Will Goku's new Form be a 50 times multiplier? Potential Spoilers

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Will Goku's new Form be a 50 times multiplier? Potential Spoilers

Post by Ranmaru Rei » Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:38 pm

Angrist Hand wrote:DragonBall doesnt do multipliers anymore. I hope the story starts respecting power levels again tho, I like numbers. Either way it wouldnt make sense for Goku's new form to be a match for Beerus. From what we've been shown Beerus could win this tournament of Power by himself easily, and Goku nor Jiren can do that.
I hate numbers. Screw multipliers and power levels. I want to see tactics, technics, gimmicks. Not raw power. It is boring af.
"I win because my power level is higher, than yours". If it so, that means you should measure your power level and power level of opposition, that's all. There is no competition. Just maths.

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Re: Will Goku's new Form be a 50 times multiplier? Potential Spoilers

Post by TheShadowEmperor8055 » Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:55 pm

I seriously, truly, verily doubt that any type of multiplier will be introduced in the actual show for Goku's new form. That's something the databooks or guidebooks mention.

But I'm not gonna say the numbers are completely meaningless and don't matter. They matter to some fans. Personally I don't care about trying to calculate power levels after that concept got dropped in the Freeza/Namek Saga. But I also agree with the notion that song lyrics aren't something to be taken too literally.
GodVegetto91 wrote: We are at core all mathematical beings and either consciously, or unconsciously we all crave for numbers wether we are aware of it or not. If i want to watch something for fun and for laughs, i rather watch family guy or south park, that stuff always cracks me up. Dragon ball is not the show for me to get a laugh out of (well maybe for the awesome charisma of Goku Black and Perfect Cell). But you get my point.

For people like me, Numbers are an absolute must. And our hunger must be satisfied. We can't have questions unanswered, we would be like dogs who never got their foods. It would haunt us for the rest of our lives.
Lol dude, speak for yourself. I major in mathematics and computer science in college and I don't care about numbers all that much particularly when it pertains to Dragon Ball due to the fact that they haven't proven to be reliable all of the time. Again, while I don't care about power levels as much as you supposedly claim we all do, I admit that sure, multipliers and all are interesting to me, but as already mentioned in the thread, there was that whole "SSG Goku is a 6, Beerus a 10 and Whis is 15" thing Toriyama said which doesn't make sense from what Super has shown us, then there was that thing Toriyama also said when he said the SS transformation is 10 times stronger than the normal state. But that seems to contradict KKx20 being x20 stronger. Some have tried to rectify that by saying Goku as a SS was 10x stronger than him in his normal state using KKx20. But that doesn't make a lot of sense either.

To further elucidate with the Kaioken, it's stated to double the speed, strength and power of the user. But KKx3 triples the user's strength. So what exactly does KKx2 do? The same as KK? Quadruples the user's power? But that contradicts KKx3 tripling the user's power. Numbers haven't necessarily proven themselves to be totally reliable in Dragon Ball. They've been approximations of power (however off those approximations have been) if anything.

And it's quite clear Super itself doesn't care too much about numbers either in the grand scheme of things. But anything can happen. I just doubt that this multiplier thing would actually be mentioned in the show personally.

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Re: Will Goku's new Form be a 50 times multiplier? Potential Spoilers

Post by Arugela » Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:26 pm

It's possible with the statements about getting away from transformation and whatnot he's using his ability to heal from ssg and ssb to train to increase his long term use of Kaioken. Maybe its' the ability to use Kaiokenx100 and not be hurt afterwords. All of this god form could be a build up to him getting higher values of kaioken normally. Or he takes the power of ssb or ssg into himself as base form again and gaining healing powers to use kaioken to greater affect normally at his normal base form. It would not surprise me if the are trying to take the series back to older school goku. could be a wind down from dbz and super Saiyan stuff to where GT fits in or something where he doesn't need super Saiyan forms anymore but uses his base form more.

If the number is accurate it would make sense as we could easily get the number when he does kaioken and states the multiplier.

https://youtu.be/XSlzVJbVO24?t=74

In this clip his kaioken gives him eyes like in ape form. He's partially going into oozaru if going by the animation. Maybe this is all a ramp up for kaioken to be a later basis for GT and the return of oozaru form by mastering kaioken and returning back to his physical max later on.

And to the statement about zeno. They could have the powerup be so strong it makes a gush of wind and blows zeno away to jokingly go with the concept of blowing him away figuratively. It is not beyond the level of jokes in this show. I could see him holding onto his chairs for dear life as he's being "blown away!" Even with a look of awe on his face as he watches.
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Re: Will Goku's new Form be a 50 times multiplier? Potential Spoilers

Post by Angrist Hand » Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:54 pm

Ranmaru Rei wrote: I hate numbers. Screw multipliers and power levels. I want to see tactics, technics, gimmicks. Not raw power. It is boring af.
"I win because my power level is higher, than yours". If it so, that means you should measure your power level and power level of opposition, that's all. There is no competition. Just maths.
Re-introducing numbers to DragonBall Super would make the show far better and open up more discussion. Multipliers and power levels could be used in addition to tactics, techniques, and gimmicks to determine a winner. The People love quantifiable data, thats why horsepower ratings and the NFL combine are so popular. Eliminating power ratings was a mistake.

