So according to the NEP for 104 (SPOILERS) is coming back

[GodVegetto91]

I know the manga and anime dont match 100% but Vegeta uses SSG in the manga. Its never been said he skipped SSG.

This argument doesn't work here. It's never been implied or even hinted that Vegeta achieved the actual SSJ God Form, all we know is that he was learning to control his ki so that it doesn't leak after having raised it, and boom, he turns Super Saiyan and voila, SSJ Blue was born. There are two different methods towards gaining God ki, and that is the Super Saiyan God ritual, or learning to control your ki to that of a divine level so it turns Blue. It's up to you to prove that Vegeta DID achieve SSJ God, not the other way around.

Instead of doing the SSJ God ritual and stealing the energy of 5 other saiyans, Vegeta got super-special training from the ultimate Grand Master, Whis, for 6 whole months! There was no need for the ritual, plus there weren't any saiyans around on Beerus' planet. It's extremely safe to say Vegeta didn't achieve SSJ God. That's not to say he won't in the future ofcourse!

How does that argument not work? Youre using your own head canon to disregard fact. I cant argue with that, its head canon.

I'm simply saying it cant be assumed he can or cant. Its never been implied either way.

Actually you're the one who's wrong in this one. There is no evidence that Vegeta ever achieved SSJ God offscreen, true or false? On the other hand, there IS evidence that suggests otherwise. I.e. Vegeta training with Whis instead for 6 whole months and learning to "control his ki" as revealed several times during the series, which i've all addressed above^. There is no reason to assume he did achieve SSJ God, but there IS reason to assume he didn't.

[Basako]

This argument doesn't work here. It's never been implied or even hinted that Vegeta achieved the actual SSJ God Form, all we know is that he was learning to control his ki so that it doesn't leak after having raised it, and boom, he turns Super Saiyan and voila, SSJ Blue was born. There are two different methods towards gaining God ki, and that is the Super Saiyan God ritual, or learning to control your ki to that of a divine level so it turns Blue. It's up to you to prove that Vegeta DID achieve SSJ God, not the other way around.

Instead of doing the SSJ God ritual and stealing the energy of 5 other saiyans, Vegeta got super-special training from the ultimate Grand Master, Whis, for 6 whole months! There was no need for the ritual, plus there weren't any saiyans around on Beerus' planet. It's extremely safe to say Vegeta didn't achieve SSJ God. That's not to say he won't in the future ofcourse!

How does that argument not work? Youre using your own head canon to disregard fact. I cant argue with that, its head canon.

I'm simply saying it cant be assumed he can or cant. Its never been implied either way.

Actually you're the one who's wrong in this one. There is no evidence that Vegeta ever achieved SSJ God offscreen, true or false? On the other hand, there IS evidence that suggests otherwise. I.e. Vegeta training with Whis instead for 6 whole months and learning to "control his ki" as revealed several times during the series, which i've all addressed above^. There is no reason to assume he did achieve SSJ God, but there IS reason to assume he didn't.

But there is reason, I mean, SSB is a SSG using the SS form, that is a reason itself that heavily suggest he got the form before. It worked that way in the manga. Now, we all thought the anime was different, but, suddenly, we got Goku turning SSG again, debunking the only one time thing (unless they make the ritual), which had always been just a theory anyway, never stated. Also, I've read in other comments that Goku said about Vegeta that he got the power without the need of the ritual, that means he is speaking about the same thing, SSG. Goku kind of explains to Freeza what SSB is.

The problem with the anime is that Goku retained the SSG power into his base, but we just have to assume it was temporary. There are not two bases, just inconsistent power levels, Vegeta base stronger than SS3 Gotenks one of the worst ones.

[GodVegetto91]

How does that argument not work? Youre using your own head canon to disregard fact. I cant argue with that, its head canon.

I'm simply saying it cant be assumed he can or cant. Its never been implied either way.

Actually you're the one who's wrong in this one. There is no evidence that Vegeta ever achieved SSJ God offscreen, true or false? On the other hand, there IS evidence that suggests otherwise. I.e. Vegeta training with Whis instead for 6 whole months and learning to "control his ki" as revealed several times during the series, which i've all addressed above^. There is no reason to assume he did achieve SSJ God, but there IS reason to assume he didn't.

