dissapointed about the action

[Boo Machine]

EDIT:
Seriously the difference is like night and day.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

You probably should have used videos of the 2 fights to make the point stronger. You can't just say something like "The difference is night and day!" and then use a picture some fan drew. The artist could literally have drawn whatever he wanted you to see. It feels more than a little dishonest.

Vegeta vs Captain Ginyu: (Sorry to those who don't like the dub, it's the only version I could find.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nxd26_A_Jc

Goku vs Gohan:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsI8QkAHre0 - Oops this one is edited to cut out some stuff

Better version of Goku vs Gohan:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1uxoabXTLc&t=155s

There, now you can compare and see the difference.

[Lionel]

None of the fights in super have been choreographed well, the people who say that it looks good to them or equal to z are the same type of people who can't tell the difference between watching two bums on the street flailing at each other and two world renowned martial artist exchanging strikes. Their has yet to be one iconic scene in this anime and we are 100+ episodes in and every fight is either a beam spam or the 1 2 straight punch spam . It's mindless and devoid of any strategy which makes a mundane watch for someone expecting something other then rockem sock robots.

The dragonball franchise is so big at this point that the name sell it alone , it's too big to fail so they don't have to put the same of level of quality into as they did in the previous series . I personally don't blame the staff for this , why bother working hard when you can do the minimalist amount of work and be greatly rewarded for it by a blindly supportive fanbase with little to no standards.

even if this series gets 200+ episodes don't expect any of the action set pieces to change in a meaningful way, so if 1 2 straight punch spam and beam spams aren't your thing you'll merely be a dissenting fan compared to the rest of the fans who will gleefully swallow it .

EDIT:
Seriously the difference is like night and day.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

I wouldn't even call what we saw in most of the original manga "martial arts", just Toriyama's compromised interpretation of movies he saw starring Jackie Chan and Bruce Lee. This is what I would call "martial arts":

[spoiler][/spoiler]

It's something like martial arts, but in an abstract fictionalised tone.

[BlueBasilisk]

And let's not forget that the fight between Goku and Cell had almost a full straight minute of Goku spamming ki blasts at Cell while going ATATATATAT complete with recycled shots. Z had some good choreography in key moments like the beginning of that same fight but it had plenty of punching loops and ki blast assaults to fill out the space between.

[perucho1990]

Some fans would be satisfied if the action scene were something like this



I remember they tried to copy this scene with Basil vs Buu and looked very lazy.

[snpaa]

[spoiler]EDIT:
Seriously the difference is like night and day.
[/spoiler]

You probably should have used videos of the 2 fights to make the point stronger. You can't just say something like "The difference is night and day!" and then use a picture some fan drew. The artist could literally have drawn whatever he wanted you to see. It feels more than a little dishonest.

Vegeta vs Captain Ginyu: (Sorry to those who don't like the dub, it's the only version I could find.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nxd26_A_Jc

Goku vs Gohan:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsI8QkAHre0

There, now you can compare and see the difference.

you make a fair point but That goku vs gohan video you posted has been edited to remove a lot of the fluff, I noticed a lot of the looping animations in that actual episode have been removed, thus giving the impression that it was a lot more of dynamic fight then it actually was. can you post a more accurate video?

And let's not forget that the fight between Goku and Cell had almost a full straight minute of Goku spamming ki blasts at Cell while going ATATATATAT complete with recycled shots. Z had some good choreography in key moments like the beginning of that same fight but it had plenty of punching loops and ki blast assaults to fill out the space between.

That was legitimately the only time goku ever used a ki spam attack in dragonball z, usually only vegeta would resort to that type of attack and always never worked. When goku ki spam cell it was a final desperation assault before passing the responsibility of defeating cell to gohan . Goku within the z series would only go for quality powerful charged up ki beams instead of throwing skittles at the opponent every match.

I wouldn't even call what we saw in most of the original manga "martial arts", just Toriyama's compromised interpretation of movies he saw starring Jackie Chan and Bruce Lee. This is what I would call "martial arts":

[spoiler][/spoiler]

It's something like martial arts, but in an abstract fictionalised tone.

You only posted 3 legitimate gifs of martial arts IE: brazilian jujitusu and judo. The rest is either wushu which doesn't work in a real fight nor should be attempted, but it's impressive to look at from acrobatic standpoint and the other seems like a scripted version of krav maga/gun dismemberment . But if you believed that these other 3 non useful fighting martial arts count as martial arts , then I don't see why you'd bother highlighting dragonball and z martial arts for being fictionalized because inuiniverse they work and are loosely based on martial arts. I'm a little on the slow side today so elaborate on what your point was.

