The future trunks would have been just as bad if Toriyama wrote the whole thing

[Totamo]

If you don't like that arc, I love it, you probably blame the execution of the plotpoints or the overall the outline. You probably blame Toei or Toyo or maybe just Tori. I blame all 3 equally.


That being said, I strongly believed it would have been the same quality if Toriyama wrote it back then because its very similar the Cell saga.


I consider the Cell saga the worst one in all of Z and the first one people go to when super does something dumb because odds are the Cell saga did first.


Time travel plotholes
Characters being dumb to move the plot along
Powerups happening like no one's buisness aka the grades of super saiyan
People learning things they shouldn't be learning- super saiyan being given to every saiyan when it was suppose to be rare and legendary
Tension is dead because of divine intervention aka king kia telling Goku where New Namek was giving them better sets of dragon balls and a get out of jail freecard if cell wins
Villain is not suppose to be evil but is different in motivation not actions from other villains.
Inconsistent theming aka a world without Goku equals hell on eart so why did he leave?

Now you can say the Buu saga did this stuff too, but it happened here first The only difference is Goku is around more but i consider that an improvement over plot diveku and the cell saga matters more.


I could be wrong though, but I'm pretty sure this arc would have been praised more back then if it came out instead of now.

[nato25]

I'm interested to hear about the plotholes in the Cell Saga regarding time travel. I really liked the way they handled time travel there and hated the way they changed the rules for Super with the timeline split (I think that's how it works) and two Zamasu being from the same timeline as if they somehow doubled.

[Basako]

I'm interested to hear about the plotholes in the Cell Saga regarding time travel. I really liked the way they handled time travel there and hated the way they changed the rules for Super with the timeline split (I think that's how it works) and two Zamasu being from the same timeline as if they somehow doubled.

There is one plothole about Cell, he explained to Piccolo the robot that was collecting DNA didn't take Trunks' to create him. That can't be, the timeline where he came from, where he killed Trunks, Trunks never appeared to kill mecha Freeza and give medicine to Goku, that's why Goku died and the cyborgs won. The rest would be mostly fine, but the time splits were happening, one for sure, probably three.

There is also a mistake in Trunks: the story manga. Trunks says he will travel 17 years to the past, but his first time travel was 20 years. It was 17 the second time, when he returned to fight.

Rules didn't change in the new arc, but things were a bit messy too. The Zamasus weren't from the same timeline, there were three, one was Black, the other was killed by Beerus and the last was fom Trunks' timeline. A timeline in fact doubled when the split happened, that's how it works. In the end, Trunks' timeline was recreated by another split.

Note: I'm talking about the manga, because the anime has its own plothole about the origin of Black, he basically caused his own creation.

[GodKaio-Ken]

I'm interested to hear about the plotholes in the Cell Saga regarding time travel. I really liked the way they handled time travel there and hated the way they changed the rules for Super with the timeline split (I think that's how it works) and two Zamasu being from the same timeline as if they somehow doubled.

Note: I'm talking about the manga, because the anime has its own plothole about the origin of Black, he basically caused his own creation.

That isn't a plothole, its just an unanswered paradox they did their own take on.

[TheMikado]

If you don't like that arc, I love it, you probably blame the execution of the plotpoints or the overall the outline. You probably blame Toei or Toyo or maybe just Tori. I blame all 3 equally.


That being said, I strongly believed it would have been the same quality if Toriyama wrote it back then because its very similar the Cell saga.


I consider the Cell saga the worst one in all of Z and the first one people go to when super does something dumb because odds are the Cell saga did first.


Time travel plotholes
Characters being dumb to move the plot along
Powerups happening like no one's buisness aka the grades of super saiyan
People learning things they shouldn't be learning- super saiyan being given to every saiyan when it was suppose to be rare and legendary
Tension is dead because of divine intervention aka king kia telling Goku where New Namek was giving them better sets of dragon balls and a get out of jail freecard if cell wins
Villain is not suppose to be evil but is different in motivation not actions from other villains.
Inconsistent theming aka a world without Goku equals hell on eart so why did he leave?

