What are Super's major Plotholes and Retcons so far?

[Master Xar]

We all know that Dragonball Super has very rough patches in it's writing outside of it's entertainment factor, what are some of the bigger errors in their writing so far? Just curious.

[JazzMazz]

Off the top of my head here are a couple(this is just for the anime though).

- Vegeta needing 10% of Beerus' power to be put down, but Goku still being weaker after increasing his power ten-fold as an SSB. In fact, how powerful the characters are in Super is widely inconsistent, I could probably list a dozen examples of stupid power-scaling that makes no sense in context, and no, these aren't minor gripes like with Roshi being able to slightly push back Frost, these are glaring inconsistencies between arcs.

-The potara fusion time being changed from unlimited, to an hour, to as long as the plot demands.

-How Goku is countering Hit's time-skip in the anime with Kaio-Ken times 10(How Hit isn't invincible is beyond me).

-The #%@!ing spirit sword!

-Goku Blacks time-travel shenanigans making no sense in story.

[Lord Beerus]

Beerus ordering Freeza to destroy Planet Vegeta (The absolute worst retcon Super has introduced)

[JazzMazz]

Beerus ordering Freeza to destroy Planet Vegeta (The absolute worst retcon Super has introduced)

Yeah, thats a particularly egregious one.

The worst retcons in Super tend to be those that undermine previous story-arcs instead of adding to them.

[Grimlock]

The worst retcon would be Universes having just one Kaioshin, whereas Universe 7 had five.

And the major plotholes? Hum... I can't remember a major one from the anime portion (certainly there is, mainly in the power level subject, but since I don't give a damn about it anymore, can't really tell what's wrong). However, from the manga portion, there is Bulma's line saying: "if one day passes here in the present, one day passes in the future as well". That contradicts the whole timeline in the future since Cell saga.

[MajinMan]

There's always that stupid Pilaf Gang plothole that has never been explained or will ever be explained (at least in Super). We KNOW the answer to it thanks to the BoG movie, but the show itself has never explained it. So I guess it's a plothole.

The worst plothole has to be the Goku Black paradox. How can Black exist if the only reason he exists is because he fought Goku? Black fought Goku, and Goku went to see Zamasu because of their fight, which in turn caused Zamasu to learn of Goku, and then steal his body after witnessing his strength first hand, then go to the future where Trunks is, then go back in time following Trunks's time stream, fight Goku, which creates himself.... pause. It doesn't make sense. And no, it isn't a loop because Trunks coming back stopped the "loop." His actions ended Zamasu's plans indefinitely. Another question is what was the starting point of all this? What caused it to start? Black only exists because of himself, so how did the very first Black come to be? Well, it's a plothole. It's a plothole hidden inside a complicated time travel theory, masquerading as a key plot point.

Other than those two plotholes, I can't really think of another one. Oh wait, there's the stupid "Beerus killed all the dinosaurs" line. That makes complete sense.

[Kinokima]

Beerus ordering Freeza to destroy Planet Vegeta (The absolute worst retcon Super has introduced)

This one annoys me a lot too. Story wise it adds absolutely nothing and takes away from Freeza as a villain (and if they try to redeem him with this I won't be happy). Funny I thought saying Beerus was the one destroyed the dinosaurs was a perfect & fun way to demonstrate his power without needing to retcon in something like this (ignoring the fact that we often see Dinosaurs in the DB world but whatever lol)

I also agree that the whole timelines in the Future Trunks story made little sense to me. How on Earth did Goku Black even end up in Future Trunks world. I don't get it. Honestly I just tried to stop understanding it and enjoyed other things the story line was offering.

Although one thing I am happy Super seems to have retconned out Vegeta having a brother. Knock on wood but that was a really stupid plot point.

[Lord Beerus]

Other than those two plotholes, I can't really think of another one. Oh wait, there's the stupid "Beerus killed all the dinosaurs" line. That makes complete sense.

I'm certain that was only in the BOG movie and not the BOG retelling in Super.

[MisteryOne]

Long list coming:

[spoiler]Toriyama himself provided a retcon in RoF, where Frieza gets revived despite being dead more than a year, and in the FT arc, by making Beerus destroying Zamasu somehow creating a new timeline. Vegeta being able to surpass Goku by getting mad was also nonsensical.

