People are getting tired of Goku and here is why

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Re: People are getting tired of Goku and here is why

Post by namekiansaiyan » Tue Aug 22, 2017 6:53 pm

Simere wrote:In 102 Goku fought Su Roas for 37 seconds and didn't get anywhere with her. Meanwhile 17 knocked out two of the other fighters in spectacular fashion and ease, cementing himself as a fan favorite from this arc. Continuing into 103, he fights with Ribrianne and shows no sign of being overwhelmed. Meanwhile, Goku's still fighting Su Roas. 17 is so nonplussed by Ribrianne that he jumps in to defend Goku from Su Roas.

Goku can't have any presence if this ranks as overshadowing.

Goku did worse against Dyspo than Hit did. It seemed like he had his number, but the last thing we saw of their fight was Goku being knocked back and Dyspo standing there with a cocky/confident attitude. Then Hit takes over and completely dominates him. And he takes down Kunshi, who he also tactically dominated earlier.
Until the real players come in to play and he gets knocked out resulting in this little obsession with 17 ending. Hit in episode 104 was 10x better than 17.

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Re: People are getting tired of Goku and here is why

Post by HeroR » Tue Aug 22, 2017 11:04 pm

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
Totamo wrote: Actually, it did feel force because Goku was removed from the story and was only used as a plot device.
Yes, this is in particular from the Android arc onward, the whole convoluted way Toriyama went to take Goku out, the heart virus, and wrote Goku like the absolute stupidest he ever had "I won't take the medicine right now as there is nothing wrong with me" WTF Goku. Goku got written out in the Saiyan and Namek out quite naturally but after it definitely felt forced, and the Buu arc Goku was a literal plot device for anything his behaviour in that arc was unbelievable he'd go from 0-100 quickly, for example he was pro-Fusion for the majority arc and then decides "nah fusion isn't for me" and then a few seconds later starts saying "Oh we should have beat you as Vegetto" and I am there pulling my hair out.
Goku missing most of Namek made sense since he got hurt in the previous arc. Goku missing almost all of Freeza's fight was forced since he was only allowed to come back to beat up the Ginyu Force, get hurt again, and then forced on the benched until Freeza went into his final form, because god-forbid Goku being there from the start. The podcast on this site lampshaded this.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: People are getting tired of Goku and here is why

Post by sintzu » Tue Aug 22, 2017 11:44 pm

TBMx wrote:I don't understand what the writers are hoping to achieve by doing it the way they are.
They most likely think people will lose interest if Goku isn't there every 10 seconds or that people will forget about him somehow.
perucho1990 wrote:Maybe its part of Toriyamas outline, if it happens the same in the manga, then it will be all Toriyama..
The manga starts out completely different with Vegeta fighting Beerus so chnaces are the tournament will also be different.
Mercenary wrote:As for other animes - yes, the main protagonist doesn't has to be always around but not in DB.
Never mind the fact he wasn't always around in Z, DB's most popular and successful part.
fadeddreams5 wrote:Remember this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmW4dB7BaBg

The show does not treat this as a joke; the scene is taken very seriously. This scene here, everything that occurs in it, has literally become the biggest running joke in Super, which is infuriating.
Most of Super's anime is treated as a joke. If a scene itself isn't a joke then surely it'll be cutting to jokes in the background.
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Re: People are getting tired of Goku and here is why

Post by TekTheNinja » Wed Aug 23, 2017 12:28 am

Last episode was the perfect example of this. It could have very well been a great Hit-only episode, but they shoehorned Goku into it.

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Re: People are getting tired of Goku and here is why

Post by The gr » Wed Aug 23, 2017 12:31 am

TekTheNinja wrote:Last episode was the perfect example of this. It could have very well been a great Hit-only episode, but they shoehorned Goku into it.
Instead of being hit only,why not frost,it would be nice to see frost saving hit or at least one of his comrade that isnt kale
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Re: People are getting tired of Goku and here is why

Post by Duo » Wed Aug 23, 2017 12:38 am

TekTheNinja wrote:Last episode was the perfect example of this. It could have very well been a great Hit-only episode, but they shoehorned Goku into it.
I've been tired of Goku since 2002, but this complaint doesn't make much sense to me anymore. The main character is always going to show up in his own show. The fact that half of the episode happened without any universe 7 characters (sans one comment from Kaioshin and Beerus) is a miracle. I'm surprised so few others noticed the relevance of that.

