Since this isn't going to get explained ...

[BlueBasilisk]

It's curious that neither the anime nor the manga explain how Goku (or Vegeta) still have the god form. They just do. And it even pops up in a tournament for the same reasons. I guess the simplest explanation is that since Blue doesn't have an activation penalty in the anime and only hurts for long-term endurance, Goku never needed to use it. The most questionable aspects here are the multiple fights with Black and Zamasu, but those did happen in multiple parts with resting and healing in between and there's no indication of how long those fights took in-universe. Especially now that we see Super does run on Frieza Time when it wants to.

[Lord Beerus]

To be fair, time moves incredibly slow in the Tournament Of Power arc. In-universe, Goku has used SSJB about 4 times but only for like 10-15 seconds at the most in each occasion. It's not like SSJB has the crippling power and stamina issue like SSJ3 has. It just drains you stamina over an unspecified period of time.

Doesn't the Hit fight have him refrain from even turning it on because its too costly? Where's Super Saiyan God in that fight, for instance? In fact, if Blue being fine for little bursts is a thing, why does any inferior SS form get used at all? Just have him fart Blue out for a bit to kick someone's ass momentarily then turn it off to conserve power.

No. Goku says he doesn't turn into Blue against Hit because it burns him out fast, not because the mere act of turning it on is costly. He didn't want to waste stamina in the time it took for him to figure how to counter Tokitobashi. Why he doesn't go God? Well, that's the question of the day isn't it?

I figured the reason Goku didn't use SSJG against Hit was because he saw SSJB Vegeta getting absolutley pummeled by Hit and it made his think going SSJG wasn't worth it.

[ekrolo2]

Doesn't the Hit fight have him refrain from even turning it on because its too costly? Where's Super Saiyan God in that fight, for instance? In fact, if Blue being fine for little bursts is a thing, why does any inferior SS form get used at all? Just have him fart Blue out for a bit to kick someone's ass momentarily then turn it off to conserve power.

No. Goku says he doesn't turn into Blue against Hit because it burns him out fast, not because the mere act of turning it on is costly. He didn't want to waste stamina in the time it took for him to figure how to counter Tokitobashi. Why he doesn't go God? Well, that's the question of the day isn't it?

I figured the reason Goku didn't use SSJG against Hit was because he saw SSJB Vegeta getting absolutley pummeled by Hit and it made his think going SSJG wasn't worth it.

Why'd he waste time fighting in Base and use Blue's stamina issues as an excuse then?

[GodKaio-Ken]

I've always assumed he had it. After fighting Beerus and losing the form he obviously regained it at some point. Thats always been my canon.

[Draconic]

Doesn't the Hit fight have him refrain from even turning it on because its too costly? Where's Super Saiyan God in that fight, for instance? In fact, if Blue being fine for little bursts is a thing, why does any inferior SS form get used at all? Just have him fart Blue out for a bit to kick someone's ass momentarily then turn it off to conserve power.

No. Goku says he doesn't turn into Blue against Hit because it burns him out fast, not because the mere act of turning it on is costly. He didn't want to waste stamina in the time it took for him to figure how to counter Tokitobashi. Why he doesn't go God? Well, that's the question of the day isn't it?

I figured the reason Goku didn't use SSJG against Hit was because he saw SSJB Vegeta getting absolutley pummeled by Hit and it made his think going SSJG wasn't worth it.

His whole plan for that was getting his ass kicked a little to figure out how to counter Hit. I don't think any form would matter much, as long as it isn't Blue, but between base and God, the latter just gives him a better chance to actually survive this plan.

[TheMikado]

I think that is the easiest explanation, but then how does Base Goku vs. Monaka-Beerus get explained? Because Goku was crazy strong and Beerus seemed to put some effort into this. Is his Base really strong too? I just get confused by the way this is shown.

Well, I suggest you to ignore some content you see in Dragon Ball Super. You know, this show is not exempt from having filler scenes or even actual sagas, just like Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z had. I think it's pretty clear that what happens between the sagas that we know Toriyama is involved (Universe 6 saga, Future Trunks saga and Universe Survival saga only) are not meant to be taken seriously. If you do, you'll just end up confused as you already are. Also, try not to put too much thought on the power level subject.