Now you can say the Buu saga did this stuff too, but it happened here first The only difference is Goku is around more but i consider that an improvement over plot diveku and the cell saga matters more.


I could be wrong though, but I'm pretty sure this arc would have been praised more back then if it came out instead of now.

I don't really understand this thread but Ill just go point by point since you listed them and want opinions.

Time travel plotholes

This was the introduction to time travel in DB. This was setting the rules. If Toriyama wanted to talk about splitting and erasing timelines he could have done it there. The way the timelines worked was well planned and thought out. It wasn't always perfect but there were no immediate and obvious holes that made you scratch your head. The anime has Black/Zamasu creating himself and causes a paradox. The manga completely avoid that issue and it isn't a problem.
That's why people are mad, because there is an obvious solution to avoiding things. You have different take on the story around the same time that avoided the most obvious plothole. Sure we can tolerate little things but big gaping holes which weren't thought out are the obvious issue. It only furthers the issue because its as if Toriyama could be bothered to care enough to write a consistent origin story... and we will never know if he did or didn't which makes that even worse!!! So NO its not on the same level because we at least know he went through the trouble of thinking out and planning the mechanics of what his wrote and now we don't know if he even cared at all about how it works!

Characters being dumb to move the plot along

I think you are equating poor decision making to being dumb which isn't the case.
Notarious examples:
Goku & the gang wanting to fight the android. - In universe context Bulma completely calls them out on being selfish battle hogs. They weren't dumb, just arrogant.
Vegeta letting Cell absorb 17/18 - in universe context, Vegeta, now Super Vegeta is an arrogant @$$hole and everyone tried to stop him and he paid dearly for that
Goku sending Gohan to fight Cell and giving Cell a senzu bean - in universe context, Goku had Gohan fight because he tested Cell and trained Gohan and determined Gohan the only one capable to win.
This resulted to everyone getting beat to hell because Gohan wasn't able to power up immediately. Ultimately he won, but is was a cocky arrogant attitude at play, not stupidity.

I'll even take it to Buu saga:
Goku fighting Vegeta and threatening Kaioshin: Goku initially did not want to fight. Period, but Vegeta forced his hand. Whether Goku did the right thing by not immediately killing Vegeta and attempting to get him to work with him is debatable. At some point I believe Goku even says he doesn't think Buu will be a big deal and at present Vegeta is the primary threat. Again not dumb, just over confident, cocky, arrogant.
Goku sending Goten/Trunks to fight Buu: Goku gives his reasons for the next generation to fight, again not stupid/dumb, but a bad decision and arrogance.

Super: Mafuba talisman: the end result being that it fails, they fuse, still fail, and the end of the universe and timeline happens. This one really sucks it doesn't even seem to be because of poor judgement. Goku just forgot something and the end result is the multiverse/timeline is destroyed and everyone is dead...

The scale is completely different. The "dumb" thing that happens in Super results in something 1 billion times worse.. There's no pay-off, no reward for enduring it, there was no lesson to learn from the experience other than "check your pockets twice before leaving the house." its a lesson aimed at 5 year olds.

Powerups happening like no one's buisness aka the grades of super saiyan

We've watched them struggle with obtaining those grades. Even then that doesn't mean they choose the correct path of training. Vegeta and Trunks both went down the wrong training path, and Trunks further made another error with USSJ.
Gohan struggled to get SSJ. SSG was literally handed to Goku. No one complains about the work they put in to get SSB because they worked to get it for an extended period of time. They complain because Vegeta getting God ki was never explained. In the manga they at least say he had to get SSG first so we at least have that. No one can bother to explain how or why Vegeta got God ki in the first place other than Whis training. Which also implies simply levels of training are needed to surpass SSG levels.