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Re: People are getting tired of Goku and here is why

Post by TekTheNinja » Wed Aug 23, 2017 12:54 am

Duo wrote:
TekTheNinja wrote:Last episode was the perfect example of this. It could have very well been a great Hit-only episode, but they shoehorned Goku into it.
I've been tired of Goku since 2002, but this complaint doesn't make much sense to me anymore. The main character is always going to show up in his own show. The fact that half of the episode happened without any universe 7 characters (sans one comment from Kaioshin and Beerus) is a miracle. I'm surprised so few others noticed the relevance of that.
In MOST shows (Including DBZ) they can go at least ONE episode without it's main character. Fullmetal Alchemist had a fairly big portion where Edward wasn't around and I loved it. Ed's probably my favorite anime character of all time, but EVERY character needs a damn break now and then.
The gr wrote:
TekTheNinja wrote:Last episode was the perfect example of this. It could have very well been a great Hit-only episode, but they shoehorned Goku into it.
Instead of being hit only,why not frost,it would be nice to see frost saving hit or at least one of his comrade that isnt kale
That would have been badass and would have made much more sense. After all Frost all but disappeared after eliminating Krillin. I wouldn't have minded if the saiyan girls stepped in even, because they're just kinda watching when Hit's getting thrashed.

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Re: People are getting tired of Goku and here is why

Post by NintendoBlaze53 » Wed Aug 23, 2017 1:39 am

From what I can see, Goku isn't being forced in, but he's being the central object to drive the story forward. Every interaction Goku has had in this arc has been something to help other characters. Goku helped Caulifla learn SSj2 and Kale got SSj under control due to Goku. Without Goku, Hit might have been eliminated. All the Universes have a vendetta around Goku due to him triggering this tournament. Zen-Oh is obsessed with Goku. You can't say Goku is being forced into the story when everything in this story happened BECAUSE of Goku.

And don't act like this are is JUST Goku. 17 has become a fan favorite for a lot of people now. Freeza is back with a perfected Golden Form, Roshi got over his woman problem and has an episode for himself next week, Kuririn got an episode to himself with 18 sharing, Gohan is the team leader and got some character development with the eradication of U10. The only ones from U7 who haven't been in the spotlight yet are Piccolo, Tenshinhan and Vegeta, all who will definitely get their shining spot.

This whole arc has almost seemed like a character study of Goku. Going more into detail with his Saiyan side and fighting addiction then ever before. To the point where he doesn't even care about killing other Universes. I highly doubt Goku being so selfish is played for laughs, at the end of this arc Goku's carelessness will be addressed in some form, and if it isn't I'll admit I was wrong. Either way why are we judging this arc in the middle of it? Midway through the Namek arc you can complain about the lack of Goku, midway through the Saiyan arc you can complain about the lack of Goku. All topics like this do is yet again remind us of how different it is watching Dragon Ball weekly as opposed to daily or marathoning like so many of us did with Z.
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Re: People are getting tired of Goku and here is why

Post by emi_b7 » Wed Aug 23, 2017 3:07 am

I don't think it's been that much of a problem. They are actually trying to develop his relationships with other characters, that's why he's been present so much, he isn't actually accomplishing a lot, eliminations wise, since ep 98. I would be more worried or annoyed if he was just getting random fights and eliminating people every week.

Let's go episode by episode:
-97 and 98: both the scene with Nink in ep 97 and the whole thing with U9 in ep 98 were there to show how every universe is going against Goku. That was a pretty big point before the tournament. I actually think they did a pretty bad job with this, I was hoping for more Goku-Bergamo interactions but whatever. Anyway, ep 97 wasn't really Goku centric and in 98 he shared the spotlight with Vegeta at least.
-99: this one had little to no Goku at all. It was a Krillin-18 vs U4 dogs episode with Vegeta vs BotaMagetta as the secondary fight that didn't actually go anywhere.
-100: Kale-Caulifla-Goku episode. Again, they want to establish some relationship between Goku and the U6 girls, it wasn't just fighting. Let's hope it eventually goes somewhere (either on the ToP or on a future arc).
-101: this one probably had a bit more Goku than needed, they should have focused a bit more on the androids or show Freeza vs Murichim or something. Still, there had to be some Goku here because of the saiyan girls. He was hardly the focus of the episode though.
-102 and 103: this 2 are the ones I agree that are BS. Both episodes have other characters in the main role (17-Ribrianne-Kakunsa in 102 and Gohan-Obuni in 103) with Goku vs Su Roas as a secondary fight (especially in 103, in 102 it was just a couple of scenes but Goku also gets some scenes during their transformation). There was no need to have Goku fighting that girl, they should have used Cabba, Frost or someone from another universe, like Ganos or some robot.
-104: Hit vs Dyspo, with Goku and Kunshi joining in the second half. I liked how they portrayed Goku's relationship with Hit, I don't think it was as necesary to have this as the other cases (Goku vs U9 or Goku-U6 saiyans) but I have no problems with it because it was great.