Everything surrounding the anime FT arc regarding time travel was pure bullshit and it didn't make sense at all. I don't know why the writers didn't realize they were creating such a casuality paradox, if it can even be named that. As a result, another plothole is Goku Black knowing who Vegeta was, despite having only watched a clip of Goku vs Hit in which Vegeta doesn't appear at all.

Goku gets mad at Black for killing an alternate version of his family, so, so mad, that he doesn't even try to use the Kaioken to kill Black in one shot.

Rageta is 10% of the power of Beerus, yet SSBlue Kaioken x10 is not as strong as him. Right, so Vegeta can get stronger than Blue level if someone attacks Bulma. Why on hell don't they use her s a human shield so Vegeta gets stronger than anyone?

The Gendikama sword and Merged Zamasu melting are also huge nonsenses.

Goku, Vegeta, Trunks and Bulma are able to travel to FT timeline using Cell's time machine.

Without any type of new form of power, Goku is able to surpass Merged Zamasu in a clash, despite Trunks and Vegeta, who were show to be stronger than him, failing to do so in a combined attack. Goku also says he is using his full power, despite already saying that when he attacked MZamasu along with Vegeta and both of them could not even touch him. It also makes Goku an incredible asshole for never using his ful power against Black on the multiple battles they had.

Trunks being able to get a new transformation that surpasses Super Saiyan God by screaming and getting mad.

As for the manga, the only real deal is the way Trunks' "healing powers" were handled. Kaioshin is apparently able to use a ritual similar to the one from Old Kaioshin but it instead gives healing powers? Did Present Gohan had healing powers as well? What happened to them? I liked that Trunks was apparently able to heal Mai and Gowasu without knowing it trough, but still, it comes out from nowhere.

There are also different power scaling issues, for example Base Vegetto being able to cut MZamasu's arm, or FZamasu who was said to be weaker than Trunks knocking SSG Vegeta with a kick.

For all versions excluding the BoG film, Vegeta also has huge problems as a character, having reverted to some type of awful hybrid between his Cell and Boo versions, in a way that it almost looks like if he has some type of double personality.[/spoiler]

The worst retcon would be Universes having just one Kaioshin, whereas Universe 7 had five.

And the major plotholes? Hum... I can't remember a major one from the anime portion (certainly there is, mainly in the power level subject, but since I don't give a damn about it anymore, can't really tell what's wrong). However, from the manga portion, there is Bulma's line saying: "if one day passes here in the present, one day passes in the future as well". That contradicts the whole timeline in the future since Cell saga.

No, it doesn't. It is clearly said that it only happened after Trunks returned to the past a second time, because the timelines were started to get affected. In fact, it was also said that it would not be possible to return to FT timeline again after the effect grow bigger.

It would actually be a plothole in the anime version where not such a thing is mentioned, yet Goku and Vegeta doesn't use the Time Machine to return to the exact point when they left.

[Kinokima]

Other than those two plotholes, I can't really think of another one. Oh wait, there's the stupid "Beerus killed all the dinosaurs" line. That makes complete sense.

I'm certain that was only in the BOG and not the BOG retelling in Super.

I actually skipped a bunch of the first two arcs so this is possible. Even though the Dinosaur line didn't make sense I thought it was cute as I said above (and certainly better than Beerus telling Freeza to destroy planet Vegeta)

[Zamasu55]

Long list coming:

[spoiler]Toriyama himself provided a retcon in RoF, where Frieza gets revived despite being dead more than a year, and in the FT arc, by making Beerus destroying Zamasu somehow creating a new timeline. Vegeta being able to surpass Goku by getting mad was also nonsensical.

Everything surrounding the anime FT arc regarding time travel was pure bullshit and it didn't make sense at all. I don't know why the writers didn't realize they were creating such a casuality paradox, if it can even be named that. As a result, another plothole is Goku Black knowing who Vegeta was, despite having only watched a clip of Goku vs Hit in which Vegeta doesn't appear at all.

Goku gets mad at Black for killing an alternate version of his family, so, so mad, that he doesn't even try to use the Kaioken to kill Black in one shot.

Rageta is 10% of the power of Beerus, yet SSBlue Kaioken x10 is not as strong as him. Right, so Vegeta can get stronger than Blue level if someone attacks Bulma. Why on hell don't they use her s a human shield so Vegeta gets stronger than anyone?