The reason there is so much issue in Super is that no one bats an eye at them. I always say the presentation is the important part of a concept. In the Buu arc the kids get SSJ and everyone goes apesh*t over it with literal eyes bugging out and jaws dropping. Goku whips out SSBXKK and SSBxKKx10 and the only one having a fit is Beerus. When did Goku find time to gain this technique? While Vegeta was sleeping in the RoSaT??? Previously we were given plausible, extended time periods for characters to develop strength and techniques, literal years, plus time in the RoSaT. This has now devolved to characters finding out about SSJ and a few minutes later mastering it through back tingles where they can go toe-to-toe with Goku and everyone in universe is cool with that. Its absurd even in universe and does not make a believable living breathing world. This doesn't even address the BS workout routines of 17, Frieza, Krillin, Roshi.

People learning things they shouldn't be learning- super saiyan being given to every saiyan when it was suppose to be rare and legendary

Already covered it. Like I said the reaction was always outrageous in-universe. Now its not even played as such. The presentation is that this is perfectly normal when both the characters in universe and the audience know this crap is anything but normal. Or at least it should be.

Tension is dead because of divine intervention aka king kia telling Goku where New Namek was giving them better sets of dragon balls and a get out of jail freecard if cell wins

No the problem is the number get out of free cards have increased with literally zero effort.
We have multiple sets of dragonballs, PLUS the Super Dragonballs, which can apparently be used to make even more dragonballs.
We have Beerus who is stronger than anything we've seen and still is.
Except for Whis who is stronger still AND has the ability to rewind time whenever he wants without creating another timeline....
Who isn't even the stronger angel
With 12 angels and 12 GoDs overseen by a Grand Priest Angel
Who along with that reports to God of Everything and his two body guards
Which Goku just happens to be buddies with and has him on speed dial on a moments notice...
He has a button that literally brings the God of Everything to him instantaneously, even if he was taking a sh*t on the pot...

By contrast Who in the Cell saga was going to save them when Cell won? Not King Kai.
Who was going to stop Buu???? The Supreme kai came to them for HELP. They were already at the highest levels at the time, up sh*t creek and no one left to save them. It was literally all on them or nothing at all.
That's tension, when the God's were completely powerless to stop a threat you knew you were in deep.
Now Zeno can stop any threat he wants where ever he wants, AND THERE ARE TWO OF THEM!

Villain is not suppose to be evil but is different in motivation not actions from other villains.

I don't even understand this one. The androids, Cell, even buu weren't particularly evil. We had Piccolo and Vegeta "turn good" and then even have Vegeta "turn evil" again.
We have the king of Demons trying to kill Buu??? I don't know a lot of people that have that kind of problem with Zamasu, its the packaging of his origins and plus his crap personality that likely rubs people the wrong way. He is fine in general as a villain, but we've certainly had been side villians. Two of the main characters are married to previous villians! With a third acting as a surrogate father. Nothing about Zamasu is impressive when compared to characters like that.

Inconsistent theming aka a world without Goku equals hell on eart so why did he leave?

I don't understand this either... Goku consistently recognizes him being around causes trouble. He realized this in Cell arc. In the Buu arc he came back to life to save everyone so its not like he wished himself back for his own sake, he just hasn't died again. This is what is so baffling about him constantly looking for a fight now though. He realized he's causes problems to the point where he shouldn't be alive. Gets to come back and be alive and chooses to use his time stirring up crap again!!! At least with EoZ he took bunch of years off and it was just kinda recreational. EoZ is what we would expect. Goku has given up fight unless he has to since the Cell saga and purely for recreation but not at the risk of others. That's why him not listening to King Kai about fighting Beerus or Beerus about talking to Zeno is SOOOO irritating. Goku should be past this point in his life based on his realizations in the Cell arc and chilling out like in EoZ because that just makes sense for him to do at this point. He matured as a character beyond that.

Now you can say the Buu saga did this stuff too, but it happened here first The only difference is Goku is around more but i consider that an improvement over plot diveku and the cell saga matters more.

I've included both examples so you can debate them.

