expecting a fleshed out 80 man battle royale unless we had like 20 episodes solely dedicated just to learning about other characters from other universes. I'm guessing this would bore the crap out of the average viewer at home because where's Goku.

But given what they've already done in the recruitment arc, the tournament should have been given a few adjustments. Like some have said, some cuts in some of the episodes to other universes fighting would have been great. In ep. 97 the first episode of the tournament they did a good job in showing all the universes fighting each other in the chaos like Goku vs that guy from U4, Basil vs the flying girl from U10, A18 vs Cocotte I think it was? Vegeta vs man who can withstand a million punches, Toppo vs Murichim, etc.

Just like 30 seconds to a minute or so during every episode or every other episode that shows a few random mooks fighting each other and even getting KOs would be good to show us that A. they're still fighting in the background and B. they're actually knocking each other out so U7 and U6 don't get literally every knockout.

We don't need Goku in every single episode. Goku was in Krillin's episode for like 1 minute then it focused entirely on Krillin and 18. The same thing should have been done with this episode. 17 and Goku should have wrapped things up with the Yardrat teleporting everyone away in like the first two minutes of the episode and the rest of the time should have been focused solely on Gohan and Piccolo. Could very well have possibly been the best episode of the tournament if it had gone this way and Gohan and Obuni were allowed to make a real connection during their fight and then he got erased afterwards, because as is the locket with the picture of his family was very underwhelming given we knew almost nothing about him and him and Gohan didn't fight for that long or make that much of a connection during their fight since it was so short.

[Basako]

Yeah we're asking for good animation because looking at the Future Trunks Arc the team IS capable of providing us with that kind of quality.

And no, the later half of the episode had shit animation

https://imgur.com/LtWlf19
https://imgur.com/vPM5bYF

The animation was mostly good, in both halfs. Your second image of Gohan and Botamo is partial and zoomed in, they are far away being obseved by Piccolo and Goku in the complete image. Now it's being much better than the Zamasu arc in overal.

[ekrolo2]

I think the arcs focus problem could've been alleviated by definitively picking 5-7 POV characters and let us see the whole event through their eyes. Say, episode 95 focuses on Goku's POV and then 96, which happens simultaneously as 95, shows us Freeza's.

And with character match ups, you can use say Gohan's POV to let us see what's Piccolo up to. Cuz right now it's all over the fucking place focus wise.

[Asura]

Yeah we're asking for good animation because looking at the Future Trunks Arc the team IS capable of providing us with that kind of quality.

And no, the later half of the episode had shit animation

https://imgur.com/LtWlf19
https://imgur.com/vPM5bYF

You didn't think these were examples of good animation?

[precita]

Yep, those fights also had excellent animation. I honestly don't know what people want.

Especially the people who said, "the characters are just moving around on-screen," ....lol. We see all various techniques and strategy being used by every character. I guess you can say Gohan/Botamo was just bland punching, which it was, but not for anything else.

[Basako]

Yep, those fights also had excellent animation. I honestly don't know what people want.

Especially the people who said, "the characters are just moving around on-screen," ....lol. We see all various techniques and strategy being used by every character. I guess you can say Gohan/Botamo was just bland punching, which it was, but not for anything else.

Totally, good animation and choreographies or editing. How the fighters move and fight, their facial expresions and everything is mostly fine. I could nitpick a few frames and complain, but I don't think it would be fair, in overall is good.