But yes, Universe Survival's saga base Goku is strong, obviously. That's the ultimate law in Dragon Ball, keep getting stronger as time passes/sagas start and end. He's stronger now than he was in Future Trunks saga (as Future Trunks' saga base Goku was stronger than Universe 6's saga base Goku and etc).

There is no such thing as filler. This has already been established by the mods.

[Draconic]

I think that is the easiest explanation, but then how does Base Goku vs. Monaka-Beerus get explained? Because Goku was crazy strong and Beerus seemed to put some effort into this. Is his Base really strong too? I just get confused by the way this is shown.

Well, I suggest you to ignore some content you see in Dragon Ball Super. You know, this show is not exempt from having filler scenes or even actual sagas, just like Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z had. I think it's pretty clear that what happens between the sagas that we know Toriyama is involved (Universe 6 saga, Future Trunks saga and Universe Survival saga only) are not meant to be taken seriously. If you do, you'll just end up confused as you already are. Also, try not to put too much thought on the power level subject.

But yes, Universe Survival's saga base Goku is strong, obviously. That's the ultimate law in Dragon Ball, keep getting stronger as time passes/sagas start and end. He's stronger now than he was in Future Trunks saga (as Future Trunks' saga base Goku was stronger than Universe 6's saga base Goku and etc).

There is no such thing as filler. This has already been established by the mods.

Filler is a loose term used here. But there's certainly Toei exclusive stuff that Toriyama has no hand in writing and so, when writing his outline, doesn't take into account.
It doesn't change the fact the biggest problem, Goku's strong base, originates in a Toriyama story, but when you try to understand what the fuck is going on in his stories, it's best to exclude stuff like Copy-Vegeta or Monaka-Beerus. Sure, this doesn't solve the problems, but it gives a better outlook at what the guy coming out with the plots is actually thinking when writing.

[Lord Beerus]

Why'd he waste time fighting in Base and use Blue's stamina issues as an excuse then?

He wanted to pace himself and he enjoys a challenge. It's nothing new for Goku.

His whole plan for that was getting his ass kicked a little to figure out how to counter Hit. I don't think any form would matter much, as long as it isn't Blue, but between base and God, the latter just gives him a better chance to actually survive this plan.

Fair point. I guess Goku was just confident enough the he could figure out how to counter Hit's Time-Skip quick enough that he wouldn't have gotten beaten in his base form before then.

[TheMikado]

Well, I suggest you to ignore some content you see in Dragon Ball Super. You know, this show is not exempt from having filler scenes or even actual sagas, just like Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z had. I think it's pretty clear that what happens between the sagas that we know Toriyama is involved (Universe 6 saga, Future Trunks saga and Universe Survival saga only) are not meant to be taken seriously. If you do, you'll just end up confused as you already are. Also, try not to put too much thought on the power level subject.

But yes, Universe Survival's saga base Goku is strong, obviously. That's the ultimate law in Dragon Ball, keep getting stronger as time passes/sagas start and end. He's stronger now than he was in Future Trunks saga (as Future Trunks' saga base Goku was stronger than Universe 6's saga base Goku and etc).

There is no such thing as filler. This has already been established by the mods.

Filler is a loose term used here. But there's certainly Toei exclusive stuff that Toriyama has no hand in writing and so, when writing his outline, doesn't take into account.
It doesn't change the fact the biggest problem, Goku's strong base, originates in a Toriyama story, but when you try to understand what the fuck is going on in his stories, it's best to exclude stuff like Copy-Vegeta or Monaka-Beerus. Sure, this doesn't solve the problems, but it gives a better outlook at what the guy coming out with the plots is actually thinking when writing.

Well if we're going to do that then you might as well go by the Super manga. The outline isn't the product, the anime is the product. It's no different than looking at the building and saying well that sag in the actual building shouldn't be there so just ignore it because it wasn't in the architects original design. I'm not getting this mentality. If Toriyama wanted to or cared enough about the story to write a full script or at least make sure the anime didn't F&ck up his plot and story, he would have. I'm not sure how anyone can still think he personally reviews the storylines and scripts after he sends whatever he does to Toei. Either that doesn't happen or he doesn't care enough about he quality of his own work to care if a coherent story is made. It's not like a casual fan watching the dub is going to know what Toriyama wrote and what he didn't. The show doesn't make any sense without that out of universe content which indicates a poor stand alone product.