We have: 3 episodes with Goku in the spotlight (98, 100 and 104), 4 episodes with Goku in a secondary role but with significant screen time (97, 101, 102 and 103) and only one where he doesn't do much (99).

So, I kind of agree that he's been used a bit too much but I think it was only a problem in episodes 102 and 103, if you take Goku out of those 2 episodes it would have been fine IMO. In the other cases they were building on Goku's relationships with other people (Hit, U9) or establishing new ones (Kale, Cauli). Now that those things are out of the way, the only thing they HAVE to do with him is make him interact with Toppo and Jiren, but I don't think that will happen until closer to the end so maybe Goku will get a rest for a couple of weeks. Here's hoping we get more episodes similar to 99 with focus on different characters and less random Goku-Su Roas fights. I think (hope?) the next couple of episodes won't have as much Goku. I want my boy Tenshinhan to get some fight soon though.

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Re: People are getting tired of Goku and here is why

Post by TBMx » Wed Aug 23, 2017 5:06 am

Him having a lot of screen time without eliminating people, makes his presence more pointless and inexplicable, not less.

And Goku making it all about other character's relationship with him instead of with each other is a big sign of Mary Sueism. To put it into perspective, they're foreshadowing Goku vs Hit again, when they've already fought twice before. Every recruitment episode was about each character in question relates to Goku while other characters just waited and did nothing, reminiscent of GT's Shadow Dragon Saga. Kale's transformation was focused on Goku, Caulifla's ascension was about Goku, just about all of Hit's characterization is how he relates to Goku. It'd be one thing if Goku was this wonderfully layered and complex character that is worth all this attention, but he's just a fight junkie and nothing more.

DBS is the TFS Goku played straight. And that's terrible.

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Re: People are getting tired of Goku and here is why

Post by coola » Wed Aug 23, 2017 6:49 am

In my opinion, Goku is one of very few anime characters, that got worse as story progress, and i admit i also got tired of him, and i hope something bad happens that wont be able to be reveresed, maybe then he will finally stop being so childish and battle obsessed to point of complaining that 17 attacked, before enemy finish their move,
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Re: People are getting tired of Goku and here is why

Post by Jigurashi » Wed Aug 23, 2017 6:59 am

coola wrote:In my opinion, Goku is one of very few anime characters, that got worse as story progress, and i admit i also got tired of him, and i hope something bad happens that wont be able to be reveresed, maybe then he will finally stop being so childish and battle obsessed to point of complaining that 17 attacked, before enemy finish their move,
You already know he isn't changing lol.

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Re: People are getting tired of Goku and here is why

Post by HeroR » Wed Aug 23, 2017 7:00 am

coola wrote:In my opinion, Goku is one of very few anime characters, that got worse as story progress, and i admit i also got tired of him, and i hope something bad happens that wont be able to be reveresed, maybe then he will finally stop being so childish and battle obsessed to point of complaining that 17 attacked, before enemy finish their move,
That already happened. The entire future timeline got erased and that didn't change Goku. So hoping some kind of trauma makes Goku less battle obsessed is like hoping that Gohan will be the main character.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: People are getting tired of Goku and here is why

Post by Michsi » Wed Aug 23, 2017 7:35 am

coola wrote:In my opinion, Goku is one of very few anime characters, that got worse as story progress, and i admit i also got tired of him, and i hope something bad happens that wont be able to be reveresed, maybe then he will finally stop being so childish and battle obsessed to point of complaining that 17 attacked, before enemy finish their move,
We already had a scene that was supposed make him realize he is taking his love for battle way too far and that was during the Cell Saga with Gohan. It was never brought up again, nor is it ever implied he learned anything from it.