The Gendikama sword and Merged Zamasu melting are also huge nonsenses.

Goku, Vegeta, Trunks and Bulma are able to travel to FT timeline using Cell's time machine.

Without any type of new form of power, Goku is able to surpass Merged Zamasu in a clash, despite Trunks and Vegeta, who were show to be stronger than him, failing to do so in a combined attack. Goku also says he is using his full power, despite already saying that when he attacked MZamasu along with Vegeta and both of them could not even touch him. It also makes Goku an incredible asshole for never using his ful power against Black on the multiple battles they had.

Trunks being able to get a new transformation that surpasses Super Saiyan God by screaming and getting mad.

As for the manga, the only real deal is the way Trunks' "healing powers" were handled. Kaioshin is apparently able to use a ritual similar to the one from Old Kaioshin but it instead gives healing powers? Did Present Gohan had healing powers as well? What happened to them? I liked that Trunks was apparently able to heal Mai and Gowasu without knowing it trough, but still, it comes out from nowhere.

There are also different power scaling issues, for example Base Vegetto being able to cut MZamasu's arm, or FZamasu who was said to be weaker than Trunks knocking SSG Vegeta with a kick.

For all versions excluding the BoG film, Vegeta also has huge problems as a character, having reverted to some type of awful hybrid between his Cell and Boo versions, in a way that it almost looks like if he has some type of double personality.[/spoiler]

The worst retcon would be Universes having just one Kaioshin, whereas Universe 7 had five.

And the major plotholes? Hum... I can't remember a major one from the anime portion (certainly there is, mainly in the power level subject, but since I don't give a damn about it anymore, can't really tell what's wrong). However, from the manga portion, there is Bulma's line saying: "if one day passes here in the present, one day passes in the future as well". That contradicts the whole timeline in the future since Cell saga.

No, it doesn't. It is clearly said that it only happened after Trunks returned to the past a second time, because the timelines were started to get affected. In fact, it was also said that it would not be possible to return to FT timeline again after the effect grow bigger.

It would actually be a plothole in the anime version where not such a thing is mentioned, yet Goku and Vegeta doesn't use the Time Machine to return to the exact point when they left.

As for the manga:

1) Trunks' healing powers are an asspull, I totally agree. But so was the introduction of the zenkai power in the original manga. Or the Room of Spirit and Time. So, it can be accepted.

2) Base Vegetto caught Zamasu by surprise.

3) Same with Zamasu and SsjG Vegeta. A kick means nothing, Piccolo did the same against Final form Freeza on Namek, and the gap was much bigger.

[KayDash]

Vegeta's armor:
- U6 tournament with Budokai Tenkaichi rules... except Vegeta wearing an armor that is not allowed in the Earth tournaments, and this is why he had to remove it in the Buu Arc.
- Vegetto fusion looks the same, despite Vegeta wearing the armor.

[Lord Beerus]

Other than those two plotholes, I can't really think of another one. Oh wait, there's the stupid "Beerus killed all the dinosaurs" line. That makes complete sense.

I'm certain that was only in the BOG movie and not the BOG retelling in Super.

I actually skipped a bunch of the first two arcs so this is possible. Even though the Dinosaur line didn't make sense I thought it was cute as I said above (and certainly better than Beerus telling Freeza to destroy planet Vegeta)

The whole "Beerus killing all the dinosaurs" becuase it's so minor given dinosaurs arse basically props in Dragon Ball to emphasis it modern/futuristic/ancient hybrid aesthetic.

Long list coming:

[spoiler]Toriyama himself provided a retcon in RoF, where Frieza gets revived despite being dead more than a year, and in the FT arc, by making Beerus destroying Zamasu somehow creating a new timeline. Vegeta being able to surpass Goku by getting mad was also nonsensical.

Everything surrounding the anime FT arc regarding time travel was pure bullshit and it didn't make sense at all. I don't know why the writers didn't realize they were creating such a casuality paradox, if it can even be named that. As a result, another plothole is Goku Black knowing who Vegeta was, despite having only watched a clip of Goku vs Hit in which Vegeta doesn't appear at all.

Goku gets mad at Black for killing an alternate version of his family, so, so mad, that he doesn't even try to use the Kaioken to kill Black in one shot.