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Re: Will Goku's new Form be a 50 times multiplier? Potential Spoilers

Post by avasatu » Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:55 pm

I've more or less given up on power levels, and am much more interested in versus battles. However, if we want to go that route, I guess effort-exerting-but-still-suppressed Jiren is at least 50 times SSB Goku if he is able to tank KK20 Goku effortlessly. I bet the new form is 100 times or more beyond SSB (whatever that means in Super), and I also bet 100% Jiren will be able to contend with the Limit Breaker.

That said, if LB Goku is indeed his True SSG form, and if this arc is indeed about breaking limits to the degree it has been pushing the concept, I suspect the form will continuously grow in strength and adapt to opponents, along with healing its user, much like an improved SSG. It may also, in fact, be taxing on Goku, and it has already been heavily implied that his psyche will change, likely for worse.

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Re: Will Goku's new Form be a 50 times multiplier? Potential Spoilers

Post by GodVegetto91 » Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:30 pm

TheShadowEmperor8055 wrote:I seriously, truly, verily doubt that any type of multiplier will be introduced in the actual show for Goku's new form. That's something the databooks or guidebooks mention.

But I'm not gonna say the numbers are completely meaningless and don't matter. They matter to some fans. Personally I don't care about trying to calculate power levels after that concept got dropped in the Freeza/Namek Saga. But I also agree with the notion that song lyrics aren't something to be taken too literally.
GodVegetto91 wrote: We are at core all mathematical beings and either consciously, or unconsciously we all crave for numbers wether we are aware of it or not. If i want to watch something for fun and for laughs, i rather watch family guy or south park, that stuff always cracks me up. Dragon ball is not the show for me to get a laugh out of (well maybe for the awesome charisma of Goku Black and Perfect Cell). But you get my point.

For people like me, Numbers are an absolute must. And our hunger must be satisfied. We can't have questions unanswered, we would be like dogs who never got their foods. It would haunt us for the rest of our lives.
Lol dude, speak for yourself. I major in mathematics and computer science in college and I don't care about numbers all that much particularly when it pertains to Dragon Ball due to the fact that they haven't proven to be reliable all of the time. Again, while I don't care about power levels as much as you supposedly claim we all do, I admit that sure, multipliers and all are interesting to me, but as already mentioned in the thread, there was that whole "SSG Goku is a 6, Beerus a 10 and Whis is 15" thing Toriyama said which doesn't make sense from what Super has shown us, then there was that thing Toriyama also said when he said the SS transformation is 10 times stronger than the normal state. But that seems to contradict KKx20 being x20 stronger. Some have tried to rectify that by saying Goku as a SS was 10x stronger than him in his normal state using KKx20. But that doesn't make a lot of sense either.

To further elucidate with the Kaioken, it's stated to double the speed, strength and power of the user. But KKx3 triples the user's strength. So what exactly does KKx2 do? The same as KK? Quadruples the user's power? But that contradicts KKx3 tripling the user's power. Numbers haven't necessarily proven themselves to be totally reliable in Dragon Ball. They've been approximations of power (however off those approximations have been) if anything.

And it's quite clear Super itself doesn't care too much about numbers either in the grand scheme of things. But anything can happen. I just doubt that this multiplier thing would actually be mentioned in the show personally.
Kaioken, kaioken x1, and kaioken x2 are all the exact same thing. Just different ways to name them, that's all. All 3 are just different names for the same concept. Kaioken x1 is ofcourse Kaioken, but since Kaioken literally doubles your power you could call it Kaioken times 2 aswell.

Only Kaioken x3 is different and the next step above regular kaioken ofcourse.

And to anyone saying there will be no multipliers involved, well, that's wrong. Because there will always be a certain multiplier involved in a transformation unless said transformation is ofcourse less than a 2 times boost. From what we know now, we can at least safely assume that whatever Goku's new Form is, it's AT LEAST above 20 times SSJ Blue. That's a fact. But ofcourse it's not that there aren't in reality multipliers involved, but rather, there are no confirmed multipliers STATED by the writers. That is true.

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Re: Will Goku's new Form be a 50 times multiplier? Potential Spoilers

Post by VegettoEX » Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:57 pm

GodVegetto91 wrote:That's a fact.
No it's not.

"Goku was a child with a tail" is a fact. "The upcoming power-up is _______ of a multiplier" is something fans are extrapolating all on their own, hasn't been defined, likely never will be defined, and even if it were could be something entirely different.