But there is reason, I mean, SSB is a SSG using the SS form, that is a reason itself that heavily suggest he got the form before. It worked that way in the manga. Now, we all thought the anime was different, but, suddenly, we got Goku turning SSG again, debunking the only one time thing (unless they make the ritual), which had always been just a theory anyway, never stated. Also, I've read in other comments that Goku said about Vegeta that he got the power without the need of the ritual, that means he is speaking about the same thing, SSG. Goku kind of explains to Freeza what SSB is.

The problem with the anime is that Goku retained the SSG power into his base, but we just have to assume it was temporary. There are not two bases, just inconsistent power levels, Vegeta base stronger than SS3 Gotenks one of the worst ones.

Please not this again, i've had to endure this for more than 2 days straight by more than 95% of the fandom. SSJ Blue is NOT a Super Saiyan God in Super Saiyan Form, otherwise he'd be in God Mode with RED hair and it's lean and slimmed down body. Clearly all of these things, are self-evidently not the case with SSJ Blue. Why? Because Super Saiyan Blue is just regular Super Saiyan tapping into God ki (which we now know to be just regular ki controlled perfectly) so that it doesn't leak out of the users body into the area for others to pick up on and sense. It has NOTHING to do with SSJ God, and the fact that Vegeta achieved Blue on his own, withoht ever becoming a SSJ God proves that. When Whis told Goku and Vegeta to raise their ki only within their own bodies to avoid alerting their opponents, something strange happened after they did just that and started to collide their fists, SSJB's "BLUE ki" emerged! Also, you can't use the manga in this debate since that's clearly it's own continuity, and Toyotaro himself doesn't seem to understand how these God forms are supposed to work. Only logic and reason can reveal them. Vegeta may have achieved SSJ God in the Manga, but he sure as hell didn't achieve it in the Anime.

[Basako]

Actually you're the one who's wrong in this one. There is no evidence that Vegeta ever achieved SSJ God offscreen, true or false? On the other hand, there IS evidence that suggests otherwise. I.e. Vegeta training with Whis instead for 6 whole months and learning to "control his ki" as revealed several times during the series, which i've all addressed above^. There is no reason to assume he did achieve SSJ God, but there IS reason to assume he didn't.

But there is reason, I mean, SSB is a SSG using the SS form, that is a reason itself that heavily suggest he got the form before. It worked that way in the manga. Now, we all thought the anime was different, but, suddenly, we got Goku turning SSG again, debunking the only one time thing (unless they make the ritual), which had always been just a theory anyway, never stated. Also, I've read in other comments that Goku said about Vegeta that he got the power without the need of the ritual, that means he is speaking about the same thing, SSG. Goku kind of explains to Freeza what SSB is.

The problem with the anime is that Goku retained the SSG power into his base, but we just have to assume it was temporary. There are not two bases, just inconsistent power levels, Vegeta base stronger than SS3 Gotenks one of the worst ones.

Please not this again, i've had to endure this for more than 2 days straight by more than 95% of the fandom. SSJ Blue is NOT a Super Saiyan God in Super Saiyan Form, otherwise he'd be in God Mode with RED hair and it's lean and slimmed down body. Clearly all of these things, are self-evidently not the case with SSJ Blue. Why? Because Super Saiyan Blue is just regular Super Saiyan tapping into God ki (which we now know to be just regular ki controlled perfectly) so that it doesn't leak out of the users body into the area for others to pick up on and sense. It has NOTHING to do with SSJ God, and the fact that Vegeta achieved Blue on his own, withoht ever becoming a SSJ God proves that. When Whis told Goku and Vegeta to raise their ki only within their own bodies to avoid alerting their opponents, something strange happened after they did just that and started to collide their fists, SSJB's "BLUE ki" emerged! Also, you can't use the manga in this debate since that's clearly it's own continuity, and Toyotaro himself doesn't seem to understand how these God forms are supposed to work. Only logic and reason can reveal them. Vegeta may have achieved SSJ God in the Manga, but he sure as hell didn't achieve it in the Anime.

You are in denial, man. Toshio said it's SSG, it's the same hair, body and aura. SSB has all to do with SSG, it's the next step, it's SSGSS. I only bring the manga to the conversation because it's totally relevant in a SSG debate. But just with only anime information is enough too, why would Goku reference the need or not of the ritual when he was talking about Vegeta, if it's unrelated. It's in the name, SSGSS, dude. And explained, a SSG turned into SS. Vegeta may have achieved the form on his own, we may have not seen him using it, in the same way we did not see Goku use it since he fought with Beerus, but it's more logical that he got it than that he didn't.