[Boo Machine]

you make a fair point but That goku vs gohan video you posted has been edited to remove a lot of the fluff, I noticed a lot of the looping animations in that actual episode have been removed, thus giving the impression that it was a lot more of dynamic fight then it actually was. can you post a more accurate video?

Oh snap! You're right. That's my bad.

Vegeta vs Captain Ginyu: (Sorry to those who don't like the dub, it's the only version I could find.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nxd26_A_Jc

Goku vs Gohan:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1uxoabXTLc&t=155s

That one should be better, I edited my original post but I'll just link it here to. The dialogue is cut out but all the ATATATATA's are in there. It's surprisingly difficult to find this fight in full that isn't edited or in a million parts.

[Lionel]

I wouldn't even call what we saw in most of the original manga "martial arts", just Toriyama's compromised interpretation of movies he saw starring Jackie Chan and Bruce Lee. This is what I would call "martial arts":

[spoiler][/spoiler]

It's something like martial arts, but in an abstract fictionalised tone.

You only posted 3 legitimate gifs of martial arts IE: brazilian jujitusu and judo. The rest is either wushu which doesn't not work in a real fight nor should be attempted, but it's impressive to look at from acrobatic standpoint and the other seems like a scripted version of krav maga/gun dismemberment . But if you believed that these other 3 non useful fighting martial arts count as martial arts , then I don't see why you'd bother highlighting dragonball and z martial arts for being fictionalized because inuiniverse they work and are loosely based on martial arts. I'm a little on the slow side today so elaborate on what your point was.

I'm confused, I was under the impression that one of the incorporated aspects of Wushu was Sanda which happens to entail Chinese boxing techniques. Krav Maga entails self-defence movements including several techniques to disarm an opponent. I'm not a martial artist personally but I think you can put an appellative face to most of the techniques used. My citation of Dragon Ball is primarily fixated on the suggestion of distinguishable complex martial arts techniques or forms being used. How is the conclusion drawn of someone being more skilled if the manoeuvres used happen to be universally seen in most, if not all of the characters?

[precita]

These fights don't need to last long. As we said, the "big" fights of the tournament once we get down to 10 remaining fighters will likely go on a number of episodes.

I also find it bizarre people act like old DBZ fights with "underlings" ever lasted more than 1 episode. The only exception is Nappa:

- Vegeta Vs. Cui is 10 minutes long
- Vegeta Vs. Dodoria, if you cut out the flashback scenes, happens in less than 10 minutes
- Vegeta Vs. Zarbon both fights only last an episode
- Guldo's fight is a single episode
- Goku against Burter/Jeice is 1 episode
- Vegeta/Jeice is 1 episode
- Ginyu versus Goku, and then in Goku's body, the actual fights were only 1 episode

- Vegeta/19 is less than an episode
- Vegeta/18 is 1 episode
- Piccolo/17 the actual fight is 1 episode

- Vegeta/Pui Pui is 1 episode
- Goku/Yakon is 1 episode
- Gohan/Dabura if you just count the fight and not the other scenes in the episode, the actual fight is less than 10 minutes

[Zagacious]

And let's not forget that the fight between Goku and Cell had almost a full straight minute of Goku spamming ki blasts at Cell while going ATATATATAT complete with recycled shots. Z had some good choreography in key moments like the beginning of that same fight but it had plenty of punching loops and ki blast assaults to fill out the space between.

The difference is that was only a small part of a huge fight which lasted 2-3 episodes, which was among a few other fights with Perfect Cell. It wasn't just one little fight of "ATATATAT" ki spamming then instant knock out like we have now. It's a really poor comparison if you actually go back and watch that fight compared to what we have now. DBZ used plenty of reused animation of ki blasts and such, that's fine when it's well placed, but the overall fight was much longer and much more happened and the replayed clips were just part of it.

These fights don't need to last long. As we said, the "big" fights of the tournament once we get down to 10 remaining fighters will likely go on a number of episodes.