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Re: Will Goku's new Form be a 50 times multiplier? Potential Spoilers

Post by Duo » Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:37 pm

GodVegetto91 wrote:(Various rants about Dragon Ball not being enjoyable without numbers)
Stories are not mathematics, and conflating the two is completely absurd. Your dogmatism is inappropriate and devalues Dragon Ball.

When I was much younger, I tried to live or die by power levels (my sincerest apologies to all). They were barely relevant for two story arcs, and were frequently highlighted for being nonsensical. You have to ignore a significant theme of the story in order to try to reduce character abilities to numbers. You seriously do not need a numerical measurement to understand the strength relation between characters. It's not hard to piece together unless a bunch of what-if BS is introduced like Kid Buu vs Janemba (AKA not a valuable topic of discussion if reduced to numbers).

I can agree that the DB Super anime has made power scaling pretty confusing and has somewhat diminished the drama in certain fights, but you're rocketing yourself so far into the opposite extreme that it harms any attempt at the discussion to begin with.

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Re: Will Goku's new Form be a 50 times multiplier? Potential Spoilers

Post by GodVegetto91 » Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:42 pm

VegettoEX wrote:
GodVegetto91 wrote:That's a fact.
No it's not.

"Goku was a child with a tail" is a fact. "The upcoming power-up is _______ of a multiplier" is something fans are extrapolating all on their own, hasn't been defined, likely never will be defined, and even if it were could be something entirely different.

Words have meanings, and it would be unfortunate to lose them!
Uhm we do know that Goku will use a Kaioken times 20 against Jiren, that has been confirmed by recent spoilers, and it's also heavily implied that Goku's new Form is going to trump that feat, why else would he use it and why else would they hype it up so much? This is going to be AFTER he uses the 20 times Kaioken, so using a little bit of reason and logic, it's pretty much a given that Goku's new Form is going to be likewise above 20 times SSJ Blue as a result, so i don't see how that's not a fact...? Unless you're refering to something else i stated to be a fact?

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Re: Will Goku's new Form be a 50 times multiplier? Potential Spoilers

Post by avasatu » Sat Sep 09, 2017 1:28 am

Just because something is heavily implied for the future doesn't make it a present fact.

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Re: Will Goku's new Form be a 50 times multiplier? Potential Spoilers

Post by Nickolaidas » Sat Sep 09, 2017 2:25 am

Ranmaru Rei wrote:I hate numbers. Screw multipliers and power levels. I want to see tactics, technics, gimmicks. Not raw power. It is boring af.
"I win because my power level is higher, than yours". If it so, that means you should measure your power level and power level of opposition, that's all. There is no competition. Just maths.
A thousand times this.

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Re: Will Goku's new Form be a 50 times multiplier? Potential Spoilers

Post by Basako » Sat Sep 09, 2017 5:00 am

I don't like numbers either, less that statick, they create problems. We should take the ones we got as aproximate references, but not to make further calculations. And who says they can't change anyway or how accurate they were when stated by characters?
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Re: Will Goku's new Form be a 50 times multiplier? Potential Spoilers

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:39 am

My 2 cents: Numbers and power levels are not bad inherently, but unless the writers of the series can keep them consistent (which, let's face it, DB has never done), they are more trouble than they're worth.
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Re: Will Goku's new Form be a 50 times multiplier? Potential Spoilers

Post by GodVegetto91 » Sat Sep 09, 2017 11:21 am

avasatu wrote:Just because something is heavily implied for the future doesn't make it a present fact.
Come on, You seriously believe Goku's new Form isn't going to fair any better against Jiren than his 20x Kaioken?? Even though all the evidence says otherwise.

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Re: Will Goku's new Form be a 50 times multiplier? Potential Spoilers

Post by LowRyder2005 » Sat Sep 09, 2017 12:42 pm

I can understand the dislike for the need to put everything in numerical terms, or even better the idea of perceived futility behind it, or even better the fact that many here needlessly grind their brain into overanalyzing stuff (starting from the lyrics of the song).

However, you folks do also realize that the only reason a thread was made is surely viewers already have the exact same numerical-related notions whenever Kaioken *10 or *20 appears -- along with how it decupled Goku's power (the first time in Super included)? What exactly makes at least the initial premise of the thread seem that off to you? Maybe it wasn't worth a thread, per se, but it can be a pretty natural question. Oh, well. :|

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Re: Will Goku's new Form be a 50 times multiplier? Potential Spoilers

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Sep 09, 2017 2:14 pm

LowRyder2005 wrote:I can understand the dislike for the need to put everything in numerical terms, or even better the idea of perceived futility behind it, or even better the fact that many here needlessly grind their brain into overanalyzing stuff (starting from the lyrics of the song).