[HeroR]

Because the writers have realized the debacle they've created by going back and forth on the god-absorbed base schtick, so they're trying to set things straight. Precisely what Toyotaro did months before.

They didn't go back and forward. Fans just decided to pretend Goku never absorbed Super Saiyan God despite the show saying that he did.

[GodKaio-Ken]

This argument doesn't work here. It's never been implied or even hinted that Vegeta achieved the actual SSJ God Form, all we know is that he was learning to control his ki so that it doesn't leak after having raised it, and boom, he turns Super Saiyan and voila, SSJ Blue was born. There are two different methods towards gaining God ki, and that is the Super Saiyan God ritual, or learning to control your ki to that of a divine level so it turns Blue. It's up to you to prove that Vegeta DID achieve SSJ God, not the other way around.

Instead of doing the SSJ God ritual and stealing the energy of 5 other saiyans, Vegeta got super-special training from the ultimate Grand Master, Whis, for 6 whole months! There was no need for the ritual, plus there weren't any saiyans around on Beerus' planet. It's extremely safe to say Vegeta didn't achieve SSJ God. That's not to say he won't in the future ofcourse!

How does that argument not work? Youre using your own head canon to disregard fact. I cant argue with that, its head canon.

I'm simply saying it cant be assumed he can or cant. Its never been implied either way.

Actually you're the one who's wrong in this one. There is no evidence that Vegeta ever achieved SSJ God offscreen, true or false? On the other hand, there IS evidence that suggests otherwise. I.e. Vegeta training with Whis instead for 6 whole months and learning to "control his ki" as revealed several times during the series, which i've all addressed above^. There is no reason to assume he did achieve SSJ God, but there IS reason to assume he didn't.

There is absolutely no reason to assume he didnt. Like I said youre taking a scene and adding tons of headcanon to it.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Okay, okay, okay, so to address the current debate, think of SSG and SSB like this.

SSG and SSB are like internet browsers, with SSG's POWER (not the form itself, just the power) being the internet. Both browsers (or transformations) are a form of accessing the internet (or SSG's power). SSG is like Mozilla Firefox, not quite as fast but less draining on your PC. SSB is like Google Chrome, very fast but much more draining.

So, basically, the SSG transformation is but one way of accessing SSG's power, whilst SSB is another way. Both have their strengths and weaknesses, but the source of their power is fundamentally the same.

As for SSG returning, I'm just gonna stick with my current headcanon that Goku and Vegeta could become SSG again anytime they wanted since they can clearly tap into that power for SSB, but generally don't because they prefer SSB for the most part.

[MKJ]

We will find out this week if they are going in a manga direction with this or not. I really hope they don't but if they do so be it. To me a ssb is a ssj with the KI ( not power) of a ssg. I see it as the best that they can express god ki right now. To me ssg in bog was only a glimpse of what is to come. So many view this (some writers included) through the Z logic of power level that they at times see the words KI and power as the same thing. In certain context maybe but in general they are not. Once they chose the word power instead of using the word ki there was no turning back with the fan base.
I have always viewed ssb and ssg as completely independent of one another. I wonder what the original intent was? We will most likely never know. No matter what i will still watch and enjoy. Just my head head Canon I guess.

[Saturnine]

Because the writers have realized the debacle they've created by going back and forth on the god-absorbed base schtick, so they're trying to set things straight. Precisely what Toyotaro did months before.

They didn't go back and forward. Fans just decided to pretend Goku never absorbed Super Saiyan God despite the show saying that he did.

The show sure did say it, but then it contradicted itself on numerous occasions through actions. And as we all know, actions speak louder than words. Well, maybe not all of us know it, but we should.

- base Cabba who had never even known Super Saiyan was a thing suddenly is able to match Vegeta; not possible at all if that's Vegeta who's absorbed the power of SSj God
- Same thing with Future Trunks and Goku
- SSj Blue was supposed to be the only way to go above Saiyan Beyond God. The reintroduciton of regular SSj forms was already an inconsistency in itself
- Goku required SSj2 to match Ultimate Gohan, while Saiyan Beyond God should be incomparably stronger than Ultimate Gohan, even with whatever further development he had made

The writers clearly at first intended for there to be SbG > SSj Blue, but just as clearly, they changed their minds at some point, probably so as to give Goku and Vegeta more room for development and to have an easier time creating fake drama.