I also find it bizarre people act like old DBZ fights with "underlings" ever lasted more than 1 episode. The only exception is Nappa:

- Vegeta Vs. Cui is 10 minutes long
- Vegeta Vs. Dodoria, if you cut out the flashback scenes, happens in less than 10 minutes
- Vegeta Vs. Zarbon both fights only last an episode
- Guldo's fight is a single episode
- Goku against Burter/Jeice is 1 episode
- Vegeta/Jeice is 1 episode
- Ginyu versus Goku, and then in Goku's body, the actual fights were only 1 episode

- Vegeta/19 is less than an episode
- Vegeta/18 is 1 episode
- Piccolo/17 the actual fight is 1 episode

- Vegeta/Pui Pui is 1 episode
- Goku/Yakon is 1 episode
- Gohan/Dabura if you just count the fight and not the other scenes in the episode, the actual fight is less than 10 minutes

You defeated your own argument by showing just how much longer those fights were. None of these tournament fights are even close to that long except Goku and Vegeta vs Trio De Dangers.. I don't even..
The only one that's even comparable is the extremely short fight between Vegeta and Pui Pui, that's what the majority of these fights are. Some of them aren't even as lengthy as that fight. These episodes are barely even 20 minutes long and you have fighters eliminated after barely 2-3min of action, majority of which they are just moving around not even punching or doing anything.

[perucho1990]

The difference is that was only a small part of a huge fight which lasted 2-3 episodes, which was among a few other fights with Perfect Cell. It wasn't just one little fight of "ATATATAT" ki spamming then instant knock out like we have now. It's a really poor comparison if you actually go back and watch that fight compared to what we have now. DBZ used plenty of reused animation of ki blasts and such, that's fine when it's well placed, but the overall fight was much longer and much more happened and the replayed clips were just part of it.

These fights don't need to last long. As we said, the "big" fights of the tournament once we get down to 10 remaining fighters will likely go on a number of episodes.

I also find it bizarre people act like old DBZ fights with "underlings" ever lasted more than 1 episode. The only exception is Nappa:

- Vegeta Vs. Cui is 10 minutes long
- Vegeta Vs. Dodoria, if you cut out the flashback scenes, happens in less than 10 minutes
- Vegeta Vs. Zarbon both fights only last an episode
- Guldo's fight is a single episode
- Goku against Burter/Jeice is 1 episode
- Vegeta/Jeice is 1 episode
- Ginyu versus Goku, and then in Goku's body, the actual fights were only 1 episode

- Vegeta/19 is less than an episode
- Vegeta/18 is 1 episode
- Piccolo/17 the actual fight is 1 episode

- Vegeta/Pui Pui is 1 episode
- Goku/Yakon is 1 episode
- Gohan/Dabura if you just count the fight and not the other scenes in the episode, the actual fight is less than 10 minutes

You defeated your own argument by showing just how much longer those fights were. None of these tournament fights are even close to that long except Goku and Vegeta vs Trio De Dangers.. I don't even..
The only one that's even comparable is the extremely short fight between Vegeta and Pui Pui, that's what the majority of these fights are. Some of them aren't even as lengthy as that fight. These episodes are barely even 20 minutes long and you have fighters eliminated after barely 2-3min of action, majority of which they are just moving around not even punching or doing anything.

Z also had better OST, and OST somewhat helps carrying fight scenes that look meh.

Imagine if Super had someone like Sawano, he couldve made a Botamo fight look decent.

[Sonicjamareiz]

Supers fights and animation is LAZY therefore you should not defend it if you do so you're nothing but a FANBOY/thread. The thing is I agree with some of your post but it's the ToP portion is what I'm disappointed in.

[fadeddreams5]

These fights don't need to last long. As we said, the "big" fights of the tournament once we get down to 10 remaining fighters will likely go on a number of episodes.

I also find it bizarre people act like old DBZ fights with "underlings" ever lasted more than 1 episode. The only exception is Nappa:

- Vegeta Vs. Cui is 10 minutes long
- Vegeta Vs. Dodoria, if you cut out the flashback scenes, happens in less than 10 minutes
- Vegeta Vs. Zarbon both fights only last an episode
- Guldo's fight is a single episode
- Goku against Burter/Jeice is 1 episode
- Vegeta/Jeice is 1 episode
- Ginyu versus Goku, and then in Goku's body, the actual fights were only 1 episode

- Vegeta/19 is less than an episode
- Vegeta/18 is 1 episode
- Piccolo/17 the actual fight is 1 episode

- Vegeta/Pui Pui is 1 episode
- Goku/Yakon is 1 episode
- Gohan/Dabura if you just count the fight and not the other scenes in the episode, the actual fight is less than 10 minutes

You just pointed out the main issue with this arc. These fighters are treated as underlings/fodder despite being the STRONGEST of their respective universe. The wolves actually got a chance to shine in the exhibition and, as a result, are among the most recognizable from this arc. In fact, they're the only good characters outside of Toppo and the new Uni 6 fighters. Every fight should be unique. If it's asking too much because this is a battle royale and there are TOO MANY new characters, well, guess who's to blame?