Basically I'm saying we keep trying to pass Super off as something Toriyama personal works on and reviews, but only certain parts, but obviously he's not involved enough or doesn't care enough that to make sure the product is consistent throughout.

[ekrolo2]

Why'd he waste time fighting in Base and use Blue's stamina issues as an excuse then?

He wanted to pace himself and he enjoys a challenge. It's nothing new for Goku.

His whole plan for that was getting his ass kicked a little to figure out how to counter Hit. I don't think any form would matter much, as long as it isn't Blue, but between base and God, the latter just gives him a better chance to actually survive this plan.

Fair point. I guess Goku was just confident enough the he could figure out how to counter Hit's Time-Skip quick enough that he wouldn't have gotten beaten in his base form before then.

Goku's base must not be far below Blue if he thinks that plan isn't monstrously retarded.

[Draconic]

There is no such thing as filler. This has already been established by the mods.

Filler is a loose term used here. But there's certainly Toei exclusive stuff that Toriyama has no hand in writing and so, when writing his outline, doesn't take into account.
It doesn't change the fact the biggest problem, Goku's strong base, originates in a Toriyama story, but when you try to understand what the fuck is going on in his stories, it's best to exclude stuff like Copy-Vegeta or Monaka-Beerus. Sure, this doesn't solve the problems, but it gives a better outlook at what the guy coming out with the plots is actually thinking when writing.

Well if we're going to do that then you might as well go by the Super manga. The outline isn't the product, the anime is the product. It's no different than looking at the building and saying well that sag in the actual building shouldn't be there so just ignore it because it wasn't in the architects original design. I'm not getting this mentality. If Toriyama wanted to or cared enough about the story to write a full script or at least make sure the anime didn't F&ck up his plot and story, he would have. I'm not sure how anyone can still think he personally reviews the storylines and scripts after he sends whatever he does to Toei. Either that doesn't happen or he doesn't care enough about he quality of his own work to care if a coherent story is made. It's not like a casual fan watching the dub is going to know what Toriyama wrote and what he didn't. The show doesn't make any sense without that out of universe content which indicates a poor stand alone product.

Basically I'm saying we keep trying to pass Super off as something Toriyama personal works on and reviews, but only certain parts, but obviously he's not involved enough or doesn't care enough that to make sure the product is consistent throughout.

I'm not trying to say that we should ignore those parts and then act like everything is perfect. I'm saying ignoring that stuff and focusing on the plots gives up what the author is thinking when writing. After that we consider the Toei things as well and piece together what goes wrong, where it went wrong, if it went wrong, maybe even why it went wrong. Going around spewing things like "the power levels are fucked", "the writers don't care", "Toriyama is senile" is fine and all, but that's not how you try to have a worthwhile discussion. And that's not only tied to the power scaling, but the overall plots as well.

Casual fans don't go on forums, especially nieche ones like Kanzenshuu, to discuss the show. Most probably don't even care about those problems, if they even realize there are ones.

[Lord Beerus]

Why'd he waste time fighting in Base and use Blue's stamina issues as an excuse then?

He wanted to pace himself and he enjoys a challenge. It's nothing new for Goku.

His whole plan for that was getting his ass kicked a little to figure out how to counter Hit. I don't think any form would matter much, as long as it isn't Blue, but between base and God, the latter just gives him a better chance to actually survive this plan.

Fair point. I guess Goku was just confident enough the he could figure out how to counter Hit's Time-Skip quick enough that he wouldn't have gotten beaten in his base form before then.

Goku's base must not be far below Blue if he thinks that plan isn't monstrously retarded.

Well... I just chalk it up as Goku being a daredevil and an unnecessary risk-taker, like usual.

[ekrolo2]

He wanted to pace himself and he enjoys a challenge. It's nothing new for Goku.


Fair point. I guess Goku was just confident enough the he could figure out how to counter Hit's Time-Skip quick enough that he wouldn't have gotten beaten in his base form before then.

Goku's base must not be far below Blue if he thinks that plan isn't monstrously retarded.

Well... I just chalk it up as Goku being a daredevil and an unnecessary risk-taker, like usual.

Goku usually doesn't take risks that one sided against him, he saw Vegeta get beaten in Blue so he should logically either use Blue himself or a form very close to it if we're actually gonna take anime Blue's stamina issues as a serious factor for consideration.