[MKJ]

I guess to sum It all up there seem to be(at least) two lines of thought. One being a ssj with the power of a ssg with the word power taken at face value, and the other being a ssj with the power (ki) of a ssg. This is how it appears to me right now. I won't be surprised at all if the former is what they go with based on what I said in my previous post.

[HeroR]

The show sure did say it, but then it contradicted itself on numerous occasions through actions. And as we all know, actions speak louder than words. Well, maybe not all of us know it, but we should.

- base Cabba who had never even known Super Saiyan was a thing suddenly is able to match Vegeta; not possible at all if that's Vegeta who's absorbed the power of SSj God
- Same thing with Future Trunks and Goku
- SSj Blue was supposed to be the only way to go above Saiyan Beyond God. The reintroduciton of regular SSj forms was already an inconsistency in itself
- Goku required SSj2 to match Ultimate Gohan, while Saiyan Beyond God should be incomparably stronger than Ultimate Gohan, even with whatever further development he had made

The writers clearly at first intended for there to be SbG > SSj Blue, but just as clearly, they changed their minds at some point, probably so as to give Goku and Vegeta more room for development and to have an easier time creating fake drama.

None of that goes against Goku absorbing Super Saiyan God. That's you not like how strong certain characters are SBG was never a thing except in Heroes. Goku and Vegeta's base forms were just powerful.

And Future was never shown as Goku's equal until he got Rage.

[gofishus]

Actually you're the one who's wrong in this one. There is no evidence that Vegeta ever achieved SSJ God offscreen, true or false? On the other hand, there IS evidence that suggests otherwise. I.e. Vegeta training with Whis instead for 6 whole months and learning to "control his ki" as revealed several times during the series, which i've all addressed above^. There is no reason to assume he did achieve SSJ God, but there IS reason to assume he didn't.

But there is reason, I mean, SSB is a SSG using the SS form, that is a reason itself that heavily suggest he got the form before. It worked that way in the manga. Now, we all thought the anime was different, but, suddenly, we got Goku turning SSG again, debunking the only one time thing (unless they make the ritual), which had always been just a theory anyway, never stated. Also, I've read in other comments that Goku said about Vegeta that he got the power without the need of the ritual, that means he is speaking about the same thing, SSG. Goku kind of explains to Freeza what SSB is.

The problem with the anime is that Goku retained the SSG power into his base, but we just have to assume it was temporary. There are not two bases, just inconsistent power levels, Vegeta base stronger than SS3 Gotenks one of the worst ones.

Please not this again, i've had to endure this for more than 2 days straight by more than 95% of the fandom. SSJ Blue is NOT a Super Saiyan God in Super Saiyan Form, otherwise he'd be in God Mode with RED hair and it's lean and slimmed down body. Clearly all of these things, are self-evidently not the case with SSJ Blue. Why? Because Super Saiyan Blue is just regular Super Saiyan tapping into God ki (which we now know to be just regular ki controlled perfectly) so that it doesn't leak out of the users body into the area for others to pick up on and sense. It has NOTHING to do with SSJ God, and the fact that Vegeta achieved Blue on his own, withoht ever becoming a SSJ God proves that. When Whis told Goku and Vegeta to raise their ki only within their own bodies to avoid alerting their opponents, something strange happened after they did just that and started to collide their fists, SSJB's "BLUE ki" emerged! Also, you can't use the manga in this debate since that's clearly it's own continuity, and Toyotaro himself doesn't seem to understand how these God forms are supposed to work. Only logic and reason can reveal them. Vegeta may have achieved SSJ God in the Manga, but he sure as hell didn't achieve it in the Anime.

You are arguing like its something thats well established, when it just isn't. Unless Toriyama or Toyotaro themselves said that SSJ Blue is SEPARATE from SSG then you can't just take your own headcanon and assert it as a factual statement. As another poster said, if Vegeta achieves Blue it doesn't mean he doesn't have SSG. It was just never shown in the anime.