On a side note, that Vegeta vs Pui Pui fight was one of the greatest and most memorable scenes I have ever watched from DBZ, and that was against a true underling. Super can't hold a candle to even that...

[Jigurashi]

Some gems have been noticeable throughout the tournament, but by and large it's pretty generic. But I'm someone that has a difficult time finding the choreography all that engaging and memorable. Jackie Chun fighting Tenshinhan has to be more impressive than many of the fights in Super and even Z. It was basic with mostly hand to hand combat, but it worked for what the series was focusing on at the time. Finding quality fights like that in some of this later material is hard to do.

While Jackie Chun VS Ten isn't in my top 10, I do feel it's a better fight than most fights in the entire series (I do think Goku VS Ten and Goku VS Piccolo Jr are better fights though). I've honestly felt Goku VS Hitto and Goku VS Golden Freeza II were great fights that's comparable to some of the best fights in the series. The latter one just being an extremely quick one-shot fight that I found beautifully animated and to the point.

ever since the tournament started and up to this episode as well the action is mediocore. bearly any melee fights and focusing more on beams. you dont see good choroapraphy at all. the fights are bland as hell.

This has always been Super's problem.
Other than Goku vs Beerus, Vegetto vs Zamasu and a small clip of Goku vs Black.

I'd argue this is false. I thought Goku + Trunks VS Black + Zamasu, Goku VS Golden Freeza II, Goku VS Hitto, Majin Boo VS Basil, Goku VS Toppo, Gohan VS Lavender, Goku VS Kuririn (episode 84), and Goku VS Gohan all ranged from decent to great fights. Especially Majin Boo VS Basil.

[Boo Machine]

On a side note, that Vegeta vs Pui Pui fight was one of the greatest and most memorable scenes I have ever watched from DBZ, and that was against a true underling. Super can't hold a candle to even that...

I find Vegeta vs Pui Pui to be an interesting comparison. Because, action wise, I feel if a fight like Vegeta vs Pui pui happened in Super I imagine a lot of people being furious. It's a lot of looped animation with a a punch or kick thrown in for good measure. And it recycles a few bits. It's not very unique or interesting fight unless Vegeta happens to be your favorite character. The only really cool bit is the killing blow. I've seen people say they like this fight a lot, so I'd like to hear from a few what makes it so good in their eyes in comparison to Super fights, and especially what makes it a great and memorable moment.

Because I personally feel like Vegeta vs Pui Pui does a lot of what some would accuse Super of doing when criticizing its action.

If anyone needs to take a look at the fight:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tx4qu46HsMg

[Miracles]

I'd argue this is false. I thought Goku + Trunks VS Black + Zamasu, Goku VS Golden Freeza II, Goku VS Hitto, Majin Boo VS Basil, Goku VS Toppo, Gohan VS Lavender, Goku VS Kuririn (episode 84), and Goku VS Gohan all ranged from decent to great fights. Especially Majin Boo VS Basil.

Yep. Those were also good.
I especially forgot about the exhibition matches.

[sintzu]

I'm just asking. is it not okay for us as fans to ask for somethin that will blow our mind. the same way the cell vs goku fight blow our mind back then.

A good amount of people here think what we've gotten so far is that good which really shows how low everyone's standareds are for the franchise. We're to the point where just moving figures on the screen is enough to make people happy.

The only thing I can think of is that they're saving their best staff for the main fights. a team up of Goku and Hit is as main as it gets so that's where I think things will start to pick up (then again, Goku and Vegeta teaming up is a big deal and we all know how that turned out).

Super has shown to be able to do really good fights but unlike DB & Z, it can't do them all the time because of how messed up its production is and how spread out Toei's staff is. I'm not expecting Goku vs Hit level of quality every episode but with a tournament like this, we should've gotten something close by now.

This series has had production issues from the very beggining that ONLY 80 EPISODES IN started showing signs of a good production and you're asking for something revolutionary?!

And now we're back to square one. We were to a point at the end of the Black arc where we could ask for great fights but now we're back to asking for just decent ones.

[fadeddreams5]

On a side note, that Vegeta vs Pui Pui fight was one of the greatest and most memorable scenes I have ever watched from DBZ, and that was against a true underling. Super can't hold a candle to even that...