[Lord Beerus]

Goku's base must not be far below Blue if he thinks that plan isn't monstrously retarded.

Well... I just chalk it up as Goku being a daredevil and an unnecessary risk-taker, like usual.

Goku usually doesn't take risks that one sided against him, he saw Vegeta get beaten in Blue so he should logically either use Blue himself or a form very close to it if we're actually gonna take anime Blue's stamina issues as a serious factor for consideration.

Yeah, I guess he should have. But as you said, with the stamina issues that SSJB has, I guess Goku didn't want to go all out from the get-go and potential burn through a good chunk of the power SSJB before figuring out in time how to counter Hit's Time-Skip ability. And, this is the same guy that let Vegeta live after he crippled him and nearly literally crushed him. Just saiyan...

[ekrolo2]

Well... I just chalk it up as Goku being a daredevil and an unnecessary risk-taker, like usual.

Goku usually doesn't take risks that one sided against him, he saw Vegeta get beaten in Blue so he should logically either use Blue himself or a form very close to it if we're actually gonna take anime Blue's stamina issues as a serious factor for consideration.

Yeah, I guess he should have. But as you said, with the stamina issues that SSJB has, I guess Goku didn't want to go all out from the get-go and potential burn through a good chunk of the power SSJB before figuring out in time how to counter Hit's Time-Skip ability. And, this is the same guy that let Vegeta live after he crippled him and nearly literally crushed him. Just saiyan...

No, I mean, why not use God then? That essentially puts him in God tier without Blue's stamina issues (bwahahhaha, sorry, I can't take this fucking statement seriously for the anime) and ensures he won't get knocked out of the ring if Hit so much as farts in his general direction.

[TheShadowEmperor8055]

Who knows? Maybe it could get explained in later episodes

Jokes aside, an in-universe reason as to why Goku is using a form he hasn't used in 90 episodes seems unlikely to come, cuz Super. But that also begs the question, what was Goku doing in his second battle vs Freeza and his second battle vs Beerus (Monaka)? Why was that "God ki base form" stored away if it "sapped less strength" than other SS forms?

Either way, Super doesn't do a good job at explaining things in-universe. Though one could come up with a lot of out-of-universe reasons for it.

[Lord Beerus]

Goku usually doesn't take risks that one sided against him, he saw Vegeta get beaten in Blue so he should logically either use Blue himself or a form very close to it if we're actually gonna take anime Blue's stamina issues as a serious factor for consideration.

Yeah, I guess he should have. But as you said, with the stamina issues that SSJB has, I guess Goku didn't want to go all out from the get-go and potential burn through a good chunk of the power SSJB before figuring out in time how to counter Hit's Time-Skip ability. And, this is the same guy that let Vegeta live after he crippled him and nearly literally crushed him. Just saiyan...

No, I mean, why not use God then? That essentially puts him in God tier without Blue's stamina issues (bwahahhaha, sorry, I can't take this fucking statement seriously for the anime) and ensures he won't get knocked out of the ring if Hit so much as farts in his general direction.

I don't know why he didn't use SSJG then against Hit. I guess he thought he would try out his luck in his base form before he cranked it up to SSJB. The same thing happens in the manga. And to Goku's credit, he figured out how to counter Hit's Time-Skip quite quickly before Hit could so serious damage. And the Dragon Ball universe does practically bends over to Goku's will in battle.

[ChiefWamsutta]

Yeah, I guess he should have. But as you said, with the stamina issues that SSJB has, I guess Goku didn't want to go all out from the get-go and potential burn through a good chunk of the power SSJB before figuring out in time how to counter Hit's Time-Skip ability. And, this is the same guy that let Vegeta live after he crippled him and nearly literally crushed him. Just saiyan...

No, I mean, why not use God then? That essentially puts him in God tier without Blue's stamina issues (bwahahhaha, sorry, I can't take this fucking statement seriously for the anime) and ensures he won't get knocked out of the ring if Hit so much as farts in his general direction.

I don't know why he didn't use SSJG then against Hit. I guess he thought he would try out his luck in his base form before he cranked it up to SSJB. The same thing happens in the manga. And to Goku's credit, he figured out how to counter Hit's Time-Skip quite quickly before Hit could so serious damage. And the Dragon Ball universe does practically bends over to Goku's will in battle.