Rageta is 10% of the power of Beerus, yet SSBlue Kaioken x10 is not as strong as him. Right, so Vegeta can get stronger than Blue level if someone attacks Bulma. Why on hell don't they use her s a human shield so Vegeta gets stronger than anyone?

The Gendikama sword and Merged Zamasu melting are also huge nonsenses.

Goku, Vegeta, Trunks and Bulma are able to travel to FT timeline using Cell's time machine.

Without any type of new form of power, Goku is able to surpass Merged Zamasu in a clash, despite Trunks and Vegeta, who were show to be stronger than him, failing to do so in a combined attack. Goku also says he is using his full power, despite already saying that when he attacked MZamasu along with Vegeta and both of them could not even touch him. It also makes Goku an incredible asshole for never using his ful power against Black on the multiple battles they had.

Trunks being able to get a new transformation that surpasses Super Saiyan God by screaming and getting mad.

As for the manga, the only real deal is the way Trunks' "healing powers" were handled. Kaioshin is apparently able to use a ritual similar to the one from Old Kaioshin but it instead gives healing powers? Did Present Gohan had healing powers as well? What happened to them? I liked that Trunks was apparently able to heal Mai and Gowasu without knowing it trough, but still, it comes out from nowhere.

There are also different power scaling issues, for example Base Vegetto being able to cut MZamasu's arm, or FZamasu who was said to be weaker than Trunks knocking SSG Vegeta with a kick.

For all versions excluding the BoG film, Vegeta also has huge problems as a character, having reverted to some type of awful hybrid between his Cell and Boo versions, in a way that it almost looks like if he has some type of double personality.[/spoiler]

Half of what you mentioned aren't plotholes or retcons.
- The one year time limit for resurrection with the Earth Dragon Balls is for groups of people not for a one person. Freeza had every right to be brought back to life by Shenlong as he has been brought back to life in the by him before.
- I'll agree that the plot device that is time travel was not handled well in the Future Trunks in both mediums (anime and manga). Goku Black's origins in the anime are absolute nonsense in the anime. It's a literal time paradox that really shouldn't exist in the first place. In the manga, we have Bulma stating that time flows at the same rate in the past as it does in the future, which is impossible given how three years passed from when Future Trunks arrived to give Goku the heart medicine to when he came back and it only took eight month form the time machine to recharge its battery power.
- Goku Black not using the Kaioken is not a recton or plothole in the slightest. Just a personal grievance.
- Any sort of contradictions with battle powers and strength, in Super don't constitute to being a plothole given how Dragon Ball has already been very flexible with notion of how strong characters can be in any given scenario. It can perhaps qualify as retcon, but not a plothole.
- The Genki Damais nonsense. I won't dispute that. But half of Merged Zamasu face melting represents him getting damaged. That's neither a plothole or retcon.
- Future Trunks getting a different SSJ transformation based on rage and anger contradict nothing. Hell, we've already seen that happen.
- Future Trunks healing powers, as result of being a Kaioshin's apprentice, doesn't contradict anything. It just expands on what we already know.
- Again, your personal grievances, especially when it comes to characterisations, don't constitute to being a plothole or retcon.

[MajinMan]

Other than those two plotholes, I can't really think of another one. Oh wait, there's the stupid "Beerus killed all the dinosaurs" line. That makes complete sense.

I'm certain that was only in the BOG movie and not the BOG retelling in Super.

It was in Super as well. Beerus brought it up when Whis told him that the remaining Saiyans had relocated to Earth.

[Lord Beerus]

Other than those two plotholes, I can't really think of another one. Oh wait, there's the stupid "Beerus killed all the dinosaurs" line. That makes complete sense.

I'm certain that was only in the BOG movie and not the BOG retelling in Super.

It was in Super as well. Beerus brought it up when Whis told him that the remaining Saiyans had relocated to Earth.

It is? Huh. I would have thought that a tidbit like that would have been left out. Like how they didn't mention why the Pilaf Gang were children again and how the original Super Saiyan God didn't exist.

The whole "Beerus killing all the dinosaurs" because it's so minor given dinosaurs arse basically props in Dragon Ball to emphasis it modern/futuristic/ancient hybrid aesthetic.

Good Lord. I don't know what in the hell this was all about. Spoonerism and typos at its dirt fucking worst. My proof reading is terrible.