[Basako]

That isn't a plothole, its just an unanswered paradox they did their own take on.

There's nothing to answer there, what would be the question? Black wouldn't exist if he didn't make Goku search for Zamasu and him want his body so if he didn't exist, he couldn't do that in the first place. In the manga nothing Black did affected Zamasu wanting Goku's body in the first place. Call it paradox if you want, but it's not less a plothole.

[GodKaio-Ken]

That isn't a plothole, its just an unanswered paradox they did their own take on.

There's nothing to answer there, what would be the question? Black wouldn't exist if he didn't make Goku search for Zamasu and him want his body so if he didn't exist, he couldn't do that in the first place. In the manga nothing Black did affected Zamasu wanting Goku's body in the first place. Call it paradox if you want, but it's not less a plothole.

What would happen if someone went back in time and killed their own parents? They couldn't exist without them but their parents could never die if they weren't born.

Its not the exact same scenario but same premise. Until we actually time travel and know what would actually happen its just a paradox we can't answer.

To phrase it in the shows terms though:

If he doesnt become Black, present Zamasu is never killed. If he is never killed he becomes Black.

Hope that makes sense; even if you disagree.

[ekrolo2]

The only way this arc had a snowballs chance in hell of being good is if someone else plotted it out and then you got Toriyama to spice it up as was the case with BoG.

[TheMikado]

That isn't a plothole, its just an unanswered paradox they did their own take on.

There's nothing to answer there, what would be the question? Black wouldn't exist if he didn't make Goku search for Zamasu and him want his body so if he didn't exist, he couldn't do that in the first place. In the manga nothing Black did affected Zamasu wanting Goku's body in the first place. Call it paradox if you want, but it's not less a plothole.

What would happen if someone went back in time and killed their own parents? They couldn't exist without them but their parents could never die if they weren't born.

Its not the exact same scenario but same premise. Until we actually time travel and know what would actually happen its just a paradox we can't answer.

To phrase it in the shows terms though:

If he doesnt become Black, present Zamasu is never killed. If he is never killed he becomes Black.

Hope that makes sense; even if you disagree.

The problem is Toriyama set the rules from the Android saga for his vision of time travel. The changes Trunks makes cannot alter his own timeline. It will only affect a seperate timeline. In your above scenario, according to Toriyama, if Trunk did that he would still exist because the original timeline is seperate and not looped. That's how Toriyama himself wrote the rules of time travel in his universe. That's why the scenario where Zamasu triggers his own origin is impossible in Toriyamas vision of time travel and it's why people are pissed off about it because the origin didn't seem to come from Toriyama and someone made something up without researching the source material first.

[GodKaio-Ken]

There's nothing to answer there, what would be the question? Black wouldn't exist if he didn't make Goku search for Zamasu and him want his body so if he didn't exist, he couldn't do that in the first place. In the manga nothing Black did affected Zamasu wanting Goku's body in the first place. Call it paradox if you want, but it's not less a plothole.

What would happen if someone went back in time and killed their own parents? They couldn't exist without them but their parents could never die if they weren't born.

Its not the exact same scenario but same premise. Until we actually time travel and know what would actually happen its just a paradox we can't answer.

To phrase it in the shows terms though:

If he doesnt become Black, present Zamasu is never killed. If he is never killed he becomes Black.

Hope that makes sense; even if you disagree.

The problem is Toriyama set the rules from the Android saga for his vision of time travel. The changes Trunks makes cannot alter his own timeline. It will only affect a seperate timeline. In your above scenario, according to Toriyama, if Trunk did that he would still exist because the original timeline is seperate and not looped. That's how Toriyama himself wrote the rules of time travel in his universe. That's why the scenario where Zamasu triggers his own origin is impossible in Toriyamas vision of time travel and it's why people are pissed off about it because the origin didn't seem to come from Toriyama and someone made something up without researching the source material first.

The rules of the time ring were said to be different than the time machine though.