[Saturnine]

SSj Blue was clearly and blatantly said to be what happens "when a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God transforms into a Super Saiyan". That's going off the previous "god absorbed base" or "Saiyan beyond God" paradigm. Which has clearly been retconned and abandoned. Still, SSj Blue is pretty much the SSj form of SSj God, no idea how taht's not the case, frankly.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

SSj Blue was clearly and blatantly said to be what happens "when a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God transforms into a Super Saiyan". That's going off the previous "god absorbed base" or "Saiyan beyond God" paradigm. Which has clearly been retconned and abandoned. Still, SSj Blue is pretty much the SSj form of SSj God, no idea how taht's not the case, frankly.

You know, I've seen people bring up how there must be a godly base to turn SS from to get SSB, especially from Two-Base Theory believers. I've debated that notion before under different premises, but now that I've contributed to this thread, I think I can re-clarify my opposition better.

According to that old movie pamphlet brought up, Goku and Vegeta must gain control over godly power and then turn SS, right? Well, why does that mean they have to necessarily get stronger from it? Gaining control over SSG's power doesn't necessarily entail being able to use it to get stronger right away.

The headcanon I brought up earlier is predicated on the notion that Goku and Vegeta use the perfect Ki control taught to them by Whis to gain control of SSG's power without a ritual so that they can either transform into the SSG form itself or turn SS and create SSB. Well, we can add onto this by stating that gaining control over SSG's power doesn't increase power in and of itself, merely allows you to access it and enhance it if you know, via turning into a SSG or turning SS and evolving that power further.

[Marlowe89]

As Saturnine said, most supplementary materials for the original RoF film make it abundantly clear that Blue/SSGSS is the Super Saiyan form of a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God, not the Super Saiyan form of Super Saiyan God directly per se. These materials include the RoF art pamphlet, a story scenario in Dokkan Battle, the RoF tie-in manga, and Goku's own explanation for the form in RoF and in Super; the first two of those are the most explicit in explaining that Goku obtained the power of SSG without changing form and that Blue was supposed to be the Super Saiyan level of that state, with Dokkan Battle even explaining that this is why the form is called "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan". From a design standpoint, this all makes sense because Blue is essentially a palette swap of the first Super Saiyan stage and doesn't particularly resemble any of Super Saiyan God's unique traits.

However, the English version of Dragon Ball Fusions suggests that the form is a combination of Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan. I have no idea how accurate the localization's translation is, but there's that, and with "Saiyan Beyond God" seemingly getting retconned from Super's official continuity you could make an argument that aligns with Fusions' description (although I think that still clashes somewhat with its design and appearance). Then there's the DBS manga which suggests Blue and Rosé to be an alternate, much stronger version of Super Saiyan that simply changes color upon surpassing God. Perhaps it's merely Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God.

Ultimately, we don't really know what Blue is supposed to be anymore. The best we can do at this juncture is speculate and hypothesize until further clarification is provided, which might never happen.

[TheShadowEmperor8055]

[spoiler]Yeah, the episode doesn't even explain how Goku reaccessed SSG, he just does it (he also uses the exact same tactic Vegeta used against Black Rose in the manga, switching between SSG and SSB). And yet that hilariously doesn't surprise me. Pfft... Super... what can ya do?[/spoiler]

[Danfun64]

At this point I've just about given up on DBS as being a serious continuation of DB. Between Gohan's inexplicable defeating of Botamo and SSG returning with zero explanation; not to mention how SSG and SSB don't work that well when reading a black and white manga (it violates the "show, don't tell" aspect), I just... the anime isn't even trying anymore. If those two things are explained in a later episode in the saga, I might jump back on ship...but now...

...DB Super abandoned internal consistency for (admittedly funny) laughs and battles that are flashy but make no sense. Granted, pre-Super media had its moments, but never to this extreme.

Is DB Super defensible any more, or has it jumped the shark for you?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

At this point I've just about given up on DBS as being a serious continuation of DB. Between Gohan's inexplicable defeating of Botamo and SSG returning with zero explanation; not to mention how SSG and SSB don't work that well when reading a black and white manga (it violates the "show, don't tell" aspect), I just... the anime isn't even trying anymore. If those two things are explained in a later episode in the saga, I might jump back on ship...but now...

...DB Super abandoned internal consistency for (admittedly funny) laughs and battles that are flashy but make no sense. Granted, pre-Super media had its moments, but never to this extreme.

Is DB Super defensible any more, or has it jumped the shark for you?

The rest of the vocal internet audience seems to disagree, as does Japan's watchers.

Of course, this is a purely by-the-numbers analysis, and not a critical one.