Allow me to correct myself:
I don't really care for the whole "Beerus killing all the dinosaurs" tidbit because it's so minor given dinosaurs are basically props in Dragon Ball to emphasis it modern/futuristic/ancient hybrid aesthetic.

[Lionel]

A lot of the stated grievances with the series are spot on. Personally, a more recent stunt that I take issue with is Katchin's more resilient cousin having inconsistent structural integrity. One moment it's requiring three Hakaishin to exert themselves just to induce some moderate environmental damage, and in the next every casual multiversal Joe is destroying or chipping away at it like it's paper mache. I would like to see the anime and manga's respective feats align more consistently with one another. We saw how Katchin was proving to be resistant enough to damage SSJB Goku and Vegeta. It even prompted Vegetto to shift positions so that he wouldn't take the brunt of the alloy as he was charging his attack. So how can an alloy that's claimed to be even stronger have such weak structural integrity?

[BlueBasilisk]

The worst plothole has to be the Goku Black paradox. How can Black exist if the only reason he exists is because he fought Goku? Black fought Goku, and Goku went to see Zamasu because of their fight, which in turn caused Zamasu to learn of Goku, and then steal his body after witnessing his strength first hand, then go to the future where Trunks is, then go back in time following Trunks's time stream, fight Goku, which creates himself.... pause. It doesn't make sense. And no, it isn't a loop because Trunks coming back stopped the "loop." His actions ended Zamasu's plans indefinitely. Another question is what was the starting point of all this? What caused it to start? Black only exists because of himself, so how did the very first Black come to be? Well, it's a plothole. It's a plothole hidden inside a complicated time travel theory, masquerading as a key plot point.

It is because Trunks' meddling also lead to the creation of a new timeline when Beerus killed present Zamasu. Goku Black is from that new timeline where Goku fought him but Whis and Beerus never went back to kill him for some reason. And when you see the flashback of Black Zamasu taking the time ring, it doesn't show how many green rings are in the box. The camera zooms in tight on the silver one that he takes. The creation of the new green ring wasn't revealed until the end of the arc. Black altered the past thanks to the special properties of the time ring and grandfathered himself into existence.

As for plot holes, it's not a major one but in the poacher episode Goku said King Kai couldn't die when he was already dead when the Buu saga established that you can.

[nato25]

This is a great topic with some good discussion.

Top 5 for me from me in no particular order.

- changing how time travel works thanks to Black.
- changing how potara work, really taking away the whole permanent side effect and thus removing a lot of tension from the Buu saga (I guess they thought it was permanent back then, but still)
- vegitos clothes being the same despite Vegeta having armour on.
- surprised no ones mentioned this one, Trunks hair! Even the style is different and i hate so much that they recoloured it in past scenes (and they couldnt even be consistent with that)
- Freeza's 1.3 million power level line (thank god super erased that)

[nato25]

Beerus ordering Freeza to destroy Planet Vegeta (The absolute worst retcon Super has introduced)

Yeah, thats a particularly egregious one.

The worst retcons in Super tend to be those that undermine previous story-arcs instead of adding to them.

Agreed. However I don't mind the Beerus telling Frieza tod destroy the Saiyan things. It doesn't take away from Frieza's personal reasons for destroying the planet, at least for me it doesn't.

He also never mentions it so he seems to just be outright ignoring Beerus order anyway as at that time planet Vegeta was so good for his business.

Beerus sleepy reputation might proceed him, so frieza was probably like meh i got plenty of time to do it, if i want.

[GodVegetto91]

Vermoud being only a God of Destruction for a little over 240.000 years. Participating in a universal game of hide and seek BEFORE Shin became Kaioshin. Even though one of the guidebooks clearly stated that Kaioshin is around 5 MILLION years old.
Plothole?
Seriously, this is the type of stuff that pissess me off. They can't even keep the characters ages consistent. Why is that so hard?

Vermoud is a clown, clowns (according to Stephen King's IT) are highly ancient beings, with IT having existed before the universe itself. I had great hopes for Vermoud being an "old" God of Destruction. It's even known that he will soon "retire" couple that with the fact that he looks a lot like IT, but now they want us to believe that 240.000 years is "old". No thanks. Not when you have characters previously stated to be millions of years old.
Hell, in episode 5 of Super we have Beerus flat out stating that he's lived for "hundreds of millions" of years, and look at him, still in the prime of his life.

I seriously don't understand the people behind all this.