[TheMikado]

What would happen if someone went back in time and killed their own parents? They couldn't exist without them but their parents could never die if they weren't born.

Its not the exact same scenario but same premise. Until we actually time travel and know what would actually happen its just a paradox we can't answer.

To phrase it in the shows terms though:

If he doesnt become Black, present Zamasu is never killed. If he is never killed he becomes Black.

Hope that makes sense; even if you disagree.

The problem is Toriyama set the rules from the Android saga for his vision of time travel. The changes Trunks makes cannot alter his own timeline. It will only affect a seperate timeline. In your above scenario, according to Toriyama, if Trunk did that he would still exist because the original timeline is seperate and not looped. That's how Toriyama himself wrote the rules of time travel in his universe. That's why the scenario where Zamasu triggers his own origin is impossible in Toriyamas vision of time travel and it's why people are pissed off about it because the origin didn't seem to come from Toriyama and someone made something up without researching the source material first.

The rules of the time ring were said to be different than the time machine though.

No they weren't, who said that???

[GodKaio-Ken]

The problem is Toriyama set the rules from the Android saga for his vision of time travel. The changes Trunks makes cannot alter his own timeline. It will only affect a seperate timeline. In your above scenario, according to Toriyama, if Trunk did that he would still exist because the original timeline is seperate and not looped. That's how Toriyama himself wrote the rules of time travel in his universe. That's why the scenario where Zamasu triggers his own origin is impossible in Toriyamas vision of time travel and it's why people are pissed off about it because the origin didn't seem to come from Toriyama and someone made something up without researching the source material first.

The rules of the time ring were said to be different than the time machine though.

No they weren't, who said that???

When its explained using the time ring didn't create a new timeline. That's already a different set of rules.

[TheMikado]

The rules of the time ring were said to be different than the time machine though.

No they weren't, who said that???

When its explained using the time ring didn't create a new timeline. That's already a different set of rules.

They don't create new timelines because they can't actually go into the past to begin with. The can only start in the present and move between the future and present. There's no past timelines for them to be to change in the first place.

As the name implies, they're rings that allow you to move freely through time...But only to the future. We can only go to the future, and then back to the timeline from which we came.
Gowasu explaining how the Time Rings work.

[Zephyr]

There's more to Dragon Ball than a vague outline of story beats, believe it or not. And that's important not just for how they would be executed, but how they would have even come about in the first place.

One of the biggest differences between the original run and Super is the amount of planning that goes into an arc. In the original run, Toriyama didn't plot a road map of story beats outlined (or if he did, he's done nothing to indicate such, and has only said things that imply the contrary). He wrote things as the story went along, developing the narrative organically. So, had Toriyama been drawing Super, and writing it the same way he wrote the original run, we likely wouldn't even be seeing the same family of plot points to moan about.

Another important thing about Toriyama, is that his writing goes hand in hand with his drawing. Even if both the original run and Super came from his mind, only one came from his hand. Toriyama's distinct sense of artistry, whimsy, and irreverence is something that could never be fully captured, no matter how competently emulated. While I doubt he would be making a flawless work, the execution of this arc by his actual hand would be of a higher grade, and more authentically Dragon Ball, no matter what plot points and story beats could be nitpicked.

If Toriyama actually drew this arc, it would be so fundamentally different that we likely wouldn't even have the same complaints. And Toriyama is a much better storyteller than either Toei's team or Toyotaro, that no matter how bad his full take on it would be, it would still more than likely be a better crafted story.

[TheMikado]

There's more to Dragon Ball than a vague outline of story beats, believe it or not. And that's important not just for how they would be executed, but how they would have even come about in the first place.

One of the biggest differences between the original run and Super is the amount of planning that goes into an arc. In the original run, Toriyama didn't plot a road map of story beats outlined (or if he did, he's done nothing to indicate such, and has only said things that imply the contrary). He wrote things as the story went along, developing the narrative organically. So, had Toriyama been drawing Super, and writing it the same way he wrote the original run, we likely wouldn't even be seeing the same family of plot points to moan about.