I don't what to say about his portrayal. They seem to be trying to live up to Toriyama's original view of Goku, in that he is not the righteous person the anime sometimes made him out to be. The problem is that I think they are overdoing it a little? There was a better balance between his selfishness and more attentive side or at least it was better hidden in the original story. While I think some people might exaggerate just how battle crazy he is, there something aggravating about that carelessness. Childish naiveté isn't always endearing.

Well, if there is one thing that seems to have changed for the better is his view on letting kids fight. Didn't he tell Trunks and Goten during the ROF arc that the battle ground was no place for children? Don't think DBZ era Goku would've ever said something like that.

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Re: People are getting tired of Goku and here is why

Post by HeroR » Wed Aug 23, 2017 7:44 am

Michsi wrote:
coola wrote:In my opinion, Goku is one of very few anime characters, that got worse as story progress, and i admit i also got tired of him, and i hope something bad happens that wont be able to be reveresed, maybe then he will finally stop being so childish and battle obsessed to point of complaining that 17 attacked, before enemy finish their move,
We already had a scene that was supposed make him realize he is taking his love for battle way too far and that was during the Cell Saga with Gohan. It was never brought up again, nor is it ever implied he learned anything from it.

I don't what to say about his portrayal. They seem to be trying to live up to Toriyama's original view of Goku, in that he is not the righteous person the anime sometimes made him out to be. The problem is that I think they are overdoing it a little? There was a better balance between his selfishness and more attentive side or at least it was better hidden in the original story. While I think some people might exaggerate just how battle crazy he is, there something aggravating about that carelessness. Childish naiveté isn't always endearing.

Well, if there is one thing that seems to have changed for the better is his view on letting kids fight. Didn't he tell Trunks and Goten during the ROF arc that the battle ground was no place for children? Don't think DBZ era Goku would've ever said something like that.
Actually, that was more realizing that Gohan wasn't him and he didn't like to fight. Not so much about him being battle craze since it was the exact opposite. He stepped down and tried to let someone else saved the world.

Also, "childish naiveté isn't always endearing". Goku isn't meant to be endearing in this arc. His carelessness and love for fighting have been called out several times this arc and in Battle of Gods, both the saga and movie. Goku simply doesn't care and takes a 'this is who I am stance'. He's an unapologetic blood knight, which is why he's pure according to Toriyama. You know exactly where he's coming from, take it or leave it.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: People are getting tired of Goku and here is why

Post by Michsi » Wed Aug 23, 2017 8:31 am

HeroR wrote:
Actually, that was more realizing that Gohan wasn't him and he didn't like to fight. Not so much about him being battle craze since it was the exact opposite. He stepped down and tried to let someone else saved the world.

Also, "childish naiveté isn't always endearing". Goku isn't meant to be endearing in this arc. His carelessness and love for fighting have been called out several times this arc and in Battle of Gods, both the saga and movie. Goku simply doesn't care and takes a 'this is who I am stance'. He's an unapologetic blood knight, which is why he's pure according to Toriyama. You know exactly where he's coming from, take it or leave it.

Yeah, that part I don't buy. While he might have been aware of what was at stake, it was made pretty clear that saving the world wasn't the first thing on his mind when he battled Cell or when he sent Gohan out to fight. I was just rounding up what that whole moment represented, him being blinded by his love for battle.

I said it before, it was probably a strange, Goku-specific gesture of father love by giving Gohan the opportunity to fight a strong opponent. He saw himself in Gohan more than he should have, but in his mind, he was doing something nice for Gohan.

Also, a character being flawed is one thing, but they should at least be likeable. I mean, you're here for entertainment, not to glower at your screen. Now there are characters whose purpose in the story is to be unlikeable, those that are deliberately infuriating, the type that you love to hate, but that's okay, because those character usually also get their comeuppance. That most likely will not be the case with Goku.

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Re: People are getting tired of Goku and here is why

Post by Yedis » Wed Aug 23, 2017 9:17 am

TBMx wrote: And Goku making it all about other character's relationship with him instead of with each other is a big sign of Mary Sueism....... Every recruitment episode was about each character in question relates to Goku while other characters just waited and did nothing
This is how DB is written. It revolves around Goku's relationship with other characters.