However, you folks do also realize that the only reason a thread was made is surely viewers already have the exact same numerical-related notions whenever Kaioken *10 or *20 appears -- along with how it decupled Goku's power (the first time in Super included)? What exactly makes at least the initial premise of the thread seem that off to you? Maybe it wasn't worth a thread, per se, but it can be a pretty natural question. Oh, well. :|
Yeah, this a question of tastes I think. I can understand the passion some people have over powerlevels discussions, since I was of those passionate fans myself. The fact that I continue to comment in those sections might mean something.

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Re: Will Goku's new Form be a 50 times multiplier? Potential Spoilers

Post by GodVegetto91 » Sat Sep 09, 2017 2:39 pm

I really don't see how it's supposed to be "over-analysing" things here, and i hate it when people call it this way. I prefer to call it Speculation and that's really what it is. I don't see what's wrong with a little bit of speculation, afterall, it's what a fanbase/community tends to do, and it's something that can and should be enjoyed by all. Yes, we have a lyrics, No it doesn't have to be 100% literally true, but does that mean i'm not allowed to speculate over it? Sure, prognasticating things such as Goku is going to have a 50 times or even 100 times multiplier over SSJ Blue IS ofcourse nothing more than pure speculation at this point, i admit, but the fact that it's going to be above 20 times SSJ Blue isn't, for the reasons i've stated above. And that at least gives us something to work with as far as speculation goes ofcourse. And shouldn't we all enjoy it?

Also, like stated previously, there's nothing confusing or hard to understand about a certain multiplier, in fact, it makes things far easier! If the writers were to come out and say, hey look! Goku's transformation has now made him 50 times stronger than he was before! Than that is indeed a specific number that we all can agree on and enjoy. It gives order to the powerscaling of this show and rather than making things more complex and difficult, it makes it easier to understand! I just don't see how people could ever be opposed to such a concept. The only reason people believe numbers and powerlevels suck, is because the writers themselves made it that way! didn't pay any attention to it and left them in the dark. If they could've just maintained their numerical consistenties, there would hardly be any need for debates at all, and all the confusions, inconsistencies and powerscaling issues would have been solved a long time ago. Sadly they didn't. It's not our fault, it's the writers fault for bringing us into this mess.

Not everyone needs to have the same mentality as you guys, and it's important to stand open for other people's viewpoints and opinions, to be open minded. You do realise that this is a show that's all about powerlevels and strengh and that there's a whole wide fanbase specifically focused on that aspect of the show. It's to be expected and only logical. There are people that only care (or mainly!) care about strength, and logically these kinds of people WANT/NEED to know exactly where characters stand in relation to eachother, they want to be certain. and have a definitive answer once and for all, only that way can they go back to bed and sleep well.

And what other source than numbers can provide exactly that?!

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Re: Will Goku's new Form be a 50 times multiplier? Potential Spoilers

Post by TheShadowEmperor8055 » Sat Sep 09, 2017 3:37 pm

Duo wrote:
GodVegetto91 wrote:(Various rants about Dragon Ball not being enjoyable without numbers)
Stories are not mathematics, and conflating the two is completely absurd. Your dogmatism is inappropriate and devalues Dragon Ball.

When I was much younger, I tried to live or die by power levels (my sincerest apologies to all). They were barely relevant for two story arcs, and were frequently highlighted for being nonsensical. You have to ignore a significant theme of the story in order to try to reduce character abilities to numbers. You seriously do not need a numerical measurement to understand the strength relation between characters. It's not hard to piece together unless a bunch of what-if BS is introduced like Kid Buu vs Janemba (AKA not a valuable topic of discussion if reduced to numbers).

I can agree that the DB Super anime has made power scaling pretty confusing and has somewhat diminished the drama in certain fights, but you're rocketing yourself so far into the opposite extreme that it harms any attempt at the discussion to begin with.
This, pretty much.

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Re: Will Goku's new Form be a 50 times multiplier? Potential Spoilers

Post by Duo » Sat Sep 09, 2017 11:04 pm

TheShadowEmperor8055 wrote: This, pretty much.
That's the closest thing to being valuable I may have ever posted on Kanzenshuu in however many years, but the sad truth of the matter is that the best posts here never get sufficiently highlighted. I would pay up a few bucks just to get an upvote button up in this mother, no matter how old school I am otherwise.

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Re: Will Goku's new Form be a 50 times multiplier? Potential Spoilers

Post by avasatu » Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:41 am

GodVegetto91 wrote:
avasatu wrote:Just because something is heavily implied for the future doesn't make it a present fact.
Come on, You seriously believe Goku's new Form isn't going to fair any better against Jiren than his 20x Kaioken?? Even though all the evidence says otherwise.
As I said in another post, I think it will be stronger than a 50 times multiplier. However, I don't claim it to be a fact.

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