Another important thing about Toriyama, is that his writing goes hand in hand with his drawing. Even if both the original run and Super came from his mind, only one came from his hand. Toriyama's distinct sense of artistry, whimsy, and irreverence is something that could never be fully captured, no matter how competently emulated. While I doubt he would be making a flawless work, the execution of this arc by his actual hand would be of a higher grade, and more authentically Dragon Ball, no matter what plot points and story beats could be nitpicked.

If Toriyama actually drew this arc, it would be so fundamentally different that we likely wouldn't even have the same complaints. And Toriyama is a much better storyteller than either Toei's team or Toyotaro, that no matter how bad his full take on it would be, it would still more than likely be a better crafted story.

While I agree this would be completely different if Toriyama was writing it, let's dispel the myth that Toriyama doesn't plan. It's been shown that he has concepts and directions he wants to hit. I'm sure he takes a meandering approach to it in his manga and writing which probably what he means, not that he didn't plan to make Goku a SSJ until the day he actually drew him fighting Frieza. That myth is grossly exaggerated along with Toriyama forgot who probably has actually forgotten more DB trivial than most fans even know. The point is he had clear foreshadowing and built in concepts he already created. The most clear one being the slow build and foreshadow of Gohan achieving SSJ2. It doesn't feel like an @$$pull because a Toriyama literally spent 6 years in universe and a few years out of universe teasing Gohan potential. Even ultimate doesn't feel out of place because that's how Gohans been teased from the very beginning. I doubt he planned it all the way through but he naturally and organically created scenarios to build to further so that when the payoff finally hit it felt satisfying as if we had been on the long journey with these characters because we had. We were invested in their power and strength gains through the story.

[ABED]

The most clear one being the slow build and foreshadow of Gohan achieving SSJ2.

That's not foreshadowing. Gohan's hidden power was constantly released and somehow had more despite it being said that his power had been released. It's not clever, or planned, it was lazy. Goku going Super Saiyan was the example of foreshadowing. That and Piccolo being an alien.

Even ultimate doesn't feel out of place because that's how Gohans been teased from the very beginning.

It felt very lazy. Gohan had his hidden power released several times already, now he still has more?

[Zephyr]

I wasn't suggesting that he literally never plans a thing, but he also never planned an entire story arc out, front to back, before drawing and publishing the first chapter. He wasn't constrained and railroaded along some set path.

Now, if he were adapting a series of bullet points that outline the way the arc will go (the way Toyotaro and Toei are), he wouldn't be allowed to write himself into corners and then be forced to think of creative ways out. He's instead now able to hash out the details and revise bits and pieces before sending the full thing in to be drawn.

[SaiyanGod117]

That's not foreshadowing. Gohan's hidden power was constantly released and somehow had more despite it being said that his power had been released.

He only got his potential released twice and one of those times was at the mere age of 5, mind you for a regular human strength peaks are at around age 30. Gohan is a crossbeed between Saiyans and humans, so his peak would be way higher, so when you look at the circumstances it's perfectly fine for Gohan to have manifested more latent potential as he got older.

It felt very lazy. Gohan had his hidden power released several times already, now he still has more?

Though I will admit the Ultimate does feel lazy, however it's better written than any transformation from DBS.

[ABED]

TWICE! He got it released TWICE! He shouldn't have latent potential after the Eldest Namek released it. That was the point.

mind you for a regular human strength peaks are at around age 30.

That's not how it works in DB.

[SaiyanGod117]

TWICE! He got it released TWICE! He shouldn't have latent potential after the Eldest Namek released it. That was the point.

Yes, but at the tinder age of 5, Elder Namek released all the potential that Gohan was capable of at that time. His body and mind was still developing.

mind you for a regular human strength peaks are at around age 30.

That's not how it works in DB.

You're right the celling is much higher for humans in DB, which helps my point even more in my opinion. I'm not really noticing the problem here, of anything this seems like a minor nitpick.