Take away Goku what type of connection does Gohan have with Vegeta, Tien, Roshi, 18, Frieza, or 17 Very little to none

Take away Goku what type of connection does Vegeta have with Gohan, Piccolo, Krillin, etc Very little to none.

The only connection a lot of the main cast has with each other is Goku.
Last edited by Yedis on Wed Aug 23, 2017 9:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: People are getting tired of Goku and here is why

Post by HeroR » Wed Aug 23, 2017 9:19 am

Michsi wrote:

Yeah, that part I don't buy. While he might have been aware of what was at stake, it was made pretty clear that saving the world wasn't the first thing on his mind when he battled Cell or when he sent Gohan out to fight. I was just rounding up what that whole moment represented, him being blinded by his love for battle.

I said it before, it was probably a strange, Goku-specific gesture of father love by giving Gohan the opportunity to fight a strong opponent. He saw himself in Gohan more than he should have, but in his mind, he was doing something nice for Gohan.

Also, a character being flawed is one thing, but they should at least be likeable. I mean, you're here for entertainment, not to glower at your screen. Now there are characters whose purpose in the story is to be unlikeable, those that are deliberately infuriating, the type that you love to hate, but that's okay, because those character usually also get their comeuppance. That most likely will not be the case with Goku.
It was since Gohan was literally the only person who could have beaten Cell. Goku couldn't do it and he was the strongest next to Gohan. It wasn't "Goku-specific gesture of father love by giving Gohan", it was literally their only way to win.

What makes a person 'likable' is subjective. For example, Goku is still the most popular character in Dragon Ball by a large margin despite how he acts in Super, so he still remains likable to a lot of people. People like Cell Saga Vegeta, which makes him 'likable' on some level, while I couldn't stand that version of Vegeta and wanted him to die in fire.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: People are getting tired of Goku and here is why

Post by Nero<>Akira » Wed Aug 23, 2017 9:56 am

Dbzfan94 wrote:
Simere wrote:
TheGreatSaiyaman wrote:And even when there are supposed other characters as the "main focus", they only come off as 2nd best to what Goku does in the same episode...
Give two examples?
Hit and 17, most recently.
BlueBasilisk wrote:
Nero<>Akira wrote:Goku's presence in Super is nothing compared to GT. GT is terrible with Goku. Super made me like him more and made him a more interesting character even with some inconsistent hiccups lol
Holy shit, this. GT Goku was a nightmare of a character who actively stopped other characters from participating in fights so he could do things himself. The only times I can recall Super Goku doing something like that are in the RoF and Copy Vegeta arcs when he sent Goten and Trunks away. He'll team up with or fight just about anyone.

Goku's putting in face time but he hasn't eliminated anyone since he and Vegeta took out the Trio de Dangers in episode 98. We're going to get Goku either way so I'd rather have him engaged in the plot doing things than kept on the sidelines by writer fiat with viewers and characters waiting for his inevitable return.
I'll agree that Goku more or less stopped others from fighting was infruiating, in no way do I see how Goku became more interesting in Super. He's become annoying.
His character moments and this arc have done it.
Zamasu is the best DB villain besides Freeza (and this is only the case because the current Super arc elevated Freeza to be that good).

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Re: People are getting tired of Goku and here is why

Post by Michsi » Wed Aug 23, 2017 9:58 am

HeroR wrote: It was since Gohan was literally the only person who could have beaten Cell. Goku couldn't do it and he was the strongest next to Gohan. It wasn't "Goku-specific gesture of father love by giving Gohan", it was literally their only way to win.
What about giving Cell the senzu? What could make Goku's priorities (and the fact that the earth's safety was further down the list) clearer than that? Yes, Gohan was the only one that stood a real chance of winning, he was right about that. That was never the issue. What people call attention to when mentioning this scene is his careless attitude towards the whole predicament.
HeroR wrote: What makes a person 'likable' is subjective. For example, Goku is still the most popular character in Dragon Ball by a large margin despite how he acts in Super, so he still remains likable to a lot of people. People like Cell Saga Vegeta, which makes him 'likable' on some level, while I couldn't stand that version of Vegeta and wanted him to die in fire.
I'm pretty sure that nothing in Super could taint his overall likeability. Same as his popularity. I also like Goku overall, but that's mostly because of the original work. Personally, I don't mind his extended screen time, even when it's not his episode, I'm more concerned about the direction they're intending to take the character in.

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