I find Vegeta vs Pui Pui to be an interesting comparison. Because, action wise, I feel if a fight like Vegeta vs Pui pui happened in Super I imagine a lot of people being furious. It's a lot of looped animation with a a punch or kick thrown in for good measure. And it recycles a few bits. It's not very unique or interesting fight unless Vegeta happens to be your favorite character. And I've seen people say they like this fight a lot, so I'd like to hear from a few what makes it so good in their eyes in comparison to Super fights, and especially what makes it a great and memorable moment.

Because I personally feel like Vegeta vs Pui Pui does a lot of what some would accuse Super of doing when criticizing its action.

That fight against Pui Pui isn't treated as a fight. It's moreso a statement from Vegeta and an example of how a battle (well, a beatdown, in particular) does not need to have stellar animation (it's pretty average; good, but not amazing) or be long-winded with a beginning, middle, and end to be compelling. There's minimal choreography too. It's a very simple, one-sided beatdown that hits all the right cords and defines Vegeta's character.

I'd say it's for several reasons:
A. The tone is completely serious despite what an absolutely ridiculous villain Pui Pui is. In Super, you'd expect some sort of gag in a scene like this. But no. You have Shin shitting his pants in the background, Goku excitedly observing without saying anything idiotic, and Vegeta is just there, completely stone cold.
B. Vegeta absolutely humiliates this guy. He lets him think he can win, but proceeds to block everything he throws and swap him away multiple times.
C. We're treated to effective humor as this guy is teleported to his home planet and brags about it having 10x the gravity of Earth. If you've watched this show for a long time, you know just how fucked this guy is. Even then, this is treated in a subtle manner, and the only reaction you get is Vegeta gloating that he doesn't feel it. Super has a tendency to be on the nose with its jokes.
D. Vegeta does this boxing stance, smirks, and delivers a brutal punch and kick. The sound effects are crazy; it feels like thunder is crashing when Vegeta delivers the blow.
E. It ends with Vegeta charging in, IN SLOW MOTION, smirking in this guy's face, and blowing him up to smithereens with not a single fuck given. The dub score is icing on the cake.

This is one of those scenes you can show to a friend who has never watched the series to have him want to check out a few more episodes. It leaves an impression, and it all revolves around a pathetic minion. I cannot find anything like this is Super.

[Boo Machine]

A good amount of people here think what we've gotten so far is that good which really shows how low everyone's standareds are for the franchise. We're to the point where just moving figures on the screen is enough to make people happy.

At the risk of people accusing me of being salty.

Can we please stop doing this "Everyeones standards are so low" thing? It's being used so often I'm starting to feel like people are using it as an insult. There are different levels of enjoyment, thinking something is good is not the same thing as thinking it's amazing or "lives up to DBZ", it doesn't have to be about anyone necessarily having low or high standards.

Episode 103's first half was boring as hell, but the episodes it's self had some good bits of action. Not amazing bits of action, but pretty cool fight scenes I thought were well done and I'd like to think others don't hold that view because their ignorant chimps who are simply amused by colors and shapes.

[The gr]

You just pointed out the main issue with this arc. These fighters are treated as underlings/fodder despite being the STRONGEST of their respective universe. The wolves actually got a chance to shine in the exhibition and, as a result, are among the most recognizable from this arc. In fact, they're the only good characters outside of Toppo and the new Uni 6 fighters. Every fight should be unique. If it's asking too much because this is a battle royale and there are TOO MANY new characters, well, guess who's to blame?

On a side note, that Vegeta vs Pui Pui fight was one of the greatest and most memorable scenes I have ever watched from DBZ, and that was against a true underling. Super can't hold a candle to even that...

Is embarrassing on how there threating the supposedly strongest warrior or leader of a universethe action range from ok to average with a couple of nice cuts,98 had a lot of them

[sintzu]

Can we please stop doing this "Everyeones standards are so low" thing? It's being used so often I'm starting to feel like people are using it as an insult.

What else do you want us to say ? when people say this is Super at its best, it's hard not to think their expectations are very low.

A major difference between the battles in DBZ and Super is that the former had layers to it. They were like self-contained stories; each had a beginning, middle, and end that did not just consist of tatattatatata and beams for 30 minutes.

Example using, arguably, the best fight in the entire franchise (i.e. Vegeta vs Everyone):

The difference is that the original was made to sell a story so that's the kind of writing required to do so, Super on the other hand is made to sell merchandise to kids which doesn't require much effort.