@Lord Beerus , @ekrolo2: I can totally understand the premise behind this question. People would think that based on how we have seen Goku's Base form expressed in the show (assumed to be weaker than Hit), why would he choose a form with such a power gap between Hit and himself? The punches Hit gave him would do far more damage if he were in a Base form. This same premise goes for Monaka-Beerus, as we can see that Goku's Base is NOT as strong as a Super Saiyan God. That form he was using versus Monaka-Beerus was probably around the strength, which is inconsistent with Goku's Base form now. By extension this applies to the Copy-Vegeta vs. Gotenks moment. If the anime is taking elements from the manga where Goku has Super Saiyan God, and he transforms back-and-forth between red and blue, then I would not put it past them to give Vegeta the Super Saiyan God form. But this conflicts with the episodes of Vegeta having achieved SSBlue through other means of training.

Keep in mind this is just my random fucking idea: what I think happened is that Vegeta and Goku both reached SSGod separately (Goku on earth and Vegeta on Beerus' planet). They then both absorbed the power. They can access god power in partial bits, which results in SBG and explains the Base Goku vs. Hit, Base Goku vs. Monaka-Beerus, and Copy-Vegeta vs. Gotenks. Transforming into a Super Saiyan results in blue when tapping into this god power. At some point between the Future Trunks arc and the Universe Survival arc, since there is a time gap, they unlocked the full god power which results in using SSGod again. They always could use it, as they both absorbed it; however, they were not trained enough to pull it out again, resulting in SBG. They could always go SUper Saiyan though, resulting in SSBlue.

Like I said, this is my own random fucking idea, but it kinda does help explain some things.

[ekrolo2]

@Lord Beerus , @ekrolo2: I can totally understand the premise behind this question. People would think that based on how we have seen Goku's Base form expressed in the show (assumed to be weaker than Hit), why would he choose a form with such a power gap between Hit and himself? The punches Hit gave him would do far more damage if he were in a Base form. This same premise goes for Monaka-Beerus, as we can see that Goku's Base is NOT as strong as a Super Saiyan God. That form he was using versus Monaka-Beerus was probably around the strength, which is inconsistent with Goku's Base form now. By extension this applies to the Copy-Vegeta vs. Gotenks moment. If the anime is taking elements from the manga where Goku has Super Saiyan God, and he transforms back-and-forth between red and blue, then I would not put it past them to give Vegeta the Super Saiyan God form. But this conflicts with the episodes of Vegeta having achieved SSBlue through other means of training.

Keep in mind this is just my random fucking idea: what I think happened is that Vegeta and Goku both reached SSGod separately (Goku on earth and Vegeta on Beerus' planet). They then both absorbed the power. They can access god power in partial bits, which results in SBG and explains the Base Goku vs. Hit, Base Goku vs. Monaka-Beerus, and Copy-Vegeta vs. Gotenks. Transforming into a Super Saiyan results in blue when tapping into this god power. At some point between the Future Trunks arc and the Universe Survival arc, since there is a time gap, they unlocked the full god power which results in using SSGod again. They always could use it, as they both absorbed it; however, they were not trained enough to pull it out again, resulting in SBG.

Like I said, this is my own random fucking idea, but it kinda does help explain some things.

I like to sum it up with "Super's shit people" because that's really all there is to it.

On a side note, I love the fact Gods back just so people can't tell me "Blue is Goku & Vegeta accessing the power of God!" as a way to work around the fact it's old definition "A Super Saiyan for a Saiyan who has the power of a God" doesn't work anymore.

[ChiefWamsutta]

I like to sum it up with "Super's shit people" because that's really all there is to it.

On a side note, I love the fact Gods back just so people can't tell me "Blue is Goku & Vegeta accessing the power of God!" as a way to work around the fact it's old definition "A Super Saiyan for a Saiyan who has the power of a God" doesn't work anymore.

Oh, the show definitely is fucking horseshit. It took until last night's episode for me to fully realize that. I was so pissed off I was yelling at my TV screen because I was just sick of the writers of this show thinking it is acceptable to feed us shit and we'll eat it up without a better explanation.

It is stupid as hell that I have to bend over backwards to create my own three paragraph headcanon, that I just tagged you in, only to explain things.